No matter the way they fight. Given all his skillsets but without prepaeation time who is the strongest fighter?
Just pure humans, not enhanced at all
>>83029644
Karate Kid.
Shang Chi got some powers recently, right?
>>83029644
In Marvel, Shang-Chi,
Iron Fist has a slight edge because he knows more esoteric techniques (literally anyone can learn what Iron Fist can do if they go through the same training and succeed at the test) and can fight superhuman opponents better, but in terms of pure technical skill Shang-Chi is better and not exactly a physical pushover either.
In DC, the Karate Kid had martial arts skills that completely and utterly defy all logic even for a comic book (even characters in-universe note how bullshit his powers are), but he's part of the future of DC so some folks don't count him.
In modern day DC, Richard Dragon is basically Shang-Chi's counterpart and has the honor of beating Lady Shiva several times, once with severe disadvantages on his side.
>>83029675
He can duplicate himself now and infinite number of times. I give it about a week before Marvel forgets about it given their current record of "continuity" and "editing".
He didn't really need powers anyway; the guy's been kicking down radio towers and taking apart steel robots with his bare hands since his very first solo series.
>>83029644
The answer should be Karate Kid.
Master of not just all the terran martial arts but who knows how many alien combat styles.
Capable of going toe-to-toe with a pre-crisis kryptonian. Nobody else even comes close.
Then we had that Johns batwankathon.
Frank Castle. No superpowers, just pissed off and very skilled.
>>83029828
>>83029675
That seems like an incredibly random thing to foist off on Shang Chi, who in no way needs any such help being badass.
Did one of the writers are Marvel just watch Naruto for the first time and think "GOTTA GET ME SOME OF THAT!"
>>83029858
Fuck off, Frank's power is having more plot armor than Batman. His biggest skill is heroes with actual powers jobbing to him instead of capturing the guy in a second.
>>83029858
love this meme
>>83029858
Frank's very good, but he's not top tier. He's deeply out of his league whenever he takes on anyone who's a serious fighter whose skillset goes beyond "very good at being a non-superhuman criminal/soldier"
The fact that Daredevil beats him with some regularity is a strong indicator of that
>>83029850
Karate Kid was stalemated with Batman years before Johns ever wrote him.
He started getting Batwanked in the late 90's.
Johns doesn't like Batman at all actually.
>>83029828
Yeah, I just asked for clarification. Him getting powers is dumb, he never needed them.
>>83029874
Yeah, Shang-Chi's like Lady Shiva in that he's good enough in pure physical conditioning and skill to tangle with superhuman opponents fairly easily.
>>83029949
Case in point.
>>83029897
It helps that Frank kinda considers dealing with superheroes and their like a complete waste of time and usually goes well out of his way to avoid them entirely.
Kinda like how SHIELD rarely if ever is directly involved with superhero stuff and just kinda quietly does their spy shit in the backround while superheroes concern themselves with flashy soap opera battles in colorful costumes all the time.
If he had a choice Frank would avoid their notice forever and just keep killing regular crime syndicates and shit forever. He likes the "ground-up" approach.
I honestly prefer Iron Fist's vaguely magical bullshit to characters like Shang Chi or Karate Kid.
I can buy that a character can punch a train to smithereens if they are able to "channel their chi" in a way that's impossible in real life. Being able to do superhuman shit just because you "know martial arts" is...
I mean it's fine depending on the context, but considering those two are the only martial artists going around doing shit on that level, it's kind of corny. It'd be like if there was only ONE super scientist that got to build ridiculous plot-solving sci-fi gizmos.
>>83029992
SHIELD has been heavily involved with superhero stuff in the more recent years, Avengers being deployed by helicarrier and the Director of SHIELD being various superheroes instead of a spy or government agent.
>>83030005
I actually have a good argument FOR it but it honestly wouldn't make sense for most folks because it kinda understands an explanation on how that esoteric martial arts stuff is theoretically supposed to work in real life.
Suffice to say, Marvel actually could explain it in a way that's been internally consistent with what has been shown before and makes perfect sense with only one issue and a few lines of dialogue.
Mind you this is by complete fucking accident of course, a total coincidence at best, but they could still do it.
>>83030015
The thing is, they just act as Backround support. They just kinda are THERE, and there's lots of field agents you see doing nothing because they work as supporting cast in said books.
So either SHIELD has entire armies of field agents to do literally nothing or they actually are doing their job quietly and efficiently away from superheroes.
SHIELD has always been involved in superhero stuff (Steranko's Fury, Captain America's comic, Iron Man's really early stuff, etc) but they don't exist to act purely as a bureaucratic support to superheroes; they have actual function that most superheroes don't handle because it's sort of outside of their purview and area of speciality.
Black Widow's basically one of the few exceptions to this of course, because spying was literally her first vocation.
>>83030005
Iron Fist is weird in that he is explicitly using Superpowers, powers which can be stolen. Despite what literally every other piece of fiction will tell you, his chi abilities are NOT training. He got that from literally shoving his hands into a lava-hot dragon's heart.
That aside, in terms of pure strength be Iron Fist power probably takes him out of the league of most "kung fu" characters. Maybe all of them, if Karate Kid doesn't count, cause Iron Fist did shit like punching out a fucking dragon, destroy an entire Helicarrier, and hit Panther so hard it gave him brain damage (while wearing the full Vibranium suit).
>>83030100
Like I said here >>83030035, you could explain it with just a few lines of dialogue but Marvel won't bother and most people won't even get the explanation anyway so admittedly it's kind of pointless to do so.
>>83030100
But he had to fight the dragon in the first place to thrust his hands into its heart, right?
>>83030154
Yeah, you have to actually physically wrestle Shu-Lao before you can even get to his heart (it's how you get the brand on your chest and why Davos has only a partial one; he wussed out) and basically hug into unconsciousness.
THEN you get to go punch it's heart.
>>83030035
>>83030136
So what is it then?
>>83030186
Like I said, it's kinda pointless to explain because it's basically just headcanon and even if it were turned into actual canon shit is ignored so frequently these days that it might as well not have been said at all.
>>83029858
Yeah.
No.
How the fuck has no one said the obvious for DC yet?!
Like seriously, what the fuck is wrong with all you people.
>pic very fucking related.
>>83030397
Batman being able to beat everyone and anything is quickly becoming the Superman being able to do the same, if it hasn't already
It's a dull cliche
>>83030397
Batman isn't the best fighter
>>83029913
>No. You.
Genius level intellect with the rebuttals here.
>>83030516
It's literally the best possible rebuttal one can give.
>>83030397
Please, Bruce isn't even the best fighter in the Bat Family.
>Karate Kid
>Cassandra Cain
>Richard Dragon
>Lady Shiva
>Bronze Tiger
>Constantine Drakon
>Connor Hawke
>Batman
>>83030451
Well, OP said, "no matter the way they fight" it hasn't to be martial arts only so if their way of fighting is to use swords, lucha libre or sove a boomerang in the ass they would qualify too. And considering that Batman could be considered one of the best fighters wihout doubt.
>>83030154
The heart isn't in the dragon. You have to fight it, because the dragon will stop you.
>>83030581
>And considering that Batman could be considered one of the best fighters wihout doubt.
There is literally a list of people >>83030575 who could whip Batman's ass.
>>83030397
Because people in here wanna show they have unique opinions. This why never pick the obviosuly right answer
>>83030451
>>83030428
>>83030575
Case in point
>>83030575
>>Karate Kid
>>Cassandra Cain
>>Richard Dragon
>>Lady Shiva
>>Bronze Tiger
>>Constantine Drakon
>>Connor Hawke
I think Batman could beat any of those in a fight, unless we go with "he can only fight them face to face at short range". Batman primary fighting style is not hand to hand combat, is wits (and plot armor)
>>83030681
Since we are on the subject I heard a different Orgin story for Conan which was;
He and 100 people become slave and started to push a windmill after year past 99 of them died and only Conan was the one who push it
Can anyone confirme?
>>83029675
>>83029806
Does Karate Kid count as a "human character"? He's pretty much meta level.
>>83030727
So what you're saying is that Batman could beat them all in a fight, unless he actually tries to fight them.
>>83030575
Bronze Tiger hasn't been top fighter for a long time now. Definitely not in the Nu52.
>>83030772
He's baseline human but I feel like magic space karate should disqualify him.
>>83030575
Batman has a win over the majority of these people and some of them haven't even fought him post crisis or in the new 52
>>83030575
>Karate Kid
Yeah, okay
>Cassandra Cain
Not anymore
>Richard Dragon
Not sure what his current status is, haven't read the Green Arrow issues with him
>Lady Shiva
Yeah, okay
>Bronze Tiger
Not anymore
>Constantine Drakon
Once agan, not sure he exists
>Connor Hawke
Definitely doesn't exist anymore
>>83030575
>Connor Hawke
I will never accept this in any continuity.
>>83030837
>>Lady Shiva
>Yeah, okay
Can she really be called the best after jobbing in the New 52?
>>83030866
To be honest, I haven't read many of her new appearances. Did they nerf her too?
>>83030875
I think she's jobbed a few other times, but this one always sticks out to me.
>>83030793
Depends on your definition of what a fight is. If its a violent conflict between the two characters without given rules definetively he can beat all them in a fight. If you consider a fight is only a trade of punches and kicks then it is another story.
>>83031041
You will notice that, with the exception of that one idiot posting Frank Castle, these are all hand-to-hand characters. It is absolutely a trade of punches, kicks, and grapples.
>>83030902
Now that's just embarrassing for everyone involved. Also, is the Bronze Tiger literally a tiger in this?
>>83031069
>>83029644
>Given all his skillsets
>>83030748
That was a movie. And Conan was able to beat Captain America in one on one combat
>>83030748
Book/comic Conan's origin is literally just growing up in a warrior tribe, then fucking off for some booty, in all senses of the word. He was never a slave. Peak human, probably, because Hyborian life is that hard.
>>83029889
>more plot armor than Batman
Come on, Batman has contingency plans out the ass for beating the Justice League, Frank lost his first and only fight with the Avengers.if you don't get why it was drawn out, you should quit fiction all together.
>>83029913
Isn't this from Mark Waid's The Brave and the Bold run?
Also, what's some recommended reading for Karate Kid?
>>83031310
>no preparation time
Bats loses
>>83030397
>How the fuck has no one said the obvious for DC yet?!
not
>What, are you dense? Are you retarded or something?
you fucked up
>>83030837
>>83030866
>the New 52: Fuck You for Having Enjoyed Us Throughout the Years
>>83029675
This.
>>83031901
Well, to be fair, some of these guys started jobbing long before the Nu52.
>>83030727
>>>Karate Kid
>>83030199
If you're still aorund, share the headcanon, I would like to know it too.
>>83029889
>More plot armour than Batman
>>83032113
>>83031628
Batman also has the superpower of RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY, the greatest superpower of all.
Frank is just an angry old war veteran who shoots guns because "muh family are dead" and "muh eternal war muthafucka"
>>83032501
>Frank is just an angry old war veteran who shoots guns because "muh family are dead" and "muh eternal war muthafucka"
How the fuck hasn't Frank been captured and apprehended by the police yet?
>>83031177
Yes, although it's through some magical tiger medallion (or maybe a belt buckle), and he was human in his latest appearance in Deathstroke so he can take it off.
>>83030397
Batman is jack of all trades, master of none.
He's shown to be proficient in numerous subjects but is rarely the best in the world at them.
>>83033449
The only exception is probably his aptitude at being a detective and his deductive reasoning.
Has anyone ever been on the same level as him as a detective?
>>83033561
There was one man...
>>83030581
By that logic Dr Doom is the best 'fighter' in Marvel since his suit is a weapon and he has beaten nearly everyone at some point. OP is obviously talking about skill, which would put him at a more reasonable 6-7th in most likelihood.
>>83031177
>>83033316
He's human in Grayson as well.
>>83033743
Maybe it's a schedule thing. On Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays andCaturdays, he's a cat. Rest of the week he's a dude.
>>83033781
I want an all-cat team-up. Bronze Tiger, Catwoman, Catman and Cheetah chilling together. Do Tony and Chesire count? I'd add them as well.
>>83034307
>Tony
Literally who?
>>83034384
>not reading Grayson
>>83029889
At least Punisher mostly just takes out normal mobs and gangs, even if he is killing a hundred armed professionals at once using nothing but a knife. They keep him fairly grounded.
>>83030100
When did iron fist give black panther brain damage?
Not calling you out for being wrong, I just really want to read it.
Dragon is best master of wheelchair fu!
What about Midnighter with his computer brain?
>>83034633
He's meta, we're talking about "normal" humans
Parody Punisher is pretty much the strongest baseline. He ALWAYS make sures to anti ambush, and always have a good idea on what to actually use.
Max Punisher and Normal Punisher is a lot weaker after all.
The next one after that is.... eh? I don't really know.
>>83033220
Same reason he didn't die the first night he decided to go after the outfit.
>>83030397
Because Batman isn't "the most skilled".
Depending on what the continuity he can be anything from the Pet Dog in the Justice League, to a extremely augmented metahuman because he keeps getting training from fellow League members.
He is often a lot like Karate Kid: He has a high power level from augmented space super karate, but generally isn't a good fighter.
>>83032023
Until which point we consider mistic martial arts not a super power?
I mean, if mistic tier level of martial arts count as simply martial arts then Dr.Strange could also qualify for this thread since he is human that uses mistic arts.
>>83033651
Well that's a given, m8.
>>83034800
Bullshit magic by another name
>projectiles
>magic vibrations that shake the inside of shit hit harder than the outside/penetrate through shit
Not superpowers
>enhanced physical abilities
I mean taking strength and agility to a fictional extreme is one thing, whereas creating inhuman in nature abilities is another. Chi IS technically a real thing based in biorhythm manipulation after all, but only when you aren't firing off kamehamehas.
inb4
>Chi IS technically a real thing
>>83029889
Reminder that the Shocker kicked Frank's ass after Frank got the drop on him.
>>83029889
With Frank it actually makes sense though since he has the rare protagonist role of being the aggressor, he decides who he wants to kill and then plans out for it, which is perfectly possible and what you'd do in real life.
Unlike Batman who is unrealistically intelligent and time efficient and simply has a plan for every possible occurrence, so when he gets sucked into an adventure or attacked by a villain he just so happens to have the cure for ebola hidden in his boot.
Frank also has the benefit of just fucking shooting people unlike most comic characters rather than coming up with some elaborate scheme to trap them.
>>83035392
>Unlike Batman who is unrealistically intelligent and time efficient and simply has a plan for every possible occurrence, so when he gets sucked into an adventure or attacked by a villain he just so happens to have the cure for ebola hidden in his boot.
Stop believing in memes
>>83033561
Tim Drake.
>>83035845
He came close, but then Nu52 happened.
