Give me one reason why house arrest wasn't the best option to keep things under control.
>>82777278
Captain America Civil War
>>82777278
It was
>>82777442
This.
Black Widow was the rightest character
>>82780088
>Tony was right about the Accords, Steve was right about Bucky
correct
>>82777278
because you are taking away peoples rights even though they have gone out of their way to save the planet.
>>82780195
Wanda helped create Ultron, but she also helped stopped him, so she deserves to get off scot-free?
Just like that? Zero punishment, accountability, reprimands?
>>82780134
Doesn't mean that he has to act like a terrorist about the whole thing.
''Ant-man, Hawkeye, I know that you want to live with your families and shit, but how about being criminals for the rest of your lives?''
>>82780195
>because you are taking away peoples rights even though they have gone out of their way to save the planet.
Thats the argument team steve makes. The problem is that this is morally the right way of thinking but it's not the best option for keeping things under control. being morally right and doing the best thing to keep things under control is the divide on the whole movie
>>82780134
>, Steve was right about Bucky
And everything could had been solved if steve recorded a video calling bucky to surrender or steve arresting bucky and not leaving his side.
>>82780273
Whatever happened to her visions? How about giving Tony and Cap the same vision so they solve things?
>>82780332
Whedon gave her too many varied powers. Russos scaled her back.
>>82777278
Confining her to the Avengers compound only creates a future issue where she acts out. The smarter option would have been to have Vision be her caretaker, allowing her to leave under his supervision
>>82780273
>Just like that? Zero punishment, accountability, reprimands?
She's dedicating her life to saving lives with her powers.Better use of them there than to have them waste away in a prison. Also, we talk about accountability and reprimands and Stark was a war lord. She was a product of that.
>>82780286
I get things need to be kept under control but how is some incompetent government gonna control people that have saved their asses twice? Oh people have died as an aftermath of them trying to save the world? Let's not forget these governments have taken part in wars they've waged that have also ruined lives.
>>82777278
Because you shouldn't take away someone's rights because people are afraid of them. If someone throws a grenade at you, and you throw it out of range as far as you can but people still get hurt - even though they would have originally - how are you at fault?
Ultron was right about one thing - Tony confuses peace with quiet.
>>82780353
>Russos scaled her back.
Hacks, they erase shit instead of writing around it.
>>82780406
She also very recently blew up a lot of people in Nigeria.
Nobody cares if she saved X amount of people on the ground. Her direct actions lead to X amount of people dying in the building.
>>82780507
>Because you shouldn't take away someone's rights
Its not like it was going to be in house arrest for the rest of her life.
Then she goes from being friends with Vision to throwing him throught like 30 floors, all it took was Hawkeye telling her a couple of things.
Tony was a 100% right about her being dangerous.
>>82780548
>she blew up
Crossbones blew up*
Stop with this bullshit
>>82780406
This. It's not like she's under house arrest because she used her powers for herself, for selfish reasons. She literally has dedicated her life to helping people. Her life is community service.
>>82780273
They actually considered Abomination above Hulk to join the Avengers.
According to the MCU comics.
>>82780514
You're brainwashing two people with conflicting ideologies to stop fighting? Any compromise reached would have one side unhappy. How solid a foundation is an agreement reached under the influence?
>>82780617
>her direct influence
Learn to read.
>>82780548
Wasn't her it was Crossbones going suicide bomb.
>>82780548
>>82780507
If I throw a grenade at you in a crowd of people and you throw it as far as you can, and people still get hurt, did you kill those people or did I?
>>82780611
ALL OF THE AVENGERS ARE DANGEROUS! A gun is dangerous. A pencil is dangerous. It's about how you use what you have, and yes she did that to Vision because she knew he could take it. The dude is covered in Vibranium. She did what she could to buy him time, and I bet he didn't feel a thing.
>>82780673
Her inaction would've lead to as many people being blown up, I don't get what you are trying to say friendo.
"Hey you tried to stop this suicide bomber but you failed, it's your fault that he blew up!"
Commit sudoku
>>82780763
You chose to throw the grenade.
>>82780548
>people died because of you saved the day and countless other lives
>we saved the day thou
>but a small amount of people died
This bugged me everytime they brought up the casualties.
>>82780836
Are the families of the dead just supposed to be happy that the day is saved?
>>82780804
And who should be punished in that situation?
>>82780804
So what you are saying is that Scarlet Witch is innocent?
>>82780836
I think the problem was no one gave much care that those people died.
>>82780856
No they can be mad all they want but don't blame the people that stopped the terrorists stealing a bio-hazardous material to kill even more people with.
Did the news reports say if the public blamed Wanda for not throwing Crossbones further away?
If so, what happens if she encounters an angry mob outside the compound?
>>82780863
The original person started the incident and you did reduce the total amount of human suffering. But your direct actions did result in some people getting hurt, you would need to be held accountable for that. I'm not a judge, I wouldn't know what specific punishment to prescribe. But to allow you to continue chucking grenades unhindered isn't alright.
>>82780896
That's fair but they don't intend to put those people in danger, it's just bullshit to have the whole argument people died well your saving even more. I know nobody likes the idea but the lives of the many.
>>82781045
Riots
>>82777278
>>82780611
Some people on this thread are either trolling or have no concept of what civil rights are.
You don't declare a person that is a POTENTIAL threat as guilty of the crimes they could POSSIBLY commit, because there is literally nobody on Earth that isn't potentially a threat somehow.
When you use that slippery slope logic to justify taking away someone's freedoms all you've done is justify to yourself that there be no guaranteed freedoms at all, for anybody.
That is not how you defend anything.
Cap's not the only person who believes in the values America has promised to stand for.
>>82780273
If that's the fucking case why is Tony walking about?
>>82781352
Who already made up their mind on the Accords before even discussing it with the team?
Government wanted to turn her into a weapon, and because she wasn't a U.S. and Sokovia not giving a fuck about her, they probably would've gotten away with it. You saw they already had power dampeners ready for her.
Look at it this way, Tony didn't put her under house arrest, put her next to Vision. There's no fucking way the government is going to try and fuck with both of them.
>>82781132
That's a shit opinion.
If your actions put less people in danger than doing nothing than you shouldn't get punished for it.
So do the avengers consist of just Tony and the vision now?
There's no way Tony would put Peter in danger against a bigger threat.
>>82781398
Am I saying you get thrown in the Raft for life with no chance of bail?
I'm saying if you do something and the side effect of that something results in people getting hurt, you need to answer for that in SOME WAY.
HOW IS THAT an unreasonable opinion?
>>82781504
And Rhodey with his robot legs
>>82781347
She was guilty of crimes during Age of Ultron.
>>82780836
Would have loved it if that logic got thrown back in Ross' face.
>Guess that means America will never go to war with anyone ever again.
>War is necessary sometimes.
>Yeah but civilians get killed in the crossfire, as a result of missed or wrong targets, and there's friendly fire. Clearly the American military can't be trusted to act anywhere without Avengers oversight.
>>82781510
Why would you punish the people who saved the day because there was collateral damage? All there actions saved far more people and you want to punish them cause some ass hole blew them self up?
>>82781732
To be fair ultron was 100% the avengers fault and alot of people died from that.
>>82780273
>Wanda helped create Ultron
Letting Tony inevitably fuck himself over is hardly "helping create ultron"
Ultron existed because as soon as tony got his hands on the scepter, he picked it apart, and tried to use it as a fucking weapon.
>>82780273
Tony actually DID make Ultron, but also helped stop him. Why isn't he under house arrest?
>>82780514
first off, the moral implications of fucking with people's minds is why she didn't in Civil War.
secondly, she doesn't chose what they see. She just induces an emotional vision. In AoU she just pulled people's fears out.
She can't create an imaginary scenario and then make everyone see it.
>>82780669
This was referenced in one of the MCU one-shots.
>>82781897
The 1% get away with everything
>>82780548
Anon, did you see the size of that explosion? Did you see how crowded the area was on the ground?
A dozen people died when she sent Crossbones in the area. MANY more would've died if she didn't move the explosion, including many of the Avengers.
>>82781897
He's the one making the decisions, and he's the world's biggest hypocrite.
>>82777278
Because Tony went behind her back about it instead of talking to her about it calmly.
>>82782070
A dozen Wakandans died. They didn't specific how many others.
>>82782101
Tony's an asshole causing alot of the problems recently and I was upset he kinda got of easy at the end of this movie.
>>82782108
They said 11 people died, total.
>>82782270
Tony was the one with the law on his side and *Steve* doesn't kill his friends. That was the best possible punishment.
>>82780134
Tony was right about the idea, the execution is where he fucked up. That and trusting Ross, ever
>>82782356
>Nigeria: mass death in military detention
Submitted by Jurist on Thu, 05/12/2016 - 17:29Africa Theater Boko Haram Nigeria
Nearly 150 individuals, including 11 children, have died this year in Nigeria's military detention barracks, Amnesty International (AI) reported May 11. According to the report, the Giwa detention barracks in Maiduguri holds around 1,200 people, many of whom were arbitrarily detained and are being held without evidence. The detainees are allegedly housed in dirty, overcrowded cells and often face with starvation and dehydration. AI claims the overcrowding is "a consequence of a system of arbitrary mass arrest and detention" in the government's fight against Boko Haram. Netsanet Belay, AI's research and advocacy director for Africa, called for an immediate closure of the Giwa barracks. Nigeria's military spokesman Rabe Abubakar rebutted the report, stating that Nigeria has made improvements to the barracks, and the reported conditions are overstated.
kek
>>82781822
The only ones involved in creating Ultron were Tony, Bruce and Wanda
It wasnt Wandas fault. At no point in any part of the MCU is she a "weapon of mass destruction"
Being honest, her blaming was the weakest part of the movie. It just didnt make sense and I felt it was only used to paint Stark as an asshole.
>>82780134
>>82782427
It's not the execution, when there's rules like that in place the decisions are out of the Avenger's hands altogether, it wouldn't even matter if Tony was acting like a saint insteed of an asshat because Bucky wasn't going to be getting a trial, remember?
>>82780896
Yeah they did, Cap went into the blown up building to pull survivors out
>>82780514
Actually, Wanda only seemed to be able to give people psychic hallucinations at close ranges, almost touching in fact.
When fighting her teammates they'd know not to get that close
>>82777278
You know what's funny?
People are all like "if she can drop Vision through thirty floors of concrete why doesn't she do more shit like that", when all that shows is that they don't read comic books at all.
She took control of Vision's body and activated his density-shifting power to make him hyper massed-out (which is why he was glowing the characteristic orange color of his gem rather then the scarlet of her telekinesis), basically turning his own powers against him temporarily.
She knew he wouldn't be hurt because the thing she did to remove him also made him invulnerable, so she KNEW all she was doing was temporarily removing him from the area.
>>82780286
I think a greater problem is that the guy who seems to be in direct control of the process isn't ACTUALLY the United Nations but is Thunderbolt Fucking Ross, who is easily the LEAST objective person on the entire planet when it comes to superbeings as well as hugely judgement-impaired and created a supervillain himself through negligence and not caring about the consequences of what he did.
At NO point while giving orders to the Avengers does he go through the United Nations Security Council or even pretend to go about making calls to them. He just gives orders.
>>82781132
Superheros fighting interdimensional/galactic threats and ultra terrorism should be held to higher standards than the governments imposing those standards while holding themselves exempt.
Fuck you.
>avengers meet with a colonel
>it's motherfucking Ross
>wtf is this asshole doing here?
>why are they even entertaining an audience with this colossal fuck
>suddenly Black Widow is on board
FUCK YOU
>>82782693
Stark didn't actually blame her for anything (he doesn't even show any actual animosity to her at any point on the movie), it was just that everyone ELSE did and Stark was trying to keep everyone else from freaking out.
It was basically a hysteria brought on by an accident and people desperately needing somewhat to blame and be held responsible who wasn't already dead.
People are irresponsible asshats when they're scared and shocked, and history has shown an unfathomable number of times that when they want to blame someone they will FIND someone to blame even if it wasn't their fault.
When people get like that they don't want justice, because justice is hard, complicated, long-process, and not immediately satisfying to most, but stringing up a single person and saying it's all their fault IS satisfying because it helps them thing the problem is immediately solved forever.
Why did she throw him into a building? Also her mind control thing seems too op to use ever again
Because she needed Vision to move.
>>82783262
I think Widow was only onboard because she knew it was going to happen anyway and she DIDN'T want Ross to have full control of the process.
Widow may not be the smartest, but she's always that fastest on the uptake when it comes to identifying problems of a political nature because that's basically been her job for some time now.
She KNEW one way or another people we going to make demands and that the alternative was to fight the entire world. She adapted to changing situations because that's kinda what she does.
>>82783262
This. How no one pointed out what an asshat he is in universe and how hypocrital it is that he of all people says they should be accountable for their actions when he wasn't after the whole Abomination debacle.
>>82783328
She didn't. Watch the movie again.
She threw him LITERALLY straight up, in a panicked moment, but the blast explosion was larger then she thought.
She basically did the superpowered equivalent of throwing herself on a grenade when it landed only discover that the grenade was too big for her body to actually dampen the blast.
>>82780195
When you commit crimes, you don't have the right to not be arrested.
>>82783409
You gotta wonder how he even got to be Secretary of Defense in the first place.
>"Who can we trust? Seems like every fucking body else is HYDRA and the only guys we DO trust have zero experience at superhuman stuff which is the big issue right now."
>"I guess there's Ross? He's got four stars and was in charge of that shitty Pentagon program that didn't amount to much."
>"Is Ross ACTUALLY the best we got?"
>"No, the best we got turned out to be an agent of HYDRA. Ross is a fucking dinosaur, but he's not HYDRA."
>"Ugh. I guess he gets the job."
>>82783262
Widow, Tony, and Vision are the folks who think ten moves ahead, and what they see coming if this plays out wrong scares them.
Superficially, it's Steve who seems to be letting emotion cloud his judgement but in reality he's the one ignoring emotion and acting on principle.
And Steve can only do that because he's the guy who is willing to and has already died for those principles.
>>82777278
House arrest without telling her about it was a horrific error. It shows a complete lack of trust and generated the exact rebellion Tony was trying to avoid.
>>82783187
Ross isn't in control. It was specifically said that the Avengers would answer to the UN.
>>82783409
The last Secretary of Defense was Robert Redford. Remember who he worked for?
When people make a mistake they tend to run screaming in the opposite direction even if the farthest directon from a mistake is an equally stupid plan.
We're just shit at moderation as a species I guess.
>>82783488
Of course you think that. You're not too big to fail.
>>82783512
Tony looks ten moves in the future but acts without telling people the first five moves.
>>82783564
Which would be okay except we see no evidence of that.
When he imprisons the rogue Avengers and tells Tony that Steve is full of shit, he DOESN'T call the UN Security Council even though it's theoretically not his call. He just ignores him and there's no consequences for his action at all.
Ross is basically MCU's version of Gyrich during the 70's, only instead of the US government being the obstinate and obstructive dickhead it's the UN....at least in theory because he never seems to call them.
>>82780507
>Because you shouldn't take away someone's rights because people are afraid of them.
See:
>>82783488
Wanda would have been thrown in African prison if she didn't have guys like Tony pulling strings.
>>82783512
>Widow, Tony, and Vision are the folks who think ten moves ahead, and what they see coming if this plays out wrong scares them.
Nope. That's not it.
Widow signed because she knows she can always disappear later if she doesn't like what the Accords want her to do. Visio signed because his policy is to act non-threatening which means he will sign ANYTHING that humans tell him to sign. And even TONY said that he only signed because he intend to send lawyers to change the rules later, and that the Accords as it currently is, is useless and unworkable. None of these three actually truly think the Accords, the thick book, was actually suppose to be good for anybody. The only person who thinks that is Warmachine, who is a current government employee who doesn't work independently anyway.
The Accords is KNOWN to be a half-baked and non-0functioning set of rules. This is why Ross took control of the entire thing at the end, because the UN is too weak and the American Secretary of State ended up able to steal political power.
>>82782693
>It wasnt Wandas fault. At no point in any part of the MCU is she a "weapon of mass destruction"
Yeah, that city in South Africa just destroyed itself.
>>82783565
That's actually a truth in political theory: it's the reason the U.S. tends to swing from conservative and liberal presidencies every decade. The House and Senate do the same on different timetables.
>>82777278
Because it was against her will.
Instead of "Wanda, we think it might be best if you laid low for a bit until this blows over. We know we can't keep you here, but know that we just want you to be safe", it was "Vision is here to keep you in your room until Iron Man says you're allowed to join the outside world."
>>82781897
Because he's cooperating with the Accords.
>>82782678
Who are all Avengers.
>>82777278
Cap referred to what they're doing as a job. So my question remains who in the hell is paying them?
>>82783785
Tony.
>>82783782
You said it was 100% The Avengers fault, there are more Avengers to account for who weren't involved with making Ultron...
>>82777278
Because Stan Lee said so.
Seriously, Captain America was portrayed as an unbearable cunt with zero ability to reason or think ahead.
>>82783825
Firstly, I wasn't the anon who said that.
Secondly, saying "Ultron was 100% the Avengers fault" is correct. Ultron was not caused by the entire Avengers team, but he was still entirely caused by the Avengers.
>>82783676
Tony was only doing it to help easy is mind.
Steve was worried that it would limit or miss use their abilities to actually save people.
>>82783676
This is what I was seeing too.
Wanda and Tony were getting onboard because they wanted to ensure Ross didn't take control of the accords because the UN Security Council is toothless as hell most days (hope you don't want to save people in the Middle East because Russia will veto! And China has lots of interests in Africa and distrusts American-anything, so Africa is out too!) and because they know they can change it.
Arguing over "who was right" is just completely missing the point of the film, that BOTH of them were right and that Tony's solution was correct but the situation was escalated beyond their control due to Zemo. In fact if Zemo HADN'T blown up the United Nations Peace Conference the entire situation could be resolved.
Zemo KNEW that when pushed everyone involved would act irrationally and the situation would spiral out of control. Even once they caught Bucky Tony likely could pull enough strings to get Cap released, but then Zemo escalated it AGAIN, which finally stopped the entire process from being peacefully resolved.
It's like people watch this film and only see the parts they want to see.
>>82777278
Unjust imprisonment without trial is a violation of human rights.
If you're going to lock her up for fear of what she's done, charge her first.
If you're scared of what she might do, then keep and eye on her, then arrest her when she steps out of line.
>>82783813
Tony is the sole benefactor of the avengers and all of their exploits?
Jesus...
>>82777278
Because she can't make paprikash under house arrest
PAPRIKASH ANON
It's Tony's fault for not simply going up to Wanda and being all "look, shit's a mess right now and you're not a legal citizen so it would be easy for them to nail you. Just lay low in the compound until things blow over a bit". Instead, he just told Vision to stop her from leaving.
>>82783866
>Unjust imprisonment without trial is a violation of human rights.
Inprisonment of a criminal before a trial is normal procedure.
>If you're scared of what she might do, then keep and eye on her, then arrest her when she steps out of line.
She already stepped out of line by killing people in Africa twice, on purpose the first time.
>>82783897
First legitimate reason in this thread.
>>82783867
What's the biggest plot convince in comics?
>magic
>speedforce
>pym particles
>tony's wallet
>>82783732
Yeah, the US in particular is fucking awful at moderation.
I once heard us described as the "most overweight country in the world, in every physical and philosophical sense there is", and examining our history I have a hard time disagreeing with it.
>>82783928
Speedforce, easily. Pym particles and Tony's wallet have clearly laid-out abilities.
>>82783928
Contrivance.
And it's definitely Tony's wallet. Thing is fucking bottomless.
>>82783904
I think he honestly was kinda embarrassed about it.
Or maybe doing that thing where he assumes because he's intelligent that he therefore has the soundest judgement, even when demonstratably this has never been true.
>>82783975
Tony has lost access to his fortune REPEATEDLY (once every decade since the 1970's, sometimes even twice) and always manages to rebuild it again from nothing somehow to it's previous seemingly unlimited levels.
>>82777278
Because the reason they put her under house arrest was bullshit? A guy detonated a bomb, she tried to contain it, and when she realized she couldn't she tried to move it. Away from a huge crowd of people. Something NO ONE brings up by the way. Not just because for sake of the movie we were there in a way. In any footage they show of the incident there is clearly more than 11 people standing around screaming and reacting to the explosion above. The only purpose it serves is to make it look like someone is being punished in someway.
If you wanted to bring up charges of terrorism or her terrorist past or previous affiliations FINE, she shouldn't have been on the team to begin with. Or she should have spent some time in jail before joining the team and "turning her life around". You don't punish people because you feel like they got off to lite last time. And she wasn't the one at fault this time.
>>82780763
>I bet he didn't feel a thing.
Betrayal doesn't have to hurt to hurt. She attacked him with her powers instead of her words. (a lot of "heroes" do this) It's their punch first, think later style of doing things that leave all the corpses in their wake.
>Hey, I'm the only guy in the room who doesn't have superpowers, and let me tell you: You guys scare me. What if you do decide to go down there, taking care of whoever you think is guilty? Who could stop you? Me?
>>82783928
If you combined the intelligence, skill, finances and abilities of Tony Stark, Flash, Ant-Man and Dr. Strange... would he be strong enough to beat Superman?
>>82784107
What episode? I regret not watching JLU while I was a kid.
>>82783914
She was neither told she was under arrest pending trial, nor was she read her rights. Nor was that the intent of the detention.
>>82784029
Tony was keeping her under house arrest, not as punishment for Nigera or anything else, but to keep her from escalating the situation and making things worse for everyone. Like she did 10 minutes later.
>>82784029
>Because the reason they put her under house arrest was bullshit?
We all saw exactly what happened. You know who didn't? The Wakandans. The UN. The public at large.
If you're involved in an incident with dozens of fatalities you *have* to be investigated. Someone *else* needs to clear you. You don't get to make that decision yourself.
>>82784029
>You don't punish people because you feel like they got off to lite last time. And she wasn't the one at fault this time.
The fucked up thing is, people do this all the time in real life. Outrage is never a very good mindset to make rational decisions, but outrage is also seemingly the only time everyone can be motivated to make decisions like that at all.
That would be why every other political ad you've seen since '00 rolled around isn't about finding solutions but is about how everything everyone does is WRONG and they're SUPER WRONG and how their WRONGness means you're RIGHT if you just PUNISH THEM NOW by VOTING FOR INSERT PERSON NAME.
>>82784129
Strange could be Superman by himself.
So could Flash.
>>82784027
He was said to be cash poor when he created his latest Avengers team (the one with kid Nova) but was still driving a flying car.
Who is he kidding when he pleads poverty?
>>82782698
Tony putting Ross on hold and doing shit behind his back was basically him saying, we sign the accords to get public trust back, but we can still operate to a little degree on our own if we're careful about it. And obviously he was trying to keep Wanda out of the Raft by making her as comfortable as possible in the Avengers mansion.
>>82784145
Forget which exactly, somewhere in Season 2.
Which honestly handled the whole debate fantastically.
>>82777278
It was the best option. The problem was not telling her this and hoping they could just go as long as they could without addressing it.
If they brought it up to here, even if she didn't really agree with it she would at least understand with all that was going on. Yet they kept her in the dark and she found out herself when trying to run to the store.
>>82783865
>Arguing over "who was right" is just completely missing the point of the film, that BOTH of them were right and that Tony's solution was correct but the situation was escalated beyond their control due to Zemo. In fact if Zemo HADN'T blown up the United Nations Peace Conference the entire situation could be resolved.
But why do you think it could be resolved? Tony made the grave mistake thinking that he could get away with breaking the Accords after signing it. He didn't count on Ross, who is NOT Toothless, holding Tony to his signature. The UN is faceless and ineffective, but not individuals like Ross who does have actual power. Tony was wrong not because of Zemo, but because of Ross. Ross did what Tony was saying he would do himself, taking control of the Accords away from the UN. And Tony was powerless against Ross.
>>82784156
No, the detention was her friend keeping her there instead of getting thrown in an African prison.
>>82784210
Poverty means something different for Tony then it does for the rest of us.
Also, he might still have all the shit he owned BEFORE "poverty", which is a whole lot of shit.
>>82783755
>my arrogant actions caused the destruction of a whole city and almost brought the end of humanity?
>signing an agreement makes it ok
>>82784107
Isn't that whatthe governmentdid withBucky? And from what I've seen from The Avengers, AoU and Civil War, the Avengers don't chase after criminals who were MAYBE guilty - they go after criminals CURRENTLY are causing harm to others. Like Loki, Ultron, Hydra and Crossbones. They didn't do anything to the terrorists in Africa until they made the first move.
>>82784246
Which is also illegal.
>>82784162
Personally I don't see that as good reason to place someone under house arrest. It's the easy/lazy option. It's a kid getting beat up in high school and just because he throws a punch defending himself he's considered as have taken part in the fight and so receives the same punishment as the instigator.
>>82784183
>>You don't punish people because you feel like they got off to lite last time. And she wasn't the one at fault this time.
There is an aspect of there being an additional feeling of betrayal when you give someone a second chance and they use that opportunity to drop an android through the floor of your multi-million dollar estate.
She did that. She completely fucked up Tony's house. She didn't own that and has no way to pay for nor repair the damage she caused.
>>82783644
>Which would be okay except we see no evidence of that.
Aside from Ross and other repeatedly saying they'd be under the jurisdiction of the UN. Oh, and that UN meeting that they were having when the bomb went off.
They couldn't have pounded it into peoples' heads any harder.
>>82784173
Her involvement was in it's entirely an effort to prevent that tragedy.
Would a firefighter be placed under house arrest for failing to extinguish a fire?
Would a cop be arrested for not stopping a drunk driver from crashing into innocents?
>>82784274
>Which is also illegal.
Tony was a signatory of the accords, which might have ceded him military style rights to command other who also signed. They were, possibly, under military rules and she was confined to barracks and not put under house arrest. That shit happens about a dozen times a day.
>>82784245
Because the UN (the guys who were supposed to be in charge) had been blown up not five minutes earlier.
Also, Tony STILL strongly contested against Ross even while following his orders, because ultimately Ross has to either put up with it or fire them/imprison them and then give the world zero response against the kind of stuff that the Avengers are the only guys equipped to actually stop.
That's what ended up happening in the comics too in the Henry Gyrich plotline (which this resembles much more then Civil War); Cap just said "well go fuck yourself; if you fire us we WON'T have to save New York from Kang and he WILL take over the world, except you know we'll probably just DO IT ANYWAY and you'll look even more impotent then before".
All they need to do is say "nah, go fuck yourselves. Fight the supervillains on your own next time" and Ross has to either concede or look like a fucking idiot when they go and save the world WITHOUT his permission anyway.
>>82781548
>and rhodey with his robot legs
no, pls tell me this isn't happening.
>war machine
>a cripple
on the other hand, this plot development does help add more diversity to the avengers lineup. meh. i can accept it if that's the case.
>>82784266
Govt can't act unilaterally and has limits on authority.
A lot of people arguing for Team Cap seem to think it's an argument over who's more trustworthy, which it absolutely is not. It's about not giving ANYONE that kind of power.
>>82784325
>She completely fucked up Tony's house. She didn't own that and has no way to pay for nor repair the damage she caused.
THAT MONSTER. She was the true villain of Civil War. I don't know how they expect Thanos to follow that kind of wanton destruction.
>>82784351
If a cop threw a live grenade away from civilians but ended up blowing up some other civilians as a result, they would absolutely be tried for it.
>>82784389
Anyone arguing over "who's right" is the kind of face-fucked puss-filled zit of a human being who thought that the actual Civil War comic book was a good story.
The point of the film is that both were flawed, both made mistakes, and that Zemo played them both like a fiddle and made things worse.
>>82784367
Unless the MCU is some kind of dystopia, the UN has no right to violate the ICCPR.
>>82784373
War Machine Mk IV prototype
>>82784470
Rhodey getting crippled is something that happened in the comics too.
It's less of a problem where the kind of super-science that can create cyborgs exists.
>>82784351
>Her involvement was in it's entirely an effort to prevent that tragedy.
Doesn't matter what her intentions were. That doesn't protect her from answering questions about her involvement in all those deaths,
>Would a firefighter be placed under house arrest for failing to extinguish a fire?
If a firefighter accidentally burned another house down in an attempt to put out another one, then he'd have to answer some questions. Don't you think?
>Would a cop be arrested for not stopping a drunk driver from crashing into innocents?
If the cop chased that drunk driver and they ran someone else off the road, there would have to be an investigation. He couldn't just say "dude, I was trying my best" and everyone just agrees.
Most importantly, don't mistake being under investigation with being guilty. All of these examples might have perfectly valid explanations and everyone gets to go home for Thanksgiving dinner. The important distinction is that someone else, a third party *has* to look into this kind of thing. You *can't* just take someone's word for it when there's dead people involved.
Part of that is things like being told that you can't leave the state, or turning in your service revolver.
>>82783262
>avengers meet with a colonel
>it's motherfucking Ross
>they tell him to fuck off
>they all get killed or forcibly "retired" to underwater gulag without trial for the rest of their lives
yeah great plan there
>>82784495
Not to mention they can probably stick him in the hot Korean doctor lady's machine and fix him up
>>82784211
It's not getting the public's trust back. It's just not. Period.
Having someone under your thumb is not trusting them.
Them signing that is letting other people control them under penalty of imprisonment (or worse) because they don't trust themselves to be responsible. Or maybe don't WANT the responsibility anymore and just need to be able to say it's not their problem anymore when a tough call needs to be made.
>>82784522
>they forget to turn it off of "vision" setting
>he comes out red and green
Problems I see with the house arrest.
1. It was super shady how she was not informed or asked about it.
2. For someone talking about needing supervision on what authority does Stark or Vision have to keep her there. Where they ordered to?
3. The reason why is also pretty hard to determine as you can see people disagreeing in this thread. Is it to protect her? Calm things down? Stop her because she is dangerous?
4. Why couldn't Stark ask her to lay low for a while before deciding to deny her freedom without even telling her?
>>82784470
that reminds me of this crazy thing.
where's his flight capacity?! or does tony prefer to keep his air superiority? rhodey got a bad shake in the CW. he was everywhere being attacked by everyone. even vision got a piece of him.
>>82784507
The witch wasn't being questioned, she was being held against her will.
That used to be the kind of thing The Avengers showed up to stop.
>>82784425
lmao
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/29/nyregion/two-shot-in-mount-vernon-amid-new-york-city-police-investigation.html?_r=1
>>82784535
It's absolutely about getting public trust back. It's the Avengers proclaiming publicly that they don't intend to ignore the law whenever and however they like.
>>82784400
>THAT MONSTER
Illegal is illegal. Destroying shit that you don't own is illegal. Attacking people to get your way is illegal. If someone burns down a house they don't own they deserve to go to jail. Sorry son. Facts is facts.
>>82784454
>Unless the MCU is some kind of dystopia, the UN has no right to violate the ICCPR.
If she signed the accords, an I can't remember if she did or not, then yeah. You can personally sign away all sorts of rights. People walk into recruiter's offices and do it every day. Depending on the language in the documents they signed all sorts of things become permissible.
You know that this stuff happens in the military every day, right? It's totally legal too.
>>82784495
Yea, can that asian woman that patched up Hawkeye in AoU not do anything? Or did she die? Even if she did I'm sure Tony could reverse engineer her shit from note or the pieces left around Stark Tower when Vision was...born?
>>82784516
who the flying fuck could ross send that would be able to arrest the entire avengers team against their will
>>82784621
>The witch wasn't being questioned, she was being held against her will.
Happens in the military every day. No one cries for troops who get confined to barracks when they're under investigation.
>That used to be the kind of thing The Avengers showed up to stop.
Get back to me when they raid Fort Bragg to free Corporal Jenkins from his totally dick platoon sergeant after he misses formation.
>>82777278
>Wanda, we're gonna pull you off of the active roster for a little while so that you can learn about and hopefully master your powers.
>Vision is going to help you.
>Also, here's the disguise matrix thingy that Black Widow used that time she killed Alexander Pierce, we think you should wear this when you go out in public so that nobody tries to take revenge for what happened in Lagos.
>We also think that someone might be using that same technology to frame Bucky Barnes, the UN bombing doesn't fit his MO.
I just solved this movie.
>>82784660
Pretty sure holding someone against their will in your home is all kinds of illegal.
>>82784778
So is everything they Avengers do.
>>82784660
>Destroying shit that you don't own is illegal. Attacking people to get your way is illegal. If someone burns down a house they don't own they deserve to go to jail. Sorry son. Facts is facts.
She knocked a whole through a couple of floors, the house was still standing. We've seen Tony cause the same amount of damage or worse to his home in at least half his movies. And it's not like she was some pyro playing with a match she damaged property while fighting someone that was trying to keep her there against her will.
>>82784699Abomination
>>82784816
the vision could solo abomination
iron man has hulkbuster armor that actually works
if ross released a powerhouse like abomination you bet banner and thor would show up
>>82784739
Your example is in regards to the legal rights of enlisted military personnel, when you join the military you forfeit most of your rights as a citizen.
A civilian foreign national does not hold that same limited legal status, or for that matter any obligations to such an authority.
>>82784816
Wouldn't that look bad for Ross, releasing a giant uncontrollable monster to hunt down the world's greatest heroes? What, would Abomination sign the accords too?
Then again, in the comics, NITRO of all people was one of the villains who signed up to help the Pro-Registration side even though he's LITERALLY THE ONE WHO CAUSED THE WHOLE STAMFORD INCIDENT, so I can't even say I'd be too surprised.
>>82784778
>Pretty sure holding someone against their will in your home is all kinds of illegal.
You aren't paying attention. If there's the proper language in the accords all sorts of shit becomes legal. In fact due to what it's designed to do the language almost *has* to be very reminiscent of your average military enlistment papers.
This means it's more than likely very legal and something that, in fact and in this reality happens every single day.
>>82784800
>She knocked a whole through a couple of floors, the house was still standing. If you damage a foundation enough the whole house is a loss and *must* be torn down. Building codes, something else you can't superhero your way out of.
>>82784800
>We've seen Tony cause the same amount of damage or worse to his home in at least half his movies.
TOny messes up his own house on occasion. It's His house. Tony didn't do this to someone else's property except in instances where he was fighting a "bad guy".
Wanda, conversely, destroyed Tony's house kicking the shit out of a supposed friend so she could run off and away from investigation and repercussions of her Africa trip to help an internationally wanted terrorist/assassin escape a different set of repercussions. These two scenarios are completely different morally.
>And it's not like she was some pyro playing with a match she damaged property while fighting someone that was trying to keep her there against her will.
Against her will but not necessarily illegally. Prisons are full of people being held against their will.
>>82784913
>What, would Abomination sign the accords too?
Emil seemed lucid if not completely crazy. It's possible he can be bargained with. I'm sure they've spent the intervening time studying him thoroughly and might have even come up with a fail-safe that Emil *thinks* will work. In other words, I don't see why not.
>>82784913
>Wouldn't that look bad for Ross, releasing a giant uncontrollable monster to hunt down the world's greatest heroes?
Tony released Green Goblin to do that and it worked out alright for him.
Geez, there seems to be a lot of people claiming that an obligation to the rule of law is limited to only individuals.
There were numerous examples of the law being openly ignored or selectively enforced by government agencies in the movie.
Where is the agument for accountability there?
>>82785063
>There were numerous examples of the law being openly ignored or selectively enforced by government agencies in the movie.
Like?
Shoot on sight orders for Bucky are totally within the German cops' authority. He was an extremely powerful, skilled, and mentally dangerous individual who had killed cops before, with a very high likelihood of killing any cop who attempted to arrest him.
>>82784872
Foreign nationals can in fact sign legal documents. My argument has been contingent on her signing her rights away (which honestly I can't remember if she signed or not.)
Did you know that there are soldiers in the US Army right now who aren't American citizens and in fact might never become citizens? The world has a fair share of US veterans who were never granted US citizenship, so yeah.
>>82784857
Vision couldn't solo Ant-Man and Abomination has Military training So he'd be in and out before Thor even got word they were attacked. Even though it would look cool to have everyone fighting Abomination the smart play is to attack them one on one or in small groups. And who knows where Banner is?
>>82784913
Nah you fit him with some kind of ecploding collar and make up some shit about a rehabilitation program or using villains against villains for the good of the people press release thing and you're good to go.Plus you get a sweet Thunderbolts starting point.
>>82785111
Like the fact that they weren't even planning to put Bucky on trial once they did capture him alive, Ross even laughed at the suggestion. Or the fact that Wanda was unlawfully imprisoned without even being charged with any crime.
>>82785018
You're claiming that Wanda was being legally held to an agreement she didn't sign.
The notion that in that situation she's the villian for not allowing herself to be imprisoned as Tony Stark's literal kidnapping victim is and odd read of legality.
>>82785018
>supposed friend
Yea friendships tend to get strained when one friend refuses to let you leave.
>>82785018
If she wasn't charged or even made aware of her circumstances until she tries to leave than it seems a fair bet it was illegal.
>>82785152
the airport fight means nothing in terms of who could beat who.
everyone was pulling their punches, the vision even moreso. he would have no need to hold back against abomination.
how the hell would ross even control abomination long enough to have him carry out multiple surprise attacks? releasing abomination wouldn't end well at all for ross.
>>82785181
>Or the fact that Wanda was unlawfully imprisoned without even being charged with any crime.
Tony did that, not any govt.
>>82785181
You forgot Ocean Gitmo.
>>82785250
How is that illegal?
>>82780548
This trope absolutely shits me, because I refuse to believe that real people would react this way in real life.
The explosion and deaths were not a result of her direct actions - The bomb would have gone off and killed people regardless.
She potentially halved the amount of deaths.
I want to see a superhero film that starts with the whole "B-but you didn't save EVERYONE!" premise and leads into the superheroes going "Fine, fix it your fucking self, then." and sitting back to watch everybody die.
>>82785303
The Incredibles?
>>82785247
Because the alternative was her going straight to Ocean Gitmo despite not committing any crime. Steve, Sam, and Natasha had the option to retire if they didn't sign the accords, Wanda didn't get that choice.
>>82785322
>despite not committing any crime
Literally all of the Avengers had committed numerous crimes, and Wanda had committed the most of them all.
>>82785247
Well there's a conundrum.
If he was acting without any government authority then what right to detain her did he have? Wouldn't that be kidnapping?
If he did have the authority to act as a government agent then where was the due process of law? He didn't so much as read her rights to her and inform her of her arrest, so how can you claim that was a legal arrest?
>>82785322
>Because the alternative was her going straight to Ocean Gitmo
Nowhere is this stated.
Tony was keeping her under house arrest because he was worried she'd make things worse. There was nothing saying she was gonna go to jail for refusing to sign.
Though she should be in jail, anyway, because she absolute had committed crimes.
>>82785234
Yea but the Hulk had a hard time fighting him going all out Vision could do some crazy phase shit or that beam canon but If Hulk or Abomination got their hands on Vision I bet they could pull off an arm or two at least.
Abomination isn't irrational like the Hulk. He's a huge green freak, If he ran off or attempted escape his employment options are limited. That and in these specific situations He gets to test his ability against other super powered being something he seemed all about in the Incredible Hulk movie. So he gets out of whatever whole they have him in and he gets to hunt down and fight enhanced individuals and to some extent is back in military service which he said himself he liked doing. Being the Accords hound dog is like perfect job for him.
>>82785347
>Wanda had committed the most of them all
Oh come the fuck on, you're saying that she's done more than the fucking Black Widow? Remember her, the fucking assassin who used to work for America's enemies?
>>82785347
People need to start mentioning things like "trial" or "Miranda rights" or "due process" or any of the other things that happen before actual legal imprisonment if they want to make an "it's the law" argument.
>>82785374
>Though she should be in jail, anyway, because she absolute had committed crimes.
If you follow that train of thought then everyone in the room except Vision needs to be in jail.
>>82785457
Wanda and Natasha were the only ones who had intentionally killed innocent people, though.
>>82785423
>>82785469
>All and only the female Avengers have intentionally killed innocents
>>82785414
Actually, you're right, he'd be perfect for this. Here's hoping we actually get to see him in this role in a future movie. (I know it's not likely, but they brought Ross back, so it could happen.)
![Here-Olsen-all-her-Scarlet-Witch-glory[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6HxV9l5.jpg "Here-Olsen-all-her-Scarlet-Witch-glory[1].jpg")
>All these replies
>Nobody posting pictures of cutest Scarlet
>>82785469
Doesn't matter. Manslaughter is still a crime punishable with jail time.
>>82785213
>The notion that in that situation she's the villian for not allowing herself to be imprisoned as Tony Stark's literal kidnapping victim is and odd read of legality.
Prisoners aren't kidnapping victims. There's millions of people in prison all over America alone. If she was charged with a crime then they could have placed conditions on her mobility. Again, this is something that happens.
Foreign nationals also don't enjoy the rights of a citizen and those under investigation for dozens of deaths even less so. Tony, acting as an agent of the government irt the accords might very well have been covered legally.
>>82785213
>You're claiming that Wanda was being legally held to an agreement she didn't sign.
Also, conscription is a thing. Governments have been able to force people into service throughout history. It's not ideal, but I imagine that a world with "supers" would soon conscript the lot of them.
>>82785374
>Nowhere is this stated.
I think it's kind of implied Wanda had the least amount of choice out of anyone on the team. Ross, the press, the UN, and Wakanda seemed to have her directly pegged as the one that was responsible for those deaths. Other than that Vision being this tech no one even understands the Hulk being an uncontrollable Rage Monster and Thor the god like being and prince of some kind of extraterrestrial nation with who knows what kind of armies Wand has the strongest but controllable power on the team. I think it's pretty clear it was we get this bitch in our pocket, or we take her off the table kind of play in the works some where.
>>82785469
Are you sure Wanda intentionally killed innocents?
>>82785527
I don't recall the US ever being able to conscript non-citizens, which Wanda was very explicitly stated to be.
>>82785568
I would say sending the Hulk to attack a city counts.
>>82785423
If governments employ assassins then they're kind of legal *as far as that particular government goes* She also made her own deal and worked within the system to facilitate it. Wanda didn't do any of that.
>>82785448
>want to make an "it's the law" argument.
In a world where there have been people in Gitmo for over a decade this isn't so. Governments have been quite comfortable making whatever they need to be legal become legal for a very long time. Blow up a few dozen people and drop one town on top of another town with rockets and watch the laws get passed. It would make your head spin. The real world stretched laws to the breaking point because "terrorism", and those guys can't shoot lazers out of their asshole.
Also, don't confuse our constitution for the one the founding fathers in this universe wrote after being bitten by a radioactive libertarian.
>>82785568
>Are you sure Wanda intentionally killed innocents?
She sure tried her best. Sending the hulk against anyone just has to be considered attempted genocide.
>>82785599
>I would say sending the Hulk to attack a city counts.
This.
>>82780134
After what Hydra did in Winter Soldier I can't believe there's anyone in the world that seriously believes that any government agency should be in charge of the Avengers.
>>82785303
But they do act this way in real life. I've had conversations with people where they lose their shit because in a hostage situation, the police weren't able to save every single person. One guy died, like ten or so were saved, and instead everyone raged at the cops not being able to save the one guy and how they should have come up with a better plan to save everyone, completely ignoring that there was a high probability of a bomb going off doing even more damage
>>82784080
He was chokin out hawk guy
>>82785527
You keep stating that these accords could have granted Tony Stark these unilateral powers...
First of all- I don't seem to recall the scene where these accords were actually ratified. Let alone the scene that explained why there needed to be any signatures at all if it was compulsory.
Second- It was stated explicitly that the intent of legislation was to restrict and place under direct government authority any Avenger who signed up. That's the very opposite of granting any unilateral legal powers to Tony Stark to make such a decision.
>>82785740
After what Hydra did in Winter Soldier I can't believe there's anyone in the world that seriously believes that anyone should be allowed to bypass the law to take out whatever they deem a threat.
>>82784222
Not telling her sows distrust and will make her paranoid and unable to trust.
If stuff is being done behind her back then she will suspect darker motives. That's human nature.
>>82785303
>This trope absolutely shits me, because I refuse to believe that real people would react this way in real life.
People do do that. And in particular it is more likely when the culprit is already dead, and as such the victims needed another living person to blame.
>>82777278
Because it didn't work
>>82785797
I once had something like that happen to me IRL.
"Surprise, I've decided to hold you against your will."
The response to that is panic. How could it ever be anything other?
And creating a fight or flight response in someone with spooky powers is an example of Tony creating yet another dangerous situation.
>>82784246
Should have straight up told her, that way she at least feels she has some control. You know, a person worthy of lifting Mjolnir would tell her the truth, shame Thor's not around.
The fact she is not a US citizen meant she was fucked in the long run and I doubt things would ever blow over given the UN (read: US) called her a WMD. They were'nt gonna let go of the witchy chew-toy.
The end result of all this is she will probably be very slow to act when Thanos shows up in IW.
>>82785347
SHE A GOOD GIRL, SHE DINDU NUFFIN WRONG
SHE WAS GOIN TO COLLEGE
>>82786150
>SHE A GOOD GIRL, SHE DINDU NUFFIN WRONG
If she did do something wrong, then give her due process. Give her a trial, give her a judge, a tribunal, ANYTHING. Indefinite house arrest is what Banana Republics do, to imprison those they don't like who they know are innocent.
>>82784699
Powdered Toast Man.
>>82785827
It's like some kind ofWitch-hunt.
>>82786172
This.
It's how Ross told Cap that Bucky doesn't get a lawyer when they captured him. How people can think the guys pushing for the Accords are right is beyond me.
>>82785521
Wanda's knee socks and tight pants are a legit security threat.
Dangerous indeed.
>>82786369
It's not that the accords are right, it's that Tony is right for going along with them. If he didn't, the government would've just gone after all the superhumans in force, and Wanda would've been sent to Super-Gitmo right from the start instead of getting a cushy house arrest. And no, they wouldn't have given her a trial either. Forget not being a citizen, they probably wouldn't even legally consider her a human being.
>>82786487
>not a human being
>>82785548
This.
I think in Wanda's case there was an agenda at work by certain parties who want to turn her into a weapon.
People keep using "muh Hydra" as a logical reason for Team Cap to go against the Accords yet the Russos confirmed that only 1/3 of Shield was even infiltrated in TWS (mainly Cap's STRIKE team and anyone involved with the Helicarrier project).
>>82786659
>People keep using "muh Hydra" as a logical reason for Team Cap to go against the Accords
Nope, the Accords are half baked and don't work as it stands. Cap is against it because in its current form it is worse than no Accords at all. He is prepared to sign it when it is better organised and functional. But he isn't going to sign a rough draft.
>>82786659
I don't think anyone is using HYDRA that way on this thread (assuming you're not a troll trying to start an argument). They ARE however using HYDRA as an explanation as to why an asshat like Ross is somehow Secretary of Defense.
If you mean broadly and in real life that's the explanation you hear, then I must admit I hear over 98% of the arguments on the subject on 4chan, which is not even close to resenting anything like "real life" and from actual human beings I mostly hear that they did or did not like the movie or on occasion how excited they were for a Black Panther film.
