Do you agree with Chaykin? I certainly do.
>>82775410
Well Chaykin is a penciller, not an artist so how would he know.
>>82775489
He writes and draws
>>82775529
So penciller and writer, but not an artist.
It's useful solely as a label (primarily for OGNs). Otherwise, yeah, it's pretentious as fuck.
It's also funny because most of the situations where someone might say "graphic novel" are neither correct nor particularly indicative of the content within -- and thus, "comic" really would be the better word to use.
It's a legitimate term for comics that were never printed as floppies. It may have been a pretentious term at inception, but I think the backlash against it has become equally up its own ass.
>>82775410
Yeah, that sounds about write. Technically a Graphic novel is it's own classification, but more often than not it's what people who are embarrassed of reading comics call comics.
>>82775410
I usually say "graphic novels are comics for people who are ashamed to admit that they read comics."
http://www.tripwiremagazine.co.uk/interview/howard-chaykin-speaks-2/
The full interview, for anyone interested.
>>82775627
I've always found Chaykin kind of interesting. I can't tell if I dislike his comics or not.
He's got a new solo coming out, I might have to check it out.
>Hating on comics kino
Never
>>82775551
WTF is that supposed to mean?
>>82775966
That anon is trying to be autistic to avoid being wrong.
both are perfectly acceptable terms as far as i'm concerned. who fucking cares whether i decide to say i'm reading a graphic novel, a comic, or a trade?
>>82775410
Not entirely. I prefer calling them comics, but I'm okay with other people using "graphic novels."
>>82775410
He's 100% right. One of the biggest problems of comics in the last 15 years, mainly Big Two and higher level indie stuff, is that a lot of the people involved in creating and covering them are embarassed by comics.
>>82775410
I use graphic novel to refer to a hard cover copilation of issues. Was I wrong?
I like the quote, I think it was by Gaiman, that basically says that the difference between comics and graphic novels is like the difference between a prostitute and a "lady of the evening".
>>82776119
Technically, but normal people won't care.
>>82775551
anon, the pencillers are the artists
the inkers just trace over what's already there and clean up a little
it's one of those weird little historical quirks of comics that no longer makes any sense
also, Chaykin's worked outside of comics; he's automatically got that outsider perspective on what gets taken seriously and what doesn't, and to be honest... calling it a "graphic novel" is equivalent to kinoposting about the latest Battrash movie
you've got to live in the moment and stop trying to analyze everything
>>82775579
yeah having said that I'm guessing this quote is from like 1990 or something
>>82776449
>yeah having said that I'm guessing this quote is from like 1990 or something
No, the quote is from this year.
>>82776449
the kino thing is ironic dummy, no one uses that word seriously
>>82776137
That certainly sounds like Neil.
>>82776449
Maybe he's an artist, but he's no auteur, you can safely disregard what he says.
>volume of several collected issues
That's a trade paperback.
>original comic being released in its entirety as a single volume, unless that itself is part of a greater work
Graphic novel.
>>82775489
Pencilers are artists, anon
>>82775410
Sorta. I view it more as a marketing gimmick since they slap it on almost anything nowadays, including trade collections of any random ongoing comic in order to make it more marketable to casual scum
>>82777969
yes
>>82775410
I always refer to stuff like Rage of Ultron, the Earth One stuff, and comics that aren't released as floppies as OGNs.
But the floppies and the whole genre itself is comics.
I honestly don't mind either term but I do hate when people get pretentious about it.
>>82777969
Just to clear up some commonly misused terminology:
In general publishing, "trade paperback" refers to any book with a flexible cardstock cover that is printed at a larger size than the typical mass market paperback. In the comics industry however, "trade paperback" has come to mean a collection of comics previously published as single pamphlets (a.k.a. "floppies") reprinted and bound in book form with a cardstock cover.
So a hardcover collection of, say, twelve issues of The Walking Dead or whatever isn't a trade paperback because it has a "hardcover," not a cardstock cover.
Distributors make distinctionx between trade paperback collections, hardcover collections, and original graphic novels. If you look at PreviewsWorld listings, they indicate if a book is a TP (trade paperback), an HC (hardcover), or an OGN (original graphic novel).
An OGN can either have a cardstock cover or a hardcover. What makes it an OGN (from a distributor/publishing industry perspective) is that the material has never been previously published as individual pamphlets ("floppies"), hence the "original" terminology.
A lot of people mix this up though, including retailers and distributors, which just adds to the confusion. Marketing people especially love using "graphic novel" for any long-form comic, because it makes it sound more classy, even if it's inaccurate.
As for the "literary" definition of graphic novel, I don't really much care for it. It's all comics to me, but I won't go out of my way to call somebody pretentious for using the term.
>>82776449
>it's one of those weird little historical quirks of comics that no longer makes any sense
What makes you say that? Inking can be a specialized skill that gives more flexibility to putting together creative teams. If a penciller is great but their inking isn't, having a dedicated inker would make things better. Or you can mix and match inkers and pencillers of different styles to get very specific visuals depending on what you're looking for. Plus having an inker frees up the penciller to work on more projects at once.
>>82780242
Inkers, colourists and letterers are the unsung heroes of comics. They can make or break a comic more than the writers or the pencillers
>comics people hating on academic looks at things
I wish this meme would stop. the two can coexist. mediums don't have to be dumbed down or simplistic. is literature the only true medium where intellectual merit and enjoyment go hand in hand?
>anything smart is now "pretentious"
>>82780589
It's not about intelligence, it's about trying to make yourself or your work seem more important than it is. "comics" implies funny. The intentional rejection of the term to a more descriptive one implies that your comics are "serious business".
Not only that, calling it a "novel" is a bit of a stretch often. Most of these are more accurately "graphic short stories". Maybe Watchmen is a "novel", but The Killing Joke sure isn't. But if you call it a "novel" you can think of yourself as a novelist.
So the pretension is all packed into the phrase already.
>>82776449
>anon, the pencillers are the artists
>the inkers just trace over what's already there and clean up a little
How much the inker contributes to the look of the final art depends on how "tight" the pencils are. It's rarely just "tracing."
For example, look at the pic I've attached. Lee Weeks has pretty loose pencils here, and inker Bob McLeod contributes a lot of detail to the page, including backgrounds and props. He also reinterprets some of the penciled design elements.
Heck, according to Fabian Nicieza, on Leifeld's last couple of issues on X-Force before left Marvel to start Youngblood with Image Comics, he was practically just sending in penciled pages with stick figures and zero backgrounds, and it was the inker who was doing what your average reader would consider the actual art on the book.
Back in the day, pencilers would sometimes be credited with doing the "breakdowns," especially if their pencils were very loose and undefined (some pencilers would actually just send in thumbnail sketches, and it was up to the inker to do all the heavy lifting), and inkers would be credited as "finishers" (or less commonly, "renderers"). I actually prefer this myself, because it's a fairer representation of what they actually do.
>>82781109
>It's not about intelligence, it's about trying to make yourself or your work seem more important than it is.
shouldn't this ideally be a goal? importance of work informs sales, critical thought, its place in canon, etc.
> "comics" implies funny. The intentional rejection of the term to a more descriptive one implies that your comics are "serious business".
What if the comics are serious business? And adhering to a rigid definition of what the word "comic" means is linguistic prescriptivism that inherently limits the medium to funnybooks and capeshit
>Not only that, calling it a "novel" is a bit of a stretch often. Most of these are more accurately "graphic short stories". Maybe Watchmen is a "novel", but The Killing Joke sure isn't. But if you call it a "novel" you can think of yourself as a novelist
I actually agree on this point. These are far from novels but what do we define as "novels" here? Are they not novels in form i.e. a collection of pages with words on them bound together in some manner, or are they not novels in telling a story of some considerable length?
i use them interchangibly, couldnt care less as long as my words get across
people are so hung up on terms they forget theyre only there to convey an idea
>>82780328
I don't know if I agree with you that inkers, colorists, and letterers can make or break a comic more than the writer or penciler. I do agree that bad inking can ruin a comic and great inking can elevate a mediocre pencil job. And I will say that they contribute a lot to the final work, a lot more than casual fans give them credit for.
The inker, especially, does a lot in terms of creating lighting, texture, mood, and atmosphere (see attached pic) as well as serving as an unofficial, first-line visual editor, correcting discontinuities and inconsistencies in the pencils.
>>82781215
Oh so McLeod is the one who ruined Spidey's eyes.
>>82782127
Eh, I don't know if he "ruined" anything on that page.
Bad or incompatible inking can absolutely wreak havoc with a penciler's work, though. Some pencilers insist on inking their own pencils, while others insist on working only with a select list of inkers whom they trust.
For example, when John Buscema was working on The Savage Sword of Conan, he would insist that he ink his own work, or if the editor was going to use an inker, that it should be Rudy Nebres (Buscema's favorite inker and a guy Neal Adams once called the best illustrator he'd ever seen in comics).
But the funny thing was, reader letters were largely unanimous in saying that they preferred it when Buscema was inked by either Ernie Chan or Alfredo Alcala (and sales figures backed it up—issues that featured Buscema/Chan or Buscema/Alcala art teams sold consistently better than those that had other penciler-inker pairings), so editorial made the decision to pair him, more often than not, with Chan or Alcala.
>>82780486
>>82780589
I'm not as familiar with the discussion in the field of comics, but something like this is happening with video games with the whole "games are art" thing. There's a crowd of people, especially critics and "journalists" who go on about making games "grow up" and having them "taken seriously".
Now I do sincerely think that games are art and I don't need the approval of people who think they're just dumb kiddie toys.
I'm more than fine with people trying to get a deeper layer of appreciation for games out of love. But these critics do it out of insecurity.
Most of the time they're not especially smart people. They might have taken a lot of classes about analyzing and studying media but they have very little if any experience in actually creating it (besides talking about something someone else created).
So then they end up making a lot of superficial pseudo-intellectual bullshit plucked from the lowest hanging fruit. And based on this they'll try to dictate the tastes of the consumer and what direction the medium should go in. Then because their fellow critics are fucking followers they'll echo the same sentiment for weeks or months without adding anything new to the conversation. Then they'll deflect any disagreements with "ART CAN BE CRITICIZED! IF YOU DON'T THINK BEJEWELED IS ABOUT THE HORRORS OF IMPERIALISM THEN YOU MUST NOT THINK GAMES ARE ART! YOU'RE HOLDING BACK THE MEDIUM!"
And all this to impress people who couldn't give less of a shit about video games.
Is that what's happening with comics?
its just pretension yes.
well pretension at first but people are starting to actually believe it
Chaykin is awesome
>>82782127
Keep in mind, Alex Ross said that during the 90's, the editorial was demanding that Spider-Man be depicted with the huge eyes because McFarlane made that popular. So while McLeod might've done the change (it could also be Romita's Raiders or something like that), it was probably an editorial decision.
>>82782123
>>82781215
This is pretty interesting stuff to me. Do you have any suggestions on what to read if I want to look more into things like this?
>>82782982
>I'm not as familiar with the discussion in the field of comics, but something like this is happening with video games with the whole "games are art" thing. There's a crowd of people, especially critics and "journalists" who go on about making games "grow up" and having them "taken seriously".
This is nothing new to comics. If you can, go track down back issues of the Comics Journal going as far back as the 80's and work your way through to the recent years.
Mind you, there are good analyses done in there, but there's some that are pretty close to what you hate in videogame criticism.
>So then they end up making a lot of superficial pseudo-intellectual bullshit plucked from the lowest hanging fruit. And based on this they'll try to dictate the tastes of the consumer and what direction the medium should go in. Then because their fellow critics are fucking followers they'll echo the same sentiment for weeks or months without adding anything new to the conversation. Then they'll deflect any disagreements with "ART CAN BE CRITICIZED! IF YOU DON'T THINK BEJEWELED IS ABOUT THE HORRORS OF IMPERIALISM THEN YOU MUST NOT THINK GAMES ARE ART! YOU'RE HOLDING BACK THE MEDIUM!"
Go look at Hooded Utilitarian, it's made up of people who used to write Comics Journal in the 00's who broke away from that magazine possibly over disagreements. And a lot of their articles (and the comments sections) are pretty fucking close to what you say there.
>>82786335
Social justice morons actually think that an immensely progressive guy like Grant Morrison is transphobic?
>>82786475
I would extend that to morons everywhere. It's really more just the general trend in internet culture of picking out minute details from someone's work or social media and misinterpreting them out of context to fuel outrage towards some agenda.
>>82786475
I think it's mostly been comments in blogs, but I haven't really bothered to read many of them.
To be fair though, Morrison (and even Moore to an extent) kind of acted not that different from their younger critics way back then. Every time I look at critics my age or younger writing some sort of scathing thing about them I keep thinking they'll end up invariably targeted by the next generation the way they target Moore and Morrison, and the cycle continues.
>>82775410
We've been over this, GN is a term that has existed some time. Whether or not it's misused now it still had, has and always will have correct use.
In fact I find it often those less invested in the medium itself and more concerned with a vendetta against a group that rubs them wrong who go about obsessing with labeling audiences instead of the work.
>self-justifying, pretentious navel gazers
My good God, Howard. James Fucking Steranko literally wrote Graphic Novels. This sort of mentality is the outward lashing, backwards thinking of a revisionist, not someone with a credible point.
>>82775410
not really.
A Graphic Novel implies a single cohesive narrative. In terms of capeshit we'd call those trades as opposed to floppies.
Comics tends to imply one and done stories or news strips. So floppies, news strips, etc.
honestly chaykin seems kind of butthurt here, like someone who knows he does hackwork but gets defensive about it to make himself feel better.
>>82780242
I like tom palmer's ink work the most.
