Tony, I love your mom but she's not Steve...
That Bucky...he's the kind of guy you can trust. I'd trust him with my life.
I'm sorry for constantlycucking your mom, Tony.
>>82760220
Do you have to call me and tell me this every day, dad?
>>82760220
It really hit me in the feels when he recognized bucky.
>>82760331
Yes. Steve is the son I wished I had.
>>82760334
Oh that's a nice metal arm you have, Bucky...oh you're winding it up...
>>82760331
Son, did I ever tell you about that time that Steve Rogers did that amazing thing and was much ooler than you'll ever be? Those were the days.
>>82760371
Bucky, I'm not sure you understand this new concept of a "fist-pound". You're not supposed to hit the person in the face.
Oh you're about to try again?
>>82760376
Son, that's nice what you did there, but I have to say Steve did that a thousand times better. Just being honest, son.
Boy, Tony. That Captain America sure was a SUPERHERO. I mean you just can't imagine how incredible he was.
You know, because he was a SUPERHERO.
I mean a SUPERHERO is just someone I could be so proud of and have acceptance for. Not that I don't love you too Tony.
But man, that Captain America.
What do you mean with "I can't launch a shield"? You're grounded, Tony!
Isn't Tony unrelated by blood to Howard?
Hey son, did I ever tell you about the time Captain America was a better person than you'll ever be?
He was never an alcoholic asshole, hell, he can't even get drunk! What an amazing guy, unlike you
Just making sure you remember son, love you (but not as much as Steve Rodgers)
>>82760541
In the comics or some bullshit. I'd say given Agent Carter though, there's a good chance those two are blood related though.
I really wanted to call you "Steven", son. But your stupid mother's stupid father had to be named "Anthony", that old bastard. You take after him a lot, though. He was also not as great as Steve Rogers.
>>82760538
Maria, did you see where I put that prototype Captain America shield I was designing?
The wireframe one.
Yes I know Steve's been gone for 20 years ,but we're going to find him again! I know it!
Tony! Have you been playing with daddy's prototypes again?
These aren't for you! They're not toys.
They're for COOL people like Captain America.
>>82760286
>spoiler
That's a solid twist.
>>82760541
bullshit retcon, movie folks will just ignore it and that's for the better
>>82760575
I'm waiting for the plot twist beingswitched at birthbecause HYDRA or some bullshit.
>TH-THAT SHIELD DOESN'T BELONG TO YOU
Did anyone else think for a second that Steve was gonna say something like "Your father made it for me."
>>82760933
Steve wouldn't twist the knife like that.
>>82760220
roger youre a shitty ad man get your dick out of joans ass and get back to workits my turn
>>82760959
Get out of here, Howard.
Hurry Maria, they are marathoning Captain America movies at the old cinema!
Tony? Who?
Oh, the boy! just leave him, he will get bored!
>>82760600
Oh man it's way to late and there's been socuments that show otherwise but it would have been hularious if Tony's middle name was Steven.
>>82760959
Man, Steve is such a great guynot like that nogood brat Tony
>a bunch of nazis frozen with Captain America's superfella syrum
>"Oh boy, one is going to survive and become a really cool bad guy"
>they're actually all destroyed
>>82760971
Fuck off, Tony. Can't you see that the adults are talking here?
>>82760933
Technically, Howard did not wanted give him that shield because he considered it just an eccentric prototype. But yeah... Steve did not have a clear conscience for having kept secret the involvement of Bucky. He did not feel worthy.
>This entire thread
>>82761141
WE NOMAD NOW
>>82761142
Whoever made that edit with Chris Evans' face on Pa Kent's in MoS is a fucking genius.
>>82760220
Oh Tony here. I bought you a captain America cake for your birthday
What it's not your birthday? Your dog died?
Who cares. We get to eat CAPTAIN AMERICA'S cake.
>>82761175
UMAD NOMAD
Steve's like a son to me...like a son who's not an embarassment to his parents, one I can feel proud of.
Poor Tony. Roger was so busy being sad about Steve that he had to use Don as his male role model. The drinking, the womanizing...
Tony, its not that I don't love you...it's that Steve is just the best...he's so...Steve...just perfect...I mean I could list your imperfections all day, in fact I wrote them all down, but Steve...could not find a single flaw. You can't compete with that, son.
Its not just Steve I like.
I like Bucky, too.
I would trust him with my life.
I dont want you to be just as great as Steve, Tony
No man can live up to that challenge
But at least try to by like him, okay? He's a much better man than you
>>82760220
>Filename
Hehee
>>82761833
I don't blame you for this, Bucky
but if you see my son in 25 years, tell him Captain America was really awesome.
Sgt Barnes?
Where's Steve?
Did I tell you how I met Steve, my son?
He was on a suicide mission to rescue his best friend Bucky from nazis. Took down an entire Hydra camp for his friend Bucky. Seems like he'd destroy the world for that man.
I sure wouldn't be the one to ever get between Captain America and his Bucky.
Damn that moment in Agent Carter when she tells Howard "I know you loved him, I loved him too" that pretty mich explained the Tony daddy issues and his bitchy behaviour towards Steve.
Fuck Tony, Steve can't help being so loved.
>>82760972
Do you think Tony hired her as his new bitch because of her name?
>>82760220
I think it's pretty obvious from the movies that Tony loves Steve because of his daddy issues. Possibly in a sexual way. Define toy in a sexual way
>>82763601
Based Howard probably shipped them.
>>82765711
I wonder how the people who ship Howard and Bucky feel about that.
So how did Steve know Tony's parents gotfucking killed. Did he know it wasfucking Bucky Barnes the goddamn Winter Soldier?
>>82760538
Kinda makes me wonder how awesome it would be if they gave his dad a Cave Johnson personality.
>>82766895
Remember the folder Black Widow gave him at the end of the last movie? How she told him he wasn't going to like the information in it?
>>82760286
Well done, best spoiler in a long time
>>82767062
it was because Zola showed him that Hydra assassinated Howard Stark. We don't know what was in the folder.
>>82760286
See I thought this is where the thread was going but now I'm disappointed
>>82766895
Writers say that he and Natasha were able to put two and two together from the Zola scene that Hydra assassinated the Starks. Even though it wasn't outright confirmed that the Winter Soldier did it, like Steve said "I didn't know it was him" they said he probably knew it in his heart and suspected it but didn't want to confront that knowledge.
They also said that Steve never told because he was afraid how Tony would react, and that he was right because Tony reacted exactly how Steve feared.
>>82767893
Do you think Howard ever made Maria wear a wig and muscle suit when they made love?
>>82760220
>I don't care, he killed my mom.
Not even memeing, what did he mean by this? Does he really not give a shit about his dad?
>>82767939
He should've told him after a couple of drinks or after taking him to the amusement park.
>>82760541
>>82760575
>>82760912
That plot was so fucking dumb. I actually kind of liked the idea of Tony being messed with prenatally so he could pilot the godkiller suit, but the whole 'fake brother' thing was just retarded. And now BENDIS of all people gets to fill in the blanks.
>>82767939
Well, telling him right away was the best option since it'd give Tony time to, y'know, process the info.
>>82768004
Tony had better closure with Howard in IM2, his mom's death devastated him even more.
>>82768004
He said it in the flashback/VR demo. He doesn't hate his dad anymore but it's complicated, whereas he has no such issues with his mother.
>>82768004
He did, but he had a much closer relationship with his mother.
>>82768025
>top of a rollercoaster
>btw my friend fucking murdered your parents
>Tony's cries all the way to end of the ride
>Steve buys the pictures
Boy that Steve. I'll tell you tony, even if he w ore a suit if armor...were he to take off that suit of armor you know what he would be. A better son that. I ever had.
>>82768315
>Tony sobbing the rest of the day.
>Even as he eats cotton candy.
Man Tony, if Steve played some random guy trying to take over a train, I'd watch that movie just for Steve.
>>82768025
I agree he should have told him, but I also understand why it's in character that he didn't. Steve is far less emotional than Tony and only really good at handling problems he can punch away. He's not really the person you want comforting you since it's been shown that he deals with his own emotional issues by ignoring them. He was also probably scared of Tony going off and hunting Bucky himself, when Steve was still hiding the fact he was trying to find him from the rest of the Avengers. Because Tony is very unpredictable and destructive in his emotional decisions, which leads to shit like Ultron or inviting terrorists to his house.
Natasha is the one with better psychological understanding of both Steve and Tony, but I think even she was wanting to avoid the inevitable blowup once Tony found out. I think she should have given the information to Pepper, but then maybe she knew there was trouble in paradise there too.
We'll never know how Tony would have reacted if he knew sooner or if time would have made any difference, but we can all agree that was pretty much the worst way he did end up finding out.
>>82767967
no but he hired muscular male escorts
I feel like I am in the wrong when I say I supported Stark, and how he felt. Am I a bad person?
>>82761083
>We couldve had some form of Master Man
>>82768544
It's not wrong, it's just the response of an emotionally stunted child.
>>82767967
Why do you think he married her? She was the only one who didn't get upset when he screamed Steve's name out during sex.
>>82768544
No, you're just an emotionally driven person. Nobody is saying that how Stark felt was wrong, but how he acted on his feelings is what people debate.
>>82768581
>Find out someone merked your Parnets
>Wanting to crush the other's head like a grape is "emotionally stunted"
>>82761275
I did not know this was a thing. I need to see this.
Steve is so wonderful...with him was the only time I felt like a proud father.
>>82768632
I think somebody's got a .webm version too.
Truly a work of art.
>>82768544
A lot of people support cap out of symphathy cause we know he's a good guy with a perfect butt and we have intimate knowledge about the avengers after 10+ movies, but in universe I'd probably support Tony. Most logical way to proceed.
>>82768315
>Steve, out of nowhere, does the Chris Evans laugh
>>82768630
>if a puppet controlled by a man kills your parents, you want to kill the puppet
Yeah, emotionally stunted.
>>82760541
Wait, you mean the Duck?
>>82768630
If someone murdered my parents.
I'd shake their hands and thank them.
>>82760220
>''Steve, you have to rape the Red Skull.''
>>82768706
yeah mind control doesn't make this cut and dry, it's not like Bucky could have not killed them
Bucky! Have you shown Steve your wonderful metal ar-ow! yet? It really is something! You know what else is someth-ow!thing? Steve!
>>82768763
Howard loves Steve too much to make him do that
He'd get Tony to do it instead
>>82768766
Okay I don't quite understand what you are saying. Are you agreeing with me by saying that bucky didn't have a choice, or are you disagreeing by saying this isn't cut and dry?
>>82768788
>>82768788
>Tony, you have to rape Red Skull! Steven is counting on you!
>>82768782
Sergeant Barnes? Oh wait can't be, you're too fat and young looking.
>>82768782
Your metal arm reminds me of Steve's...so firm...steady...full of purpose...and...sexy...
Quick Bucky, free my from this boring son and take me to Steve! Yes... that's right....just one more punch...
Sergeant Barnes! Behind Steve, my loving wife, and my fantastic mustache, you're my favorite thing!
>>82768704
>but in universe I'd probably support Tony. Most logical way to proceed.
The Accords seemed sound, but that isn't what is actually happening. The issue with the Accords from the beginning is that it is a great idea, but with no actual workable plan. Signing the plan when it is half baked is the worst of both words, you dismantle what you currently have, the Avengers, and replaced it with something that isn't even functional, Ross' Thunderbolts.
DELETE THIS
>>82768864
Is that you, Snake?
>>82768989
>Why do they call him the winter soldier?
>Because he's bisexual. Used to be King T'Chaka's partner.
>>82768544
Honestly, Tony had a better point than I expected him to have, but he just kept undercutting himself the entire movie. Also, putting Wanda under house arrest was just kind of a dick move.
Not to say Cap didn't have a couple pretty big fuckups to his name, mind. But on the whole, and with the experience of previous movies, it felt like Steve had a better point.
Was Howard smarter than Tony?
Anthony, have I ever told you about my greatest failure in life? Well, long story short... It's you, Anthony Steven Stark. If it wasnt for the word "Steven", I wouldve divorced your mother
>>82769105
>Realizing the perfection of Steve Rogers
Yes.
>>82769105
Tony managed to shrink the arc reactor down, so they're pretty much equal.
>>82769094
>they're both Romanian
I wonder if Howard got butthurt when people credited Steve's creation solely to Erskine.
>>82768668
STOP, INVINCIBLE SLUT
>>82769165
I'm sure it must have bothered him at first, but he knew Erskine and the guy did die for the cause so I'm sure he let it go
>>82769101
I still don't see how anyone thinks Steve was right. The accords had issues but it blows my mind so many are like 'yeah just let em do whatever want. Military operations across all borders with no oversight... Fuck it why not?"
Like tony and Ross were flawed. But Steve's alternative was to so what they wanted wherever with zero accountability to anyone an we take it on faith they don't turn bad or fuck shit up.
>>82768984
Why do you hate tumblr so much you bitch
>>82769165
Now you know how we grad students feel when all the credit goes to the professor in charge of the lab.
>>82768968
Personally, to me the idea o the Avengers not being able to move out into a situation until explicitly authorized by an UN committee, as was mentioned, just strikes me as completely messing up the Avengers' entire job, which is fast resposne to unusual threats.
Like, oversight, sure. Consequences, sure. Aftermission reports, sure. Having to wait until the UN gives the OK before pursuing the next Ultron? That kinda defeats the purpose of the Avengers in the first place.
>>82769233
They make shitty gifs.
>>82769101
Tony's side would be easier to support if he didn't constantly undermine his own arguments with outright hypocrisy and doing things that went against what he was claiming to support. In the end you could tell even he knew he ended up throwing in his lot with the wrong people. It's not that accountability in theory is wrong, but he was willing to take it in any form instead of recognizing it was headed in the wrong direction. With the Avengers all thrown into the Raft without any due process, Tony at least recognized it was the only right thing to do to allow Steve to break them out.
>>82769227
from an in-universe perspective, holding the Avengers accountable for their actions would be justice, but we as the audience know they get shit down when they operate with complete freedom
>>82769227
>He thinks that the best hands to protect the world arent Captain Americas own
>>82769242
I agree with this completely. You can still punish the Avengers for fuckups after the fact, but delaying and wrapping up world saving in inefficient bureaucratic red tape is retarded and completely counter productive.
>>82769227
Steve was right. The Accords as a whole were designed to neuter the Avengers and turn them into a super task force for the UN, not actually improve anything.
Asking accountability of the Avengers would have been one thing. They had every right to make Wanda and any other Avenger face consequences for their fuckups. They had no right to demand complete control of all Avenger activity.
>>82769227
I can really get Steve. After having a movie where it turned out that pretty much the entirety of the UN's biggest military complex turned out to be fucking super-nazis, Cap was understandably feeling pretty queasy about letting the UN boss him around.
I believe that some accountability would be necessary, but the problem is that it was placed as a dichotomy of "either Sokovia accords or nothing", and in that case Cap chose "nothing". I did like that scene they had where Tony gives in a bit and Steve gives in a bit and it looks like they might even make it work. Tony wants structure to prevent any further fuckups, but is willing to realize some things need to be bent a bit. Steve wants some heavy guarantees against being jerked around, but understands some accountability needs to be had. Because honestly, their positions weren't that polarized at first. But the more they opposed each other the more they dug in their heels.
>>82769310
So just like the UN in real life?
>>82769368
But the avengers have the right to fly into anyone's airspace? Land on foreign soil? And take part in unsanctioned military operations anywhere and in any situation they see fit without tha nations governments say so? Just go anywhere and do whatever they want?
Cos that's what cap was fighting for. Avengers autonomy to do superhuman shit wherever they saw fit without so much as showing a fucking passport to anyone.
>>82769485
Yes. In the real world it's stupid enough. In the Marvel world where these organizations are routinely taken over and infiltrated by villains it's even worse.
>>82760220
>Tony, I love your mom but she's not Steve...
He's certainly noSergeant Barnes?
>>82769495
If my city was being invaded by aliens, I wouldn't want to wait for my government to pull its head out of its ass long enough to decide if it was okay if we were saved.
>>82769541
Do you think he and Bucky ever shagged pretending each other was Steve?
>>82769597
I've read this fanfic.
Man, all the focus on Tony and Steve almost makes you forget the brutal death of the Starks.
Everyone says "waah nobody died" and that's true, but technically we also witnessed death of a character we were used to see since the start of the MCU. In the end Howard was a fully formed character, we've seen him growing from the cocky scientist in TFA to the frustrated science man and father in IM2, we're told he helped create SHIELD (that used to be the backbone of the franchise) and we had other small bits like in Ant-man
The history we, as an audience, had with the character really makes his death and Tony's reaction overall more powerful, despite technically being part of yet another "protag's backstory includes tragic death of parents" trope
>>82769620link?
>>82769495
The only reason anyone has any objections to the Avengers actions is because they have scary superpowers.
If some French tourist in Syria saw a suicide bomber about to blow and kicked his ass before he hit the trigger, there would be no international outrage about the French taking aggressive paramilitary action in Syria. They would acknowledge that it was just a dude who saw the opportunity to do the right thing and took it.
>>82769495
Let us look at the three Avengers missions we've seen
>Aliens invade NYC, Tens of millions(if not more) lives at stake
>Genocidal AI, Entire human population at stake
>Terror cell steals Biological virus, could use to kill millions
>>82769368
>Steve was right. The Accords as a whole were designed to neuter the Avengers and turn them into a super task force for the UN, not actually improve anything.
This was my problem. The whole thing seemed to make it so that "having oversight" necessarily predicated just being a task force under full command. And it shouldn't have to be so. There's plenty of ways to set up power checks and judgement procedures and rules without actually letting a handful of politicians go "yeah, we want Iron Man suppressing insurgents about here".
But the Sokovia Accords were clearly not that. I suppose it was a necessity to having a disagreement, having the measures clearly be something drafted out of fear, paranoia, and power grabbing. If they had been reasonable oversight measures we wouldn't have a movie. And under what actually was there, I'd have to side with Cap. The Avengers have a better track record of power use than most politicians.
I'm just annoyed at the insistence of media on presenting regulation as a thing that is always evil and never actually drafted sensically, just a tool of either fear or ambition for control, of both.
>>82769559
Not what I said
>>82769659
>>Aliens invade NYC, Tens of millions(if not more) lives at stake
Because of Shield and Thor.
>>Genocidal AI, Entire human population at stake
Because of Tony Stark.
>>82769659
And in all those, they performed unrealistically well. I mean, a fucking alien invasion and attack by a norse god ended with the death toll of a moderately sized terrorist attack. If you actually sit down and look at it, it's positively ridiculous how good the Avengers have been at their jobs.
>>82769645
But if I traveled to France and kicked in a suspected terrorists apartment and shot him with a machine gun in his bed because he went for a possible bomb remote...it wouldn't just be okay. If I illegally entered the country by sea and smuggled in deadly weapons and broke into a home and did some military ahir without telling anyone I was even there beforehand. No badge no papers just 'i felt it was right'
That's wha avengers wantfreedom to do. Go where they please when they please and perform military action based on their personal whims
>>82769644
http://archiveofourown.org/works/6833647
>>82769761
>>>Genocidal AI, Entire human population at stake
>Because of Tony Stark.
Did Tony Stark have to go on trial for every death in Age of Ultron?
>>82769659
Again not my point. Actually read what I wrote and tell me what I wrote is okay. And why. Not "but they saved this" . I mean in general why is it okay
Let us look at the biggest supporters of the Accord
>Ross
A man who is known for loving power and control, and under the accords would be given control over the avengers, the most powerful entity currently on earth
>Stark
A man ridden with guilt over his Ultron, and pushed over the edge when an angry mother called him a murderer
>Rhodes
a literal government employee shown to do whatever they tell him at almost all times.
>Nastasha
Someone who just wants all her friends to stick together
>T'Challa
A man who saw his people die in a tragic accident, then saw his dad die. His first response was to kill whoever he was told did it.
>>82769761
Now, do government leaders know this?
>>82769633
The movie did so many things right. While watching I was so focus on Tony and Steve's catfight, and based BP, that didn't pay attention to Wanda's development. Bless the Russos, I'm hyped again for IW andblack widow movie
>>82769804
No because Stark did it because Wanda scared him so it was totally okay guys he had no idea Loki's staff had potentially dangerous and evil powers not like some member of his team was brainwashed into killing with it before or that it was attempted to be used on him as well. How could he have possibly known the plot of Avengers 1?
>>82769761
>loki tries to kill all life on midgar because his brother likes to visit there
That is not thors fault, might as well blame the politicians for the bombing of the accords meeting. They brought the fight to them
>tony is a retard and made ultron
Yes, and tony should pay for it, not spread his guilt like butter across the rest of the team that ended his world altering fuckup
>>82769799
But the Avengers have never done anything of the sort. Every action they've ever taken has been with significant established precedent. They don't take down "suspected" terrorists, they take down fucking HYDRA and their alien-tech super weapons.
>>82760959
If Whedon wrote the film he would have said it.
>>82769843
>Avengers autonomy to do superhuman shit wherever they saw fit
Yes, that's how it should be.
>>82769847
T'Challa doesn't support the accords. He just wants Bucky so it's convenient to side with them.
>>82769847
>Now, do government leaders know this?
If not, then Tony Stark and SHIELD are covering up crimes against humanity.
Captain America, at least, knows. Why didn't he drag Stark to the police or the Hague?
>>82769874
>That is not thors fault, might as well blame the politicians for the bombing of the accords meeting. They brought the fight to them
It was mostly SHIELD's fault (they were experimenting on the tesseract, which they hid from Thor).
>>82769905
The hero act of 2002
I don't understand one thing, why was Zemo constantly asking people for a mission report?
He already seemed to know what happened for some reason.
And also, was there just a conveniently placed camera in a tree next to where Bucky killed Tony's parents? I don't understand
Also why did they hype up these other super soldiers for Zemo just to shoot them all in the head? Why didn't he just show that video to Tony somewhere else? Why there?
>>82769896
He was absolutely in support of the accords. Watch the UN scene again
>>82769892
>Yes, that's how it should be.
Why the Avengers and not Slovakia?
They made strike forces against foreign powers at will because they deemed them a threat, when they are the biggest threats.
>>82760220
>>82760538
I need to see his face morphed with Dominic Cooper.
>>82769974
Because one is a comic book superhero team up group, and the other is fucking Sokovia
>>82769885
They entered a foreign nation with military arms and we're shown to have informed no one at the start of civil war. They didn't let the authorities know. Or the government. No one. They just showed up and performed military action In a sovereign nation they were not authorized to do so in. That's not something people are allowed to do without oversight or authorization. Why does a costume make it okay?
Again why is it okay for the avengers to go where they want and do as they please with deadly force an the government of the nation having no say so?
>>82770053
It's also a world that has proven, multiple times, that corruptions are to governments as Evil is to Nazis
>>82770030
I forget where exactly but there was a shot of him in Age of Ultron.
>Ross showing the Avengers footage from Loki, Ultron, Lagos and Wakanda
>"Alright that's enough"
Nigga, that's all you guys ever did, of course it's enough
>>82770100
So nobody is going to answer the actual question then? Just keep referencing it here shit as if to show how great the avengers are.
>>82770155
>Stop talking about how great the avengers are! How great the avengers are doesn't matter when we're talking about how great the avengers are!
>>82770135
Cap noticed his daughteru's sad face.
>>82770135
are you blind?
>>82770032
>Because one is a comic book superhero team up group, and the other is fucking Sokovia
They were Sokovian freedom fighters, 1.
2, that didn't stop the comic book superhero team up group from stealing their shit and using it to make Ultron.
>>82770180
So if someone's great they should have to follow laws or acknowledge borders? They can just do whatever They want anywhere they want.
>>82770135
>Nigga, that's all you guys ever did, of course it's enough
Cap attacked that ship with Batroc the Leaper, too.
>>82770246
>They can just do whatever they want anywhere they want
Yeah. Because it's been shown time and time again that "What they want" is saving the world and "where they want" is areas of great ongoing devestation
>>82770135
Korea and Africa weren't shown.
>>82770259
>>82770315
Oh yeah forgot about that
>>82770315
which is pretty bullshit because South Africa is really the only time the Avengers just caused a bunch of wanton damage without a greater life-preserving purpose
>>82770305
So your logic is the world's government's give them carte Blanche allowance to do anything regardless of the consequences because they did good in the past? That's just naive.
>>82770454
It's even more naive to think that giving someone else control of them changes anything for the good
>>82770454
>carte Blanche allowance to do anything
fucking retarded equivocation. If Captain America just rolled up to a random street corner and opened fire, that would be handled differently then Captain America rolling up to a random street corner and punching the guy who was about to open fire
>>82770476
Not saying that. Saying the idea of a group of individuals being allowed to bring ridiculous firepower across borders without authorization of any kind but their own whims is ludicrous when the only justification is ' they did good stuff in the past' .
>>82770053
>They entered a foreign nation with military arms and we're shown to have informed no one at the start of civil war.
Actually, they entered the nation to recover a piece of alien technology that Thor wanted. That was the entire reason Thor was even there. So if you want to complain you can send your envoy to Asgard.
>>82770601
Thor wasn't even there.. what the fuck are you talking about
>>82770558
But I'm not talking about what cap WILL do..I'm talking about what a super hero team should be allowed to do. Again cap wanted no oversight. Zero answerin to anyone. That's ridiculous. Nations have borders and law and governments. Just because caps a nice guy doesn't mean he should be able to ignore this shit when hopping around the globe and getting into firefights in populated locations.
Hey Tony, I wish Steve was here and not you
>>82770665
Cap came close to accepting compromise after the Bucky chase scene, but the Accords still went too far. It's not Steve's fault.
>>82770648
>Thor wasn't even there.. what the fuck are you talking about
I was talking about AoU.
http://teatotally.tumblr.com/post/144240012830/the-accords-were-always-a-disaster-in-the-making
UN is shit.
>>82770766
>They entered a foreign nation with military arms and we're shown to have informed no one at the start of civil war.
Well that other guy wasn't
>>82770665
You moron Cap's gripes were not about accountability. they were about control
Thanos is going to blow up like a dozen countries because the president of Bumfuckistan needs to call Ross who needs to give Tony and Vision the go ahead to fly in foreign airspace.
>>82770745
Wasn't talking about Steve's later actions. Just that his immediate response to the accords is ' the best hands are our own' and wouldn't accept any restrictions on military actions he performed in foreign nation. And people completely agree with that. A fuck you I do what I want to any nation saying 'hey could you not come in here and blow shit up without our say so or so much as telling us.'
Nah Steve is so great he should do as he pleases
>>82770885
>The best hands are our own
the best hands ARE their own.
>>82770957
And every nation should bow to that and allow his hands free reign cos he's so swell.
>>82770777
Wow, this is a good read.
>>82771046
Name someone in the MCU better suited to control the Avengers than the Avengers.
>>82770957
Seriously. For fucks sake people this isnt Injustice, they're not going around taking over countries. All they've done is
>stop an alien invasion
>stop a killbot rampage
>stop a terrorist from getting his hands on a bioweapon
>>82770957
You're thinking about this the wrong way, you're not putting yourself in THEIR universe.
You're in your own mind where you KNOW captain america is ultimately good because he's a comic book hero, but if you're in their world you wouldn't have that information.
>>82771046
Where was every other nation when the killer robots, invisible rail-cannon helicarriers, electric powered super soldiers and aliens showed up?
>>82771087
The leaders of the nation's they enter to perform military action. You know like they do their own police and military. Should the nations leaders, government's, and representatives have no say in who strides in their back yard and blows shit up?
>>82768668
So great.
>>82770885
Again, the initial positions actually make sense.
Cap has just spent two movies seeing the sheer amount of shit that big organizations can get around to, so he believes power is better administered by individuals, that then get dealt with individually according to their actions.
Tony has spent the last movies seeing what a single person's fuckups (primarily his own) can cause, so he believes that these things should be decided by more than a couple individuals, to avoid more of said fuckups.
Both positions, on their face, are appropriate for the characters. The problem comes later, as the Accords are clearly shown to be a pile of inefficient, controlling political tripe instead of legitimate monitoring, and for some reason nobody in the movie actually says this, instead preferring to argue about their feelings.
>>82771115
If I were in that universe, I wouldn't trust the government either. The Avengers saved NYC from being nuked not by aliens but by the world security council. Shield and the US government was full of Hydra agents that were planning on sniping millions of people from the sky based on an algorithm. If I lived in the MCU, I'd hate the government more than I do now.
>>82768544
Why the fuck you shitheads always have to do this little "I like Tony? Am I wrong?" thing just to get some validation.
Stick to your guns, wonder you're a Tonyfag.
Also way to bring the Tony/Steve wuz wrong/right shit to this thread faggot.
>>82771115
But they do. Cap has been on the winning and nearly-objectively morally right side of every conflict he's ever been a part of. They have literally no reason not to trust him.
>>82771217
Nothing about the Accords would have stopped Tony from creating Ultron.
>>82771115
I'm in their world. I still live in Pennsylvania, and their actions have still led to the prevention of billions of deaths. But no, I think they should have to file forms to be sent to a committee of babbling bureaucrats that are in the pockets of various corporate entities on whether or not they should go save Mongolia.
>>82771199
Just about every single thing we've seen the Avengers do, the local military could not handle. So yeah, I want to see the Royal Marine Commandos take on Thanos.
While we're on the topic - is Zola dead? Or did he escape into the Internet like Jarvis?
>>82771246
Yep. See: ineffective political tripe.
>>82771291
Dead until proven otherwise.
>>82771237
Motherfucker how can you just so blindly trust an enhanced individual and not suspect that they might eventually turn because they're consumed by their own power?
There's nothing wrong with putting some sort of restrictions on that kind of power
Either way, this is all fucking pointless because the actual UN is completely useless and incapable and the Accords are still a terrible idea
>>82771291
Probably dead but they have an easy in if they wanna bring him back.
>>82771289
>Just about every single thing we've seen the Avengers do, the local military could not handle
The US military could have taken the Chitauri. That alien invasion was embarrassingly weak. I don't know why the World Security Council decided to nuke the city.
>>82771317
You say this as if governments of the world COULD stop the Avengers if they did what you assume.
>>82771355
Because writing is hard.
>>82771115
>be random civilian
>read about how Captain America prevented New York from getting nuked during World War 2
>2012
>aliens start raining down from a big hole in the sky above New York
>suddenly Captain Fucking America jumps right out of a goddamn history book and punches them in the dick
>2014
>hear on the news that Captain America is wanted for assassination and could be armed and dangerous
>3 days later he swoops in out of nowhere, shoves the biggest conspiracy in human history into the spotlight, and prevents the Secretary of Defense from killing 20 million people in one fell swoop
>implying you wouldn't be worshipping him as the one true God at that point
>>82771355
it would have taken them an hour to get there.
>>82771426
Like it has been said, If Captain America came to your door, and told you he needed your help, there's not a single fucking person that would say no.
>>82771295
plus the fact that AI research was never brought up. Take away his Iron Man armor, and that's not going to stop him from creating a genocidal program that jumps into the internet.
>>82771317
Asking us to not trust Captain America because he might be bad is like asking us to not flip a double-headed coin because it might turn up tails. Other coins may turn up tails, but not this one. We know that because it is visibly different and historically reliable.
Nothing about Steve Rogers, in universe or out, has given us any indication that he cannot be trusted.
>>82771571
This. If I heard that Captain America was arrested for aiding the escape of the man that bombed the UN, I'd be wondering who actually bombed the UN.
>>82768470
Or-or a movie where he has telekinesis.
Yeah, that would be nice.
>Trusting the group of people that saved the word(Twice) and the man that saved the world from Hydra on two different occasions
>Trusting the UN
Toughest choice I've ever made
>>82771468
This is another thing that bothered me. Like, look, even acting independently and rashly as fuck, the avengers just about BARELY manage to get there on time to save the world most of the time. Conventional response could take hours they do not have.
If you make them not able to begin moving until after the danger is clear and then add hours of red tape while you wake up the security councilmembers in the UN to ask for permission to deploy, Ultron is going to be already coming down with his city asteroid by the time they get there.
Remember, the UN Banned mercenaries because it lowered the odds of an african government stabilizing and developing. Mercenary forces are cheaper than a conventional army, and the money you aren't spending making sure you don't get overthrown or killed can be spent on things like education and infrastructure.
>>82771571
Except he allowed an inexperienced superhuman who worked with two different bad guys and had no qualms mentally manipulating people into doing awful shit onto his team. But yeah let's trust his judgement universally and require zero oversight.
>>82771960
Captain America sees the good in people. He saw the good in her and gave her a chance to redeem herself.
>>82771960
wow, you don't get it do you? she's less likely to hurt people on Cap's team than she is with anyone else. He did us a favor putting her on his team. That should be what they do to people in general instead of jail, you join Cap's team.
>>82772050
Yeah that's not sound reasoning.
>>82771960
And since teaming up with Cap she's been an important tool for the greater good. That's even more reason to trust him, not less.
>>82772108
Yeah fuck paying for her crimes.
>>82772122
>Trust the Judgement of Captain America
>Not Trust the Judgement of Captain America
you're making what is possibly the least compelling argument in existence, if you're telling me to go against the man who has made his name on good judgement
>>82772150
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
>>82772156
It's one thing to trust him as an individual. That doesn't mean he should be allowed to cross all borders at his whim to perform military action and be accountable to no one.
>>82772150
>not wanting her to pay for her crimes in a way that is productive
alternative is the taxpayer paying for her crimes, anon
>>82772251
you keep shifting this argument back and forth. Whenever someone counters your borders argument, then you bring up your heroes on a pedestal when that gets stuffed. Then you bring up Wanda when the pedestal got stuffed. Now you're back to borders.
>>82771513
Nevermind the fact that he wouldn't even tell his closest friends he was doing it. If AoU happened after the Accords then he'd have hidden it from the UN just like he hid it from the Avengers.
And like anon said, even if it had gone perfectly smoothly, even if Ultron had been perfectly cooperative and the Battle of Sokovia didn't happen, that's still Tony Stark taking over the world.
>>82772262
No the alternative is her not being put in the field in military operations she shouldn't be allowed to take part in.
>>82772366
So, do the taxpayers pay for her 40 consecutive life sentences, or or her execution? Both amount to the same cost, really.
>>82772122
I'd trust Cap over the worthless cretins that make up the UN any day of the fucking week. Especially if I was living in a universe where the world governments were provably susceptible to being infiltrated by the likes of fucking HYDRA.
So, we basically agree on the following
>The Avengers should be held accountable for their actions
>The Avengers should not be limited on deployment
>One particular anon in this thread is on the payroll of Thunderbolt Ross
>>82772393
That reminds me, would they have gotten a stipend of some sort from Tony's company?
AKA, does Vision have a bank account? Cause that seems like the funniest thing in existence to me
>>82772314
No one has stuffed anything. The only single argument I've heard is "I trust cap and therefore he should be allowed to go anywhere and do as he pleases".
That's it. People just mention how good and nice cap is as if that negates governments having a say in what the avengers do in their nations. Sorry that's a silly childish point of view that do sent excuse a complete lack of accountability for the avengers.
And the Wanda thing is pointin out even caps judgement is flawed and not above doing impulsive shit.
>>82772483
Hey Rhodes, how's the hairline?
>>82772483
>And the Wanda thing is pointin out even caps judgement is flawed
But it literally wasn't. Wanda's a good person and a hero. She was misguided earlier is all.
>>82772461
Well technically Vision is Tony's grandkid.
>>82772461
Does Vision exist legally speaking?
>>82772483
Nigga, if you're telling me to trust the UN, or trust something else, I'll pick something else every time. Fuck, I'd trust ISIS before I trust the UN
>>82772530
No dude, Anyone who has been down the wrong path once is stuck on that path forever. It's why Bucky Barnes is a soulless assassin, Wanda is a murderous telekenetic psychopath, and Hawkeye is just a bad person
>>82772588
This. the UN cares about themselves helping countries more than countries improving to the point where they don't need help from the UN.
>>82772530
Dude she mind fucked people in ways that had serious consequences. Including tony making ultron. In universe her being allowed to just become an avenger is riculous. Being misguided isn't really a justification.
>>82772565
I imagine so. They made him sign the accords
>>82772620
What is his legal name "Vision Henderson"?
>>82772616
Someone who admits their flaws, clearly seeks atonement, and is willing to put their life on the line to undo their mistakes deserves a second chance in my book. Especially if they have superpowers that can potentially save thousands to millions of lives.
>>82772660
"Vision Notarobot"
It's French
>>82772616
It literally would not be the first, or last time that atrocities have been ignored for someone joining their team. Hell, it wasn't even the first time in the MCU
>>82772660
Jarvis "Vision" Stark
>>82772610
Hey if I stab a guy I might get put on the right path and should be free after rehabilitation or punishment or whatever.
I shouldn't be a cop. I shouldn't be allowed to work in the white house or teach kids. Cos I stabbed a guy and that shit happened so guess what...doors closed that's life.
Wanda should be allowed to find her way and live a normal life someday. She shouldnt be doing avenger shit cos she told cap she's sorry.
>>82768125
>>82767939
This.
Telling Tony would have given him a chance to compartmentalize his grief. Him finding out WHILE BUCKY WAS IN THE ROOM and realizing Steve knew was the exact combination of worst case scenario that sent him into a fucking grief-stricken rage that nobody could talk him out of.
I kind of liked Jarvis better as a program than a caped robot. He had a better sense of humor and everything. FRIDAY just doesn't work for me
>>82772733
>I shouldn't be a cop, I shouldn't be allowed to work in the white house or teach kids
I don't see why not, to be honest. And the fact that it is that way is a real problem that creates even more problems. It's a damn shame that so many people have the mindset you posted.
>>82768315
>>82768365
top kek
>>82772122
Sure it is.
Cap was already showing them understanding when Hill was briefing him on them.
"Who in their right mind would let a german scientist experiment on them to protect their homeland?"
"We're not at war."
"They are."
And when the situation went beyond petty personal revenge against Stark, Wanda balked. Not because "You were going to destroy ME, too?!" but because "How COULD you...?!"
She's not evil, she'd just been through an extremely traumatic experience with Tony Stark's name painted all over it.
Wanda and Pietro were kids who were being led by others. First Strucker, then Ultron. As Klaue noted, they were not "the man in charge" and were just following.
When a situation occurred where innocents were in harm's way, Wanda and Pietro stepped up like good people should and saved everyone from the train instead of just moving themselves to safety. They stayed in Sokovia and fought hordes of rampaging robots, and Wanda was instrumental in the success of their attempt to save the entire fucking world.
When that was over, she didn't backstab Stark now that her own personal safety wasn't endangered. She didn't fuck off to go take care of only herself. She signed up with the team that goes in when shit is too dangerous for the combined armies of the world.
And finally, in Lagos, she went in to save Cap from the bomb vest instead of sheilding herself or running away. We can debate whether or not fewer people would have died if the vest exploded on the ground or in the building where she errantly threw Rumlow, but the fact is that people would have died either way. Wanda would not have died, she could have just shielded herself so this isn't even a "it's my planet too" situation like Sokovia. She acted to save the lives of others.
Cap was right.
>>82772147
>>82772108
It was Hawkeye, who owes a huge debt to Pietro, who urged her to come to the US and join the team, so she would not be alone and have some kind of "family". Cap then took her under his wing.
Its following the comics where Cap reformed her (and Hawkeye and Quicksilver). The person who set off the Hulk and mind-muddled people was consumed by her own pain to the point it blinded her, and she had no understanding of her powers.
To Cap Wanda is like an article of faith, of his belief in people and the good in people. He sees her potential for enormous good. He believes in her and that helps her to believe in herself.
>>82769633
Not only that but we can see their deaths were painful and even scary.
>>82772839
Because power clearly already allows people to do fucked up shit. They shouldn't let those with histories of instability or dangerous life ending actions be put into positions of power because "people should be more trusting"
