He was wrong, /co/
Both sides were wrong since they were both the extremes of their political side.
>>82687974
True, but Stark was wrong on more points than Cap.
>>82687993
Not really.
Caps whole point about how regulations come from people with agendas and biases was crazy hypocritical and basically implies he, a guy from a different time, is perfect.
Everyone was equally retarded you just see the ones that are more on your side as less retarded.
Cap was wrong for not telling Tony.
>>82688009
But I'd be against the accords, despite being pro gun control. The movie is a huge analog for gun control
Bucky did kill his parents. Can't argue that.
>>82688035
No, Hydra killed Stark's parents using Bucky's body (completely out of his control, no-less) as a vessel in which to do it
>>82687742
Right about accords, wrong about bucky, right to be pissed at cap for not telling him about his parents
>>82688022
I didn't think so at all.
More like nukes.
Guns are already everywhere in the hands of 12 year old farm kids, gang members, police, survivalists, sport shooters, Detroit, the military, and Dick Cheney
Hell they use about 100 different guns in this movie and no one says a peep about "guns r bad"
>>82688064
>right about the accords
He had the right issues to be brought up, the problem is the accords solve literally none of them and only make it harder to save lives. As demonstrated by Stark having to go behind Ross's back when he was going to stop Zemo.
>>82687742
he dragged a kid into an armed conflict. of course he was wrong.
>>82688047
So you wouldn't want to kill the guy?
After seeing that video you would just go "well he was brainwashed"
God I am happy I am not related to you.
>>82688098
I dunno to me this seems to be more about accountability.
Like we expect soldiers and police officers to follow rules and if they fuck up they are held accountable.
Of course he was, the only person who was right in the comics was Reed Richards, but he wasn't in the movie.
Come to think of it, Reed Richards is literally always right about everything.
>>82688064
I will say this, in THEORY, the accords are a great idea. But it adds a lot of red tape that can easily stop the Avengers from doing what needs to be done. And the angles in which the accords were made were completely out of tune
>Look at all these damages in Avenger related events! Like that time the Avengers saved tens of millions of lives in an alien invasion, or when some Avengers saved millions of lives and saved the world from Hydra rule, or when the Avengers saved the world from human extinction at the hands of a genocidal AI!
The accords had the right ideas at heart, but there's just no way it could work in execution, when you have miles of bureaucratic red tape and dozens of agendas that will clash and conflict all the time.
>>82688111
I didn't say Cap was right in not telling him, or Stark was wrong in not wanting to beat the pulp out of Bucky. I said that Bucky himself didn't kill Mr. and Mrs. Stark.
>>82688135
RIIIICHAAARDS!!! Remove your petty existence from this thread!
>>82688122
But the accords don't even address that, when they run and are eventually brought in the heroes aren't treated as felons. They're thrown in the rift to rot. Or put under house arrest for defending themselves.
Say a shoot out was happening between the police and some other people and a grenade is thrown to one of the cops who's surrounded by civilians. On instinct he throws it away from everyone but it still blows up and kills people.
A cop in the same instance wouldn't face any sort of trial, he would probably just be put on leave for a bit. No chance of house arrest. Hell, a regular civilian probably wouldn't face charges at that stage.
>if they fuck up they are held accountable
Not to the same standard as the populace.
>>82688216
>A cop in the same instance wouldn't face any sort of trial,
Are you insane?
A cop that throws a life granade into a building and kills a few people to safe maybe more people on the street wouldn't face any sort of trial?
You mean he wouldn't face any sort of trial since they would just fire him without letting him even defend himself, right?
>>82688216
>he throws it away from everyone but it still blows up and kills people
This means he murdered those people.
the Nuremberg trial concluded that given the choice between obeying the rules that say to do bad things, or breaking the rules to do good things, the former is morally abhorrent.
when the rules said 'obey the man issuing the order to kill an innocent man' Cap was right to break the rules to protect that innocent man and do everything he could to keep him alive.
Even if Bucky was guilty for the death of T'chaka, it still would have right for Cap to keep Bucky alive that he could receive a fair trial, and do everything he could that Bucky's punishment was not disproportionate for the crime.
>>82688241
>the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
That is the definition of murder. The case of Bucky Barnes killing the Starks is a muddy one because of the brainwashed mind control. A cop throwing a grenade away from civilians he sees and inadvertently killing civilians he doesn't is not murder.
UN in real life is a joke. Tony was wrong.
>>82688298
Yeah murder involves intend.
Manslaughter/Homicide is also against the law.
>>82688298
>killing civilians he doesn't
You're telling me that if I throw a grenade inside building then I'm not a murderer because I didn't see the people that were inside?
Never trust a Stark.
>>82688298
>>82688241
Murder = Intent
Manslaughter = Accidental
>>82688336
Who the hell are you?
>>82688323
and you can make the case that his intent to save lives far outweighs his accidental killing of others. See: Justifiable homicide
>>82688332
Two questions.
1. Are you throwing the grenade away from people, and it happens to land in an occupied building, or are you intentionally aiming the grenade into a known populated building?
2. Are you also suggesting that Wanda intended to throw crossbones into the building?
>>82688216
>A cop in the same instance wouldn't face any sort of trial, he would probably just be put on leave for a bit. No chance of house arrest. Hell, a regular civilian probably wouldn't face charges at that stage.
What shithole of a country do you live in?
>>82687742
He was wrong about being wrong
>>82688363
>and you can make the case that his intent to save lives far outweighs his accidental killing of others.
You could.
you could also make the case that the cop wouldn't be good pr for race relations.
>remember this shit happenend in a different country
It wouldn't be good for international relations.
>one of them is literally wearing an american flag costume.
It is fucking insane that you think america should let these people run around unsupervised.
>>82688363
1. Let's say that I didn't know the building was populated I just felt like throwing the grenade inside.
Technically I didn't intent to murder anyone.
2. Wanda saved those people in the marker (and Cap) but she's also responsible for killing Wakandians inside that building.
>>82688363
This is getting a little more complicated because there is no reason wanda couldn't have just held him up even higher or just contained the explosion in a bubble. We saw her do more impressive shit later.
>>82688339
There are technical situations, any deaths during the commission of a felony put the suspect in line for a murder charge, even if they weren't the one that killed the person.
Dunno how technical this conversation should get though, we don't really know much about the accords either, and Tony was kind of suggesting they could still mess with it to some degree, but they had to at least sign it and shit.
You're telling me that you would be ok if a superpowered entity in real life could just roam around to where ever they want to do what ever they want without needing to at least check in with some governing body?
What happens if Hulk suddenly decides to wipe Hong Kong or Madrid from the face of the planet? They don't know where Bruce Banner is. The Avengers don't even have finding Banner on their to-do list apparently because Cap just shrugs Ross off.
It's ridiculous to just trust in some group of people, a group that can't even agree within itself, that has no obligation to even listen to the very people they protect
>>82688047
>No, Hydra killed Stark's parents using Bucky's body (completely out of his control, no-less) as a vessel in which to do it
Eh, I'm not sure that's valid. HYDRA turned Bucky into a guy who killed Tony's parents. It wasn't even mind-control cosmic energy like Loki's staff. It was electric shocks and implanting of trigger words, and such, to make him compliant with their orders. So "it wasn't him" isn't quite valid. It was a version of him, and it was who he became, and it was clear in Civil War that that guy is still there.
>>82688407
In your hypothetical situation you're a danger to the well-being of others, and committing acts of terror. In the cop hypothetical He's taking a grenade thrown by another, and throwing it away from people in his immediate area in an attempt to save them. Though it should be stated that it's more likely someone would jump on it than throw it.
As for your second part, you are correct. But in a fair court of law, would she be imprisoned, given all the surrounding circumstances?
>>82688402
America? Maybe. 117(177?) squabbling nations? No way.
>>82688449
>It's clear the guy is still there
Trapped inside a body being commanded by Zemo. It was established in Winter Soldier that they had to freeze him, or reset his brain after a certain time because Bucky would come back to.
>>82688448
>What happens if Hulk suddenly decides to wipe Hong Kong or Madrid from the face of the planet?
That's a pretty glaring reason that they need responsible, trustworthy superheroes who can respond quickly, not unreliable ones who are just fine to keep operating as long as they do what a governing body says.
>>82688344
Aw come on.
>>82688462
>America? Maybe. 117(177?) squabbling nations? No way.
Okay and what should america do to appease the now pissed United Nations and that african country and probably most of its own populace after the guy dressed in their flag killed some black people in afrika?
Maybe some almost meaningless rules set up by the united nations for example.
Nah we can't have that. That would be literally hitler.
>>82688468
>responsible, trustworthy superheroes
how do we know they are?
The Avengers weren't elected. They were hired as a taskforce by SHIELD, a government agency. Now that SHIELD is down, the Avengers don't exist.
>>82688468
So our cops really aren't that great and we should have free working cops removed from the goverment?
Also PMCs would be better than standing armies for the same reason.
>we should just believe in the Avengers to do the right thing
>The Avengers with Wanda on it
>Wanda "X the X-Gene" Maximoff
>>82688462
>But in a fair court of law, would she be imprisoned, given all the surrounding circumstances?
Fair to whom?
I'm pretty sure people would want her to be imprisoned for killing their kin.
>>82688468
Now, is your definition of "responsible, trustworthy superheroes" the same as mine? How about the hundreds of political ideals of the nations of the accord?
>>82688488
>meaningless rules
meaningless rules are a big deal in the global political landscape
>>82688462
>or reset his brain after a certain time because Bucky would come back to
They had to keep wiping him to make sure the old memories didn't resurface, but old Bucky is kind of gone dude. He can reminisce with Steve about the good old days now, and maybe even rebuild a life for himself, but his fight in Bucharest shows the way he's changed.
>>82688507
>meaningless rules are a big deal in the global political landscape
So is killing people in a different country.
>>82688468
If the powered individual is avoiding arrest and trial for whatever reason, he is a menace to the public, you cant just "hope" he is a good guy, especially now that everyone in the government is aware that mind control is possible in so many ways
>lokis staff (mind stone)
>killgrave experiment
>inhumans like Hive
>>82688491
>how do we know they are?
By past experience.
>>82688514
You know what's bigger than inadvertently killing people in a foreign land? a terrorist cell creating and using a biological weapon on population centers.
>>82688507
>How about the hundreds of political ideals of the nations of the accord?
do any of those ideals include "Let the Hulk rampage through my country?" If not, than you can shut up, because that's what I was talking about.
>>82688519
The Avengers don't exactly have a clean record. Tony CREATED the Sokovia incident
>>82688525
This is not a "bigger than" situation. It is not a zero-sum game.
Just like murder being worse than manslaughter does not mean that manslaughter is okay the reasons for something being done don't excuse the execution.
>>82688531
That was on tony, and he should have faced trial for that, the rest however were on shield and shield is gone (to the public at least)
>>82688531
So what would make you believe I meant Tony when I said "responsible heroes" then?
>>82688550
Is Tony not on the Avengers?
>>82688540
You can't make your case of a situation, but leave out crucial details. And there are more terms in one person killing another than murder and manslaughter.
>>82688550
Tony does his best to cooperate with the government and make the masses trust him, because he is aware of how the world works, and having no military hunt him will give him freedome to do his best to help people
>>82688546
>shield is gone
yeah, so who do the Avengers answer to now?
No one. And that is dangerous.
>>82688564
Point is that SOMETHING would happen. At least a court case of some kind. People died. That usually comes with it.
You making the defense for it or justifying it does not mean it would just fly over and have no consequences.
That is retarded.
Nobody is saying they are necessary guilty. But something would have to change.
>>82688573
I agree, they should be hired directly by interpol as a peace keeping agency
>>82688573
I don't answer to the government, but I can still be tried and held responsible for any crimes I commit. What's preventing the UN from holding them accountable after they screw up on a case by case basis?
>>82688516
>If the powered individual is avoiding arrest and trial for whatever reason, he is a menace to the public, you cant just "hope" he is a good guy, especially now that everyone in the government is aware that mind control is possible in so many ways
What are you arguing? This is EXACTLY why you need to put situations like Bucky in the hands of superheroes, and not send human kill-squads after them, to deal with the incident by saying "shoot on sight". It's a dangerous precedent to set, just killing a suspect because they're a superhuman. Another powered person, or at the very least, assisted by advanced technology like War Machine can diffuse the situation without loss of life, because hey're less likely to fear for theirs. That's why they needed a middle ground the Sokovia accords didn't provide.
Why not just reform SHIELD
Arguably with government oversight, they would remove Hulk from the Avengers and put him in protective custody or at least relocate him.
Hulk did that by himself, but that's not the same. What if Hulk didn't leave? The person responsible for death, DIRECTLY responsible (or Wanda if you want to make it like that) would still be walking around free.
>>82688561
see
>>82688468
>That's a pretty glaring reason that they need responsible, trustworthy superheroes who can respond quickly
Never said "everyone on the Avengers team"
Wanda basically got the same immunities that various high ranking Nazis got after WWII. She is considered a valuable enough asset to offset the bad she did
>>82688597
They were allowed to kill Bucky on sight because he was on the run for murdering hundreds of people throughout history, surely if he gives in and surrenders noone is gonna shoot him, just like normal criminals, but the problem here was the arrest resist
>>82688604
They have, its called ATCU and secretly answers to SHIELD by presidents decision
>>82688589
Do you also go on missions?
>>82688569
Tony had already proven the risks of granting him that kind of power already. I mean, I guess it's fine to have him if you're not actually going to let the capes DO anything of their own volition, but that doesn't solve problems. It's not flexible enough. You need to have people you can trust, and trust people that you have. If someone can't show they have enough judgement a superhero NEEDS TO HAVE to make the kind of decisions a superhero needs to make, and needs to be allowed to make, then they should not be enfolded into an overly restrictive system that gives their power to some governing body, they should be dismissed.
>>82688609
If they don't follow the law then they are virtually indistinguishable from the super villains.
As long as they think they are right.
>>82687742
So what would he and the world do once Thor refused to sign the treaty?
>>82688672
shrug their shoulders because there's literally nothing they can do.
>>82688637
>but the problem here was the arrest resist
That's exactly why you need to trust that to people who are more capable than an officer with a gun. The problem is that the world was starting to react with knee-jerk fear to powerful people, and restrict their power.
>>82688672
Falcon could try to seduce thor.
They are a couple in the comics right?
Cap was the Confederates in the War of Northern Aggression
>>82688672
Wouldnt he be treated like an immigrant?
>>82687974
They weren't really extreme, they were just both flawed. There is no clean solution for the issue they tried to solve.
Wrong about the accords being compulsory. There was no reason they couldn't all decide to sign or not sign individually, which is I guess where the movie ended up anyway, basically.
Right about the need for oversight, but wrong in the sense that oversight would have changed the events of the movie's opening OR AoU in any meaningful way, assuming he'll allow the UN administration to oversee his personal projects or those of Stark Industries.
Also wrong in the sense that the events of TWS should have demonstrated that the worlds' governments are perfectly capable of creating possibly world-ending catastrophes on their own.
Wrong about killing Bucky, right that he needed to be pursued and captured.
>>82688216
>But the accords don't even address that, when they run and are eventually brought in the heroes aren't treated as felons.
People under investigation are often told that they can't leave the state/country. Wanda was under investigation cause dozens died.
They didn't get thrown in the raft for breaking the accords alone. They aided and abetted a wanted international fugitive and blew up an airport doing so. That's illegal as fuck.
>>82688316
>UN in real life is a joke. Tony was wrong.
The UN in the marvel universe can get troops to Berlin and ready to breech a room as fast as Captain America can get there. That's no joke.
>>82688906
I've heard people say Berlin for Vienna, and Berlin for Bucharest. Berlin was the airport.
>>82688525
>You know what's bigger than inadvertently killing people in a foreign land? a terrorist cell creating and using a biological weapon on population centers.
And the avengers damn near deployed the biological agent themselves. This was after the took on armed mercenaries in one of those population centers.
>>82688597
>It's a dangerous precedent to set, just killing a suspect because they're a superhuman.
He's not only superhuman he has a body count in about the triple digits. 6 seconds in. Bucky killed cops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXPOl6EjbWg
He's a dangerous felon, damn near unstoppable by mere humans. He can outrun cars. His hand can rend steel. He's a real deal menace to society. The precedent is that a man who brazenly kills people in the middle of the street and can't even be handcuffed pretty much deserves to be shot. Yeah, he might have been brainwashed. But once he came to his senses he refused to turn himself in.
Rogers a shit , fucker should start appreciating the friends he made in the present time and move on from his past.
His life is a joke.
>>82688672
>So what would he and the world do once Thor refused to sign the treaty?
People act like Earth can't do anything to people of Thor's caliber. I willing to bet that isn't so.
>>82688981
>6 seconds in. Bucky killed cops.
Those cops don't matter more than anyone else who died. Just say he killed people. Who cares if they were cops or not?
>>82688991
>refuses to sign treaty
>instantly nuked
Eh, I'd believe it
>>82688983
He only lost Buck for two years in his life because he was frozen. And he was childhood friends with Buckster. It's pretty reasonable.
Like tony, you're wrong.
>>82688983
I believe he would have been more reasonable, had Peggy not just died as well.
>>82689053
>I believe he would have been more reasonable
You mean let them kill Bucky? That's what you mean by reasonable?
>>82688111
So you're trying to tell me if we were brothers and a guy was literally mind controlled to murder you with a gun you'd DEMAND that I go up to the clearly repentant guy who hates that he was FORCED into doing it and fucking blow his brains out?
How fucked up of a person can you be? Like honestly. It's one thing for you to go "Tony was very emotional and I can see why he attempted to harm Bucky even knowing the truth of his mind control" but to go "God I am happy I am not related to you seeing as you wouldn't want to kill the person being forced into killing me so you can AVENGE me".
Like honestly what the fuck?
>"Do it anon murder that pregnant woman who killed me after having a gun to her head she's 100% at fault here" says the psychopath ghost of brother anon
>>82689009
>Those cops don't matter more than anyone else who died. Just say he killed people. Who cares if they were cops or not?
In a thread where everyone's arguing that it's awfully mean of the government to give "shoot on sight" orders, it bears mentioning that he has killed cops.
>>82689024
>Eh, I'd believe it
He might be bullet resistant but the Ultrons gave him a decent fight. That's basically Stark-tech. I bet there's a gun on Earth that'll put a hole in him large enough to store that hammer of his.
>>82689104
>In a thread where everyone's arguing that it's awfully mean of the government to give "shoot on sight" orders, it bears mentioning that he has killed cops
No it doesn't. It means they'd be more likely to give a kill on sight order, sure, but does nothing to justify it.
>>82688448
I think Steve Rogers should be the governing body other superheroes answer to
>>82688981
The kind of things you're saying are the kind of things that sound reasonable at first, until people decide to simply apply them to slightly wider and wider circumstances. The precedent of "This person is a superhuman we think committed crimes, so we should take them out immediately" is knee-jerk and unnecessary when you have superhumans on your side who could be easily trusted to subdue the person. But I'd already mentioned that
It's like I'm saying things, and you're not listening at all. "He's dangerous. He's dangerous. He's dangerous" So what? So now we're just going to abandon the justice system for "dangerous" people? They don't need the protection of the laws anymore because they make governments scared? They have an out, they only used it as a last resort when Rhodey came in. Their first response was to kill him immediately.
>>82689123
>I think Steve Rogers should be the governing body other superheroes answer to
That shit goes immediately to his head then he's all AvX and taking advice from Murderine.
>>82688448
>They don't know where Bruce Banner is. The Avengers don't even have finding Banner on their to-do list apparently because Cap just shrugs Ross off.
Ross is the one who lost the Hulk in the first place. If anyone should be held accountable for keeping tabs on it, it's him. His "well, if I lost a nuke" bullshit is a total joke and just proves that "accountability" doesn't really mean anything to these people.
>>82689149
>The precedent of "This person is a superhuman we think committed crimes, so we should take them out immediately
If the precedent is just murdered people in old blood on the street in broad daylight and plenty of witnesses I'm sure other superheroes would survive.
>"He's dangerous. He's dangerous. He's dangerous" So what?
Laffo.
>>82688047
Even fucking Bucky says he's dangeroua and freezes his ass, Iron Man was righ
>>82689157
Him being a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong. He might not be the best person to say it but he's not wrong.
I'd like to see any of these guys tell the troops in whichever unit they were from that they're going to try to take in a super=powered assassin that kicked the shit out of Captain America alive.
"Whatever you do troops, don't shoot at this super human mass murderer. You probably wouldn't be able to hit him anyway since he's faster than a car. He has rights you know. I know that we didn't train you guys for non-lethal combat, but this guy kills every cop he sees. You'll find all the batons and pepper spray you can carry in the truck. Good luck!"
It would be quicker to just shoot the troops in the back at base.
>>82689401
>Him being a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong.
Are we giving Ross shit for not being able to do what all the Avengers working together probably couldn't do? The Hulk is kind of unstoppable. Hell, Banner can't kill him either.
>>82688111
fuck off norman osborn
>>82689353
>If the precedent is just murdered people in old blood on the street in broad daylight
That doesn't mean anything. That is literally nonsense you just said. The "precedent" is set when you decide how you're going to respond to the situation, and the way they decided is "If we think this guy committed a crime, and he's an enhanced person who might kill people if we try to arrest him, the appropriate course of action is to kill on sight."
>>82687742
Yeah, and that's a disappointment because Russos promised us a 50/50, they failed us on that point.
>>82689478
they should turn around and arrest Ross for his treasonous orders
>>82689495
This Hulk's not unstoppable. Tony was able to knock him out with his Hulkbuster mecha.
>>82688336
Go home Pym, you're drunk.
>>82689518
if they failed, you wouldn't have people defending him
>there are people that would try to kill Bucky for what he was mind controlled into doing
Explain yourselves.
>>82689517
>That doesn't mean anything. That is literally nonsense you just said.
Bucky literally murdered two people in the clip I linked earlier. He did it in the middle of the street. In broad daylight. The statement means something because it described exactly what Bucky did.
>>82689517
>The "precedent" is set when you decide how you're going to respond to the situation
And I said that the situation is a superpowered person killing people in the middle of a public street in broad daylight. Your slippery slope isn't all that slippery. There's a fuckload of gradient between a man gunning down people in the street and whatever you think the word precedent means.
>>82689543
>Tony was able to knock him out with his Hulkbuster mecha.
When he was distracted and sad. Hulk being sad is like his kryptonite.
>>82688013
On hand, Tony was wrong and him going nuts goes against everything he stood for but the same could be argued for Cap about this.
This was literally Steve's biggest blunder in the entire film. For all his insistence on transparency, truth, and the desire/call for justice throughout the film, he basically set himself up for Tony Stark to have an understandable reason to go berserk. It's like the entire final battle was set up to use either side's argument and have them blow up in each others faces.
>>82689594
your rights end where my feelings begin
>>82689594
>there are are people who can't grasp the concept of experiencing a fit of rage even if they saw a footage of Bucky brutally murdering their loved one/kin, especially when one of your buddies knowingly kept this from you the entire time
I mean he was wrong but come the fuck on.
>>82689614
I thought Hulk being sad led to KLUH
>>82689656
we're largely talking about Ross, not Tony
>>82689656
If I was really so angry and I'm in fucking Iron Man armor I'd just go blow up unimportant shit until I calmed down, I wouldn't even think about attacking Bucky, because he did nothing wrong.
>>82689693
Ah fair enough, then yeah I agree.
>>82689711
Not saying that Tony was right (he was definitely wrong), but his anger was understandable given the very specific circumstances of his situation and relationship with Steve.
>>82689595
>whatever you think the word precedent means
precedent : something done or said that can be used as an example or rule to be followed in the future
Weber's definition.
I think you're fooling yourself if you think Ross getting away with exterminating Bucky by killing him outright, with no arrest effort wouldn't tell him that he has the justification to do the same in the future, if an enhanced individual is considered a threat.
Anyone else find it almost irredeemably stupid that Cap would take Bucky with him into the secret lair where the man with the trigger words was hanging out? If Zemo had a loudspeaker or a megaphone he could have had them try to kill each other while he drank coffee.
>>82689748
honestly the thought never crossed my mind until you mentioned it just now
yes he was, but so was Cap
i think that's why this movie was so frustrating (but also so good) because Tony hadn't react the way he did when he wouldn't be full of guilt and Cap hadn't reacted the way he did when he wasn't so full of nostalgia
but let's be honest Tony will save the world in IW like he did in the first Avengers movie to balance his guilt out
>>82689748
Why didn't Bucky just cover his ears
>>82689748
...Damn. Maybe Cap's judgement really was skewed.
>>82689748
whenever someone started saying the words, all I could think of was the 'words to reach heaven' from Stone Ocean
>>82688009
What are you talking about? In their very first conversation about it he said they weren't perfect.
>>82689748
yeah thats true, god i was so frustrated with Cap the whole movie
>>82689765
>but let's be honest Tony will save the world in IW like he did in the first Avengers movie to balance his guilt out
Maybe they both will. For all we know they might reenact a version ofthis scene
>>82687742
But anon he was right
Cap was so wrong all he could see was Bucky's ass
>>82689748
>If Zemo had a loudspeaker or a megaphone he could have had them try to kill each other while he drank coffee.
And ate bacon.
>>82689740
>if an enhanced individual is considered a threat.
If the enhanced individual murders people in the middle of a public street, in broad daylight like Bucky did in front of god and everyone then maybe that's a precedent that's not going to get applied to other people. If it does, then my heart will not bleed for them.
The precedent isn't they're enhanced and dangerous, it's that they're obviously murderers, everyone saw them murder the shit out of people, and they're too much for cops and too much for troops to handle. After all, we saw what happens when cops get too close to Bucky. We also saw how well troops did against him.
The rule is as follows: if a guy murders the shit out of people in front of god and everybody and can't be stopped by cops or even conventional troops (or murders them like he does), then the gloves *have to* come off.
That's a far cry from your "they'll start murdering enhanced jaywalkers!"
>>82689854
>The precedent isn't they're enhanced and dangerous, it's that they're obviously murderers, everyone saw them murder the shit out of people, and they're too much for cops and too much for troops to handle. After all, we saw what happens when cops get too close to Bucky. We also saw how well troops did against him.
Then why do you keep supporting their plan of sending german police after him?
>>82689748
I mean all Bucky would need to do is cover his ears. He couldn't do so when restrained.
I don't get why they don't just let cap do what he wants. He's a good guy so who cares about borders or accountability? If someone did good stuff in the past we should give them carte Blanche to do as they please and hope for the best. After all one time shield got infiltrated by hydra. So you can't trust the un and should allow unilateral intervention by whoever because we like them.
>>82689559
Those people are Ironmanletfags, What do you expect?
I love people claiming the accords are wrong because of ross' and Tony 's prior actions.
>psychopath stabs woman, is imprisoned and eventually released.
> later while walking down the street he sees a crime and calls for help
>cop runs up
>former killer goes "holy shit that guy over there is stabbing a child"
>cop almost arrests the child stabbed but stops
>"waiiiiit a minute. You once killed someone...nah I can't trust you're judgement on this. That man should be free to act as he sees fit"
>>82688672
since Thor is part of the royal family of Asgard doesn't that technically give him diplomatic immunity
>>82689153
Yeah but AvX was garbage
>>82689959
>in the past
Times change. Modern folks have different sensibilities. We have less faith in human decency for one.
What I don't get is Hawkeye isn't held responsible for Loki's mind control but bucky is?
Why didn't Steve bring that up? "Hey, Clint killed a bunch of people because of Loki, but we're cool with that but not this?"
>>82688983
its kinda easy to understand Caps position in the film
>literally fought off nazis and mad scientists to prevent hydra from taking over, sacrificing himself in the process
>gets frozen and wakes up in the future
>the girl he loves is close to death
>his best friend has been turned into a weapon to assassinate people
>everything he fought for was for no real reason since hydra managed to win and take over shield
>now he meets a man who believes the avengers should sign the accords, which in fact is actually throwing away freedom by choosing security which described by arnim zola in the second captain america movie is the exact same shit hydra was pulling
>>82690072
Clint didn't flee after regaining his own mind back. Also why do People think morality has shit to do with bringing Bucky in. He was dangerous. That's why they went in with lethal force. Being brainwashed doesn't mean he isn't a danger to everyone around him. In fact Bucky himself concedes he still is dangerous.
>>82690097
they didnt want to bring him in
they wanted to kill him
>>82690091
Except not being allowed t perform unsanctioned international military operations with deadly super beings without some oversight isn't...signing away your freedom.
>>82688336
>>82688344
>>82688470
Tony was being a giANT douche in that scene.
>>82690109
They were authorized to kill him. They preferred to capture him. Either way, the threat is removed.
>>82690123
it is, because it means this oversight gets to pick and choose what missions the avengers should be for
and that could include doing something less important and when something more important is going on
>>82690109
Yeah with good reason. This is a guy prisons don't hold well who has killed hundreds and as far as they know blew up a building. Brainwashed or no if you send in troops with kid gloves in you get dead troops.
>>82690072
it's kinda bullshit that Hawkeye gets off for all the shit he did, Ironman gets off for all the weapons he gave to terrorists and such, Wanda got off for making the Hulk go on a rampage but Bucky doesn't get off for something he had no control over?
>>82690145
Dude regular people can't jet to foreign nations and blow shit up acting as their own personal peace keepers with no accountability. There's no reason wearing a fucking costume should make that okay.
did anyone else thought that the storyline was too dark for Tony, can he ever recover without trying to kill himself?
>>82689895
>Then why do you keep supporting their plan of sending german police after him?
They might have had a better shot had not Captain cock-block been kicking them in the dick. They ran into 2 enhanced guys when they expected 1.
>>82689919
>I mean all Bucky would need to do is cover his ears.
Unless he was blocking them with a drill he'd still hear the words. Hell, if something's loud enough bone conduction carries the sound just as well.
>>82689959
>I don't get why they don't just let cap do what he wants.
Zemo impersonated Bucky well enough to start a huge manhunt. Next any old asshole can become Captain Ameribro and do whatever in the fuck.
>>82690020
>since Thor is part of the royal family of Asgard doesn't that technically give him diplomatic immunity
Diplomatic immunity is something given to countries you have diplomatic relations with. The only dimplomacy Asgard gave Earth was making America the place their boys can sow their wild oats.
>>82690109
>they didnt want to bring him in
>they wanted to kill him
They wanted to eliminate the threat. Once he was subdued they took him in alive. I'd like to see a bunch of non-powered people try to take assassin triggered Bucky in alive. Might as well feed those troops directly into a meat grinder.
>>82690229
>did anyone else thought that the storyline was too dark for Tony, can he ever recover without trying to kill himself?
I'm sure Tony will console himself with his fast cars and faster women. He might just pull through.
>>82690269
but that's not who he is anymore, he could easily done this instead of brooding about Pepper
>>82687742
Am I wrong to think the whole accords thing was ridiculously easy to solve: Tony wanted to make sure they had the authority to go in when something happens, Steve doesn't want to risk being misused: so have a clause instated that the avengers can refuse to take an assignment they can't morally support! No possibility of abusing them, but when they have the go-ahead they have the UN in the back.
There I just solved the Sokovia accords
>>82690294
>but that's not who he is anymore, he could easily done this instead of brooding about Pepper
When you're "on a break" that means other chicks are in play. Trust me, other dudes are in play over on her side of the break.
>>82687742
Nah he was right. Cap fucked over so many people lives in this movie, not worthy of that shield at all.
>>82690254
>Unless he was blocking them with a drill he'd still hear the words
Or headphones. Just blast some heavy metal and he won't hear shit.
Right or Wrong, whether you like him or not, Tony is literally the best MCU character/hero/villain.
Prove me wrong.
>>82690302
Uh... then the accords basically don't fucking exist. It's like saying "the law is easy, just have a clause where if you break the law, you can just ignore it but if you're following the law, everything is fine"
What happens when a country doesn't want you interfering? Cap will definitely want to come and help but he has no jurisdiction.
>>82690613
I won't deny that after Civil War, a lot of his buildup and development felt so worth it, and I felt like it's truly reached it's peak in this film.
>>82687742
If this was a real-world issue, he'd be right.
But it's a cape comics issue, so he can't be right. If he really was right, almost all cape characters would be wrong.
the avengers should've be shown doing something incompetent, then I would've been more split on the argument
>>82691331
>something incompetent
>create a robot that deleted a city and almost destroyed the world
>>82689814
He also said "The best hands are still our own".
He's literally saying that he knows best.
>>82691364
>the avengers did that
>not just dickhead tony
Tony was right for three reasons.
First, as Widow said, it's better for the Avengers to take this deal now and "keep one hand on the wheel", because if they refuse the governments of the world aren't just gonna go "Okay, just keep doing whatever you guys want". They're gonna come back with a much less favorable deal, and they won't be asking nicely.
The second was brought up in DD S2. If you start looking the other way or even cheering for one person ignoring the law and taking justice into their own hands, you're opening the floodgates for many more to do the same, and many or most of them are gonna be way more dangerous and/or untrustworthy.
And lastly, when the Avengers start challenging world leaders, they're on the fast track to becoming pic related.
>>82691392
Wanda was just as responsible.
And unlike Tony, Wanda didn't have noble intentions.
Wanda also intentionally sent the Hulk to attack a city full of innocent people.
>>82688022
What do you have to gain by taking away guns? Criminals will still have them.
>>82688111
You're a piece of shit. You'd wanna force your family member to kill an innocent man just because something out of either of your control happened to you. Let me guess, you're a white woman?
>>82691392
bruce banner helped too
>>82688791
Yes there was. Sign the accords, hash out the details later when everyone is on board.
>>82691385
>He knows best.
I think he meant WE know best.
>>82691845
That's the same problem.
Do you think Tony was aware of the pym particles?
>>82689594
>be depressed man with trauma over your parents untimely deaths in a time where everything is going wrong.
>see footage of a guy in the room with you beating your father to death while your mother cries and then he breaks your mother's neck.
>not loosing your shit
>>82691774
Signing the accords ends any hashing out. It's agreeing to all it's terms, no further negotiations involved.
>>82688109
>Stark's Child Soldiers™
Bet he can put that on a lunch box.
>>82688416
Here's a clue: Her powers are connected to her emotions.
![3871621-8396111159-iron%25[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/h6WRUY5.jpg "3871621-8396111159-iron%25[1].jpg")
>>82688672
Come up with a reason to not force him to sign it.
>>82690613
Most of it is thanks to RDJ talent, but yeah, I'll agree on that. It's a shame that he has only one good movie though
>>82692026
If he was he didn't seem all that interested.
>>82692232
Except Tony literally tells him that they'll work out details after the signing. The actual signing is just a PR move.
>>82690142
Uh no. They were authorized to kill him. They really wanted to kill him. They only took him alive when 4 other heroes got involved and complicated the situation.
Ross was lamenting that Cap showed up and stopped them from killing him. He wanted to make an example of Bucky for the new Accords way of doing things and pacify the people upset about the UN by using him as a scapegoat.
>>82693154
>Signing something before it's finalized
I wouldn't sign a contract to play with the Dallas Cowboys on the grounds that the "kinks will be worked out" after the fact
>>82691491
>And lastly, when the Avengers start challenging world leaders, they're on the fast track to becoming pic related.
But they don't challenge world leaders. They're not busting into North Korea or attacking China or getting involve in global politics in any way whatsoever. They didn't get involved in the US battle against the Mandarin either aside from Tony who was only involved because they attacked his house.
They just go around fighting supervillains and Hydra holdouts. That's it.
All this Avengers need to be put in check because otherwise they'll take over the world is ridiculous because they never show any hints of remotely being interested in caring about any of that.
>>82688991
Maybe they could possibly take down Thor if they threw enough super tech at him, but in a war against Asgard (which this would certainly trigger) Earth would lose whole handledly given that even an average Asgardian like the mason from AoS are far superior to humans, they have superior tech, superior forces and most of the 9 realms would back Asgard and not Earth.
Hell all they need to do is unfocus the Bifrost and goodbye Earth.
>>82693369
>But they don't challenge world leaders.
If the rest of the Avengers followed Cap's lead, the team would be at odds with the world's governments, who aren't just gonna sit back and let the Avengers keep directly violating their laws. You're gonna get a war between them, and if Wanda, Vision, Hulk and Thor were all on the same side, they'd be unstoppable.
Superman didn't show any intention of taking over the world in the Justice Lords verse until a world leader did something evil enough to justify taking him out. It's absolutely plausible for Cap to head down that route.
>>82693369
>All this Avengers need to be put in check because otherwise they'll take over the world is ridiculous because they never show any hints of remotely being interested in caring about any of that.
Neither did SHIELD.
>>82688009
Did people forget Cap's whole experience in Winter Soldier? It makes sense that he's paranoid of the government now. His experiences compromised his judgment.
>all these people debating which side was right without coming to a clear solution
>>82694527
Is there a Batman v Superman version?
>>82691507
Why the fuck does everyone pretend this didn't happen?
>>82694889
Because Ultron is a bad movie and doesn't make any sense when you think about it critically.
>>82694527
>coming to a clear solution
A register that anyone with super powers must be on, would include some stuff like medical data. It wouldn't be made public
This does not force them to be a hero but if they wish to they must enrol in a program to make sure they are properly trained and it keeps an eye on their activity. This basically turns being a hero into a real job which would include a pay check
>>82694889
Because CW literally turned her into waifu material.
Conservatives side with Captain America, liberals side with Iron man. Unrestricted freedom even if it can cause damage, or supervision and restrictions even if they impair genuine good.
>>82695055
I'm liberal and I side with Cap
>>82694889
the only one on cap's side that aren't dicks are falcon and bucky
not to mention hawkeye went full retard during CW when it was shown that he was the most level headed of the group. sure comics hawkeye is a dick but MCU hawkeye actually taunting tony about rhodey being paralyzed? uncharacteristic as fuck.
>>82695032
The Accords were that without the watchlist.
>>82695102
What about Scott?
>>82687742
He wanted super-powered humans to be kept in check and for a mass-murderer to be brought to justice. No, he was not wrong.
>>82695125
Not really, the accords made them an army which you are forced into and have to go on missions around the world
My idea is more because having super powers is something that should be registered for a number of reasons, and if you want to do heroing then you need real training and are basically a super police man
>>82695148
Scott's view is solely from what Pym told him and because he was starstruck by Cap. If anything I feel bad for him since he's not getting the full picture. Same deal with Spidey, Actually I'm interested in how Tony explained the Accords to Spidey.
FOR FREEDOM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-6x-BFgfF8
>>82695205
You're not forced to work for the UN under the Accords. You just aren't allowed to fight crime outside legal channels.
>>82695260
>Actually I'm interested in how Tony explained the Accords to Spidey.
"Kid, with great power, comes great responsibility."
>>82688983
>>82695406
Parker did kind of told him that. Not the exact words but when Parker tells him why he does what he does, it pretty much strengthened Tony's resolve that he needs to do the things he's doing.
>>82695348
Cap theme >>>> IM theme
>>82695499
But with the accords Peter can't operate with freedom to help people in NYC. Taking into account that JJJ smears his name, the UN would definitely not want a super-powered minor doing what he does without permission. So when there's a building fire on Broadway, Peter needs to wait for UN authorization to rescue trapped people. That's what unecessary bureaucracy does, stop important things from happening.
>>82695728
Which is why I'm interested to see how Parker justifies siding with Accords despite all the compromises he has to do.
>>82695804
>>82695728
Were the accords for ALL super powered people, or just the avengers?
>>82695804
Maybe he'll come to his senses and side with Cap. Not that it matters, when Thanos comes knocking I don't think people are going to give a shit about the accords.
>>82695804
They just needed RDJ to get in a relationship with marvel's most profitable hero since his first 5 mins of existence in this universe
>>82694889
Because the writers waifu her and think it would be cruel to make her suffer.
>>82687993
>he was more wronger than cap!
>>82691507
>And unlike Tony, Wanda didn't have noble intentions
She straight up says she thought they were saving the world
>Wanda also intentionally sent the Hulk to attack a city full of innocent people
And again, how did she knew Hulk would react differently to her mind fucking and go on a rampage?
>>82689401
He may not be wrong that someone should be accountable but he's sure as hell wrong that the accords will bring accountability. All that's going to happen is Ross will be making all the decisions instead of the Avengers themselves. And if anything he's less accountable than they are.
>>82689595
The DC snipers killed people in broad daylight and that still didn't authorize shoot on sight. You're talking out your ass. Literally no first world police forces are authorized to that, ever.
It doesn't matter if the suspect is dangerous, deadly force is still only to be used when it's the only option.
>>82689543
Only because Hulk got sad and gave up.
I really look forward to all this crap stopping.
I also look forward to the accords being proven a mistake when some corrupt officials send the Avengers to attack innocent people.
>>82696609
Thankfully this is the MCU and the writers aren't as big a hack as those that do comics.
>>82696670
They already did in The Winter Soldier.
>>82696609
Well the Avengers weren't allowed to go after a very real suspect in the movie, so that's one of Cap's concerns already come true.
Speaking of which, how did they explain Zemo to the authorities? Black Panther brought him in, but how does he explain how he knew where Zemo was, without ratting out Iron Man? Was Black Panther even allowed to bring Zemo in under the Accords?
>>82696748
Black Panther is a king, they can't make him do anything.
>>82696748
A) He's not an avenger. B) He's a king. C) Stark already uncovered the evidence that Zemo was behind the bombing, not much explaining needed.
>>82696904
>
>He's not an avenger.
If you're not an Avenger you get to do what you want? Why is Ant-Man in jail?
>Stark already uncovered the evidence that Zemo was behind the bombing, not much explaining needed.
Evidence the authorities ignored and forbid him from acting on
I think the king thing is the only part that matters
>>82697002
>If you're not an Avenger you get to do what you want?
You asked, "Was Black Panther even allowed to bring Zemo in under the Accords"? No, the accords have shit to do with him. Why does it suddenly jump to "doing whatever you want?
>Evidence the authorities ignored and forbid him from acting on
Prohibiting someone from going rading another country to look for a criminal and putting him in prison when he's delivered to your doorstep are kinda different caliber things.
I mean, aren't you just a little embarrassed to be so stupid?
>>82688009
>Caps whole point about how regulations come from people with agendas and biases was crazy hypocritical and basically implies he, a guy from a different time, is perfect.
That wasn't what he implied at all.
His point was what he had said that it was both inefficient and irresponsible for them to place the responsibility of their actions into anyone elses hands.
>>82697117
> No, the accords have shit to do with him
He's a masked vigilante; even if he never signed the Accords still forbid him from acting. Unless Ant-Man is still allowed to act as a vigilante as well since the accords have nothing to do with him.
> Why does it suddenly jump to "doing whatever you want?
That's the argument everyone uses against Cap so it should apply when Black Panther does the same things Cap does.
> Prohibiting someone from going rading another country to look for a criminal and putting him in prison when he's delivered to your doorstep are kinda different caliber things.
Assuming they actually thought Zemo was a suspect. Remember they never even looked at the evidence. To them Zemo was nust some random guy Panther grabbed.
Lot of freedom haters in this thread. This is the kind of thinking that got spoons banned in the UK
Of course he was wrong. Tony is almost always wrong. That's his lot in life, making decisions based on good intetions and fucking everything up in the process.
What bothers me is how everything could probably have been prevented if Cap had bothered to tell him about his parents AND if anyone from his team(or his girlfriend), had taken Tony's mental and emotional issues seriously and gotten him some professional help.
>>82697611
>What bothers me is how everything could probably have been prevented if Cap had bothered to tell him about his parents AND if anyone from his team(or his girlfriend), had taken Tony's mental and emotional issues seriously and gotten him some professional help.
How would that have stopped Zemo or the police being ordered to kill Bucky? Remember without those two things Cap would just sign or retire
Why was Tony hatin on my nigga Sam when it was Vision who shot down Rhodey?
>>82697689
he's a child
Foreshadowing his tantrum at the end
>>82697651
If Tony hadn't been so fucked up and PTSD spooked he wouldn't have considered Ultron - thus Sokovia wouldn't have happened = no sokovia accords. Bucky would still be a fugitive, but i find it unlikely Tony would try to kill him if he already had the knowledge of how his parents died instead of it being revealed to him in the manner it was in CW: They would all be working together to help Bucky instead.
>>82697806
>thus Sokovia wouldn't have happened = no sokovia accords
Well, without Sokovia there's really no case anyone can make that the Avengers cause even a tiny fraction of the damage they prevent. I guess.
>>82697892
Sure there is, but Tony's only reason for accepting the accords/government control was out of Ultron guilt. The team wouldn't be divided, Tony wouldn't go full retard and hand power over to someone like Ross because he felt bad he indirectly killed some kid.
>>82697892
Changing goal posts.
>How would that have stopped Zemo?
No Sokovia, no Zemo. Sokovia was the straw that broke the camel's back, added with Wanda's fuckup.
>>82698013
>Sure there is
When? Every other case a lot more people would be fucked without them.
>the government/UN knows what's best for you
lol. no.
>>82698013
So it's Wanda's fault, really. But Wanda is Tony's fault. And Tony is Howard's fault. And Cap influenced Howard so it's really Cap's fault.
>>82698092
Doesn't mean people still wouldn't demand some sort of control or for them to be held accountable for mistakes.
>>82698111
CAP WAS WRONG!
>>82698152
A lot less people would and those demands would seem a lot less reasonable
>>82688448
What happens? Nothing, Hulk telling you he will obey you is a guarantee of nothing because YOU CAN'T DO A SINGLE THING AGAINST HIM YOU FUCKING MORON.
How is he joining the UN suddenly gonna stop him from deciding to destroy Hong Kong? Does he magiclly become bound by his word?
Are you fucking braindead?
>>82698092
If Cap and Tony had listened to Thor and let him take Loki to Asgard in the start of Avengers like he demanded, there wouldn't have been an alien invasion.
>>82698275
He never demanded that, and Loki already had guys building the portal before Thor showed up.
Thor was after the cube, just like everyone else was. He wasn't leaving before he found it.
>>82694527
One may say that the Russo brothers manged to create a community
>>82688501
>Wanda "Wandazilla, straight killa" Maximoff
