>whereas non-superhero settings allow for as widely diverse situations, moments, problematics, interelations betveen characters and/or groups, all sorts of powers/magic/technology and even superhuman characters if need be, as can only be imagined given the vide variety of possibe genres, making for wide-spanning story lines, without any of the backdraws, and all the time remaining fun, retaining basic emersion in the context that the characters themselves are still 'basicaly people', and leaving ample room for artistic free expression at every step, the superhero genre is actualy highly limiting and dependent on tropes and cliches, made interesting merely by the artistic merit of certain issues or the general popularity of some portion of the plot, and basicaly appears as a sort of multimedial monoculture working itself out into eventual extinction
>the biggest fault is its very dependence on the character of the superhero, as opposed to hundreds of different possible types of protagonists found in other, non-superhero, comics, even where 'superpowers' in terms of magic or sci-fi tech are involved as plot devices
discuss
>>82683771
Yeah, capeshit is cancer.
>>82683771
holy run on sentence batman!
>>82683771
metabarons is my shit
>>82683771
This guy is talented. But completely nuts. Asshole makes Morrison looks sane.
So basically he's complaining how you can't show children getting brutally murdered, dismembered, and decapitated in Batman?
>>82683926
And he is a huge pretentious asshole that LOVES to stroke his ego like it was a 9 inch dick.
>>82683926
he didnt write it tho, jodorowsky thought it all up
>>82683946
Pretty Much. His movies are nothing but people backstabbing each other all the time.
>>82683946
>>82683983
Don't be fucking stupid. Attack his ACTUAL argument instead of boiling it down to some retarded strawman.
>>82683970
I thought he was too buys begging for money
>>82683946
no, im complaining how batman is a absurd novelty character and any 5 page 'war story' comic has better protagonists than costumed up vigilantes, not to mention stuff like pic related
>>82684022
Okay.
So basically he's complaining how you can't show children getting brutally murdered, dismembered, and decapitated in Batman?
>>82684072
>>82684072
now youre just trolling tho
>>82684072
>the superhero genre is actualy highly limiting and dependent on tropes and cliches, made interesting merely by the artistic merit of certain issues or the general popularity of some portion of the plot, and basicaly appears as a sort of multimedial monoculture working itself out into eventual extinction
No, he's complaining that the superhero genre is highly limiting and dependent on tropes and cliches, made interesting merely by the artistic merit of certain issues or the general popularity of some portion of the plot, and basicaly appears as a sort of multimedial monoculture working itself out into eventual extinction.
>>82683771
Why are those men invading that halfling city?
>>82683771
That's retarded, that definition of superheroes is arbitrary.
Also run on sentences like that are a pain to read through.
>>82683771
This is actually a pretty good point and explains fairly well why cape stuff tends to feel so generic.
>>82684022
But it is true. The hypocrite talks about how much we should be making idealistic movies while most of his stories are nothing but edgy shit made by some old hippie on LSD.
>it's a "arthouse" guy is mad other genres are more popular than his works
>>82684612
Hypocrisy doesn't make the things he said wrong dipshit.
>>82684641
This isn't really true either all his comics are pulpy genre nonsense.
I think superheroes are more a symptom than an actual problem
The problems are that comics are a teeny, tiny niche market in America. And there's hardly any reason for that to change.
And because America is very large and visible, from a pop culture standpoint, the rest of the world--places that have healthy sensible comics markets, even--look at America and go "Superheros? Well, there must be something to that!"
And there is. There is a clear cut appeal in brightly costumed weirdos beating the hell out of each other in a grand fashion. But superhero comics being the dominant force in American comics is the result of a series of weird quirks of fate, not some sort of divine providence that is indicative of a superior narrative value.
>>82684648
No. But it does making him a shit eating hypocrite.
>>82684767
Why the should I give a shit about that?
Everyone loves to shit on cape comics and so on but very rarely do you see people complain about the actual problem, the shitty fans.
>>82684348
the point is they are superheroes
it would be enough if they were just badass characters in interesting settings, any possible thing could be done with that, any thing possibly imaginable, visualy, storywise, conceptualy
but no, they must first fart lightning and shoot cum out of their wrists, then put on a fetish costume, and then it gets interesting
i mean, other than as a plot device, what possible need for superpowers, costumes or any of the other superhero lore crap is there in a story where the characters have guns?
that its not the same thing isnt the point, the point is you could do all the exact same things with both the characters and the story, if ordinary guns arent fun enough make it plasma guns or somefuck
someone could make a comic about ordinary working joe dudes getting in a drunk fight in a bar and make it as epic and as cinematic and as heroic as any xy-man vs yx-man iteration, all that is just a queston of art style and screenplay any way, none of the scope, monumentality or intensity of supehero comics actualy come from the supeheroes being superheroes any way, in fact it seems most succesfull artists of note that worked for dc and marvel in the last decades made something good precisely by trying to partly ignore, escape or othervise get up from under the whole superhero shtick
>>82684067
>Jeremiah
>good
Hermann's a good comic artists, but a pretty shit writer.
>>82683771
How is Metabarons different from capeshit?
>>82684808
>very rarely do you see people complain about the actual problem, the shitty fans
Well when Moore does it everyone gets defensive and just begins to tear him down and accuse him of being nothing, but a bitter old man
>>82684286
no one is forcing him to use earth as a setting just look at guardians of the galaxy
>problematics
I assume you took this from tumblr, but I agree.
>>82684808
Fresh shit attracts buzzing flies.
>>82683771
>whereas non-superhero settings allow for as widely diverse situations, moments, problematics, interelations betveen characters and/or groups, all sorts of powers/magic/technology
This isn't true though. It's true that the superhero genre is limiting... because it's its own genre. But, lets say for example, the zombie genre is just as limiting. Any movie, book, comic, video game about zombies is just as limited as anything about superheroes.
What I'm saying is it's retarded to single out superheroes when every specific genre has limitations.
The only real flaw of cape comics is the lack of endings. They go on forever and require multiple people to maintain them. Not every single person has the same final vision for the character, so we get consistency and pacing problems depending on how many people have their hands on the character. Every other complaint about them is more based on the writers and the artists falling short of excellence.
>>82685773
>How is Metabarons different from capeshit?
They procreate, their kids survive and take up the mantle and they die when they're killed.
>>82686913
Isn't that the Phantom's thing?
>>82687056
I'm under the impression that we're still with the 21st Phantom.
This is a retarded argument, superheroes are one of the most creative genres. I mean where do you get universe jumping shit like Dial H with a whole universe that is 2d and made in chalk. Or Demon Knights which is both superhero and high fantasy. What about Guardians of the Galaxy that is just set in space and has a talking tree and talking raccoon, but yet, still is a superhero story. Superheroes have trench coat anti heroes, literal gods, fantasy warriors, spacemen, aliens, animal people, fucking anything and everything goes. The fact that Shade The Changing Man and The Metal Men can exist in the same universe shows the malleability of the superhero genre
>>82684758
>>82684470
u guys are fucking dumb
But that's not true at all
He's confusing the limitations of the genre and the industry. What about Watchmen?
>>82687463
You missed the point, the problem is how reliant superhero comics are on tropes and cliches, setting the same basic story in space with raccoon people doesn't make it any more interesting than if its set on earth with regular people.
The majority of the differences you've listed are cosmetic, the core story remains bland and uninteresting because they focus on superheroes.
>>82687612
What are the tropes and cliches? Are jodorowsky comics cliche free?
>>82686445
And you're being retarded in failing to acknowledge that superheroes have become a supergenre in the American comics industry that has become synonymous with the term "comics" itself. And as such is trying to handle way more than its extremely limited scope realistically allows for.
I mean, the butthurt in this thread alone for what is pretty much a factual statement shows as much.
More genres = more variety. That's the entire point. With superheroes, if you don't like Greek gods in spandex, you're shit out of luck.
>>82688059
>I mean, the butthurt in this thread alone for what is pretty much a factual statement shows as much.
Where's the factual part?
>>82687463
>The fact that Shade The Changing Man and The Metal Men can exist in the same universe shows the malleability of the superhero genre
They don't. It's pretty obvious that all these heros actually live in their own pocket-dimension.
>>82688090
Using one genre versus multiple genres means less diversity. Nobody is saying you can't enjoy your capes, you butthurt superfag. They ARE saying capes are maybe not suited for every single storyline people want to do.
>>82683771
I think the problem is the name of the genre. "Superhero" makes you think of guys like Superman; brave, kind, self-sacrificing and super-powerful. In reality, the superhero genre has much more to offer than that, with various shades of "heroic" and more than its share of antiheroes and other morally ambiguous characters, including characters who technically don't have superpowers at all. I mean, DKR is a superhero comic and so are Irredeemable, The Boys, and Top 10. Yet all of those are far from the "super heroic" ideal in their own ways.
That isn't to say that the superhero genre doesn't have a lot of self-imposed limitations, but the same goes for fantasy. Basically anything goes in superhero comics, but 99% of the writers still stick to variations on generic capeshit. In the same vein, anything goes in fantasy comics, but 99% of the writers still stick to variations on generic Tolkien/D&D shit. That's not a fault in the genre itself, but in the writers.
>>82687463
I don't think this says anything about the creativity of the genre. It just means you can put superheroes into any kind of story.
>>82688178
>Nobody is saying you can't enjoy your capes, you butthurt superfag.
Sounding defensive there.
>>82688235
You're the one being defensive, Anon. And why, really? Because someone said that maybe your favorite genre shouldn't be the ONLY genre? What's even the problem with that statement?
>>82688178
>They ARE saying capes are maybe not suited for every single storyline people want to do.
No, he's literally saying that there's a wide variety of genres and settings and that a story can span multiple genres, but that superhero stories are inherently highly limiting.
Which is bullshit, because the superhero concept can and does span as many genres as any other story concept.
It's true of course that not every story should have superheroes and there's definitely an imbalance in superheroes vs every other genre in american mainstream comics, but the idea that any one limits you to only sticking to the tropes most common to that genre is retarded. It's like claiming you can't have a fantasy story without including arrogant elves, gruff dwarves and violent orcs.
>>82688270
My only posts in this thread were >>82688090
and >>82688235
So yes, you suddenly sperged because someone dared to ask you a question.
>>82688189
Both Irredeemable and The Boys are conscious deconstructions of the genre, though.
I hate that capeshit = comics to most people. There's no room for artistic expression and it's art so that's fucking stupid. Comics have a huge scope for storytelling and art from possibly anyone from any background, yet all that most comics fans read is dudes in tights punching shit. It's derivative garbage made by large companies. Grow up. It's sad that on 4chan, a place where on other boards you can talk about the most counter-culture and niche art, the comics board finds everything other than capeshit just too challenging. Capeshit is cancer and are 90% of comic book fans.
>>82688281
A comic deconstructing superheroes is still a comic about superheroes.
>>82688280
Asking stupid questions, accusing others of being autistic and defensive, and refusing to engage in argument is being defensive, Anon.
Answer the question: What's your problem with the statement? Why should all comic be superhero comics, according to you?
>>82688302
Yeah, but a deconstruction of the genre it's part of doesn't mean that genre is broad. In fact, deconstructions are more likely to occur in genres that have lots of repeating tropes, because deconstructions poke fun at tropes and clichés. Which means that they basically prove the point in the OP right.
It's still an internal thing, though. It still relies on tropes common to superheroes. If you don't like them, or don't understand them, you're shit out of luck as a reader. It's not the genre stepping beyond itself. Quite the opposite, in fact.
>>82688329
>Why should all comic be superhero comics, according to you?
Ebin strawmanning.
>>82688364
>two word response
My fucking greentext of your post has more to say than the actual post. I hope you're trolling, because if you aren't, it's just sad.
>>82688362
EVERY genre has common tropes you can poke fun at. Fantasy and Sci-fi more than anything. That doesn't mean those genres are inherently limiting, or that you can't write that genre without sticking to the common tropes.
There's no argument you can make against superhero comics as a genre that doesn't apply to other genre fiction, other than the fact that they're overrepresented. Pretending they're in any way less "free" or creative is just mindless elitism.
>>82688403
>My fucking greentext of your post has more to say than the actual post.
Ebin argument dodge
>>82688059
>failing to acknowledge that superheroes have become a supergenre in the American comics industry that has become synonymous with the term "comics" itself.
So? That has no bearing on what this faggot said or what you're trying to say, you ignorant cunt. Every genre is going to have its limitations. Yea, superheroes are the most popular genre of comic in America. No one's denying that. But every genre is going to have its limitations and it's retarded to single out superheroes just because it's the most popular.
>>82688403
You're not worth replying to in any serious manner because your argument is ridiculous and entirely based on petty insults.
>>82683771
How do you like your potatoes cooked that way?
>>82684336
They're Kender. They deserve to be slaughtered to the last.
I think he wants to see something like the expansive storytelling in manga applied to american comic books. Not everything have to be about spandex-wearing heroes, it could be a slice of life of high school students, or a medieval fantasy. Something akin to before the comic code where comics aren't dominated by capeshit.
>>82688410
Comparing superheroes to Fantasy or Sci-Fi is comparing apples to oranges. Superheroes are basically a subgenre of science fiction (I believe they originate from the Lensman novels).
And as a genre, it IS limited in scope, and the clue is right in the title: Superhero comics require superheroes, and superheroes are a very specific trope. That's the definition of limiting.
>Pretending they're in any way less "free" or creative is just mindless elitism.
Frankly, I think it's elitism to claim that superheroes can do literally anything that other genres can do. I mean, if that's how genres worked, we wouldn't even have them. No science fiction, no fantasy, no romance, no thriller. It'd all just be fiction. Superheroes as a genre is good for doing superhero stuff: Focus on the implication of individual developing mindboggling superpowers and the implications of that. Anything that isn't that, is done better in something other genre.
I mean, take a Western story. They used to be pretty popular in Europe. Moebius did Blueberry, after all. Would a typical Western story REALLY be served better by making the main characters superpowered supermen?
>>82688490
The major problem is that comics in other genres do exist, it's just that outside of a few breakaway successes they tend to sell poorly and are thus limited to smaller niche/indie releases and don't get much mainsteam exposure, which in turn means that they sell poorly.
>>82688431
You're an idiot. This is the dumbest thing I've read on here today. All you capefags are so incredibly defensive and easily insulted, it's crazy.
>>82688511
Yeah, I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with the two massive corporations that have a vested interest in maintaining their media empire.
BUT
WHAT
ABOUT
WATCHMEN
>>82688532
>All you capefags are so incredibly defensive and easily insulted
Sounds like they do have something in common with you then.
>>82688539
Both of the big two publish and have published non-cape comics. If they could actually make money off of them, they'd do it more often. Corporations are interested in your money, not in what genre you like.
>>82688490
Those exist in webcomics. The market for print comics is crazy small in the US, most likely due to the way their business model is structured and the way IPs are managed by law and business.
>>82688548
Oh, sick burn Anon! Truly you are the master of wit!
I don't even hate superheroes. I just hate the faggots who read them, and act like dicks when people point out other genres exist, and maybe deserve a little more exposure. Shit son, there's only so much you can do with spandex-clad power fantasies, and I don't see why capefags act like you killed their dog and bragged about it when you say that.
>>82684025
>I thought he was too buys begging for money
Fuck you, bitch, Jodorowsky is a good. He helped the author of Akira to come up with the ending to the story after he reached a creative blank.
>>82688506
>I mean, take a Western story. They used to be pretty popular in Europe.
They still are. You gotta remember that reprints are normal in Non-US markets and that Tex Willer is still pushing more issues in Italy than Batman does in all of North America.
>>82688506
It's a matter of interpretation, mostly. Green Lantern can be seen as sci-fi. Demon Knights can be seen as Fantasy. Conan can be seen as a superhero. Jedi Knights can be seen as superheroes. Hell, the Metabarons basically are superheroes in almost every way, and still he's complaining. There are no set-in-stone differences and there's plenty of room for overlap. Also, just because a genre started out as part of another thing doesn't mean it can't become its own thing over time.
Also, just because other genres do certain things better (or even just different, which is good enough for diversity's sake alone) doesn't mean superhero comics can't do those things. Superhero horror is a poor match 99% of the time and are rarely as good as actual horror comics, but that's no reason there should be no cape comics with horror elements, or horror comics with superheroes.
Finally, please stop pretending that anyone is actually arguing that all comics should be superhero comics. It's incredibly disingenuous and makes me thing you're completely failing to understand what I'm actually saying. Just because it's entirely possible to do a superhero western (and there have been plenty of those already), doesn't mean that regular western comics need to turn into superhero comics. That's just dumb.
>>82688584
>Oh, sick burn Anon! Truly you are the master of wit!
>I don't even hate superheroes. I just hate the faggots who read them, and act like dicks when people point out other genres exist, and maybe deserve a little more exposure. Shit son, there's only so much you can do with spandex-clad power fantasies, and I don't see why capefags act like you killed their dog and bragged about it when you say that.
Your post is incredibly defensive and shows you are easily insulted.
>>82688560
You're not telling me that manga is as insanely popular as it is, and Eurocomics in the rest of the world, that it's impossible to make money off anything that's not capes.
It's definitely possible to make money off them. But they already have a massive marketing empire built around one, single product. Even their rivalry works with that, with people professing to be DC or Marvel readers. Which just seems idiotic to me, but whatever.
>>82688606
>Finally, please stop pretending that anyone is actually arguing that all comics should be superhero comics. It's incredibly disingenuous and makes me thing you're completely failing to understand what I'm actually saying. Just because it's entirely possible to do a superhero western (and there have been plenty of those already), doesn't mean that regular western comics need to turn into superhero comics. That's just dumb.
I think he doesn't really give a shit about genre variety in comics. He just wants to blame superhero comics.
>>82688617
Other genres exist, Anon. You could try reading them sometime.
>>82684980
But that's looking at the "problem" backwards. Nobody said it was necessary for characters to wear garrish costumes and have superpowers to have a good comic, and that doesn't mean stories which do feature those things have to be bad.
The only things that make them superhero stories rather than just hero stories, as you inadvertedly point out, are those tropes, so complaining the genre being limited by its tropes is stupid. Which, again, makes the definition of the genre pretty arbitrary.
I mean what's the real difference between Lucky Luke and Superman?
>>82688618
The point is that manga and eurocomics already exist, and Marvel and DC can't compete with them (they tried and failed several times). In the end, books that sell keep selling, and books that don't sell get axed. That's not some conspiracy to promote superhero comics above all else, that's just the usual short-sighted capitalism.
And if you want manga and eurocomics, you know where to get them. More money means more comics, even if they're imported. Just because that isn't the Big Two's business doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
>>82684808
People shit on the fans all the damn time. What the fuck are you smoking?
>>82688606
>Conan can be seen as a superhero. Jedi Knights can be seen as superheroes. Hell, the Metabarons basically are superheroes in almost every way, and still he's complaining.
Yeah, OK, you're just trying to shoehorn your genre tropes into other genres at this point. None of those characters are superheroes, because even if some of them are "superpowered" (but not in the same way superheroes are), none of them are vigilantes. Which is literally half of the superhero genre's name.
>Finally, please stop pretending that anyone is actually arguing that all comics should be superhero comics. It's incredibly disingenuous and makes me thing you're completely failing to understand what I'm actually saying.
Oh for fuck's sake, now you're putting words in my mouth. I'm echoing the OP by saying that you can't do everything with superheroes. As a genre, they are inherently limited to... superheroes. You're backpedalling to saying that you can put elements of other genres together, and you're not wrong. What I said is that superheroes are a poor vehicle to do stories that would be better in other genres. Which is the definition of limited scope.
I honestly don't know how you got this bullshit from my previous post. I've read it again, and I still don't see it.
>>82688706
>superheroes are a poor vehicle to do stories that would be better in other genres. Which is the definition of limited scope.
Name a single genre this doesn't apply to.
Your entire argument is based on literally nothing.
>>82688654
>I mean what's the real difference between Lucky Luke and Superman?
One cleaves to Western and Comedy tropes, the other to Superhero tropes.
Seems to me a lot of you guys are arguing that you can do anything with superheroes, because you can drop the tropes, but seem to forget that then they aren't superheroes anymore. Superheroes are defined by superhuman powers, costumes, and some form of vigilantism. Toss those out, and it's not superheroism anymore.
>>82688618
But anon, the most popular Eurocomics are (by far) reprints or legacies from characters almost as old as (or older than) cape characters, and they arguably are from the same genre: adventure/comedy, with characters being heroic in them.
Astérix, Tintin, Lucky Luke and Spirou really aren't that different from each other, and share tropes between them, aswell as with cape comics.
>>82688632
He sounds very cranky.
>>82688737
Hush anon. Bad things only apply to cape comics, and when they apply to other genres they're suddenly not bad, because only cape comics are bad.
>>82688727
>Name a single genre this doesn't apply to.
Point out where I said it doesn't. Go back through the posts you responded to, and quote the sentence where I said that other genres are not limited by their tropes.
Oh right, I didn't say that. That's just a strawman you built to knock over with your bullshit arguments.
You, on the other hand, go around claiming that fucking Fantasy and Science Fiction protagonists are all SUPERHEROES because they punch people slightly harder than the average person.
>>82688753
>Point out where I said it doesn't.
If it doesn't, then the entire argument is moot and there's nothing more limiting about superheroes than any other genre. QED.
>>82688769
The point, since post 1, has been that USING superheroes as the single fucking genre for everything is limiting, you mong. And you responded to that by saying Conan, a Fantasy character with zero superhuman powers, is a superhero, pretty much proving the entire point.
Yeah, real solid arguing. QED.
>>82688729
>Superheroes are defined by superhuman powers, costumes, and some form of vigilantism.
So you've never read Lucky Luke, eh?
You could argue his costume is normal (although it's colorful, pretty unique and recognizable) but other than that he fits the definition.
So anyway, is Batman not a superhero? He doesn't have powers. How about the Question? He dresses pretty casual. What about governement-sanctionned supers?
Is Robin Hood a superhero? How about Zorro?
I've been arguing that defining the genre by its tropes and then saying the tropes limit it is retarded, it's circular reasoning.
>>82688769
>moot
Who?
>>82688751
No, Anon, it's the fans who get enormously buttblasted when you literally say "your favorite genre isn't suited for every story" that are bad.
But no, go back to some thread bitching about how your favorite costumed hero suddenly being black or a woman is the end of the world.
>>82688784
>Conan, a Fantasy character with zero superhuman powers, is a superhero
One word: Batman.
You're falling apart.
>>82688784
>USING superheroes as the single fucking genre for everything is limiting
No one is doing this though, you daffy shit. Even DC puts out plenty of non-superhero comics. Not to mention all the non-superhero comics that are published outside the Big Two.
>>82688511
It doesn't help that the closest thing indie comics get to word of mouth are smug pricks shitting up threads.
Just going 'lol capeshit' doesn't make people want to read indie comics? Who knew?
>>82688788
This is a retarded argument. This trying to fluff literally everything as superheroes to claim that your insanely limited genre is, somehow, bigger in scope than any other genre in existence just doesn't fly.
What you're doing right now is called moving the goalposts, and you're moving them to include the entire fucking pitch.
I guess fucking Twilight is a superhero love story, too, huh? You must be really thrilled with all those girls suddenly getting into superheroism. Not to mention ancient Greek legend. All superheroes. Must feel good, knowing your favorite comics were laying the groundwork for Western civilization. And shit, Alexander the Great was just a real life superhero, wasn't he?
That's dumb
Superhero is a character trait, not a genre.
We only treat it as a genre since it is easier to lump it all together instead of dividing it up cause we see some guys in capes and want to assume it is all the same.
They're a tool to be used in the story, and while most fit in action or scifi or other broad genres they can be anything.
I've seen superhero stories without a lick of action, and I've seen ones that were nonstop action.
You take any story, give the main character a certain costume or a simple but rememberable nickname, and you could call it a superhero story if ya wanted to.
>This issue of The Oddessy, let us see if Odysseus, aka Commander Nobody, can survive the temptations of THE SEDUCTIVE SIRENS
The superhero genre is spread out enough that you can do anything ya want.
>>82688805
>Batman
>no superpowers
Jesus fucking Christ, how much of an idiot do you have to be, really? the comic going "but he's 100% baseline human" while he does shit that no person alive or dead can do doesn't mean he doesn't have fucking superpowers.
The fact that you think this is some sort of argument-ending mic drop is pathetic.
>>82688810
The guy I'm arguing with is claiming that literally every character ever is a fucking superhero.
>>82688737
>Astérix, Tintin, Lucky Luke and Spirou really aren't that different from each other, and share tropes between them, aswell as with cape comics.
I'm not sure if you have actually read any of these? Tintin and Spirou are pretty different from each other and Asterix and Lucky Luke are primarily gag series.
And comedy is pretty damn rare in cape comics, to the point where it's usually associated with specific characters like She-Hulk and Deadpool.
>>82688916
>the comic going "but he's 100% baseline human" while he does shit that no person alive or dead can do doesn't mean he doesn't have fucking superpowers
The fact you think the same thing doesn't apply to characters like Conan is the really pathetic part.
This entire argument of yours is just one long string of unwarranted elitism and double standards.
>>82688916
>The guy I'm arguing with is claiming that literally every character ever is a fucking superhero.
If that's honestly how you're interpreting this, you really shouldn't have dropped out of preschool.
>>82688788
You don't know what you're talking about.
Genre's aren't perfect or isolated. Hell, they don't even exist. But they are the most appropriate way of dividing up generic characteristics through the process of ever-evolving common cultural consensus.
Yes, genre's should be challenged. But, apart from that point - I don't understand what the hell you're trying to argue.
>>82688881
So if I give you superhero stories that aren't limited by the genre or not edited by the big 2, they just don't count as superheroes?
Cool argument you got there.
Anyway explain how the characters I've pointed out are or aren't superheroes. What makes Batman more of a superhero than Zorro?
Just face it, this definition is shit, don't blame me for taking it at face value.
>bigger in scope than any other genre in existence
Cute strawman.
>cape comics
>my favorite
Hell no, I'm a comedy man.
Also fyi superheroes are a subgenre of adventure, not science fiction. You should probably read a book about the topic if you're interested in it, many people much smarter and more educted than you and I have made thesis about the genre.
>>82688881
>And shit, Alexander the Great was just a real life superhero, wasn't he?
Well, yea. Has the name and everything.
>>82688935
>muh elitism
Yeah, the guys saying that superheroes are the only genre you ever need aren't being elitist.
>The fact you think the same thing doesn't apply to characters like Conan is the really pathetic part.
You've never actually read Conan, have you?
>>82688947
Great fucking argument, Anon.
Why are you capes fans so easily rustled? I mean, it's a pretty stupid genre, I'll give you that. But you're the most defensive fuckers in the world. Literally all that's being said is "maybe you can't do everything with superheroes". And you lot go absolutely mad. Completely out of control.
>>82688788
>So anyway, is Batman not a superhero? He doesn't have powers.
He either doesn't need sleep.
He can make his car invisible, allowing him to drive a loud and absolutely unique vehicle through a densely packed city without anyone being able to track him by simply asking the neighbours along his route.
He has the super-strength required to dig and construct the Bat-cave on his own.
He has powers that allow him to evade bullets and powers that allow him to redirect momentum and gravity so that he can swing and leap around freely.
He has a healing factor that's saving his sorry ass from suffering any permanent side-effects from being shot and having his face and chest tenderized by people who can lift cars, if everything else fails.
He's a rich white male in the USA, probably belongs to the richest 1% of the nation.
Clearly no powers.
>>82688934
I've read them all my life.
>Tintin and Spirou are pretty different from each other
>2 adventure comics
>featuring a young protagonist who works for a magazine
>and his older more colorful sidekick
>and also a smart and cute animal
>and an absent-minded professor, once in a while
>they go around the world defeating villains by being smart and courageous
The tone is different but the premise is incredibly similar.
>and Asterix and Lucky Luke are primarily gag series.
They're both adventure and comedy with characters performing heroics in historical settings (that also happen to feature chracters more potent than normal humans). There are some Lucky Luke stories with barely any comedy in them.
>>82688965
>Well, yea. Has the name and everything.
His superhero name was "The two-horned one".
>>82688960
>What makes Batman more of a superhero than Zorro?
Consistently superhuman behaviour. I haven't seen Zorro do half the shit Batman does. Granted, Zorro is pretty close, but I've never seen the character do something so superhuman as to break suspension of disbelief. Batman does that every other day. And no matter how hard you shout "he has no superpowers", a dude jumping off a building and flying away perfectly has superpowers.
>>82688916
>Jesus fucking Christ, how much of an idiot do you have to be, really? the comic going "but he's 100% baseline human" while he does shit that no person alive or dead can do doesn't mean he doesn't have fucking superpowers.
Are you fucking serious with that argument?
By that reasoning half of all fictional characters ever have superpowers.
>>82688993
>the guys saying that superheroes are the only genre you ever need
You mean literally nobody? Stop strawmanning. It makes you look even more ridiculous thn you already are.
>You've never actually read Conan, have you?
I disagree with you, so I must not know what I'm talking about. Again, nice strawmanning. FYI I've read plenty of Conan and he's survived shit no human being would live through, so by your definition that means he's got superpowers.
Are you ever going to come up with an actual argument, or are knocking down strawmen and hurling juvenile insults the limits of your intellectual capacity?
>>82689034
How long till he's replaced by a black Muslim pansexual tranny?
>>82683771
>the superhero genre is actualy highly limiting
That's why I prefer to write within it. It's more of a challenge.
I guess you'd have to be a pretty shit writer to never writer superheroes.
>>82689028
>The tone is different but the premise is incredibly similar.
Tintin pretty much started the tradition of sinking a lot of time into research during the production of adventure comics, something the writers of Spirou probably never bothered with as their tales were generally a lot more fantastic and outlandish.
It's kinda wierd to compare Spirou and Fantasio straight reking a whole army with Tintin occasionally knocking people out by running into them.
>>82689028
You'll note that for both Asterix and Lucky Luke, their "superpowers" are never the focus of the story. They are plot devices or character elements. Kind of like how Star Trek also isn't superheroism, despite there being a telepath, a superhumanly strong and superhumanly intelligent android, and a man with superhuman vision on the bridge. All of whom wear colourful spandex costumes and pilot a spaceship that can do literally anything but turn invisible (and even does that on one occasion).
You can't just shift the goalposts and make everything into superheroes.
>>82689106
Except there are plenty of Asterix story that focus entirely or partially on the magic potion and the superpowers if grants.
>>82689060
>Not Anglo
>not protestant
>fucked dudes and chicks
You implying that this gay nigga fratboy wuzznt kang of kangs?
>>82689045
Nigga if you think that's how whips work irl, you're deluded. Zorro performs superhuman feats all the time.
Robin Hood split a fucking arrow in 2, that's fucking Bullseye bullshit tier.
>>82689049
Batman directly competes with superpowered characters. Dude has superpowers. If he didn't, he'd be dead. He's defined by the tropes of his genre.
The whole "Bats doesn't have superpowers" is just a gimmick for his edgy fans. Of course, if he doesn't have superpowers, he's just some mentally disturbed furry.
>>82689135
>Robin Hood split a fucking arrow in 2, that's fucking Bullseye bullshit tier.
Youtube, maybe?
>>82689124
And there are plenty of Star Trek stories that focus on Troi's telepathy, Data's superhuman everything, and Geordi's cheesegrater. Yet the characters aren't defined by these things. Asterix isn't Magic Potion Man, and Geordi isn't See Everything Man.
They're not superheroes.
>>82689135
Splitting an arrow is tough, but not superhuman at all for a skilled marksman.
>>82689168
>Asterix isn't Magic Potion Man
Yes he is. To the point that whenever he's without his magic potion it's often an actual plot point that he has to improvise around. And let's not even mention Obelix.
>>82689103
Brah Tintin has toppled governements almost single-handedly and kicked every commies' ass in Soviet Russia with his bare hands (yeah, I know Soviets might aswell not be canon, but it's still worth noting that Tintin can kick some serious ass).
There definitely are differences (Tintin being arguably more focused on mystery and Spirou dwelling more in sf) but there are a fuckton of similarities.
>>82689135
>Zorro
>using a whip
Didn't that negro use a foil?
Suspension of disbelief is the crucial part, though. However unlikely, it's believable to have a man carve a Z into someone's shirt with a sharp object. Jumping down a building and flying away, or slamming into a wall hard enough to crack it and getting up just fine aren't.
Point is, Batman consistently does shit that's only believable in the context of him being a superhero, because he follows the rules of his genre.
This shit reminds me of Last Action Hero. When Arnie comes to our world, shoots a cab, and just puts a few holes in it. He remarks "are cars bulletproof here?"
>>82689181
Yeah, the whole story hinges on the potion keeping Rome outta their hair.
>>82689106
But in most cape stories the powers themselves aren't the focus either, it's what they do with them, like Astérix kicking Roman ass.
You're the one moving the goalposts here.
>>82689181
And that makes them superheroes? Again, is the crew of the Enterprise also superheroes?
>>82689218
You're literally calling a historical comedy comic a superhero comic. If that isn't moving the goalposts, I don't know what is.
>>82689225
I didn't say that. I'm just pointing out that what you said here >>82689106 is wrong.
The point is that you're doing mental gymnastics to come up with a definition of superheroes that somehow includes everything you don't like and excludes everything you do, but you're failing miserably at it because "superheroes" aren't a monolithic, clearly defined genre and have a strong tendency to cross over, either partially or entirely, with pretty much every genre there is.
There are tons of genres that have superhero-like characters and tons of superhero stories that have strong elements of different stories. The distinction between, for example, the Dungeons and Dragons comic (generic fantasy with superpowers) and Demon Knights (generic superpowers in a fantasy setting) is pretty much non-existent.
>>82689172
Show me someone doing it on purpose from a respectable distance.
>>82689237
>You're literally calling a historical comedy comic a superhero comic.
Please feel free to point out where anyone said anything like that.
>>82689205
>Jumping down a building and flying away, or slamming into a wall hard enough to crack it and getting up just fine aren't.
BUT ZORRO DOES SHIT LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME!
>>82689280
Spend two seconds typing "robin hood arrow trick" on youtube and you get literally dozens of videos.
>>82689307
BUT SEE, IT'S DIFFERENT.
>>82689237
>You're literally calling a historical comedy comic a superhero comic.
I literally am not, I'm using it to point out that defining superheroes the way you do brings questions regarding characters like Astérix, and that your definition isn't as exclusive as you put it.
This argument reminds me of when Landis tried to argue that Chronicle wasn't a superhero movie.
>>82689322
This me-tooism is pathetic, just saying. If you have anything to say, just say it directly.
>>82689317
You should try actually watching those videos, most of them don't do the splitting arrow, and those that do are pretty pathetic
https://youtu.be/-R0xdXEo4_c
>48 takes
>no idea of the distance
>doesn't even actually split the arrow
https://youtu.be/1ySJ1-yYqCs
>fucking 5 feet away
>multiple takes
https://youtu.be/IpNz9YJRSMU
>description literally says "it was just luck"
Some others use guns to split the arrow.
Robin Hood does it on purprose, when he wants to do it, from 50 feet away, he doesn't need multiple tries, he's just that good of an archer that when he misses the bullseye it's a conscious decision.
Not to mention he didn't use modern bow and arrows.
>>82689280
>>82689456
Lars Andersen shows how it can be done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk
He also needs several takes.
Lars Andersen: Questions, Answers and New Archery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iLTA43MBuA
>>82689599
Lars Andersen is also a conceited hack.
>>82683771
There is literally nothing in this arguement that Superheroes prevent by being present in a narrative. Every single thing mentioned is a fault of the writer being unable to write the quality needed, and the originater of the arguement probably can't write them either. Then blames super heroes to make himself feel better.
And only has a job writing because the bar for quality in a writer for superheroes is set so low.
>>82689456
>Not to mention he didn't use modern bow and arrows.
Yeah, that's going to depend a lot on where the trope even came from. Robin Hood has been a character since Medieval times, and we're still making movies about him. The people who came up with that might not have known the first thing about archery.
>>82687367
While the current strip Phantom is still the 21st, the Defenders of the Earth Phantom and Phantom 2040 were descendants of that Phantom (27th and 24th, respectively -- obviously different universes).
>>82688998
>He has the super-strength required to dig and construct the Bat-cave on his own.
You're fucking retarded
>>82689375
He got you on this one desu.
Your definition of "super" hero are arbitrary.
I think that I will also bring Doctor Savage here too. Is he a Super hero? And Conan the barbarian?
>>82683771
im not reading that
somebody summarize.
>>82689963
>You're fucking retarded
Either that or he buried all those Mexicans in the floor.
>>82683771
>made interesting merely by the artistic merit of certain issues or the general popularity of some portion of the plot
>people only like it because it's got some good parts
who is this moran
>>82690011
it really is overly verbose but tldr version is "Superhero comics are limited by the fact that the main character must fill out the superhero archetype" which is obviously not true
>>82690064
>Superhero comics are limited by the fact that the main character must fill out the superhero archetype
that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying movies are limited by the protagonist having to fill the hero role
What a fucking retard. Was this from a Mary Sue article or something?
>>82690030
Google gives nothing so it's OPs own words.
He tried to trick us with meme arrows.
>>82690092
This.
>>82684067 should've given it away.
>>82690139
The typos and lack of punctuation in the OP were also hints.
