He was wrong /co/
>>82663998
>go in team Cap because Tony's generally an asshole
>end up wanting Tony to beat the shit out of Cap in his own movie
He was right about not working for the UN, he was wrong about helping Bucky.
>>82664478
The events of Civil War were caused by lack of control.
Going in to the film neutrally, I was not presented with a compelling argument against control.
He was right about literally everything with the exception of not telling Tony about his parents, which he apologized for.
If it wasn't for Wanda being under house arrestwhich was the right thing to dohe would've signed.
>>82663998
Tony pls go
Team Cap was on the fast track to becoming these guys.
>>82663998
He was right. Tony kept fucking it up. Even if Bucky wans't there he still did shit like putting Wanda into home prison.
>>82663998
tony cucks pls
your golden boy was in the wrong
>>82664842
I was gonna say, JLU's Cadmus arc is literally the ultimate counterargument to Cap. Under Cap's hands we're safe because he's genuinely a good guy, but every hero isn't like him (and even still, Superman was a genuinely good guy in JL; there's definitely something that can psychologically break Cap too).
>>82663998
They were both wrong.
>>82664851
Which was for her own protection.
It makes no sense to have her running around.
>>82664877
Don't even like Tony.
>>82664929
Like something happening to Bucky, perhaps.
>>82664478
Exactly this. Bucky is too dangerous to be free and Cap lost all credibility when he attempted to help Bucky escape the police instead of bringing him in peacefully.
>>82663998
He was literally right about everything, but ok.
>>82664971
Agreed, the whole point was they were just being played for suckers.
Yeah, Cap was right that Bucky was innocent but after that he was mostly playing into the bad guy's hands.
>>82664851
yeah fuck Tony wanting to put a member of their private organization who created an international incident in house arrest under his care, while simultaneously trying to keep the government & UN off their backs AND to maintain accountability for future actions
What a total douche amirite?
The only thing he was wrong about was not telling Tony about the deaths.
>>82664842
Except this is a fucking absurd argument because Cap nor any of his compatriots ever argued or even insinuated that the Avengers know what's best for the world nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations. Cap wanted to avoid being beholden to a government body that could force them to intervene in places they shouldn't or do nothing when an emergency situation did arise that needed the Avengers. Completely different from the Justice Lords in almost every capacity.
>>82665041
Not only that but when he saw the prison conditions he immediately concluded that it wasn't the best option.
This is the first time Tony has ever been 100% right and it's not even his won movie.
>>82664571
The events of Civil War were caused by lack of information
Nobody stopped to think "Are we absolutely sure this is the right thing to do" all while giving up all of the information that they had
Had Cap stopped, had Bucky not ran (in the first place after winter soldier and when they came for him after the framing), had anyone tried to make sure that everything they knew was correct, basically none of the events would have happened
They tried to write a movie about how everything can so easily come apart, but really they ended up making a movie about how easily people could work together but don't because of their personal feelings
Straight up, if Cap let Bucky get taken in the first place (because honestly, there's no way they could have killed him), nothing would have gone wrong (except for the whole panther subplot)
>>82665093
But it's not. Cap refused any oversight at all, prevented any dialogue being opened up, and became an international terrorist.
He wouldn't even take responsibility for all the deaths in any meaningful way.
>>82665023
>Cap was right that Bucky was innocent
No he wasn't.
Bucky wasn't innocent.
Just because he didn't actively kill all of those people, doesn't mean you can't hold him responsible.
If you have a double agent on your side, only he's not in control of when he's on your side, why would you want him on your side?
Bucky was a huge liability and the only reason Cap didn't bring him in was because it was the last piece of a bygone era he had left, they addressed this in the film. Peggy didn't have to die right in the middle of all of that noise, but it happened because of plot
>>82665093
>Cap nor any of his compatriots ever argued or even insinuated that the Avengers know what's best for the world nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations.
That's literally what he was doing. He was refusing to listen to the governments of the world because he didn't think they were right.
>>82665147
>I don't think we should allow a government body to control us for their own agenda
VS
>We must control all governments because we are more powerful than them
Anon they're completely different situations and arguments.
>>82665093
>Except this is a fucking absurd argument because Cap nor any of his compatriots ever argued or even insinuated that the Avengers know what's best for the world nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations
That's the exact thing Cap was doing in the opening scene of the movie. Taking matters on foreign soil into his own hands and making the decisions which he chooses is best.
Imagine if Zemo became POTUS in the MCU. Do you seriously think Cap would've done anything different from JLord Superman?
>>82665093
>Cap nor any of his compatriots ever argued or even insinuated that the Avengers know what's best for the world nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations.
That's exactly what Cap argued.
>We may not be perfect, but the safest hands are still our own
He said this when they were already acting like they knew what was best for the world, and invading sovereign nations to act however they see fit.
>>82665212
After the events of TWS, can you even blame him?
Hell, the World Security Council almost nuked New York.
>>82665212
He refused to sign the document. He didn't burst in to the UN meeting and demand them to stand down or die. There's kind of a difference.
I just realised Cap is no longer a man out of his time, he has acknowledged to the realities of the modern world but has stuck to his old non compromising principles
>>82665253
I couldn't blame JLord Superman for murdering Luthor either. However, when you murder the president there are voids to be filled, consequences to handle, and in general new rules. I don't think that, from their point of view (assuming they're correct about knowing what's best from the world) the formation of the JLords' rule was illogical either.
>>82663998
He was wrong to not trust government oversite the movie after he discovered the government organization running the Avengers was a front for Hydra you say?
>>82665093
>nor that their decisions should supercede sovereign nations
Unless it's in Africa, apparently.
>>82665333
Except, as Rhodey said, this isn't SHIELD. This is the United Nations.
>>82665223
In both cases the super teams are ignoring what the official governments of these countries say and enforcing their own views of justice. They don't need to actively take over governments when they can just brush them aside and kill/arrest people themselves.
>>82665252
A handful of people cannot "invade" a foreign nation. The Avengers also are pretty much critically underpowered in the MCU, and plus even if someone like Thor declared himself dictator of a country, who the fuck else is gonna stop him except the Avengers?
>>82665283
But he then essentially did do that. There's no way Cap didn't kill several police officers who were trying to take Bucky in.
He directly went against 117 countries. Because he thought he knew best. Because... reasons.
>>82665333
He was wrong to not put his trust into people that he's known for a long time
Even if there were Hydra remnants active in the government, there'd be people who would be actively working against that too
Cap refused to sign anything or even attempt to work towards a compromise simply because he didn't like the idea of anyone over his head telling him what battles to fight
>>82665362
You mean the international organization famous for not being able to make a decision? That's who I want controlling my super team!
>>82665379
Anon he specifically chastised Bucky for hitting people too hard in the stairway and went out of his way to save officers lives in that same fight.
>>82665377
>Wanda
>Vision
>Ant man
Fuck even cap at a stretch.
And you've not provided a point. You've just acknowledged the need for oversight.
>>82665377
>who the fuck else is gonna stop him except the Avengers?
And if all the Avengers were in agreement with Thor?
Who stops him/them then?
>>82665283
He was almost going to sign the document as well and Tony was reassuring him with best possible outcomes. Then he just flips out on hearing Wanda is in house arrest (Bitch would be in Nigerian jail if Tony hadnt pulled strings) and backs out from signing
Why is cap the worst ?
>>82665377
>A handful of people cannot "invade" a foreign nation
Yes they can, especially if their strength is comparable to an army.
SHIELD or SWORD or any other super agency that deals in espionage and super human powers
>>82665444
And in the same fight, practically in the same breath as the statement, slammed one of them through a wall.
>>82665419
Hah, I'll give you that one.
>>82663998
>Bucky cleary has his wits about him
>"Bucky police are coming, prove to me you're worth saving and don't kill anyone"
>"OK Steve, I promise I won't kill anyone"
>Bashes heads through walls
>Throw people over railings
>Steve has to catch people in mid-air to save their lives from Bucky
>But hes totally worth saving and not an asshole guys, don't lock him up!
>>82664851
>Tony kept fucking it up.
I really want to hear what the argument is for that. What did Tony even actually do wrong before trying to join Cap's side?
>>82665283
And refusing to sign wasn't the problem - The Accords made it clear you could walk away if you chose. Actively violating the law both before and afterwards as a vigilante was.
>>82665193
>Bucky wasn't innocent
Yes he was
>Just because he didn't actively kill all of those people
AKA he's 100% innocent
>doesn't mean you can't hold him responsible
you cannot hold somebody responsible for actions they never took.
>If you have a double agent on your side, only he's not in control of when he's on your side, why would you want him on your side?
Because the plan was to get him to surrender peacefully(ie not killed by a german death squad), and maybe, I don' know... FIX THE MIND CONTROL PROBLEM
>Bucky was a huge liability
See: above
>the only reason Cap didn't bring him in was because it was the last piece of a bygone era he had left
you're literally talking out of your ass. He wanted to bring bucky in peacefully, and when he was brought in, Bucky was all but denied a fair trial, and was well on his way to wakandan extradition, where his life would be in the hands of a grieving king who thinks his dad was murdered by him, and had not only just tried to kill him, but had said they couldn't keep him from Bucky.
>Peggy didn't have to die right in the middle of it all of that noise, but it happened because of plot
Zemo's family didn't have to die in all that noise, but it happened because of plot
Stark didn't have to lose his mind after learning a mind controlled assassin killed his parents, but it happened because of plot
fuck off with your idiocy
>>82665377
>>82665377
>and plus even if someone like Thor declared himself dictator of a country, who the fuck else is gonna stop him
Hydra the true saviour of humanity
HAIL HYDRA!!!!!!!
>>82665125
Where the fuck were She Hulk and Daredevil at? Half of all of the problems could habe been solved if a lawyer with half a brain could took a look at the accords instead of expecting a bunch of meathead suoer heroes and a drunk businessman to make an informed decision on a law in a few weeks.
>>82663998
Cap was right.
The Accords couldn't even make sure that the psychologist evaluating Bucky was properly vetted.
They're already fucking up.
>>82665125
The guys who were coming for him had kill orders. Ross later says if Cap hadn't interfered Bucky would be eliminated. The moral of the movie is don't cooperate with Thaddeus Ross.
>>82665509
>Steve has to catch people
person. one person. one person was at risk to die, and he didn't even die.
>Don't lock him up!
not even close, considering the entire scene showed that it was shoot first, arrest later. It only became an arrest situation when conventional police got involved, and Rhodes was there.
>>82665549
Non-existent and non-canon respectively
>>82665449
>>82665456
With UN oversight, the Avengers have to wait for a resolution to approve their deployment to stop Thor. This could take WEEKS if ever. With a free Avengers, they respond immediately. And if the Avengers side with Thor there's nobody who could stop them anyway. I mean Christ do you really think a UN resolution is going to stop them?
>>82665469
Tony in effect threw Wanda into prison so he could control her. It was a strong indication that the next step would be explosive collars or some other way for the government to have total control.
>>82665579
The hastily brought in psychologist, who had to be rushed in due to cap.
>>82665006
>Which was for her own protection.
you mean protecting others by locking her up against her will?
>>82665636
You're right. Without cap there would be no psychologist, because Bucky would've been killed.
>>82665519
Unless you have dangerous powers like Wanda. In which case "retiring" means they lock you up.
>>82665235
>Imagine if Zemo became POTUS in the MCU. Do you seriously think Cap would've done anything different from JLord Superman?
Yes, assuming that he would requires a leap Evil Kenevil woukd struggle with.
>>82665612
>If the ones in power could act unilaterally instead of having to get approval from everyone, things would be much more efficient
That's the logic begind having a dictator.
Seriously, how can anyone support Cap? Ok, he should help Bucky but he lost the moral high ground the moment he assaulted officers that are just doing their legal duty. And he wasn't even just taking them down, he was throwing them so hard their heads dented walls.
>>82663998
He should have had the Avengers equivalent of a court martial after he deployed Banner on the ground in South Africa
>>82665636
Still, government clearance is a big deal.
If they can't pull that off on the fly, how can they get 117 countries to make a life or death decision in a timely manner?
>>82665509
I'm starting to get what Markus and McFeely were saying about Bucky doing more wrong than Wanda here. Cap said straight up "This doesn't have to end in a fight, Buck" and Bucky said "It always ends in a fight." He was perfectly willing to endanger the lives of those men, and despite saying he wouldn't kill anyone, tried to throw a man off the stairwell before Cap caught him. And all this time, he never attempted to turn himself in to the authorities and explain what he's done. The idea that Bucky isn't responsible for what he did requires that he's a different Bucky now than he was when HYDRA made him their weapon, but he's not. He's remembered his old life, but his life with HYDRA has affected him just as much if not more. And in a lot of ways, that's the guy Cap was defending.
>>82665693
Nah uh, Evil Kenevil could do it easy
>>82665379
>officers who were trying to take Bucky in.
That's a fucking lie and you know it. Ross sent those guys to kill Bucky.
>>82665685
She was under house arrest and intentionally sent the Hulk to attack tons of innocent people barely a year ago.
>>82665582
>one person was at risk to die, and he didn't even die.
Maybe watch the movie again.
People dont survive the things Bucky did to them. Heads literally broke walls.
Plus, Steve just goes "come on, man" after Bucky attempted to kill a person after he promised not to.
>considering the entire scene showed that it was shoot first, arrest later. It only became an arrest situation when conventional police got involved, and Rhodes was there
If all it takes to turn a kill mission is the involvement of local police and an Avenger on scene, it's almost as if Cap could've influenced them to arrest Bucky...
>>82665015
Cap was trying to bring him in peacefully. He fought the police because they were on a "shoot on sight" order. After that, Bucky was on the run and Cap was trying to catch up. When he did, they were both arrested.
>>82665626
>Tony in effect threw Wanda into prison so he could control her
More like stopping the bitch from making things worse
>>82665704
>legal duty
>murdering a man without trial
>>82665728
Why would it need all 117? Surely it would just need the one where the Avengers want to go to.
>>82665642
As opposed to what?
Letting her run around? That would create a PR nightmare, and result in stricter legislation.
>>82663998
My ass.
>>82664666
be honest if your friend even had a clue that his friend bashed your dads head in and snapped your mothers neck would sorry calm your rage
>>82664385
>5 movies of Tony constantly being an asshole
>meh
>1 movie of Cap arguably acting like a dick
>FUCKER DESERVES A BEATING
tonyfags pls
>>82665684
Which is a completely understandable POV.
Why is Bucky so deserving of life?
>>82665760
This.
They had orders to shoot on sight. Sharon even confirmed and said so.
>>82665780
It was a clear cut indication that the government could not be trusted to leave retired heroes alone.
>>82665535
>Yes he was
No he wasn't
>AKA he's 100% innocent
He still killed all of those people
>you cannot hold somebody responsible for actions they never took.
He DEFINITELY killed all of those people
>Because the plan was to get him to surrender peacefully(ie not killed by a german death squad), and maybe, I don' know... FIX THE MIND CONTROL PROBLEM
Things Bucky wasn't willing to do
Things Bucky didn't do when given the chance to
Bucky wasn't going to get killed by a german death squad, he proved that by not getting killed by a german death squad and then a superpowered panther themed royal
>See: above
You mean where you were completely wrong about your conclusions
>Bucky was all but denied a fair trial
Bucky wasn't given a trial because he was detained for not co-operating with the police, working with Hydra, and making a huge mess in Berlin
He was a huge risk to national security, but had he gone in to the US government (which is what Cap tried to get him to do, and he still refused) he would have been spared all of that
The only reason Cap and T'Challa weren't also detained like that was because there were foreign super powers giving them a chance
This is all under the assumption that he wouldn't immediately be given psychiatric help once they eventually got him to surrender, which is what happened. Might I add, they didn't just shoot him and Cap (who was aiding his escape) and BP who they didn't know was royalty once they had him surrounded
And even if he was on his way to Wakandan extradition, Bucky dying right then and there means that less people die over all
>Zemo's family didn't have to die in all that noise, but it happened because of plot Stark didn't have to lose his mind after learning a mind controlled assassin killed his parents, but it happened because of plot
Zemo's family died in a prior movie, but even if they didn't, what's your point
Stark freaked out because Cap had kept Bucky's role in the assassination a secret from him
>>82665684
>You're right. Without cap there would be no psychologist, because Bucky would've been killed.
Probably would have turned out better for literally everyone except Bucky. And maybe Zemo.
>>82665787
If you're too dangerous to bring in alive, lethal force is 100% authorized. And Bucky literally tried to kill cops sent to arrest him.
>>82665787
>killing people is only OK if you're an independent superhuman Avenger in a foreign land and just know you're right no matter what!
>>82665813
how about as opposed to treat her like a human being like Cap does earlier on?
>>82665780
Yeah it really would have been the worst thing in the world if, on the way to the store someone threw a grenade at her and she protected herself. I mean really, who can forgive something like that?
>>82665787
A wanted terrorist who allegedly attacked the UN killing the leader of a member country.
>>82665519
>>82665519
They arrested Bucky but offered him no trial, failed to even verify the identity of a key person involved in his case, and when Cap said that he has proof positive that Bucky wasn't the killer, they ignore him and blow up an airport. Stellar performance from the UN right off the bat.
>>82665787
Explain how that wasn't their legal duty.
>>82665877
>sent to arrest him.
To murder him.
>>82665609
>Daredevil
>non-canon
kys
>>82665877
Bucky wasn't trying to kill anyone. He was just slapping people's shit so he could get out of there.
>>82665792
Depending on the region it could also need approval of all the allies like in a NATO region
Or if wanted to go to a nation that was a superpower and then there would be vetoes and shit
>>82665904
>Forgetting about South Africa
>>82665920
Murder is a legal concept.
>>82665920
Given the authority to murder him
But they didn't murder him after they got him to surrender
>>82665941
Why wouldn't he give himself up to Cap?
>>82665941
>I haven't seen the movie but have an opinion anyways!
>>82665787
Like the Avengers do all the fucking time?
>>82665941
he threw a guy down a stairwell
>>82665850
The heroes themselves could not be trusted, they have no check on themselves
>>82665975
Wrong.
He literally says himself I'm not going to kill anyone when he grabbed his bag
Cap is a good soldier but a HORRIBLE leader.
>>82665941
Dude, he definitely was trying to kill them, and very likely did kill some.
>>82665903
Yeah, I see your point now.
>Giant house
>Pool
>state of the art technology
>Robot dude to chat to who makes you food
>You've committed major crimes that frankly you should be in prison for
>Instead physical Jarvis chats philosophy with you
So dehumanising.
He was right about the Accords but he mishandled the Bucky situation. It was really about Cap holding on to the last shred of his former life before the big freeze. So in a sense one could argue Steve was being selfish in his quest to live in the past.
>>82665974
>But they didn't murder him after they got him to surrender
They didn't murder him because War Machine showed up. They tried gunning him down with an attack chopper and would have if Tchalla wasn't there.
>>82665897
People left alive after fighting the Avengers:
Loki (destroyed half of New York by triggering an alien invasion)
Strucker (one of the heads of Hydra, conducting illegal human experiments)
People dead after fighting the Avengers:
Crossbones (blew himself up)
people the Avengers decided to just outright kill before the fight even began:
Literally just Ultron
>>82666006
But then he was shown throw a guy to his would-be death
>>82664385
No I am still glad Tony got beaten.
>>82666006
And then he throws a guy off a balcony, who Cap has to save. Not to mention all the guys heads he slammed through walls.
>>82666028
Steve's biggest flaw is his yearning for the past, I honestly wouldn't be shocked if he's only attracted to Sharon because she's related to Peggy.
>>82665991
Every incident except the creation of Ultron would have been much worse had the heroes not been there. They were doing their best to help people.
>>82665941
He tried to kill a cop, that Steve has to save.
He bashed people through walls.
He yanked and threw a person of a speeding motorcycle.
He blew up an underpass.
Slapping people's shit my ass.
>>82665125
No he would have gotten killed, Ross said so himself and then Zemo would have used another Winter Soldier to fuck shit up.
>>82665950
>Wanda doesn't intervene, Cap and hundreds pf people in a crowded market die
>Wanda does intervene, Cap and those people live, a small group of people die in an office building
Sometimes you can't save everyone, but the second choice is without question the best option in that scenario.
>>82666029
War Machine was also given the clearance to kill him
They didn't know T'Challa was BP until he took off his helm
The very fact that they gave him a chance to surrender means that they were never actually going to kill him unless he resisted to the point where they had to kill him, which honestly was far gone
>>82666059
That would make sense
>>82665904
Tony had little time to convince Cap to turn over Bucky, sign the accord so Secretary Ross doesnt disband the Avengers or worse. He knew Wanda would help Cap and she already created enough trouble in the beginning
She should be rotting in a nigerian jail if it werent for Tony
>>82666027
A very pretty jail cell is still a jail cell.
>>82666030
I seriously doubt any HYDRA goons that got hit with Mjolnir, Hulk, Widow's gins, or Hawkeye's arrows lived.
>>82665986
Wrong: see
>>82666030
The only person the Avengers ever tried to execute was Ultron. Anyone who surrendered to the Avengers was allower to live. The only other people they killed were active combatants. They never went into a fight with the intent to kill their enemies except, again, Ultron.
>>82666116
And how fitting that a major criminal is put in a jail cell.
>>82666040
>>82666048
>>82666077
You realize in all these examples no one died, right?
>>82666118
The Hydra goons shot first
>>82666081
Bucky was able to take out half of the hit squad by himself and didn't take out the rest because he was fighting Cap who was also taking out the hit squad
And then he had to fight Black Panther
Ross said that they had the okay to kill him, but being able to kill someone and being allowed to kill someone are two different things
Another winter soldier wouldn't have caused the rift between the avengers, it would just give them even more of a reason to come together
It had to be bucky, didn't you watch the movie?
>>82666059
I mean you cant really blame him because its a scenario that no one would want, having everyone and everything you know gone. Hell part of the reason hes still Captain America is because its another war to fight and its familiar to him
>>82666116
She commited so many crimes.
>>82665920
>>82665906
>>82665972
and thus we prove Cap's right
desperate authorities send their forces to kill an man for a crime he didn't commit
and in this scenario the Avengers wouldn't be able to do anything about it
Clint was kind of an asshole in this, and I usually love him. Him claiming that Tony doesn't give a damn about them annoyed me.
>>82666006
And then Cap has to save someone's life, because Bucky was straight up willing to murder him.
No worries though, because Cap made a funny quip after that!
The entire chase scene was full of actions that would've ended up fatal if we focussed on them.
If Hulk jumping from building to building kills people, then pulling people off high speed motorcycles, breaking walls with heads, blowing up the underpass and fighting in the middle of a highway will also have deaths.
>>82666153
You realize that if Bucky had gone with Cap or if Bucky turned himself in, there wouldn't even be any injuries
Also, there were no deaths because Cap was there
>>82666087
>South Africa and Nigera are the same country
Racist.
South Africa was where she sent the Hulk to attack a city.
>>82666028
>mishandled the Bucky situation.
By keeping him alive?
>>82666116
But his point is that she should be in a jail cell, pretty or otherwise. Technically he's right. She aided and enabled Ultron until they realized how their vengeful driven life was wrong.
A written apology would not save her from jail time.
>>82666161
Oh, I understand why Cap is like that, but it still is a flaw, one of the few he actually has as Zemo pointed out.
>>82666147
>major criminal
>a person instrumental in saving the ENTIRE PLANET and stopping a terrorist from killing hundreds of people in a crowded market
Man who isn't a major criminal to you?
>>82666175
Same.
>>82666129
>They never went into a fight with the intent to kill their enemies
Opening of AoU
>>82666162
If the winning side got hit with war crimes Curtis LeMay would have been prosecuted. The winners get a pass.
>>82666220
You mean the same person that helped put the planet in danger, and released a monster on a city knowing full well what it could do?
Wanda did bad shit anon, accept it.
>>82666175
But he's right. Tony only cares about Tony and his feelings.
>>82666220
People who didn't intentionally create city-wide disasters.
>>82666168
>and thus we prove Cap's right
No we prove Tony's right
If Cap co-operated with the authorities, especially if Bucky had co-operated with the authorities, less people would have been hurt
This was still when they didn't even know Zemo had faked it
>>82666030
Yes yes, nobody ever bleeds out after being hit with arrows. Hulk only lightly taps people. Explosions don't harm anyone. Iron Man blaster beams only slightly harm you. Thor's hammer is just a toy.
The whole point of the movie is that the Avengers cause fatalities, even when the movie doesn't focus on them at the time.
Come on man,
>>82665867
My god, the sheer delusions of your mind are fascinating. Keep posting, because I simply cannot stop reading the hilariously backwards opinions you hold. You sound like a cold war era dictator trying to justify the suppression of freedom
>>82666220
She and her brother did help Kilroy a few weeks ago
>>82666059
It made it weird for me, like he was going after his neice
The reaction from falcon and Bucky were priceless though
>>82666220
She sent the Hulk to attack a city
>>82666255
That's bullshit and you know it.
>>82666220
>also a person who was instrumental in dooming the entire planet in the first place and stopped a wanted terrorist from being taken in to the proper authorities
>>82666240
>opening of AoU
Strucker: "who gave the command to open fire?"
Henchman: "the perimeter guard panicked"
Cap (talking to Falcon at the party): "if I had known it was going to be a firefight I would have called you"
get fucking reked faggot
Let's talk about collateral damage at the airport.
What did Team Iron Man destroy? Spidey broke some windows. Tony blew up some vehicles while trying to stop Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch Vision Blew up a tower. Ants wrecked a jet. Wanda trashed a whole parking lot.
And that's them not trying too hard. Yet people say they don't need oversight.
>>82666297
Yet historically accurate.
>>82666153
I bet you said that too when people said the Avengers might have hurt people through collateral damage in New York.
The fucking theme of the movie is that the action scenes have consequences.
>>82666215
>but it is completely ok when you build said robot in the first place
>>82665626
>>82665642
>>82665685
You dense motherfuckers: Tony put her under "house arrest" specifically to avoid shit like that. She had food, companionship, amenities, freedom to do as she wanted within the house, but she couldn't walk to the store to get groceries because everyone wanted to nail her ass to the wall and Tony was busy trying to call off the dogs. It was a temporary measure to buy time, and about as far from "effectively prison" as you can get. All those horrible consequences, the jail and the straitjacket and the collar? All that came after she said "No, fuck you" and stormed off, like a contrarian child.
Considering the deaths she attempted and succeeded in causing in Age of Ultron, it's pretty impressive that anyone even has enough faith in her to give her all that effort, and even more impressive that it was the person she most directly ruined the life of.
>>82666309
So they expected to what, just stroll into the compound. Are they retarded?
>>82666265
>Cap co-operated with the authorities
Bucky would be dead. At what point do we hold the authorities responsible for not cooperating?
>>82665579
Not to mention Tony and Ross tried to have Cap sign the accords three days before the official signing, ASAP, and without a concrete plan, holy fuck that's some fishy pork barreling there.
I mean Steve asked a lot of questions about it and Tony was all "Lol I dunno but we will digure something out" for a genius Stark is such a retard.
>>82666336
Tony and Baner didn't plan to make Robo-Hitler
>>82666281
Nice argument
I like how you completely abandoned yours and insulted my personality and opinions instead of mine
>suppression of freedom
you mean one man's freedom, even though he's a terrorist who helped a giant evil world dominating syndicate and refuses to turn himself into the police or even attempt to help people neutralize threats like the other winter soldiers?
>>82666331
They need a liaison. Oversight would likely mean either a politically directed team or a very slow to react one.
>>82666347
It's fucking stupid.
"Hey guys, if Iron Man, Captain America, Thor and the Hulk just walk up to this Hydra base maybe they'll just stop being evil!"
Regardless on whos right, Ross was a fucking asshole who should have been fired after the Abomination mess
>>82666374
>oops...
>>82666215
Why isn't Tony in jail then? Or face any public prosecution or fucking ANYTHING for creating Ultron on purpose?
>>82666347
They weren't sent to kill all Hydra. They show more restraint than the cops. I like how you're trying to spin this though. If the Avengers just go for the kill every time they're wrong, and if they don't they're wrong.
>>82663998
They were both wrong for the right reasons.
Tony knows that the Avengers are way too powerful and absolutely need to be kept in check, and that Bucky is too dangerous to be left to his own devices.
Steve knows that no government agency is trustworthy enough to oversee the Avengers (after what happened with SHIELD), that the Avengers just can't sit around and wait for Adam- I mean the UN's authorization when every second they waste could mean the difference between life and death for thousands (if not millions) of people, and that Bucky needs help in reversing his brainwashing and not punishment for actions he had no control over.
>>82666364
Tony was stressed as shit and Cap just helped a wanted terrorist get out of custody. He was trying to get Steve to sign so Ross wouldn't throw his Star Spangled ass in jail.
>>82666337
She was told she was trusted and then Tony went behind her back and locked her up. Not a good start to the relationship.
It's been 5 days+ and there's some facts people STILL miss
>Those were flashbang grenades, nonlethal
>The TUNNEL(not overpass) was still standing, and looked to still be structurally sound. a chunk of the end was blown up as a means of slowing down his pursuers.
>Bucky, when brought in was NOT going to be given a fair trial. He was going to be given a Psych eval, then extradited to Wakanda. Where a vengeful Black Panther was waiting to kill him for a crime he didn't commit
What people are missing about the idea of "Oh how could they kill Bucky on sight! That's not Justice!"
Tell me, those people in Bucharest that Bucky would have killed in the stairwell if Cap hadn't held him back, would that have been justice?
What about the people who died in Berlin when Bucky got triggered and killed guards after Zemo's attack. Was that justice?
Was Bucky interested in justice when he hid out for several years instead of coming forward about what he did? He could have avoided EVERYTHING Zemo tried to do, but he didn't.
When considering lofty principles, you must consider how those principles apply to the entire situation, not just see one example of a principle being defied, and say it's just fine to cause any damage you want to other innocents, just because you're stopping one injustice, or else you can't really say you're upholding those principles.
Vision had the right idea the whole time about the "collective good". He knew what had to happen for the Avengers to stay together while causing less disaster. but it all fell apart because some people don't know when the fight's not worth fighting.
>>82666357
>Bucky would be dead
No he wouldn't
They weren't sent to kill him, they were sent to kill if he was resisting too hard
And even if they were sent to eradicate him, Bucky would have still beaten up all of those guys
And even then, he wasn't killed after beating up the entire squad and ruining public and private property
If Cap went through the proper channels, there'd be no squad of guys and he'd have the authority to bring Bucky in himself
>>82666406
>who needs to be put in jail
>the guy who designed the gun
>or the guy who used a gun to kill someone
>>82666457
How about the guy who gave the gun consciousness
>>82666433
>The TUNNEL(not overpass)
When I saw it, I swear I thought it was an overpass when they zoomed out.
>>82666427
>Cap just helped a wanted terrorist get out of custody
Cap helped him get INTO custody. The plan was to kill him. Ross even laments " and we would have killed him too, if not for that Meddling Rogers"
>>82666440
>Was Bucky interested in justice when he hid out for several years instead of coming forward about what he did? He could have avoided EVERYTHING Zemo tried to do, but he didn't.
Yes, Bucky should've come forward and give himself in to the US government that was infiltrated by HYDRA.
You fucking retard.
>>82666430
People wanted her head on a spike, Tony was making sure that didn't happen.
>>82666411
What spin? I haven't even posted in this thread untill then you fucknugget
>>82666487
Still, the guy who gave the gun consciousness didn't kill anyone
>>82666497
Yeah, that was a fun evil line, but contradicts everything that happened in the scene we saw.
>>82666379
>even though he's a terrorist
against his will and out of his control
>helped a giant evil world dominating syndicate
against his will and out of his control
>refuse to turn himself into the police
that wanted to kill him, and then he was turned in
>or even attempt to help people neutralize threads like the other winter soliders
You mean like how he did that very thing by telling Cap and Sam about them, where they are, and what they could do? It's not his fault Tony wouldn't believe Cap.
>>82666487
Who do you blame, the serial killer or the serial killers parents?
>>82666513
But Bruce and Tony just left Ultron their in it's first moments of life with access to EVERYTHING.
>>82666534
It didn't contradict shit, the police was firing at Bucky in his apartment.
>>82666374
But you know what Tony wanted to do to stop Robo-Hitler, drop Sokovia to the ground while people were still there and once Cap stopped him his bright idea became to make another possible Robo-Hitler.
Also how come people pardon Stark and Banner for Ultron because "they didn’t mean to" and use the same excuse for Tony selling weapons that were used to hurt others especially when he made conscious and sound of mind decisions to do it, not caring what they were going to be utilize for (although you get a pretty fucking god idea).
Yet Bucky gets forced into it and he doesn't have a choice in his actions but suddenly the "didn’t mean to" is not excusable, Tonyfags pls.
And again the intentions of dropping Sokovia to the ground, full of people, that he meant to, good thing for the Sokovians that Cap was there.
>>82666556
Both
>>82666440
Why did they send a team of people to kill Bucky on sight? That's not how the UN is supposed to operate. Bucky correctly knew that he would not receive a fair trial. That's what separates us from the lesser nations and peoples. EVERYONE deserves a fair trial, and everyone should get one. International terrorists/criminals are tried in the Hague all the time, but they didn't want to do that for Bucky, they just sent in officers to kill him. Plus the fucking government was run by Hydra.
>>82666455
Pay the fuck attwntion to the movie
> They weren't sent to kill him
They had a shoot to kill order. Ross later even says Bucky would have been killed had Cap not intervened.
>And even if they were sent to eradicate him, Bucky would have still beaten up all of those guys
In self defense
>And even then, he wasn't killed after beating up the entire squad and ruining public and private property
Because War Machine showed up. War Machine was literally the first person they sent who was willing to take him alive.
>If Cap went through the proper channels,
He called Widow first and she just told him to stay away.
>>82666433
>>Bucky, when brought in was NOT going to be given a fair trial. He was going to be given a Psych eval, then extradited to Wakanda
That totally makes up for trying to kill police officers and civilians and not bringing yourself in earlier, ok then!
>>82666599
>parents should be jailed for their offspring's crimes
wew
>>82666337
>Considering the deaths she attempted and succeeded in causing in Age of Ultron, it's pretty impressive that anyone even has enough faith in her to give her all that effort, and even more impressive that it was the person she most directly ruined the life of.
>tfw you realize that it was Wanda who literally spurred on Tony to create Ultron
>tfw Wanda assisted Ultron in his goals
>tfw Tony ends up paying for Ultron's actions through the lives lost and the Sokovia Accords
>>82664929
>Trust this one guy to serve yout intetests without listening to any law ot power because he is a "good man"
You would think Cap of all people would undertand that.
>>82666427
>Tony was stressed
Poor wittle Twony wa stressed enough to fuck his own civil liberties and others, Stark truly is a retard.
>>82666534
No it fucking doesn't
>>82666562
It all ended in an arrest, and nothing Cap did influenced that.
If anything, it was Rhodes, by getting them to stop and stand down.
>>82666590
Banner is already wanted for a completely other reason.
>>82666337
>Considering the deaths she attempted and succeeded in causing in Age of Ultron
she only followed Ultron because he told them he wanted to "end stark and save the world"
she had no intentions of killing innocent people
how much bullshit can you pull out of your ass to defend the asshole who's indirectly responsible of making her go rogue in the first place?
>>82666650
>turn the Hulk crazy and send him into a city
>because she's such a nice person
>>82666610
Bring himself to whom? The government that was infiltrated by HYDRA?
>>82665377
They had a fucking Infinity gem a reality warper and the most advanced weapon in human history.
They could over throw a nation in a long weekend.
>>82666607
MUH self-defense
>>82666499
>Yes, Bucky should've come forward and give himself in to the US government that was infiltrated by HYDRA.
It's been 2 years since the Winter Soldier, man. You've got to let this shit go. I can believe the amount of time people were saying up to this movie "But Cap's right because obviously registering the Avengers is a HYDRA plot!" And what do you know. It wasn't. It was the more obvious thing that turning Avenger against Avenger was the plot.
Backing up a specious argument with "but it could be HYDRA, which instantly makes that option evil!" is pretty weak.
ITT Fascists and Fascist Starkfags
>>82666610
You are still given a fair trial after that.
>>82664842
They did literally nothing wrong
>>82666641
What did Cap do to turn the kill order into an arrest?
>>82666650
Wanda literally asked Ultron if he was going to end the Avengers and happily complied when Ultron said that he was. Hell she basically pushed Banner to go on a rampage as Hulk. Putting aside Civil War even for a moment, I'd say that's pretty fucked up.
>>82666629
>tfw Tony ends up paying for Ultron's actions through the lives lost and the Sokovia Accords
>Tony
>paying the consequences
>>82666675
Eurocuck please go.
>>82664929
Not even comparable, Superman and the JL are powerful enough to take over the world, Cap goes rogue bad like that and he gets easily taken down.
The reason he wasn't in this movie it's because no one besides Zemo was trying to kill HIM.
>>82666610
No one needs to "make up" for self defense. They were trying to kill him first.
>>82664478
>Captain America we will intervene in your lives whether you want it or not
>>82666545
>against his will and out of his control
>against his will and out of his control
He's essentially a weapon who refuses to be unloaded
And then when someone picks him up and ends lives, you want to say "it's not his fault because he didn't pull his own trigger"
He didn't have to pull his own trigger, but he could at least let himself be locked up in a safe where nobody can use him ie jail
>that wanted to kill him, and then he was turned in
Not right after the events of winter soldier
And even after the T'Chaka bombing, he still could have turned himself in instead of running away, he limited his options from fair trial to swift response to his actions
>You mean like how he did that very thing by telling Cap and Sam about them, where they are, and what they could do? It's not his fault Tony wouldn't believe Cap.
You mean like how he didn't do until the very last second, even though he could help out his home country by telling them about their existence basically right after he gets captured
>>82666629
All part of her master plan, clearly.
>>82666650
>no intentions of killing innocent people
>sends hulk insane and send him into a metropolitan area
right...
>>82666700
smacked the fuck out of the guys trying to kill
handed him over to War Machine
>>82666703
Well if anyone was to literally ever pay for the shit the Avengers cause, it sure as hell always going to be Tony just because he's the rich boy and everyone else is a poorfag.
>>82666740
Then what's the next step?
>>82665119
>>82665041
The Movie KNOWS Cap was wrong its why the trilogy ends with the death of Captain America
>>82666770
Crashing Africa.
With no survivors!
>>82666777
Even Cap admitted to Tony that he royally fucked up by never telling him about the truth of his parents' deaths due to selfish reasons.
>>82666724
They did lock him a jail.
The first fucking thing that happened was Zemo breaking him out and using the trigger words to get him in kill mode. The government is obviously fucking retarded in the MCU and cannot be trusted.
>>82666688
Like the Avengers give Hydra agents? Like Osama Bin Laden got?
And regardless, Bucky's freak out and killing happened before his arrest, it had no bearing on his situation/actions.
Also, Tony and Steve are shown to have massive pull with the people that captured them, if things were handled civil Bucky might as well been put on ice.
>>82666607
>They had a shoot to kill order
No they had a shoot to kill if necessary order
Bucky wouldn't have died because he would have beaten them all up, but had Bucky not the ability to do so, they wouldn't have killed him unless he did something to warrant it
Like run away
>In self defense
It's not okay to beat up the police if they are trying to arrest you
It's still not okay to beat up the police if they are trying to make sure you cannot fight back before they arrest you
>Because War Machine showed up
War machine only showed up because the level before it had failed
He only showed up because he had to show up, because everything else wasn't working
>He called Widow first
That's still not a proper channel
Widow has never been in a position of power that would be able to legally do anything about anything
>>82666668
>>82666751
>>82666650
>>82666337
How the fuck was Wanda not in Jail to begin with?
And why is it she only seems to kill africans with her bullshit?
>>82666606
Bucky is not your average terrorist. he is an enhanced individual, the world has seen multiple times what these enhanced individuals are capable
Now this enhanced individual already has a recorded history of terrible military crimes. No surprise that they were going for the Bin Laden treatment after he is suspected in blowing up a leader in the UN dead
>>82666764
War Machine was part of the same group that the kill squad, Tony, Black Widow etc were part of.
They stood down. THAT saved his life.
>>82666793
>>82665333
>>82665414
>>82665362
Wouldnt that just prove his point?
Isnt he doing the same shit Pierce did? Save the world how you see fit fuck the governments?
>>82666777
You think he is gonna start his ownSecretAvengers
>>82666816
>The first fucking thing that happened was Zemo breaking him out and using the trigger words to get him in kill mode
That wouldn't have happened if Bucky had given himself up after Winter Soldier events happened
>The government is obviously fucking retarded in the MCU and cannot be trusted
Didn't we just have that Justice Lords argument earlier
Regardless, Bucky would have been blameless and nobody would have been arrested
Especially if Cap had sat down with anyone and said "Hey, there's someone mind controlling Bucky, so he's blameless, and that person's more dangerous than everyone"
>>82666648
Add one more then
>>82666716
They obviously didn't when he stood down and wasn't a threat. They came in with flashbangs and smoke, they only fired after the grenades were thrown back and it was obvious there was resistance.
>>82666724
You're speaking from the mindset of someone who isn't going through an imperial fuckton of shit in the matter of hours. I doubt if you, I, or Stark found out we were wanted for a UN bombing we didn't commit, we would immediately walk to the nearest police station. We would be in a fucking state of shock.
He was captured, sat for a bit, then got triggered
>>82664385
That's because you'd expect Tony to be a dick, and that makes every good decision he makes meaningful.
In the other hand, you'd expect Cap to be right and good, and when he's a dick, it really stand out.
It's just expectations.
>>82666898
A life sentence is still a life sentence.
>>82666824
>And why is it she only seems to kill africans with her bullshit?
Sokovians are known nigger haters
>>82666668
>>82666702
>>82666751
how was she suppose to know banner would go on a rampage directly into some city?
as far as we know she just wanted to subdue him as she did with everyone else
>>82666921
Because then the Hulk would've been subdued.
>>82666714
>It's okay to break the law if you aren't powerful enough to break it tooooo much
>>82666823
>No they had a shoot to kill if necessary order
Sharon says they have a shoot on sight order. Ross says Bucky would have been eliminated if Cap wasn't there. Quit ignoring the facts presented in the movie.
> It's not okay to beat up the police if they are trying to arrest you
>arrest
see above
> War machine only showed up because the level before it had failed
>He only showed up because he had to show up, because everything else wasn't working
This is true but it doesn't change the fact that everyone before that was going to kill him and War Machine was the first one willing to take him into custody.
>That's still not a proper channel
Who shoukd he have called? He had also talked to Sharon, a CIA agent who had been working the case, and she couldn't change the kill order either. Why is it Cap's fault the authorities are trying to execute people and not the authorities' fault?
Cap was approximately infinite% more correct than Stark
>>82663998
Only children who don't know shit about the UN side with Tony. They should have just made it the US government or Shield 2.0 or something so that both sides had actual legitimacy.
>>82666905
If I'm innocent, but being framed for a crime I didn't do, then I have enough experience to try to comply with the authorities as best as I can to eliminate any extra doubt or suspicion
His plan was to run, so we know he had a plan
His plan wasn't to comply, it was to resist
>>82666921
>as far as we know she just wanted to subdue him as she did with everyone else
Didn't she and Quicksilver know that the Avengers had a green rage monster on their side when Strucker's base was attacked early on in the film? I mean that's even putting aside the fact that she was willing to "tear them apart from the inside".
>>82666921
She fucking knew exactly what he would have done, it was all a part of Ultrons plan.
>>82665414
>Cap refused to sign anything or even attempt to work towards a compromise
Lies. At the beginning he wentvto the funeral before they were done discussing it. Later he was about to sign until Tony told him they were keeping Wanda hostage. He was the most willing to compromise in the movie.
Compared to Tony "shut up ur delusional" Stark and Thaddeus "I'm not listening to you even when you bring me crucial evidence" Ross
>>82666987
Remember that part where they get arrested by the authorities (only because of Cap otherwise they would have murdered him with no trial) and the bad guy infiltrates the oh so competent UN and completely fucks over Bucky. Yeah. Real trustworthy folks there.
Why is Captain America saying that personal power belongs to specific individuals by their very nature as opposed to the will of the people. Isnt that literally what Americawasfounded. Against?
