What is the lazier plot device used by writers, Speedforce or Pym Particles?
It's always Speedforce.
Speedforce by far. Speedforce legitimately makes me angry and put me off DC comics.
>>82605910
this
it's always speedforce.
pym particles generally obey their own limits. can only grow to X height, conservation of mass, strength, etc. it's comic SCIENCE that you can be fine with
but speedforce is pure bullshit
>>82605895
>Barry there's generic X problem that we can't beat
>lol speedforce
>X problem has been resolved.
I love The Flash don't get me wrong but there is a limit to the amount of times "lol speedforce" as an answer to everything works
Whose run has the most Speedforce bullshit?
>>82606559
I dont remember any specific runs but god damn one thing always pissed me off was that Wally could make his costume OUT of speedforce.
>>82606121
>>82609111
Legit autism.
>>82609185
What's your take on the Speedforce?
>>82606121
You got mad at the best Flash comics ever printed?
>>82609111
Why would this, of all things, make you mad?
And are you like 60? Because that shits from the mid 90s. How jaded could you have been?
>>82605895
Speedforce is cool.
The concept of "Speedforce" honestly comes off like people who heard about Star Wars, but had no concept of how "The Force" worked
Lets put it this way, someone had to create Pym Particles and they loosely relate to physics. Speedforce is vague bullshit that never runs out and magically gives speedsters the ability to do whatever as long as the run fast enough
>>82605895
Speed Force. Especially because it's used as a catch all answer, explaining shit that didn't even need to be explained.
>Wally's costume is made out of Speed Force
>How does the cowl stay on? Speed Force
At least during the Silver Age, they'd give some sort of pseudoscience explanation when Barry pulled some crazy shit.
>itt people who have never read a Flash comic and knowledge of the speedforce comes from wikipedia articles.
I haven't read any Flash but this speedforce stuff sounds fun. Where should I start?
>>82605895
Speedforce
>Because Speedforce the Flash can outrun death
>That doesn't make sense shouldn't Death still be alive since he's running FASTER than the flash and is probably surviving the same way h-
>SPEEDFORCE!!!!
>>82609990
They needed a way to explain how he can save a city from a nuclear explosion while its nuclear exploding without turning them into goo in the process.
>>82610233
So what limitations speedforce has, then?
>>82610233
Defensive people always sound the same.
>>82610287
For the longest time the Speed Force WAS the limitation. It was the thing that punished and stopped the Flash from going too fast.
He could still go all infinite speed but why risk being sucked into the Speed Force forever for every bit criminal?
>>82610257
Waid's run
>>82610233
No way, /co/ is too stupid to read, that's why barely anyone here reads comics.
They either learned it from the tv show, that one Justice League episode or the Flashpoint film.
>>82609990
No, just a bunch of nerdy comic book writers wanting a catch-all way of getting rid of all of the "but why doesn't Flash ignite the atmosphere?" and "why doesn't Flash shrink when she approaches the speed of light?" questions nerds like to ask.
>>82610380
I mean, Flash existed for many, many years before the Speed Force. That's not why Waid made the Speed Force.
>>82610257
A lot of the 90's Wally West era stuff
>ie. he broke his legs and rolled around in a wheel chair until he got this costume
>>82610379
>that's why barely anyone here reads comics that aren't webcomic.
The fact homestuck is still being spoken here proves cape comic fans rarely read anything but cape comics.
>>82610315
Who changed that limitation?
>>82605895
didn't a flash with the speedforce run faster than the flash death or something?
>>82606559
ironically, Waid. Who is considered to have the Best Flash run, he developed most of the concepts and everything.
>>82610380
Does his protective barrier come from the speedforce? I thought he had that before the speedforce was introduced.
>>82610440
>The fact homestuck is still being spoken here proves cape comic fans rarely read anything but cape comics.
I don't see how those relate to each other at all.
>>82605895
Speedforce.
But that's wha happens when you try to turn silver age heroes into serious heroes.
Superman can pull it off because Superman is more than his power but Flash is just LOL SPEED and nothing more.
>>82605895
I like the CW Flash. That said, every major villain, including the new one for next season is a speedster. It shouldn't be that hard to make up a villain that is a challenge with an original power.
>>82610428
RIP morrison millar friendship.
>>82605895
Speedforce, and on a related note, "vibrations" as a catch-all for weird multiversal DC stuff.
>>82605895
Black Ant-Man....heh that was hilarious.
This classic SNL sketch felt like the writers actually looked into the comics for inspiration than whoever is popular.
>>82610522
Speedforce was always around in the comics since he first got the lighting bolt.
Its just that it was named in the 90s and used to expand on the fun things flash could do with speed. Like it or not, but it was interesting seeing wally learn new tricks like sucking the speed out of his opponents or lending his speed to others.
>>82605895
Terrigen
>>82610698
>That said, every major villain, including the new one for next season is a speedster.
>Next season
What
>>82605895
NOTHING BEATS SPEED"ITSMAGIC"FORCE
>>82605895
Speedforce
>>82606121
But you're perfectly fine with the power cosmic?
>>82610380
Then jist have the speedforce allow that don't use it for the bullshit they do.
>>82605895
Speedfore. At least Marvel has tried to explain Pym Particles
>>82605895
Rape making someone DEEP and Homosex making a loser character marketable.
>>82605895
>5 billion silverbacks gorillas with Speed Paraticles
VS.
>2 Suns made of ice with Pym Force
Who wins?
>>82618677
It's an either/or question.
>>82618828
Grodd
>>82610522
>Does his protective barrier come from the speedforce
>>82612846
I always thot that "Speedforce" was just an elaboration on his "super-speed aura" anyway.
>>82618828
If you had 2 rabbits with the speed force, and you chucked them inside Galactus, they could reproduce so quickly, he'd stay fed forever. Because the speedforce in inheritable.
>>82618668
I feel trying to explain it just causes more problems
Speedforce is still far worse though
>>82619267
Auctualy looking at the page I rescind my statement
>>82618962
But what would the rabbits feed on
>>82619434
The Power Cosmic.
>>82618949
It pretty much is as all it does is put a name to comic book science.
Yes.
>>82605895
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndSp1zM_8cY
>that level of actual comic book knowledge pre superhero boom
impressive
but you could feel the normie audience looking awkwardly at each other
>>82619496
So people should stop getting buttflustered about it? It's the same kind of thing that keeps buses, buildings, and ships from coming apart in the hands of Superman when he lifts/catches them.
>>82605895
Speed Particles
vs
Pymforce
>>82612480
Belushi was funny as fuck as Fatso Hulk.
>>82606506
>I love The Flash don't get me wrong but there is a limit to the amount of times "lol speedforce" as an answer to everything works
Point to one example.
>>82619758
They also did a skit that was basically Red Son with Nazi Germany a few decades before Red Son was published. The NRFPT players knew their shit.
>>82606559
Waid on Wally.
>>82605895
Venom blast.
>>82610274
That's not what happened.
Has anyone in this thread actually read a Flash comic?
>>82606559
Waid invented speed force bullshit
>>82610287
It can eat you.
>>82610474
Like everything Flash, Geoff Johns broke it to suck Barry's dick.
>>82618553
The power cosmic isn't central to the fucking main team, and it doesn't really break physics, just uses esoteric properties of the universe.
Speed force just nopes the fuck out of even the very thin reality it's set in as soon as it arrives, which is BEFORE YOU WERE BORN BECAUSE IT WAS ME, BARRY.
Speedforce is garbage.
>>82610476
Flash outrunning death was a Morrison tier mind fuckery. He ran to the end of time such that death no longer existed as a concept.
>>82610522
>Does his protective barrier come from the speedforce? I thought he had that before the speedforce was introduced.
It does now. In the silver age his barrier came from the chemicals spilled on him in the original accident.
>>82612304
>"vibrations" as a catch-all for weird multiversal DC stuff.
Isn't that just a play on string theory?
>>82620021
>The power cosmic isn't central to the fucking main team
How many Avengers use or have used the power cosmic? Most of them? Yeah.
>>82619486
Works for me
Does anyone have that page where Flash is racing against an imaginary friend on the wavelength of light or something like that?
>>82620230
It's a full arc, it's Krakl in "The human race" by Morrison.
That's the arc where Wally outruns instant teleportation.
>>82619760
The speedforce itself isn't the problem. It's Flash writers taking "can tap into the speed force for more speed" to its logical extreme and letting him use it to pull of Silver Age Superman-level bullshit.
>>82620510
But what's wrong with a super hero having super powers?
The paradoxical time powers and the problems that come with that are what makes the character interesting. How the character handles failure granted he is near god like status in power is interesting to read.
>>82620399
how does that even work in the comic's universe?
instant I guess means reallly really really quick but still takes up some small amount of time to happen.
>>82620085
>use
Almost none
>have used
For anything more than a one off? Pretty much nobody.
>>82605895
>>82606506
speedforce by a long shot
Pym Particles have a logic to them. Regular ones make you small, inverse ones make you big. Simple.
Speed Force is just "I can do this now, fuck you." I love the Flash, but that's basically what it is.
>>82620510
Silver Age Superman is best Superman
>>82620085
The 3 Captain Marvels, Gravity, and Quasar sure are "most of the avengers
>>82620568
Well in the arc there are a set of higher dimensional beings that traverse the multiverse for speedsters and then race them against each other like horses so they can gamble.
They force the competitors to run by threatening to blow up the planet of the losing competitor. So Wally is selected and ends up having to run against his childhood imaginary friend Krakl. The twist is that even if you win, another competitor is selected and you go again until you eventually lose (Krakl is on his 6th run).
Wally finds a way to beat the race by playing to the gambling addicted side of the higher beings. He bets he can outrace one of them back to earth, they take him up on that because they have instant teleportation. However, Wally knows the teleportation works by simply travelling through the 4th dimension which appears instant in the third. This is because was equipped with a higher dimensional radio in order to converse with earth whilst he raced. He spoke to Linda and then chased the message through the 4th dimension to get home, this appeared instant-er in the third.
>>82612480
That's Garett Morris, he was also in the Ant-Man movie
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/07/20/the-most-important-easter-egg-in-ant-man
>>82620021
The only reason the power cosmic isn't speed force tier levels of stupid is that the guy who weilds it is rearely in a comic. And most of the writers forgot the shit it does.
Off the top of my head its:
Enabled faster than light travel
Creation of life on barren planets
Ability to suck all the radiation out of the hulk
Grants cosmic sense (aka spider-sense on crack)
But all we ever see it used for is laser beams and Kirby sparkles.
>>82619869
Source?
>>82605895
Speed Particles of the Pym Force
>>82618828
>Suns made of ice
You made me remember that people actually have said that unironically. Fuck you.
>>82621059
>10. Michael Palin, The Doobie Brothers (01-27-1979).avi
Can anyone list some examples of speedforce bullshit? I'm pretty curious.
>>82621163
I meant the comic, but thanks for the SNL.
>>82618668
Actually, this is really fucking smart
>>82619758
Shocked Spider-Woman was part of the crew. You would think they would have had Wonder Woman for another female hero.
>>82621259
It's completely silly.
>>82621177
People in the thread imply that Flash gets into an unwinnable situation and then just "lol speedforce" and gets out. AFAIK that has never happened.
That misconception comes from people who didn't bother reading the comics thinking Flash uses "lol speedforce" to solve problems when in reality he uses "lol speedforce" to explain away real world physics problems that come with travelling at the speed he does.
How come people don't explode when the Flash catches them?
How come the air around him doesn't explode?
How does he go faster than light?
The speedforce is the answer to those questions, but he has never just magiced a solution with the speedforce.
>>82621500
Give it a minute.
>>82621500
Here we go.
>>82621715
But again, that isn't "lol speedforce". The Flash has had accelerated healing since day 1 and increasing the rate of healing has been shown as a speed ability since Dead Heat. Savitar could do that BEFORE he merged with the speedforce.
This isn't a case of Wally being in trouble and inventing a new ability, healing has always been an ability and accelerated healing was introduced along with the Savitar character.
>>82621837
ho hum
>>82621883
What does that have to do with the speedforce?
>>82621204
It's Dr. Slump.
>>82621923
He is using it to defeat the special death reserved for users of the speedforce.
>>82621426
yes but it does make some sense in comic book world
>>82618668
This is retarded and I love it.
>>82621923
>the flash outrunning death itself until they literally reach the end of the universe
>not lol speedforce
>>82622017
Wally and Jay run to the ends of time in COIE before the speed force was introduced, so you can't say he just 'lol speedforced' his way to the end of time, this is a feat that does not depend on the speedforce at all and had precedent in Flash comics.
>>82622085
Which itself makes no sense.
>>82622095
He slips into the time stream and runs, that is something the Flash has been able to do forever. It doesn't call on the speed force to asspull some magic.
That's also not 'death itself', it's the black Flash, a reaper for speedsters.
>>82605895
wow classic snl is kinda bad
>>82622114
His powers come from the Speed Force. Ever since it was introduced, every feat The Flash ever did has been retroactively made reliant on the Speed Force. That he's not literally doing a Silver Age style dialogue of explaining how he's inventing a new superpower to get out of the wall the writers put him into doesn't mean it's not lol speedforce
>>82622236
All SNL is bad.
>>82622236
It is much better than modern SNL.
>>82622319
no u.
>>82619758
>>82620805
I fucking love how literally everything about Hickvengers and secret wars was done better before it.
>>82622243
>That he's not literally doing a Silver Age style dialogue of explaining how he's inventing a new superpower to get out of the wall the writers put him into doesn't mean it's not lol speedforce
Show a single example of the Flash "inventing a new superpower to get out of the wall the writers put him into", you haven't actually established that this has ever happened.
>>82622531
Did you mean to respond to me regarding Krakl? Did secret wars do something similiar?
>>82622319
i dunno, i loved the early 2000's when fey and poehler were on board
>>82622494
>the way his bulge is peeking out of his undies at the very end
lmao
>>82622595
i dont think it did, i have no idea what anon is talking about.
>>82623272
Multiversal dicks forcing two worlds to fight, loser has earth destroyed, winner has to keep fighting.
>>82622494
>(Uses X-ray vision)
"Mein Fuhrer! This man is a Jew!!"
>>82625422
Hey, someone else watched it.
>>82605895
Batman
I don't follow. Give me an example where speedforce was used to explain something so bs it pissed you off.
Speed Particles
>>82620799
Mar-Vell and Quasar get their powers from the Negative Zone and Quantum Zone, not Power Cosmic
>>82605895
Healing factor
