>people actually debating sides of Tony and Cap
>Zemo wasn't what I wanted, but he helped fuel the dispute
>Panther and Spidey done justice
>Made Falcon actually cool
Where was you when the Based Russo's not only saved cape shit, but took the source material and made it better? Isn't this how happy everyone was when Avengers 1 came out?
>Deadpool was pretty good
>XMen has been consistently great (minus 3) throughout
>Daredevil, Punisher, Jessica Jones are all great
>Iron Fist soon
>Black Panther soon
>maybe a good Thor movie with the What we do in the Shadows guy directing
What else are you guys hype for?
>>82603790
It wasnt too hard to make something better than Civil War but they did the Tony-Steve conflict justice
You could have given the Civil War comic to a mouse and he would have made it better, making a better adaption of that drivel is hardly an achievement worth bragging about. You movie-only fucks have got it lucky with how ignorant you are.
>>82603790
This was the best God damned scene in the movie. Captain & friends road-trip movie when?
>>82603848
>I'm a comic book specialist.
>>82603790
The reasons for the accord itself was stupid, Tony/Steve conflict was good and reasonable up until the movie's Martha moment, Zemo sucked and was mostly just a plot tool instead of an actual character, Spiderman and Falcon were cool, BP was boring, had no personality and was essentially a dude in cat suit who scratched people.
Looking back Avengers one had the appeal of it being one of a kind, now that all this other shit is out it really isn't that special especially since Whedon is such a poor director.
>>82603809
My only wish is that Fox would just give up and hand Marvel the Fantastic Four rights back. Or maybe if they want to reboot X-Men they can make a deal like Sony did with Marvel Studios.
>>82603882
>Captain & friends road-trip movie when?
I would pay to see this.
>>82603895
>The reasons for the accord itself was stupid
Not really. What happened at the beginning of the movie was just the straw that broke the camel's back. But this isn't the first time that someone's saying the Avengers should be responsible for what they do, and remember that they were originally brought together as a government-sponsored organization.
Besides that, what Ross said about "misplacing" Thor or the Hulk is true; they're powerful fucking people, and someone should at least keep an eye on them. That's not to say that Steve "For fuck's sake I just took down Hydra trying to do basically the same fucking thing last movie" Rogers is wrong, either. But the Sokovia Accords had their merits.
>Tony/Steve conflict was good and reasonable up until the movie's Martha moment,
"Are you fucking kidding me? You fucking knew all along that your best friend, who you've been trying to hide and protect from me, fucking MURDERED MY PARENTS, and you never even bothered to fucking tell me?"
>Zemo sucked and was mostly just a plot tool instead of an actual character
I can't really argue that, though at least he was an effective plot tool. he wasn't Lex Luthor. Zemo managed to actually accomplish his goals. Besides, how much do you really want them to focus on him, in an already crowded movie?
>>82603894
Civil War is legit garbage though
>>82604126
come on man, what's the point of contrarian'ing this hard
i know this is 4chan, but jesus
>>82604207
The comic is pretty bad.
>>82603790
My favorite part is when Vision attempted to murder Falcon but ended up crippling Rhodey instead
>>82604207
I was talking about the comic faggot, If I was being contrarian I would day it was decent
>>82604251
my mistake, then
>>82604242
Rhodes asked Vision to turn "His thruster into a glider." Vision was aiming to shut off the engines so that Falcon could still glide to the ground on the wings, but he'd be grounded because he couldn't get any lift and so he couldn't pursue.
>>82604303
Well that sure backfired on him
>>82604320
Vision turned Rhodes into a brick.
I was more surprised that they actually managed to make Vision interesting at all. That character is such a bronze age clusterfuck of goofy design and bad parenting by Tony, I'm astonished he was actually likeable.
>>82604397
I still wish they just killed him there.
>>82604093
>What happened at the beginning of the movie was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Except there WERE no previous straws. The issue of the Avengers needing to be kept in check or answering to a higher power was hardly ever brought up, if at all, and none of the team ever showed remorse for their actions because there was no need. The perfect chance to do this would have been at the end of AoU, but Whedon shit that bed.
>>82603790
>people actually debating sides of Tony and Cap
Retarded. There is no debate. Tony is wrong. The movie never delves any deeper into the issue because it becomes more retarded the longer you look at it. The Avengers don't need to be kept in check Every death toll would have been exponentially higher had they not acted. They are not at fault for anything. And explain to me, how exactly, the Avengers being contracted by the UN would do ANYTHING to prevent collateral deaths or damage. It wouldn't. The greatest evidence for the Avengers actually needed to be kept in check (Tony creating Ultron, and Hulk rampaging and Tony having to take him down) were totally ignored, because casting a light on Tony's actions would ultimately make him look so bad that kids might not want him on their lunchboxes anymore, and they couldn't bring the Hulk into it because Ruffalo wasn't in this movie. It's pathetic, shallow, transparent and the Sokovia Accords are pants-on-head stupid. The fact that anyone thinks they can "debate" them proves how stupid cape movie audiences are.
The truly sad thing is that the Civil War plot was only shoehorned in because the Russos felt the need to compete with BvS. The ironic thing is that the Civil War plot ended up being the worst thing in the movie.
Every other bit of praise this movie gets is memes. I feel like if Spidey and Ant-Man hadn't been jammed in, this movie might have flopped as hard as it deserved to.
>>82604527
Man, for someone who professes to be so "smart", you have no fucking clue about how politiicans operate. This movie was spot on.
>>82604527
>Incredible Hulk
>Avengers
>Thor 2
>Captain America 2
>Avengers 2
>lol why you tho, governments of the world
>>82604778
>What point is this supposed to make?
>>82604702
>"real life politicians are retarded and disjointed, so that makes this movie okay!"
Yikes. And I thought the people doing mental gymnastics to make BvS look good were insane...
>>82603790
>Made Falcon actually cool
Cute.
>>82603790
I don't think Bucky would've been nodding then if he knew who Sharon actually was. Specifically, who her great aunt was.
>>82604839
I think he still would. Mostly because of the fact that his homie is making out with a girl; that's the only reason he really needs
>>82604829
>Mommy, I don't know what a scapegoat is
As for the other guy, the point he's making is you selectively ignore how the MCU governments respond towards people with superpowers. They're already hostile. Sokovia is simply a welcome excuse to deal with people who challenge their power and souvereignity.
>>82603790
Traditionally I see myself as a DC fanboy and honestly the fact Cap 3 was so damn good made me despair further for DC movies.
It did everything right. After avengers 2 I was done with marvel. The quippage had gone too far and everything just felt tired. Cap 3 brought consequences, some humor and juggled a massive cast without feeling undeveloped.
The fact this movie introduced both Panther and Spiderman in a satisfactory way amazes me.
WB have no hope of replicating this because they are pursing the JL idea for cash and disdain of DC material
>>82603790
Civil War was a reactionary movie that never needed to happen. Not only does it not accomplish anything (the team is split, except not really? It's vague as fuck), but it forces the Avengers into a Cap movie where they don't belong.
The Cap trilogy no longer stands on its own as a trilogy because of this. Iron Man had his own trilogy for the most part, aside from minor references to Avengers 1. The films could be watched on their own and nothing would be confusing.
If one were to watch the Cap movies as a series of their own, the disparity between the ending of Winter Soldier and Civil War is jarring as fuck. It absolutely requires watching that shitty Age of Ultron movie in order to make sense of what's going on.
>Who is this Wanda? Who is Vision? Why are they here?
>Why haven't Steve and Sam found Bucky by now? The stinger at the end of Ant-Man showed that they caught him already. What's going on?
>Oh ok so the stinger actually takes place in the middle of Civil War. Weird. Why did they do that?
>Why did Tony take time out of the Sokovia Accords business to track down Peter Parker? Why would he endanger this kid by putting him in a conflict between far more experienced fighters?
>Why is all this even happening now? A draft similar to the Sokovia Accords should have been made directly after Avengers 1.
>>82603882
>>82604071
Somebody make a petition.
>>82604935
Ironically, while I was in the theater I kept thinking
"wow I bet BvS did the heroes' conflict better," and I hated like two-thirds of civil war.
>>82604945
But without all the other heroes, we wouldn't have gotten the Spider-Man, Ant-Man, and Hawkeye, who were the best parts of the movie.
>>82604884
The fucking amount of shit you have to make up in your own head to support anything that goes on in the MCU is staggering. Who are we saying is a scapegoat?
>>82604884
>you selectively ignore how the MCU governments respond towards people with superpowers
Oh my god. You imply the movies EVER made it seem important how the governments reacted to people with superpowers! It was never important, because Marvel Studios NEVER wanted to make something as controversial as Civil War or "heroes vs. government" a part of their safe, formulaic movie universe. The Russos even admitted this. The only way they got them to change their mind was because WB gave BvS the greenlight.
The idea of the Avengers as a dangerous entity that the world should fear was NEVER brought up, outside of a throw-away line of a random citizen (not the government) mentioning they didn't feel safe at the end of Avengers. And Avengers 2 pretty much tiptoed around the entire hornets nest so that they could have a happy, Whedon-approved ending. The closest they came to making it seem important was when they mentioned that 117 countries had signed the accords, but seeing as how that was only in Civil War, I don't think it counts as any kind of meaningful set-up.
>>82604527
>there is no debate
there have been a shit load of threads filled with debates and people thinking both sides are obviously right.
In the end, there needs to be SOME oversight and people knowing what the fuck they're doing but the UN is pants on head retarded and should be trusted with nothing.
None of this shit would've happened if Fury was there, he's pretty much essential for the team to stay together.
>>82605002
Watch the movies that other guy listed.
>>82604993
>"wow I bet BvS did the heroes' conflict better,"
It did and it didn't. The thing was, Superman didn't really have a conflict. He never WANTED to fight Batman at all. Meanwhile, Batman's motivation to fight Superman was driven by fear and xenophobia, and I think the movie did a great job justifying that. And I think it spoke a lot to Superman's character that, as a hero, he never saw a reason to get physical with Batman, and not once did he personally WANT any hard to come of the Batman, but what finally got him to fight was a dirty bit of manipulation on Luthor's part that preyed on Superman's human psyche.
>>82603790
There's a lot of cool and interesting stuff in it, but I still think the movie has severe problems in terms of story.
It was overstuffed and after Age of Ultron I'm beginning to fear this is just what Marvel is now.
If you're looking at comics, there's three basic types of cape books: solos where they really dive into one character and their supporting cast, team books where a lot of minor characters get a time to shine alongside other characters and events where they just throw everything they have at the wall.
But with the sole exception of Guardians of the Galaxy and arguably the first Avengers movie, the MCU doesn't do any "team movies".
They just do solo and event movies now and I can't help but feel it's getting a bit tireing. They keep trying to have these huge conflicts with intricate stories and so much going on, but then they also remember that they have to use like 6 different B-list Avengers in these movies because no other movies are going to and then on top of that they also always introduce new characters.
They are moving really fucking fast now.
A "New Avengers" movie with a smaller scope would've been dope. Just use Cap's new team for a while, before you dive into the next huge thing. We barely even know half these characters we have in these movies right now, but Marvel is too busy assembeling the next event movie and making even more solo movies.
>>82605021
>there have been a shit load of threads filled with debates
>implying people on /co/ won't debate the most retarded shit
>>82605025
I did. In fact, I noted how most of those movies not only didn't SHOW the government responding to the actions of the Avengers, but more often than not they specifically tip-toed around it. The best foothold the Accords could get would be in mentioning the Hulk, but since the MCU seems to be shoving him on the back burner and can't make any more solo movies, they seem to not want to feature him at all.
Are you seriously just saying "look, big bad things happen in those movies, so the governments were clearly grumpy about it, even though they didn't show it or discuss it or anything at all!"
>>82604993
>But without all the other heroes, we wouldn't have gotten the Spider-Man, Ant-Man, and Hawkeye, who were the best parts of the movie.
I'd be lying if I said Spidey wasn't the best part of the movie. But it's so painfully obvious that he was forced in at the last minute. It's just so out of place. Peter has no business being there.
>>82605103
So, you're just ignoring Hulk, Thor, a nuclear strike, trying to seize Stark's technology, Hydra's political cronies never being arrested or pulled out of play and thus still active.
Kay. Sure, you've seen the movies. I'm totally going to believe you there. You're not just pasta-ing shit from other threads by people who never bothered to watch the films either. Nope, not you! You've seen them all!
>>82605117
Stark needed someone that could take down Cap's team without hurting them. Look at Starks line up vs Caps. It's mostly fire power.
>>82605191
Err, I meant to say without killing them.
>>82605146
What does ANY of that have to do with showing that the governments feel that the Avengers need to be kept in check? Yes, a number of those things are certainly REASONS that the Avengers should be scrutinized, but the movies never fucking addressed it. You're worse than the people who jam tons of subtext into Snyder movies to try and make them seem like kino.
And additionally, the nuclear strike has nothing to do with anything. In fact, it proves the government was willing to have more casualties in one confrontation that the Avengers ever allowed. The government trying to get Stark's suits had NOTHING to do with them feeling the Avengers needed to be kept in check, they just wanted the fucking technology for war mongering.
>>82605207
>lists multiple attempts to put Avengers under government control
>What does ANY of that have to do with showing that the governments feel that the Avengers need to be kept in check?
So, double digit IQ, gotcha.
>>82603882
Never, but we are getting a Thor and Hulk roadtrip film! :D
>>82605237
An intergalactic road trip at that. Get hyped. At least they can end the shitty Thor trilogy going balls out.
>>82604303
Or then Vision just shut him up because he was distracting him from muh wanda and feigned innocent afterwards
>Since when did you fall under the illusion Vision was good?
>>82605217
>lists multiple attempts to put Avengers under government control
Except I explicitly refuted how ANY of those were "attempts to put the Avengers under government control"! None of them were! How were they? Explain! Use examples! This is fucking sad, I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point, but the notion that there is any human being out there who might actually fall for this line of "reasoning" kind of upsets me. Here, let me specifically refute that original "list":
>Incredible Hulk
Government was actively attempting to subdue the Hulk because he was the antagonist of that film. Had nothing to do with keeping Avengers in check. The fact that he was only referenced in a throw-away line in CW was pathetic, because he was the best leverage the movie had against the Avengers operating freely.
>Avengers
Government never once mentioned trepidation over the Avengers. Random citizen says they didn't feel "safe" at the end. The Government was willing to nuke NY, which would have been multiple thousands more casualties than the Avengers could ever be held accountable for
>Thor 2
Government had nothing to do with this movie. Not sure why you mentioned it. Unless you're trying to make it seem like somehow a couple of jets being dispatched during Malekith's attack is them "trying to keep the Avengers in check", god you're not smart.
>Captain America 2
Government NEVER enters the equation. It's all SHIELD, and SHIELD was proven to be a bigger liability than the Avengers here.
>Avengers 2
The most hilarious entry. Tony nearly causes Armageddon, and walks away without any repercussions.
You understand that showing the cause is not the same as showing the reaction? If there is no reaction shown, you cannot just assume that it occurred. Where are the scenes of government lobbying for Avenger subsidization, or even showing they were concerned about the Avengers not being held in check? I'll give you a hint:There weren't any
>>82605312
Eh, I'd still prefer a version of the actual ragnarok story line from the comics.
>>82605407
Way I see it the Sokovia Accords were just an attempt to get the Avengers under government control, because they want to use them to their own ends. Like they've got humanitarian concerns in mind when, as you've said, they wanted to nuke NY to kill the Chitauri.
The timing was just right because of Tony's guilt over Ultron and the rest of the fuckups he's had, and Wanda's guilt over the events with Crossbone.
>>82605532
>having to inject your headcanon into a movie so that it makes any sense
Jesus.
>>82605407
You're not getting a response beyond "watch the fucking movies" from me, because you're either trolling or sperging out. The entire plot of the Incredible Hulk was about government oversight and control over a superpowered person.
I'm also not sure you realise that Shield isn't an "independant agency". SHIELD = the government, you fucking putz.
Nick Fury's whole reason for making the Avengers was to have a team to fight the foes no single super hero could withstand and go around the political bullshit to just save the world.
>>82605569
Headcanon, what the fuck? I drew conclusions based on what I saw in the movie, it's not like I'm claiming Tony's pissed at Steve because they're secretly homoerotic lovers or some shit.
>>82605532
I don't see any sinister motivations like that behind this. Avengers 2 was a huge fuck up by the Avengers in every sense of the word
>Hulk going nuts
>Building ultron
>Letting Hydra super humans join their team
Frankly they didn't even need Scarlet Witch blowing up twenty people to start the Accords, they could have just opened with it in Civil War.
My biggest fault with the plot is why Zemo revealed he was pretending to be Bucky. Seems to me he could have destroyed the evidence and kept the world hating Bucky and by extension Cap forever.
You could argue it was to get Iron Man on their side so that he could have the big reveal, but I feel he could have kept Bucky vilified while still having Iron Man believe Cap's story.
>>82605628
And then it turned out that Nick Fury was running Hydra.
>>82605652
No, you didn't draw conclusions. You made up a plot point that doesn't exist and was never even hinted at. There's a big difference.
>>82604093
>your best friend,
He wasnt his best friend, Rhodey is
And I agree Tony was somewhat justified in going after Bucky. What else was he supposed to do? Weep like a bitch?
>>82605710
I think he meant Bucky as Cap's best friend there.
>>82605746
Right misread it
>>82605692
give a reveal time, wheels within wheels
>>82605710
>And I agree Tony was somewhat justified in going after Bucky. What else was he supposed to do? Weep like a bitch?
Understand that Hydra ordered the death of his family and go after what's left of Hydra rather than essentially trying to destroy the gun that they used to kill his parents?
I understand that Stark has always been self centered so his reaction makes perfect sense, but I don't agree with his course of action.
I did love the twist though. I'm sure some people might have seen it coming but I sure as hell didn't.
>>82605697
Sure, because SHIELD dissolving and losing control over the Avengers, and then the team proceeds to do >>82605674 doesn't give the impression that the governments of the world don't want a repeat of Sokovia, and would rather have the Avengers under their thumb. Or when Ross makes that remark in the film about how he wouldn't let "two 30 megaton bombs like Thor and Hulk run free"
Of course, the meeting in the beginning of the film where Ross brings all the Avengers in just to show them clips of the deaths that happened on their watch WASN'T him guilt-tripping the team into compliance. But alright.
>>82605848
>Ross makes that remark in the film about how he wouldn't let "two 30 megaton bombs like Thor and Hulk run free"
I would have preferred an additional Hulk reference or two from him. I'm guessing most people didn't realize that he was the Hulk-hating Ross.
>>82605800
I think Tony was trying to beat Bucky as revenge on Cap for hiding the truth.
>>82605800
>but I don't agree with his course of action.
You dont have to agree with what he did but it was unimagineable for him to do anything else
>>82605893
I'm still wondering how Cap knew. Did he read some SHIELD file? Did Peggy tell him?
>>82605960
>Did he read some SHIELD file?
Yes, at the end of TWS. A lot of people tend forget that part.
>>82603809
SURGEON WEIRD
>>82605021
I feel like the people taking Tony's side have to be literally retarded or just fucking around.
I mean I have sympathy for the guy and understand his guilt, but none of that changes that his backing Ross is just another in a long string of terrible, terrible decisions.
>>82605982
That sort of goes against what he said about "I didn't know it was him."
Unless when Bucky told him about the Winter Soldiers he immediately thought "oh good it might not have been him!"
>>82605960
He learned from Zola in the bunker during The Winter Soldier.
He didn't come right out and say "Bucky murdered Howard Stark," but he heavily implied that Stark was assassinated by Hydra and Bucky was their top assassin.
>>82606079
I've stood by Stark being right ever since "What If: Civil War" where they showed that if the heroes hadn't fallen in line then the USA would have just sent Sentinels after them.
That made me realize that there was no "winning" for Cap's side. The best you can hope for in a situation like that is to change the system from within, because you're not going to be able to shout down the law by just punching it.
And that was Tony's plan here as well.
>>82606030
I think Bendydick Cucumberpatch was a good choice.
>>82606127
Imagine Thor, who is the god-prince of a sovereign nation far advanced beyond anything on Earth, being told he had to abide by this treaty his people weren't even involved in drafting.
He'd laugh in their faces.
>>82606100
yeah. cap lied. hes human. he clearly learns from Zola and the shield file what Bucky did and he kept it from Tony for a while. Then when Tony asks Steve, steve lies and first says "i didnt know it was him". steves a liar.
>>82606181
I don't know, I would think Thor might respect the government of the world not wanting him to interfere without their permission.
At least until he gets shit faced at an Asgard party one night and decides he's had enough of North Korea.
>>82606138
I think so too, but we'll see.
>>82606200
Plausible deniability. Cap really didn't know for sure until he saw the tape. And he didn't want to know the answer so he never dug any deeper or asked Bucky directly.
>>82603790
>Where was you when the Based Russo's not only saved cape shit, but took the source material and made it better?
I was at the cinema, watching the movie for the third time on opening day
>>82604242
why didn't he just fly there and take down tha quinjet instead?
>>82606362
Vision isn't as fast as Iron Man.
>>82606362
*the
>>82606382
yeah, that really bothered me for some reason
we've only seen him float and when he flies, he does it off-screen (like hunting down the last ultron)
we don't know his actual top speed
>>82606127
>I've stood by Stark being right ever since "What If: Civil War" where they showed that if the heroes hadn't fallen in line then the USA would have just sent Sentinels after them.
That just mean Americans in the Marvel comics are evil and needed to be destroyed. The fact that the Sentinels are sent doesn't prove Cap wrong, it proves him right instead that he picked the moral side.
>>82604523
I like Rhodey and I think he should have died. It would have given the story a lot more weight.
>>82606452
And I am not joking about that; Marvel had blew up entire planets for less. Destroying America is not a big deal when it comes to saving Earth from being destroyed by Sentinels.
>>82604945
>Oh ok so the stinger actually takes place in the middle of Civil War. Weird. Why did they do that?
The fuck are you talking about? Both stingers take place after the events of the film. Mid-credits scene is obviously showing Cap in Wakanda with Bucky. End-credits scene is Parker after he returned to Queens following the fight (i.e. got hit by a guy named STEVE, his friend was a BIG guy, etc.)
>Why did Tony take time out of the Sokovia Accords business to track down Peter Parker? Why would he endanger this kid by putting him in a conflict between far more experienced fighters?
He wanted a secret weapon going into the battle, and he knew from two Youtube clips shown in the film that Spider-Man (1) had strong webs which could detain people non-violently, and (2) was ridiculously strong and durable.
>Why is all this even happening now? A draft similar to the Sokovia Accords should have been made directly after Avengers 1.
After the events of Avengers 1 there was no reason to believe that anything like it was ever going to happen again, besides which, they were all (well, except Thor) American nationals responding to a crisis situation on American soil while working in conjunction with an active government agency (SHIELD).
The bigger question is why it didn't happen immediately after the Sokovia incident, for which the Accords are named.
>>82606476
They wanted to end it with Tony still being on the good guys' side.
There's no way he'd ever forgive Cap if in addition to finding out Bucky had killed his parents, he lost pretty much his only close friend. Tony would go full supervillain.
>>82606488
It's different when you're blowing up planets of Skrulls versus countries that you call home.
>>82606515
plus Tony would really be all alone at the end, him helping Rhodey recuperate gives him something worthwhile to do.
I know there's Spidey too but still.
>>82606510
>The bigger question is why it didn't happen immediately after the Sokovia incident, for which the Accords are named.
What happened in between? Ant-Man? It was a direct response to AoU.
>>82606476
>I like Rhodey and I think he should have died. It would have given the story a lot more weight.
The writers completely disagree. There is no weight to killing him at all, it would just end up with everything stopping and everyone attending the funeral. The film would then end, just like BvS.
>>82606510
Speaking of Sokovia, does anyone else think that they made Zemo from there just in case they were planning to do a Thunderbolts movie? That way a main character wouldn't be a nazi.
>>82606476
>would have given the story a lot more weight.
Does anyone actually even care about the guy? He's not particularly relevant like, ever.
>>82606587
I like Rhodey and I like Cheadle, and the few bits of screentime he and Tony have together they have good chemistry. He's just underutilized.
>>82606580
They denazified Zemo because no one gives a fuck about nazis anymore.
>>82606606
>I like Rhodey and I like Cheadle, and the few bits of screentime he and Tony have together they have good chemistry. He's just underutilized.
And your decision to utilise him is to bury him six feet under?
The writers had a better idea; they gave him a disability, which parallels Tony's old chest wound. They are giving him room to be his own man now. This is far more useful than giving him a tombstone.
>>82606510
Avengers also happened on American soil and 4 out of the 6 avengers were American. BW is porbably a US citizen now, and Fury knows not to fuck with Thor.
Sokovia Accords after the avengers have been running around the world trying to stop Hydra.
>>82606615
Fair enough, though him not being part of hydra makes his line about having "practice" decoding things a little weird.
>>82606631
I'm this guy:
>>82606515
Never argued for killing off Rhodey. I was just answering a question.
I don't understand this whole zemo character
the avengers were thrown into chaos and brought to their knees thanks to the work of THIS RANDOM GUY!
was he supposed to be a good villain? was I supposed to get an impression of a highly skilled master manipulator pulling the strings? because I didn't get that at all
>>82606580
>Speaking of Sokovia, does anyone else think that they made Zemo from there just in case they were planning to do a Thunderbolts movie? That way a main character wouldn't be a nazi.
>>82606615
>They denazified Zemo because no one gives a fuck about nazis anymore.
The writers didn't want to deal with actual Nazis because once you go there, there is no turning back and it leads to sombre and seriousvile. This is exactly why they deliberately didn't let Steve Rogers liberate a WW2 concentration camp, even though he could have. Once you go that far there is no way to turn the train around.
>>82606654
>was he supposed to be a good villain? was I supposed to get an impression of a highly skilled master manipulator pulling the strings? because I didn't get that at all
That's Zemo. He can fight but he is smart enough to focus on WINNING instead. What is there that you don't get?
You are not impressed that Zemo succeed where an alien invasion had failed?
>>82606654
Zemo was so underutilized it was painful.
>>82603848
I am willing to bet that Snyder would either adapt it to make it exactly the same, or would make it even worse than the source material and would make it his second movie after The Captain.
>>82606681
>Zemo was so underutilized it was painful.
In what way? He did what he needed to do to win. You want him to monologue? You want him to challenge Steve to hand to hand combat and get the crap beaten out of him?
>>82606676
he was very forgettable
he never came across as a threat, he was just some guy. Like his plan never seemed like a brilliant scheme, literally anybody could have probably pulled off what he did. There was nothing extraordinary about it.
>>82606695
I want him to be more than one guy on his own that somehow managed to predict everything everyone would do despite no indication as to how or why he was that smart.
Sure, he could just "be smart" but I feel like that should have been better reinforced.
>took the source material and made it better
I liked the source material better, honestly.
>>82606681
>>82606654
Zemo was fantastic. An actual threatening villain who was able to succeed where all manner of monsters and aliens had failed.
He absolutely represented the villainous concepts driving the film (the desire to avenge and claim accountability) and was the perfect example of how supervillains aren't always cyborgs and homicidal beasts... sometimes they're just human.
Can't wait to see more of him.
>>82606734
It's not like he's just evil for evil's sake though. We know where he's coming from and what he's about.
>>82606727
Gotta agree here. Zemo didn't get a lot of play here and did most of his work in the shadows, so although he orchestrated pretty much the entire movie, he wasn't actually shown doing much of it. As a result, he was sort of pushed to the side.
Still, chances are he'll factor in as a villain later on. He did insinuate that his attempted suicide was nothing but a ploy to further his plots, at the end.
>>82606766
Cant wait to see what he looks like in a sock.
>>82606801
>He did insinuate that his attempted suicide was nothing but a ploy to further his plots, at the end.
You mean when Bilbo was taunting him over being a failure even though his plan to divide the Avengers worked out perfectly?
>>82606801
>He did insinuate that his attempted suicide was nothing but a ploy to further his plots, at the end.
I didnt get this feeling. It just seemed like he was proud that Tony and Steve were still "enemies" and half the avengers were enemies.
I'm just surprised they locked him in the bucky cell. I dont think he warranted that response.
>>82606734
>I want him to be more than one guy on his own that somehow managed to predict everything everyone would do despite no indication as to how or why he was that smart.
Then you didn't understood the plan. Zemo didn't predict everyone's actions, he merely had a backup plan for every eventuality. As an example he didn't need Tony to be at Siberia, it's just that Tony being there was more convenient and pushed the plan forward. This is why he only tried to kill himself after he succeeded. If things went differently then he would leave and use that video in a different place and time of his choosing.
>>82606801
>He did insinuate that his attempted suicide was nothing but a ploy to further his plots, at the end.
Physically impossible, as he would not have deleted his wife's voicemail unless he intended to die.
>>82606758
You have shit taste, honestly. The movie was really good and the cold was really bad. You're just being contrarian.
>>82606832
Yep, that scene there
>>82606885
Not exactly 'physically impossible', but true. There's an explanation though, maybe he figured that whether he succeeded in dying or ended up getting captured, he knew his phone would end up being confiscated and pored over by government investigators. Perhaps he didn't want them hearing his wife's final message, feeling it was only for his ears? We won't know for sure, at least until the next time he shows up.
>>82606885
Pretty much
>>82606534
You can still have an 'America', you just need to invade and reform it.
>>82606645
>not being part of hydra makes his line about having "practice" decoding things a little weird.
Because sending coded messages is a nazi trademark...
>>82606727
Well, I think an ordinary guy messing up a bunch of heroes by very human methods because they made him rightfully upset makes him a lot better villain than some blue alien shooting beams.
>>82606801
He was going to kill himself because he completed his goal and had nothing left to live for.
>>82607181
No but the way I interpreted it was that he had experience reading Hydra code.
>>82607267
I would imagine quite a few intelligence operations outside of Shield are familiar with Hydra's protocols. It's part of their job to identify and counter (or possibly work with and assist) Hydra, after all.
>>82607481
Maybe, but did they ever say Zemo had an intelligence operations background?
>>82607507
I believe so. I'd have to watch it again to be sure. Not sure about if that was so clear in the english language version, though.
>>82607586
I'm not sure they said it in the English version. I wouldn't have so many problems with Zemo if they had. I thought they just said he was in the city and drove his family out to the country to be safe and that was the end of his backstory.
>>82607675
>I'm not sure they said it in the English version.
They specifically told us he was from covert ops and intel gathering, when they identified his real name.
>>82607675
They said he was a Colonel and the head of Slovakia's black ops squad.
>>82604303
I was curious as to why the Vision couldn't just fly and catch Falcon himself.
Is he that fucking lazy he has to shoot death lazers?
>>82603790
That twist at the end legit made me and the whole theater go OOOHHH. It was awesome.
>>82607867
Yeah, I liked that it was set up so organically with Tony giving that conference in the beginning.
>>82607789
Couldn't leave his waifu.
>>82607789
He was... distracted.
Also, Falcon presumably flies faster.
>>82607732
>>82607756
My mistake, it's been a few days.
>>82607789
Because he didn't give a fuck >>82605404
>>82607756
>Slovakia's black ops squad
is any one a bit gay for black people now after seeing black panther, i want him to split me with his bbc
>>82606727
I thinks that's the cery thing that makes him impressive. Sure some other guy could pulled it off. But none ever tried. It was him the ine with the drive, smarts and resources to tear apart earth's mightiest heroes with entirely mundane methos. It's a scary thought what a simple man can accomplish with proper preparation and motivation.
>>82603848
>You could have given the Civil War comic to a mouse and he would have made it better
They did
>>82603790
I have to respectfully disagree. Because the film relied so heavily on the comic it is weighed down by the same unconvincing divisiveness of its source material forcing its characters to do things I can't at all imagine they would ever do. The final fight with Tony and Steve exemplifies this where Cap is just wailing on a clearly beaten Tony, A (for America) on full display on his forehead, clearly presenting Cap's stance as the symbol of American greatness. I'm sorry but no, just like in the comics this isn't Steve Rogers and it makes no sense here just as it didn't in Millar's version.
The film is another paint by numbers on Marvel's part sticking to the old formula. There are remnants of the same mindset that gave us Winter Soldier but the Russo's appear to have been curbed by producers wanting this to become Avengers 2.5 rather than a Captain America movie.
If anything this movie makes me worry even more for Infinity War. I was hoping that the Russos being added on would mean something different than just another team movie like we got in Avengers 1 and 2. But this movie doesn't at all give me that hope.
It is defiantly in the top 5 of Marvel movies, and none of the above is at all meant to say it is bad. Only that it was disappointing on my end because of the expectations Winter Solider built up.
>>82610993
>>82607789
vision just popped his first boner by holding wanda and was trying to compute what just happened to him
>>82606686
Snyder's version would at least have set up precedents of everyone involved being a total asshole making the plot actually flow rather than out of character.
We wouldn't be shocked at Reed and Stark making a clone Thor and throwing all their friends in the negative zone because his "super "realistic" everything dark, Batman would get raped" would have been present from the onset of the story and not just randomly thrown in after 50 years of previous story telling.
>>82604093
>Besides that, what Ross said about "misplacing" Thor or the Hulk is true; they're powerful fucking people, and someone should at least keep an eye on them
Banner I'll give you but Thor is a foreign dignitary from another planet and Earth is just his vacation home. Even if you put aside the concepts of "human being with free will and rights" and presume he's not eligible for "diplomatic immunity," How the fuck do you propose to keep tabs on that? How is doing so Steve's or Tony's job? What the fuck would Ross do if it was his job?
>>82605800
It's also important to keep in mind that while we the audience know Bucky was brainwashed, the other characters don't. Steve is the only one who knows for sure that Bucky is a victim. For every other character it's just "Steve said Bucky was brainwashed and wasn't in control of his actions." And if anyone would delude themselves into justifying Bucky's actions, it would be his best friend who's still clinging to the one thing left of his life in the past.
But yeah, the most important thing is that it was in character for Tony to behave that way. And it absolutely was.
>>82611215
I don't really know how else it could've played out. If the other heroes weren't involved, and the conflict would've just been Tony-Steve+Bucky, it wouldn't be "Civil War" but "Lovers' Quarrel".
Dropping Tony out, they could've had a smaller detective story with Cap trying to save Bucky and catch Zemo, while fending off Black Panther, but that would've just felt like a filler in the grander scheme of things.
These movies are all part of the same continuum, which is their strength, trying to split them like, "this is a Cap movie now, everybody else fuck off" would've felt forced after all that development. I like how they present Cap as the "core of avengers", what happens in his films has the biggest impact on the mythology (disbanding of SHIELD, splitting the team, etc), while the other films are more self-contained.
My biggest issue with the film is that the Russos are established TV-creators and it shows. CW was delivered like a big budget TV-movie rather than the blockbuster it tries to be. The camera work and pacing were a struggle at times.
The non-stop flow of intertwining visuals, audio and narrative tailored for a theatrical feature was what made Whedon's Avengers stand out for me. That's the treatment INFINITY WAR needs. The double-movie turning out like a marathon of a mini-series would be awful, no matter how good the script.
>>82605800
>I did love the twist though. I'm sure some people might have seen it coming but I sure as hell didn't.
It was brilliant. I was just fixated on the serum, "why do they keep showing those bags all the time", and completely dismissed the car and the people driving it as irrelevant. And then the bags were just a red herring all along. It saved the movie, really.
>>82611696
I guess I would have just preferred having an entirely different focus for the 3rd film. Civil War was shit. Everyone even partially interested in comics knows the book was utter trash. I can't accept that anyone at Marvel believes the story has any merit at all given how within three years everything it did in the comics was reversed. So why the fuck did they even bother with the storyline in the movies?
That decision to do Civil War is what leads into all the other problems the film has. They could have easily just done a flip of the Jason Bourne films with Steve hunting down Bucky and needing to do so alone because of his wanted status by world governments.
>>82603790
>Where was you when the Based Russo's not only saved cape shit, but took the source material and made it better? Isn't this how happy everyone was when Avengers 1 came out?
But the movie was so disjointed.
On the one hand it in part had the tone of The Winter Soldier but then it felt like an Avengers sequel. A solid completion of the story set up for Cap would have sufficed.
Was it enjoyable? Yes. But was it critically good? It felt quite like they overfilled the movie. And things came and went. The overall discussions on the ethics of what were being proposed were too quickly dealt with and thrown away on a story that was more about the Winter Soldier.
We have all these great little bits that put a smile on my face, like Ant Man on an arrow. But they kinda felt cheap and wasted over all because the battle we were being sold was not as grand as we expected. it was ten minutes of gathering extra people just to steal a quinjet. That's right. Ant Man flew all the way to Europe just to help them steal a quinjet.
There has been a lot of discussions on the movement away from origin stories. And it is fine. Black Panther was introduced fine. But then you have Spider-Man also in there. Black Panther drove the plot. Spider-Man did not. Sure it was a great cameo. But it did not add to the overall story.
So we ended up have so many different arcs in this movie and each act feeling too different from the last one. And what was it all for?
The Winter Soldier felt like it changed things. This didn't really do the same.
>>82611859
>within three years everything it did in the comics was reversed
That applies to everything comics ever do though.
>>82611934
Not to the point where the company dedicates an issue to celebrating in story the removal of something it worked so hard to make people want.
>>82605237
AWESOME!
So they literally have a super hogh tech maximum prison in the ocean built only for a few Avengers, only one of which has powers? Weirdest shit. Should have had a cameo by some villian in there
>>82611996
Well it was designed to be hold superhumans should it need to. Just because it's only holding one superhuman at the time doesn't mean it shouldn't still have the capacity to hold more.
Would have been cool if there was an Abomination cameo there though.
>>82611924
They gathered the team under the thought that they were going to fight the Soviet Sentai, to be fair
>>82611924
>The overall discussions on the ethics of what were being proposed were too quickly dealt with and thrown away on a story that was more about the Winter Soldier.
Neither sidelines the other. Rather, Bucky effectively embodies the whole problem. His character shows that the kind of situation that demands free reigns for the heroes isn't necessarily about beating up some really bad guy; it can mean saving a person who simply doesn't deserve what's coming for him. That's what being a hero is really about. Saving, not destroying. So not only did the movie complete the circle on the Winter Soldier's plotline, it did it through the CW story, which made it that much more beautiful.
But yeah, I do agree that most of the heroes, Spidey in particular, were barely involved.
>>82606079
>"Sign or else you're a criminal"
>genius, billionaire, playboy, philantropist, lots at stake
>wants to avoid bigger issues, knows that first they reach you with a pen, then they come point you a gun
>wants to keep his friends together
>understands how the world works, the need for oversight, and actually believes the accords can be discussed after the bureaucratic dust settles
Tony is right because he is not an anarchist.
>>82612132
But Cap is also right because a lot of the situations the Avengers deal with can't be beholden to a committee
Like, consider Cap signed the Accords, and they find out about the other Winter Soldiers. Is that something you want Russia to know about? Or any government? Would Russia even allow a team led by a guy named Captain America into the country?
>>82604868
>Mostly because of the fact that his homie is making out with a girl; that's the only reason he really needs
This. He's the guy who got his scrawny best friend a date back then. Just look at that smile.
>>82612226
>But Cap is also right because a lot of the situations the Avengers deal with can't be beholden to a committee
Of course they can. And the Avengers are not directly forbidden of taking immediate actions.
The accord prevents them from acting without a plan or considerations. That means, if the avengers blow up houses in the process, they would be backed up by the government, providing shelter, medical support, security, etc. Not just walking home after defeating the bad guy.
If the UN decides 5 Winter Soldiers are a pretty big deal, Russia would have to swallow the Avengers.
>>82612132
Tony is an idiot for not advocating that the Avengers have a say in the accords and that they are allowed to sit down and make deals about what is in the law.
Its just thrown at them saying "sign this, we did the best we could" at that's that.
>>82612104
Sure. I agree with what you are saying. But the plot did not convey that well enough. As such it feels apart.
>>82612315
>If the UN decides 5 Winter Soldiers are a pretty big deal, Russia would have to swallow the Avengers.
You have no idea how the UN works do you? Russia only has to say "fuck off" and that's the end of it. You need a unanimous vote by the security council to pass anything through the UN.
>>82612321
He clearly states that the accords were already settled.
He said once it gets out of the media, and after the first measurements take place, then it can be discussed.
But it needed to be signed, or else they'd be criminals or retired. That was the initial deal.
>>82612354
And even if the UN actually shut them out and decided something, Russia would still say fuck off and nothing would happen, because otherwise it would mean nuclear war.
>>82612354
I assumed emergency situations required immediate decisios by a selected UN group, and not full out votings and auditions about wheter or not they should save people.
Here's a higher quality version of that scene. DVD rip is already out somehow.
puu.sh SLASH oLqlo SLASH 1a906ea625 DOT webm
Somebody cut out the audio and make it a webm for 4chan.
>>82612375
So Cap and company are supposed to just trust a governing body that has no problem making rules for them without their consent or input? They are expecting to just believe that after the fact they will get their say?
No fuck that. That's some BS and would never fly for anyone that laws are being tailored to regulate. The immediate response on anyones part should be to throw it away and start again with their say.
![happiness2[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ZORXEIs.jpg "happiness2[1].jpg")
Post YFW Giant Man
>>82612414
>>82612354
Well, let's pretend the Avengers are the elite SWAT team or something like that.
How would that be dealt with in the real world?
>>82612433
Yeah, and that immediate group is made up of the five permanent members of which any "no" vote immediately nulls the resolution. Any of those five members, should they want, can just completely shut down all UN talks on a whim.
Starting to see why Cap has the right idea?
>>82612336
Maybe it remains a bit ambiguous, but I prefer that to having it all underlined through hamfisted dialogue. Cap sounds preachy enough as he is. Enough was said.
>>82612475
>>82612475
Give me back my Rodey
>>82612485
Depends entirely on the circumstances and media coverage.
Remember OBL? Not exactly a raid approved by the Pakistanian government but they could do fuck all because world press and the US supported the operation.
>>82612449
That's how democracy works, it trumps your individual beliefs.
The majority of countries voted for it, so you just deal with that initially. You can't change the laws, you can only vote against them, initially. And it was already approved.
>>82612507
But it doesn't feel like enough was said. The problem is a lot of the conflict could be solved with dialogue.
They needed to have deepened the conflict sometime to destroy this criticism.
>>82606654
I liked him. From the start, he realized his weaknesses (he knew he could never fight the Avengers), so he just used what he's good at (wasn't he like a Sokovia special ops or something and had decent infiltration skills) and let the Avengers do the actual fighting.
And in the end, he actually accomplished his goals, far more than Loki and Ultron and other super powered villain in the MCU.
>>82612558
Except this wasn't a case of democracy. This was unilateral oversight by outside powers attempting to take over an independent organization without the organizations approval or consent.
>>82612496
>Starting to see why Cap has the right idea?
No, because if any of those vote "no", then they can just as fine say "fuck russia" and do the mission. The government would have to talk the diplomacy after that.
Every action has consequences, and the avengers are signing an accord that shifts the blame to goverments instead of themselves as a private thing.
>>82606727
I don't know capeshit but I disagree. Out of all these cape movies, he's the one villain I'll remember a lot. He actually did things without having a staff or a horde of aliens or shit like that.
And that fucking smile/smirk or whatever. His whole thing tied really well with the theme of revenge.
>>82610993
nice.
>>82612625
>No, because if any of those vote "no", then they can just as fine say "fuck russia" and do the mission.
Um, that's exactly Cap's position dude. Why even bother with the accords if you're just going to allow the Avengers to do what they want and mop everything up after.
>>82612625
But who's to say Russia wouldn't be waiting for the Quintet with MiGs, and shoot the Avengers down for illegally violating their airspace with the intention to steal or destroy Russian property?
>>82610946
>It was him with the drive
>Zemo listening to his wife's last voicemail like it was some Eye of the Tiger pump music shit
I like this guy
>>82612606
A private organization residing in the US, under US laws. Almost all nations voted yes, it's goddamn approved.
Tony's decision was right in swallowing it first, then wanting to discuss it later, because really, there's no other option besides becoming a criminal the next day.
>>82612547
Well, Russians don't give a fuck about western media and they censor their own. They'd unload their military budget on the Avengers the moment they'd step across the border, never minding the collateral damage. If a few thousand civilians happened to die in the crossfire, then the papers next morning would just say they went for a government-sponsored vacation in Siberia and Putin would be re-elected.
>>82612675
No, Caps position is going wherever he believes he is doing good without warning anyone, and providing no means of fixing whatever consequences come up.
It's just anarchism.
>>82612510
>im the boss im the boss im the boss im the boss im the boss
i laughed
>>82612700
UN agreements have never trumped constitutional law. UN can say whatever they fucking want but the US congress (NOT a fucking Secretary of State) is what validates any kind of treaty.
Moment any Avenger puts it out in the media that the UN wants to curb their involvement without their consent the Accords are dead on arrival in the House and Senate.
>>82612704
Russians care about US relations when its a matter of their own security. If the US fully supports an action by the Avengers, Russia is going to have to either play ball or start a war. The later being an opinion they are not fully committed to despite their huff and puff.
>>82612742
>Caps position is going wherever he believes he is doing good without warning anyone,
Which is what you just fucking advocated by saying they should just ignore any veto vote and do it anyway.
>>82612804
>The later being an opinion they are not fully committed to despite their huff and puff.
They've always been too proud to admit they've fucked up. They'd eat nukes sooner than back off, if it came down to that.
>>82612843
Cold War disagrees with you there buddy.
To me the whole film shines a light on the dysfunction between Warner Brothers and DC.
I think a huge part of the success of the Marvel films is how they embrace the Comic Book Material. See picture.
While Warner brothers seems to be embarrassed by it. They try for Muh real world problems or change the characters in the films to a near unrecognisable character to their Comic Book counterparts. Case in Point: Jonah Hex and Superman. Sure they have cool moments ripped right out of the pages but without context or meaning. Just a "Wow this looks cool" approach.
The reason The Dark Knight was so good because Nolan did not follow the Warner Brothers Comic book Movie playbook and embraced to comics with many elements, plots characters that were true to its comic book counterpart.
Plus Jesus H Christ BVS was a gloomy Gus of a movie.
Marvel showed you can have real world type characters, intricate plots that are heavy but they embrace and love the comics while there seems to be a near hatred of the Comics at Warner Brothers
And most of all Marvel makes enjoyable pictures. I mean really who's wants a Superman with a supercomplex with a douchebag Kent's screwing him up
>>82612804
>Which is what you just fucking advocated by saying they should just ignore any veto vote and do it anyway.
That's exactly not what I said. There's a difference in doing whatever you want, and doing whatever you want dealing with the consequences after.
The whole point of the accords is that whatver action the Avengers take, the population would be accounted for, and the Avengers would receive the corresponding penalty if the UN deemed it irresponsible.
>NOT a fucking Secretary of State
Seems like the secretary of State is in charge in the MCU
Which brings this discussion down to speculation, since nobody knows how the MCU politics works.
>>82612870
No, the Marvel movies disregard and fundamentally change it's source material just as much as any DC movie. Civil War itself was literally nothing like it's comic counter part. Guardians of the Galaxy might as well have been totally original characters. Your opinion here is unfounded.
>>82612861
Yes, Russian leaders at their softest meant three minutes to midnight.
>>82603790
>everyone talking about how Cap is 100% in the right and beats the shit out of Tony
>make it sound like the Accords are the main divider of the team
>seems like it's going to be as retarded as Civil War was in the comics
>get to the movie>turns out the only reason they were split is because Zemo was absolutely brilliant
>final fight ends with all three beaten down, torn apart, and pyrrhic victories that only the most delusion Cap or Tonyfag would call a win
>all idiocy about what's legal was only with Clint and Widow, who no one loves in the MCU
>every other character was grade fucking A with great dialogue and more human response to the situation
I could not believe have good it was.
>>82612870
>The reason The Dark Knight was so good because Nolan did not follow the Warner Brothers Comic book Movie playbook and embraced to comics with many elements, plots characters that were true to its comic book counterpart.
Actually, the reason Nolan was successful was because his Batman was really brought to reality, instead of looking like it was shy of being a comic book movie, it really just wasn't.
What WB did with BvS and MoS was tone down the comic book elements, whilst Nolan just got rid of them and pretended Batman was a real dude in our real world.
Point is, you either embrace comics or just don't. Standing in the middle is awkward.
>>82603809
Doctor Strange, Iron Fist,all the DC movies
>>82604945
You're actually retarded. Go back to /tv/.
>>82612961
Yet we are all still here because even Khrushchev wasn't willing to drop a bomb.
Russians act tough, but only want a means to save face at home. Give them that and they will play ball.
>>82612917
yes you did. You said that the Avengers should be able to ignore a veto vote by the UN security. This is exactly the same thing as unilateral action because it is disregarding the legislation in place.
There's nothing preventing the UN prior the accords sitting down and examining any events the Avengers are involved in and requesting penalty or aid in the aftermath.
> since nobody knows how the MCU politics works.
Films clearly meant to mimic our world. Not reason to think their politics don't work like ours without examples showing such.
>>82612921
I think he means comic books in general when talking about source material.
>>82604945
>It's vague as fuck
half of them are criminals on the run now
>>82612921
Change material to roots then.
>>82612963
>Clint
>no one loves in the MCU
He's shining lately
>>82613129
>Yet we are all still here because even Khrushchev wasn't willing to drop a bomb.
Back then, things didn't go over the line and Krushchev was actually not batshit insane, which is a rarity among Russian leaders.
But we're talking about a scenario where present day UN jockeys send a group of western superheroes straight into the motherland. I don't see them playing much ball after that.
>>82613134
>>82613171
The Marvel movies are still just as wildly different from their comic book roots as any DC movie. Iron Man has at this point ceased to be Tony Stark in any capacity and is now just wholly Robert Downey Jr.
>>82612870
The problem is WB. Marvel were lucky enough to get bought by Disney, who more or less let them do what they want creatively. DC on the other hand, probably have barely any input on the movies. It's all handled by retarded WB execs and whatever director they choose.
>>82613309
You're not getting it, anon. He's saying that the movies juggle the comic book tone. He's not exactly saying that the movies are 1:1 to its source comic.
Tony should have been marked as wrong as soon as he advocated child soldiers.
Peter is only 15yrs old and to bring a child into a fight with super-powered people like Wanda and technological entities like Vision.
I'm honestly surprised no one on either Caps or Starks team brought this up during or after Spider-Man's appearance
>>82613382
There is no one consistent "comic book tone" anon. Comic books have a wide range of different tones and styles.
>>82603809
Aquaman, so long as Wan stays.
>>82613581
>tfw promised horrors of the deep
>tfw Affleck is slowly working his way up the ladder of execs
Wan is safe.
>>82613551
Super hero comic book tone. This movie gave what the viewers expected, a smorgasbord of heroes fighting each other, impossible feats of action, lighthearted tone where it needed be, then added some serious stuff. There's some crazy stuff here like Ant-Man going giant and BP, but they delivered it anyway no matter how ridiculous it seemed.
>>82613506
If they started complaining about each other's members it'd never stop
>Fuck Steve, you brought the unstable witch with you?
>And what about Vision, Tony? We still don't fully understand him,he has the power to wipe us all out!
>Speaking of that, Hawkeye? Really? He was chilling at home and you drag him into this with his damn arrows?
And so on
Plus nobody other than Tony really knew details about Spiderman, who could complain about his age?
And now that i think about Tony only knew for sure that he was after Cap, Falcon and Bucky, and Spidey could pretty much go toe-to-toe with all 3 of them, Wanda's presence was a surprise and nobody knew about Ant-man
>>82613659
There is no single superhero comic book tone anon. You have to have realized this just by reading superhero comics. Why are you trying to make this into such a broad generalization?
>>82604945
>Not only does it not accomplish anything
It accomplished being a good movie.
>>82613051
Even though Nolan grounded his series, they still had comic book characters dealing with comic book problems
Snyder starts in with the questions about the nature of vigilantism and what makes a man, and it falls flat because the answer to the question is of course vigilantism is ok because otherwise we wouldn't have a movie, and he goes portrays these characters as gods because it's still a superhero movie
>>82613551
Capes are inherently optimistic as a concept, that's what Marvel gets through
>>82613723
I agree that Spidey could and basically did take on all of Team Cap - save Wanda - but you can't dispute the fact that Tony put his faith in a 15yr old highschooler and threw him in a super battle.
>>82613732
I'm just getting what that anon meant. He didn't mean like a 1:1 adaptation of the comic book source, like that one anon replied. He means that it's still a movie with people with super powers and crazy shit that you don't normally see in other movies, and it's unashamed to show it as it is.
Maybe I'm not wording it right but I understand what that anon meant.
>>82613723
>>82613808
Spidey was literally the strongest super being in that fight. The only threat to him was Wanda and the fact that he's still inexperienced.
I agree about Tony, but Spidey being a kid is literally a part of his character.
>>82613849
How is that different from any other superhero movie?
one little thing that bothered me, more of a nitpick
>In my culture, death is not the end. it's more of a stepping off point. You reach out with both hands and Bast and Sekhmed, they lead you into the greater elsewhere. Forever.
so...heaven? why is he acting like the idea of an afterlife is specific to his culture? that's like 90% of cultures.
>>82603790
>but took the source material and made it better?
This was never going to be hard.
>>82604527
>They are not at fault for anything.
Sokovia and South Africa were 100% caused by current and former Avengers.
>>82613908
He didn't say it was different to any other superhero movie, but he did say it is different to how DC (and specifically Zack) is currently treating its super hero movies.
>>82613808
I know, just saying that when he was planning his recruitment it must've not looked that bad of a thing to do. When things got serious with Giant-man he did order him to stop fighting
>>82613916
Heaven is a religious concept, not a cultural concept
>>82613916
>why is he acting like the idea of an afterlife is specific to his culture?
They're introducing Wakanda as this mysterious, mystical, yet powerful nation. This interaction was used for just that reason.
>>82613230
I agree, which is why the Accords are fucking retarded when all it takes is a single vote of any of the five permanent members on the SC to axe any operation.
For those of you who actually READ Civil War, was the friendly fire accident with Rhodey an attempt to mirror the death of Goliath mid-fight?
>>82613994
It isn't though. Marvel movies try just as hard to be rooted in realism and tone down their characters just as much as DC movies. Civil War was more low key and realistic than Batman Vs Superman, which actually had far more fantastical elements in it. This whole point you're trying to make is unfounded
>>82605237
>>82605312
What are the chances that they'll meet the Guardians along the way?
>>82613916
Different cultures have different forms of afterlife. Even heaven sounds different to that. You don't reach out with your hands in heaven and no one is leading you to somewhere. Depending on who you'll ask, some Christians will say you will talk to God or an angel upon reaching heaven and be evaluated or something like that. BP is just saying that they believe someone will literally guide you around once you reach the afterlife. Widow says it's peaceful since it is a comforting thought that someone is there to hold you and guide you around when you arrive.
>>82614059
No, because Goliath's death wasn't friendly fire
>>82614059
Yes
>>82614110
That's why I said "mirror", not "replicate".
>>82614085
MCU has fantastical characters but a grounded theme. DC movies have fantastical characters with fantastical themes in the background. I don't remember the Batman and Superman comics feeling like some art house movie.
>>82614192
> art house movie.
>>82613916
we didn't even see wakanda's burying rituals, maybe that's what he mean, they don't even do funerals and only tie the corpses to some runnning animals and call it a day
>>82614059
>Black friend of more important hero gets laser blasted in the chest by a technological organism created in part by that more important hero
Yeah.
>>82612606
No, this is laws that already exist no longer ignoring the blatant law violations of a single group.
The Avengers were the ones acting unilaterally.
>>82612804
The Avengers already violate tons of laws, with or without the Accords. If the nations of the world weren't looking the other way they'd rightfully be in jail ages ago.
>>82603790
I want a buddy movie with these two.
Like some baddie captures Cap and it's up to Sam and Bucky to rescue him.
>>82614085
Dude, one director said "i'm not confortable with characters talking a lot in costume", the others didn't
It's true, both franchises are grounded in realistic, to whatever extent, settings, what the other anons are saying is that with it's last two movies WB/Snyder tried to "elevate" the superheroes, because apparently being fantastical is not enough. Snyder openly says that he sees Batman and Superman as something "transcendent"
BvS doesn't allow superheroes to fight because of what they think, they're fighting because "THEIR EXISTENCE SHAKE THE VERY UNDERSTANDING OF OUR REALITY! They don't obey God's law! Earth is for humans, down with *the* superman!" and shit like that, because being costumed special people isn't enough, they HAVE to be more, otherwise the director can't feel important about it
Like, imagine if at the end of Iron Man during the interview to Tony some fanatic came up and screamed "YOU MONSTER, with your technology you're turning yourself into a God! What can we puny humans do against you! Icarus rises, Icarus rises!"
>>82606510
>The bigger question is why it didn't happen immediately after the Sokovia incident
Do you have any idea how long it takes the government to DO anything?
>>82614606
nah
>Cap dressed in a suit
>Alright guys, I have a mission for you...would go myself but veteran dance is tonight and I have to make an appearance
>Steve's Angels
>>82614531
>If the nations of the world weren't looking the other way they'd rightfully be in jail ages ago.
And the world would have been destroyed shortly after, assuming they wouldn't have just busted out of jail to deal with shit.
Tony may have been the one who provided a means for Ultron to obtain a body, but he didn't create him. The flashback of "Peace in our time" was from the scepter's point of view and it was the hologram of the AI in the scepter that attacked J.A.R.V.I.S. Put that together with the fact that there were Ultron bodies in Strucker's facility where the scepter was found and sooner or later it would have happened without Stark.
Unless Hydra had already taken over the world via Project Insight while Captain America was in jail. Actually it might have still happened anyway just with Hydra trying to stop him instead of the Avengers stopping him.
>>82614925
>no Prohext Insight vs Ultron alternate universe
Actually who am I kidding, Ultron would nust hack the helicarriers and take control.
>>82614925
>Tony may have been the one who provided a means for Ultron to obtain a body, but he didn't create him.
Tony totally created Ultron, using the scepter.
>Put that together with the fact that there were Ultron bodies in Strucker's facility where the scepter was found and sooner or later it would have happened without Stark.
It absolutely was not inevitable.
Letting the Avengers act unilaterally in the name of saving lives is the same kind of thinking that resulted in Project Insight.
So was the black secretary from the start of the movie part of the plot? I had my suspicions especially since what she said made little sense
>>82615009
>Letting the Avengers act unilaterally in the name of saving lives is the same kind of thinking that resulted in Project Insight.
Except they're sincere and not using that as a front to kill all problematic people and control the world.
