Civil War Writers confirm Bucky is guilty
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>Q: Why was it necessary to put the winter soldier back on ice?
>A: Well because, I mean for one thing he is, give or take his intellectual capacity, 100% guilty. And to have Steve just running around getting free salads with him on some island, it’s a little too unpunished, in a way. This is not a guy who should be running around happily. He may not be 100% guilty, but he’s damn sure not 100% innocent.
>Q: Why does that not apply to Wanda Maximoff?
>A: Wanda…
>Q: You think she suffered enough?
>A: I don’t think she did anything near as bad […] None of those things were terribly interesting to us, the punishing of nice people, who already feel guilt. In the Bucky issue is…it was a bridge too far I think.
>>82601154
That's bullshit though.
>wanda does something of her own free will
>"not as bad"
>bucky is literally under mental compulsion
>"100% guilty"
Give me source or you're baiting.
>>82601350
Steve pls
>>82601154
>tfw he wasn't brainwashed and he genuinely defected to the Russians/HYDRA, and he's just lying
>>82601154
>bucky isn't a nice person
>bucky doesn't feel guilt
Ok
>>82601425
>http://www.craveonline.com/entertainment/985969-captain-america-civil-war-writers-b-movies-podcast#/slide/1
On the 5:30 mark
>Hawkeye kills people while under mind control
>no one gives a shit
>Bucky does it
>THAT NIGGAS GUILTY
>>82601154
Keep in mind that before Captain fascist knew Buck didn't kill those people he still mercilessly beat up innocent cops with his murder disk and when Buck threw a guy over that railing Cap had to save him and was like "Lol c'mon bro you said no killing"
Steve is a cunt
>>82601792
Wanda should be in jail for helping Ultron and nobody cares because her brother died. May as well let fucking Zemo on the Avengers
>>82601154
This begs the question; Can the mind be held accountable for what the body has done?
American law has said No. Sleepwalkers have gotten away with plenty of crimes.
I have no sources. I'm talking out my ass.
>>82601874
>Can the mind be held accountable for what the body has done?
Humans are organic machines. We operate using electrical impulses in the brain. History shows that the human mind can indeed be "hacked" and manipulated in ways the owner of said mind has no control over.
With that taken into account, it's entirely reasonable to consider one's actions while in a programmed state, to be free of culpability.
The guilt and blame ascribed are moral dilemmas that have no relevance.
>>82601838
And Tony should be in jail too or at least tried for some of the shit he has done.
Hell he did Ultron with Bruce then wanted to drop Sokovia to stop Ultron with people STILL on it until Cap told him no.
You know what, yeah, might as well let Zemo fucking join the Avengers.
>>82601990
>>82601838
Banner should also be in jail
>>82601154
>>82601990
Yeah, did everyone just FORGET that Ultron existed and that Stark (and probably Banner) should be in fucking jail?
The continuity is a joke.
>>82602043
And that Wanda set a pissed off Hulk on a city in AoU?
>>82601874
I guess if you take into account the shit with Killgrave then you can make a case for Bucky being innocent especially since in his case he wasn't influenced but outright controlled.
Let Foggy or Hogarth handle his case, I would say Matt but that fucker is unreliable when pussy is present.
>>82602076
Whedon made everyone magically forgive everyone.
Honestly Bucky is only getting shat on because the plot demands it, if Civil War had never happened then this shit would have been sidestepped in Cap 3 although the Bucky guilt would have stuck.
>>82601838
The comic Avengers has had a bunch of super-villains on the team, even a few murderous ones.
Black Knight, Wonder Man, Moon-dragon, even Hawkeye started out as a criminal. Hulk was an army-trashing monster when he was a founding member.
Can't put the Avengers in jail in case another world ending threat like Loki shows up
>>82602130
I know Marvel comics are shit but the movies could do better
>>82601350
Mind control isn't an excuse for murdering your friends dad who happens to be village chief so that your friend can ascend the hierarchy. Especially when you show 10 minutes later that you can easily break out of said "mind control"
*cough*cough*
>>82602130
Hawkeye was a petty criminal though he wasn't a class A murderer or anything like that.
Wanda and Pietro were literally terrorists, I mean when the Kooky Quarter happened it made a bunch of Marvel readers rage because they were Cap with three undeserving bad guys in their eyes.
Hulk quit after the third issue and he didn't come back until Bendis did Avengers Assemble, he rechnically has more history as a Defender than he did as an Avenger, the Avengers distrusted him big time.
>We as an informed audience know Bucky was exploited and brainwashed
>We as an audience watching Civil War and privy to more information than Tony had at the moment, know that Bucky spent his life right before the movie hiding out and staying low because he KNOWS how easy it is to brainwash him and he doesn't want people to do it again and make him kill people,
>100% Guilty, no remorse, deserving of punishment
DID THEY WATCH THEIR OWN FUCKING MOVIE?
>Bucky didn't kill himself, therefore everything that happened was completely his fault.
>We can't tell the difference between flashbacks that take place well before Winter Soldier and events that happen within the immediate timeline of the actual movie.
This is worse than Scott's ex-wife being such a fucking cunt when his crime was taking criminal action on behalf of others, not for his own profit.
>>82601874
> I know that I have a problem where I can lose control of my body and 99% of the time it involves murder
> Yet I don't turn myself over to the authorities and instead try to blend in with society and still manage to murder people on an annual basis
You know you're a threat to society and do nothing. Sounds guilty to me. If a drunk knowingly picks up the keys knowing he is impaired
>>82602163
Panther absolved him you cockfag and if you think T'challa is wrong then you can go suck more cocks.
>>82602209
Drunks don't know they are impared you mongoloid but they make the decision to drink when they are sober knowing they might get drunk so they are held accountable.
Bucky didn’t go to Hydra and asked them to brainwash him.
>>82602209
Comic book governments are incredibly corrupt. If I knew that someone could say a few words and make me kill someone, I wouldn't present myself on a silver platter to the government. The government in real life hires assassins, who knows what they do in the MCU.
>blaming Wanda
Fucking stupid.
The moment Crossbones got that virus out in the open, EVERYBODY in the entire area was at risk of dying.
Collateral damage should really be weighed against the potential loss of life if EVERYTHING went wrong.
Like, those gay-ass screens with the human casualties that were only like... 30, 200, whatever. I was chuckling when I saw those in the trailer. New York is invaded by an alien fleet and only 74 people died. Only 74.
>effectively being raped into committing murders
>not 100% innocent
what
>>82602253
She still let the Hulk loose on a populated city. That was 100% her doing, no mind control shit and she should be held accountable for it.
>>82602207
Russos are retarded, they say he is 100% guilty but then say he is not 100% guilty but not 100% innocent.
Which is it?
Honestly I would like to ask Mcfeely and Markus what they thought about this since they wrote the script.
>>82602239
I have a pretty good idea of when I'm drunk, and ehen I'm not
>>82602281
She isn't because Russos waifu her and she's treated like a kid.
>>82602253
The only thing that could be blamed on the Avengers was Ultron. Pinning the casualies of winter soldier and the chitauri invasion on them was stupid as fuck.
>>82602301
>Mcfeely and Markus what they thought about this since they wrote the script.
It's the writers on the podcast, not the Russos. I am blaming the writers for this already.
>>82602215
Talking about another series you dip
>>82602317
Are you drunk right now? Your typing sucks.
Eitherway you make the decision of being drunk unless someone spikes your drink and that shit would be a special case in court in a drink and driving case, not to mention they go after the person spiking your drink.
>>82601990
1)Wanda should stand trial for Sokovia events.
2)Tony should stand trial for Ultron (I do not feel him guilty, the whole genesis of Ultron has been too rapid, but he should stand trial ).
3) Cap should stand trial for the events Wakanda. he intervened arbitrarily and it's his fault if Crossbone has had time to detonated the bomb, Forcing Wanda to take an impossible decision.
>>82602360
Be more specific you prolapselicker
>>82602239
Pretty sure most people know that after 10 drinks that they shouldn't pick up the keys yet they still order another round. This obviously doesn't apply to everyone but it's not a defense for bad decisions is what I was getting at.
> your honor, I just went out drinking with my buds and had 17 beers by choice but I shouldn't be found guilty for killings that car full of people because I was drunk and had no control over my decision making
Bucky knew that as long as he remained out in the open that time and time again hydra and the like would get him to kill people and he did nothing
>>82602376
Ask Cap to stand trial he probably would
Also Widow should stand trial and so should Hawkeye, fuck, you can make a case for Thor and all the shit that happens because of him but who would fucking order Thor.
>>82602420
And Banner
>>82602400
It's still not the same, Bucky for all he knew everyone was out to get him, yes he should be contained and helped but no one wanted to do that and unfortunately Zemo got to him before anyone else did.
He also wasn't sound of mind.
And again you chose to drink.
>>82602426
Fuck, who wouldn't stand trial?
>>82601154
So basically they don't punish Wanda because muh waifu.
>>82602447
Rhodey
>>82602350
That's eve worse then.
I guess they want to drag Bucky through the ringer before he can be redeemed.
Honestly it's going to take a lot for Bucky and Tony to be OK.
Also in the comics the hero Bucky has wronged the most is Wolverine since he killed Logan's wife but since Wolverine has been brainwashed a lot and knows how rhat shit is he forgave him.
>>82602468
And he gets crippled, lol
>>82602301
Its the writers. Not the Russos. Joe even mentioned Bucky being the pure victim here.
>>82602439
Bucky knew that as long as he was free that he would murder people. I don't have anymore implies to make it easier to understand why he was, is, always will be guilty for his actions. His crime was not taking the necessary steps to prevent it
>>82601154
I'm sure that the cops he killed during the raid on his apartment is proof enough
>>82602439
You choose to be drunk which you know increases your chance to hurt others. No court let's you off the hook for making a choice you KNOW can hurt people. Bucky made his choice
>>82602209
Did you watch the movie? Bucky got caught and STILL he got compromised becaused government agencies are shit with identity checks and he got brainwashed again.
Zemo wasn't even a HYDRA operative.
>>82601154
>>82601350
Cap forgives Bucky specifically because he's NOT guilty. Any irl soldier has respect for enemy combatants. This fucking bullshit with "100% guilty" is typical leftwing faggotry "victors (re)write history" bullshit. Show the nigga some respect, ffs.
>>82602163
Mind control is called that for a reason. Look up actual mind control programs and read on how that shit works. A person who is mind controlled is not responsible for their actions.
>>82602209
You're a faggot sjw subhuman faggot.
Well, the Russos consider him a victim.
>Joe Russo: He goes on the most horrific emotional journey of anybody in the movie. It is very empathetic. It’s very difficult to watch that scene with Bucky and Tony’s parents, but we shot it violent because we want you to be horrified. We wanted you to feel what Tony was feeling in that moment. Also, Bucky can be considered the longest suffering POW. Cap has an equally emotional reason that he is trying to protect and preserve Bucky, which is the last shred of his humanity from the past, the last shred of his sense of self and his home. The character is a pure victim. Again, all these characters do complicated things and,hopefully, in the end, the sum result is that you walk out of the theater arguing with your friends and family about who was right.
>>82602510
Logically he should be committing suicide then.
>>82602420
Exactly Steve would accept immediately. He never denied his responsibilities, but this way, probably almost all would come out forgiven, because the trials would have also highlighted the extreme danger that the Avengers had thwarted. Maybe Tony and Wanda would have to suffer a bit 'of crap, but nothing great.
Tony would would end under control, however, leaving Steve free to act
Governments, first, had no interest in doing a trials. They know that the Avengers have avoided the apocalypse more than once
>>82602568
He knew he had a problem that hurt people and he did nothing to mitigate it.
That's his crime anon. Tell me how it isnt
>>82602510
Bullshit. He was living peacefully on his own until fuckers came after him allowing him to be brain washed again.
They sealed him up so they don't have to pay him until Avengers 3 when Dr. Strange can cure his mental demons. And also heal Rhodes.
>>82602590
Because he didn't know he could still be brainwashed. And if he's being brainwashed again that's still not his crime its someone elses. Guns don't kill people etc.
>>82602592
But he knew it would happen. Just like when you pick up a drink that you're gonna lose some motor skills. It's the choices he makes. It wasn't a 1 time thing
>>82602602
He literally said in the movie he knew the words would always work on him
>>82602616
How the fuck would he have known it would happen?
Well they put him back on ice because he was a liability, not because he was guilty. He's just another Hulk waiting to happen except instead of rampaging randomly, the enemy can use him with precision if they ever got him under control.
>>82602628
No he didn't. He said literally the opposite. That also doesn't change the fact that he can't be held responsible for other people's actions.
>>82602628
What was Bucky supposed to do? Hydra is everywhere and he's just supposed to surrender himself? To whom? Because the movie clearly pointed out that it was a bad idea.
The other conclusion would be to kill himself. And Tony would totally be in the right to kill him too.
>>82601350
Even with mind control he would still be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter
>>82602737
Nah cause that still requires them of being guilty of reckless or criminal behavior.
>>82602529
Bucky didn’t chose to get brainwashed, are you daft?
>>82602731
>And Tony would totally be in the right to kill him too.
Tony disagrees. The whole point is that Tony know it was wrong to want to kill him but wanted to do it anyway, much like Zemo knowing full well he was killing innocent people in his plan and murdering other people's families. Both Zemo and Tony couldn't help themselves but want to do the wrong thing.
>>82602895
I think that, given sufficient time to cool down and process, he would have eventually come to accept that he shouldn't kill Bucky. I don't know if he'd ever come to LIKE Bucky, or even tolerate the guy's immediate presence, but he'd at least probably settle for Bucky never coming within ten kilometers of his location.
>>82602982
I think what Tony really wants is to beat the ever loving shit out of Bucky, be in a position to kill him, and THEN choose the moral high ground and spare him.
>>82602842
Bucky did choose to do nothing about it. Are you daft?
Involuntary manslaughter is punishing negligence which leads to death.
>>82602760
Murdering people is pretty criminal behavior. You wouldn't make that great of a defense attorney for Bucky
>>82601154
They also said that Howard deserved to die like he did.
Sounds like bad wording in a live interview. They probably mean he feels guilty and knows he's a danger and so he shouldn't be going around happily after the movie or he'll look like a remorseless shithead. At least icing himself makes him look responsible.
>>82603009
What negligence? He lived alone doing nothing unsure if the brainwashing still worked. How is he at fault for being taken prisoner and brainwashed?
>>82603020
You're an idiot. Murdering people without free will to do otherwise isn't criminal. Bucky was a prisoner.
>>82602376
> and it's his fault if Crossbone has had time to detonated the bomb
You fucking what
>>82601838
In all fairness though, this is pretty comic accurate.
>>82602557
>Russos consider him a victim
>the writers consider that he's guilty
So, which one is it?
>>82603127
The writers are talking from the character and narrative perspective and why the ending had to be what it was. They're talking about what things need to happen in the story to make the point they want to convey to the audience. Bucky views himself as guilty because he remembers all his kills and can do nothing to stop it. He punished himself by going back on ice. The audience would have hated him if he didn't act out of remorse, it's the only thing that could make him sympathetic. Bucky hating himself makes the audience sympathize with him more.
>>82603047
He can't prove he lacked free will but I sure as fuck can prove he put himself in that situation. If he had handed himself over to the authorities then it would be their fault someone got to him but he didn't. He did nothing and he knew doing nothing would get people killed yet it did it time and time again. He is guilty of negligence.
He has to prove
1. He was mind controlled at the time of the crimes
2. Who mind controlled him
3. At what point did he regain control of his mind and choose to do nothing to prevent further mind control
No fucking criminal uses mind control as a legal excuse and gets away with it. Even those dumb Bitches with Manson got jail time.
You're retarded for not seeing the basic truth
>>82603222
They have proof dumbass. All of Hydra's files are free on the fucking internet.
>>82602029
>Banner should also be in jail
Who's gonna make him?
>>82603047
This wasn't his first mind control rodeo. He has a long history of these fits of "mind control"
Living alone in the middle of the city and going outside regularly to buy plumbs isn't in any way considered seclusion.
>>82603222
>He can't prove he lacked free will
All of SHIELD's files were released. Everyone knows.
>If he had handed himself over to the authorities then it would be their fault someone got to him but he didn't.
That makes no fucking sense. Regardless of how he got in custody they still let someone get to him.
>He did nothing and he knew doing nothing would get people killed yet it did it time and time again.
He didn't know. Stop saying he did.
>>82603260
Why should he live in seclusion exactly. There were no problems til cops busted down his door. He and everyone else was perfectly safe until then.
>>82603078
I love the Children's Crusade
my favorite retcon and it took some of the guilt off Wanda
>>82603222
>If he had handed himself over to the authorities then it would be their fault someone got to him but he didn't
Except he did surrender and get taken in by authorities.
And then Zemo got to him because the government is incompetent, thus proving why he was avoiding authorities in the first place. Because in his experience, everything is Hydra and turning himself in means just handing himself back over to the people that made him kill in the first place. And look at that, he was right.
Haven't seen the movie yet, but I read a spoiler thatBucky willingly goes to prison, because he knows how dangerous he is, even when acting against his will, and feels remorse for his actions.is that not what happens in the movie?
It seems like the perfect way out of this for the Russos, who obviously don't want to let Bucky completely off the hook even though, as this thread has amply established, their judgement of Bucky's guilt is pretty arbitrary.
>>82603290He voluntarily lets himself be frozen again until the based Wakandans can figure out how to deprogram him.
>>82603309
Good. Sounds like the Russos went in that direction for questionable reasons, but that seemed like a pretty agreeable compromise.
>>82603395
>>82603290
The people in the podcast are Markus and McFeely, the writers who work with the Russos.
>>82602253
How many people would have died if Wanda had done nothing and Crossbones had blown himself up on the ground in the middle of a crowded market?
>>82603287
That was this one time and therefore it was uncle Sams fault they let someone get to him. Does not justify not turning himself in sooner. Now for the other hundreds of corpses in his closet
>>82602400
Bucky and Cap could have made a clean getaway in Germany without endangering the police or civilians if Bucky hadn't stood around silently gazing at Cap while they closed in on his position.
>>82603274
> blew up 2 helicarries
> No problems
Uhhhh, you letting him off the hook for that too?
>>82603442
Cap did that.
>>82603287
Proving the government is incompetent doesn't absolve you of your crimes.
I can prove over 1000 people were murdered while in prison due to the incompetent government but that doesn't give me a get out of jail free pass. You can use " what if it fails" as an excuse. The incompetent people get fired as punishment. You're still a murderer Bucky
>>82603430
Nobody died by his hands during the period of time he was hiding. The "other hundreds of corpses" only ever occurred when he was in custody being controlled by somebody else. The Soviets. Shield/Hydra. To him, the authorities are the people that make him kill. Who would you turn yourself into in that case, knowing Hydra agents are everywhere? He can trust himself because he's not a murderer on his own, but he can't trust the people in control of him.
>turn self in
>headline next day WINTER SOLDIER APPREHENDED
>gets snatched up by hydra agent a la zemo next day
Do you not get why he didn't?
>>82601154
>I don’t think she did anything near as bad
>Worked with HYDRA
>Manipulated Stark into creating Ultron
>Teamed up with Ultron
>Forced the Avengers to see visions of their greatest fears
>Made the Hulk go savage, and turned him toward a populated area.
Did they mean "anything as bad in this movie"? Because Jesus.
>>82603261
It made total fucking sense. When you hand yourself over to the authorities, it's now their responsibility to take care of you and when they fuck up someone gets punished. Bucky wanted to stay free and have nobody punished for all the people he murdered.
> He didn't know
Watch the fucking movie sometime dumbass. He says he knows in plain english. It's the entire reason he is hiding is because he knows! The last line he gives is as long as I KNOW hydra can control me then nobody is safe.
He straight to jail anon, do not pass go
>>82601154
I don't think Bulky is 100% guilty but he should be put back on ice until they can do something about Hydra's mind control(make it all gone). Anyways, how come can he said Wanda has no guilt? She's a massive bitch and the fucking reason Manlet went full Ultron, you could even say she's a real bad guy behind everything here.
>>82603503
>When you hand yourself over to the authorities, it's now their responsibility to take care of you and when they fuck up someone gets punished
That's still the deal when they're arrested forcibly dumbass.
>Watch the fucking movie sometime dumbass.
You watch the movie. Immediately after waking up with his arm in a vice he says he didn't know that the Hydra shit was still in his brain.
>>82601154
>He is 100% guilty
>He may not be 100% guilty
This seems confused.
>>82601154
wanda's actions in ultron LITERALLY resulted in a hundred times more deaths than bucky and she did it of her own free will
>>82601154
CONFIRMED
SHE DID LITERALLY NOTHING WRONG
>>82603594
Good thing jail doesn't discriminate against criminals.they both get a cozy cell
>>82603700
And a cozy shock collar to keep her neck warm.
>>82602301
It's people speaking off the cuff, unscripted. Basically the second bit was backpedaling from the initial 100% guilty.
And it might have some point, though I'm hesitant to believe it personally. Bucky did manage to fight the control over himself at several points, usually because the longer he was unfrozen the more of his memories reasserted themselves. If only he'd fought harder maybe he could have broken free sooner, right?
Maybe but I don't really like it. He's most certainly a victim. He was broken to the point that any capacity to fight or resist was fractured and erratic.
>>82602537
> Any irl soldier has respect for enemy combatants
Irl soldier here. I don't know where you're getting your information but referring to them assand niggersandtowel head motherfuckerswhile giving followers of Islam ham from MREs isn't very respectful. And that's just the tame PG stuff. The things people do to other people when they think they're on the side of right is disgusting.
>>82602281
She and her brother were nearly killed by Stark weapons as kids, stuck in a crater with their dead parents and a bomb that could have exploded at any time.
Hydra took them and tried to indoctrinate them into weapons. They didn't just give them powers and let them go, right? Surely they tried to make sure the twins would obey. That didn't play out too well for Hydra, though. Then they fell in with a bad robot who convinced them that destroying the Avengers was indeed for the best and they could build a new world. When they learned that that better world was going to be built over the graves of every living thing on the planet they fought back.
There's a deleted part of Age of Ultron where the twins are helping the people of Sokovia before a kid tells them that the "metal man" wants to meet them in a factory. They go there thinking they're about to meet Iron Man, ready to fight, but discover Ultron instead. They always wanted to help and gaining powers was always their secret means to an end. They were never intending to be loyal to Hydra, but they shared the belief that Tony and the Avengers were evils to be resisted and destroyed. They already had this view and their time with Hydra, while it didn't make them slaves, certainly must have reinforced their anti-Avenger beliefs.
Given everything Tony has done it's hard to argue with their view that he and anything he created was evil. Tony unwittingly created or otherwise helped the scheme of a villain in ever appearance of the MCU. The fact that Ultron ended up a total monster surely didn't help that.
I'm honestly surprised she tolerated Tony enough that she remained on the fence about the Accords. There's a point in AOU where he saves her from an Ultron drone so apparently she's tried to reevaluate her views on him. Hard to imagine at this point she hasn't gone back to hating him.
>>82603705
It's funny cause I don't think she does verbal spells
>>82603958
It's either a standard power suppression collar, seen mostly around X-Men, or it's a shock collar. It's not about stopping her from talking, it's about stunning her if she tries anything.
>>82601154
That answer makes less sense than "I'm a liability as long as I can be controlled by a secret password." Why give a shittier answer to what the movie provides?
>>82602350
Didn't T'Challa say Bucky was a victim at the end though?
>>82602568
He wanted to but the only reason he didn't was because Steve believed in him.
>>82603038
That's what I feel like, given they were the ones who put the whole "Bucky was a victim like my dead dad" line in the movie and their previous interviews indicated the same thing. I think the point they were . The stuff about Wanda is messed up though. It's morally weird to say she's more innocent than Bucky because she didn't personally go up and shoot up the civilians of South Africa the way Bucky did, when most people would consider "guilty in mind, innocent in body" a lot worse than "innocent in mind, guilty in body". After all HYDRA is the former.
>>82601154
>Bucky would've killed dozens of cops left and right if it wasn't for Steve holding him back and saving said cops
>he himself admits he is dangerous at the end of the movie
If Bucky is in Wakanda. Does this mean that he'll be in the Black Panther movie? Hopefully they'll cure him, and he fights along side BP to defend against Klaw (Hydra agent?). He should dawn the mantle "White Wolf" and be like BP's white BFF. Seeing how Capt is probably going to forget Bucky exists by the next movie.
>>82601154
Basically the opposite of Bendis's philosophy of shitting on characters.
Also, Bucky being unfrozen once he is cured would enable him to move on...until then he can't do that as the cloud of his brainwashing hangs over him.
>>82601154
>Bucky brainwashed into killing against his will
>100% guilty! Can't have him gallivanting around!
>Stark creates a robot that kills hundreds and almost causes armageddon
>Quips and drives off in his Audi
Marvel does it again!!!
>>82604547
Probably. It's two years until that happens so it'll be a convenient explanation for what he's (not) doing during that time, and it also makes it feel like his decision has impact, even if the rest of Team Cap also don't show up in any of the movies in-between.
>>82603958
He gets a pass because he's siding with the Accords.
>>82602459
After what Bendis did to her this is a relief.
>>82604547
White Wolf would be a pretty fucking badass nickname for him given his whole winter background and the fact that yeah, he's pale as fuck, but I'd prefer it if Hunter showed up for real. Maybe the plot of the movie centers around them finding out Bucky is there and either trying to retrieve him or the vibranium using Bucky's presence as a pretense. First two acts revolve around protecting Bucky, third ends with him finally waking and getting decked out with a new arm and hero suit.
>>82604547
According to wikipedia, Stan has a nine-movie contract, not including the first two Caps, so they're gonna have to pepper him a bit of everywhere to get done with it before his retirement days.
>>82603286
Biggest danger is if in Infinity War she overdoses on Chthon's Extra Strength Magic Moon Juice to fight Thanos.
>>82602459
Glad we are all on the same page.
>>82604554
How would they cure him? Could be worse. Only person they know who can use powers to get in someone's head is Wanda, but that surely wouldn't end pretty. No offense to her but she's more of a destabilizing element.
>>82604665
Dr. Strange.
>>82604665
Tony's BARF machine. The writers even said that would've been able to work on him.
>>82603958
Well, logically for her there is no need to as unlike Strange she does not need to summon deities.
Wanda fucked up a no win scenario. Not really comparable.
Bucky was mind controlled tho so...
>tfw no Trial of Bucky movie
>>82604674
How would a tour of his subconscious help undo decades of mental conditioning and outright torture? At most putting him in the machine would show Tony how the guy was just a victim too, but I don't think the writers were getting that themselves.
>>82604669
>trusting magic
"Well I've managed to fix your friend's mental distress, Captain Rogers. Yes, his brain is now a fluffy white rabbit. I'll send you my bill."
>>82604748
Walking him through his brainwashing might help assuage his guilt and possibly undo the conditioning HYDRA placed on him.
>>82604748
Strange could just make him forget everything.
>>82603078
I fucking hate Wanda
>>82604785
Bendis pls.
>>82604583
the infinity gem is what made the robot crazy, not stark.
>>82604665
I think it would be very hard to persuade her to do it.
>>82604639
>Stan has a nine-movie contract, not including the first two Caps
Seriously? They're not counted in it?
If anything Bucky should be held in a mental ward and have doctors try to rehabilitate him, he's by all accounts criminally insane.
>>82604830
Nah, he knows right and wrong.
>>82604771
I don't know, wiping Bucky's mind was a constant part of his being a Hydra slave in the first place. Thematically it's not a happy solution.
>>82604768
That might just reinforce it by acting out how it was done to him. Rather than understanding it it might just restore the control.
Vision with the Mind Gem, if he could get it to work for him, wouldn't be a bad solution but the Mind Gem has a nasty track record. Gave the twins powers, at least, but fucked Tony up and gave the world Ultron.
>>82603875
Fuck off waifufag.
>>82604821
She's Team Cap so I don't know why not. Still most of her power applications since AOU has been physical manipulation. She didn't do any mind tricks in Civil War.
>>82604840
He didn't when he was under control, he behaved simply as a battle machine and is still quite unstable.
>>82604861
Fuck you, Joss, you're just bitter nobody liked the farm scene.
>>82604830
kinda
> lawyer: Well you see your honor, my client claims " mind control" as his defense which leaves him 100% not guilty
> Judge: Hmmmm, after going over his records to help me in my decision making ive noticed that he has claimed mind control for the past 57 murder trials and each time he has been let free, he seems to just murder again under this " mind control". I also notice that we have never been able to find any of the people he's claims put him in said mind control state
> Judge: can you tell me how it would be in the peoples best interest to just let him go free again without any checks put in place to track him or his behavior?
nuthouse is the best thing that could happen to him
>>82604826
The way he phrased it is a bit confusing, could be he has nine in total and not nine in addition to those. Anyway, still "a few" appearances more...
http://www.newsarama.com/20568-captain-america-the-winter-soldier-s-sebastian-stan-his-9-picture-deal.html
>in the comics Bucky's love interest Black Widow was what kept him from killing himself due to the horror of his actions, but in the MCU it's Cap according to Sebastian Stan
Anyway I think Bucky forgetting everything entirely would be a copout, since his last two years suggest he was slowly learning to live with the guilt over the things he did knowing that he had Cap to support him.
>>82601154
>fell off a cliff
>lost his arm
>kidnapped, tortured and brainwashed by his enemies
>put in cryo for a total of 40+ years
>the few times he was awakened he had electricity shot through his brain for a couple hours, then sent off to murder people, some of them former friends
>get sent to kill his best friend and finally manage to break the mind control
>spends the next couple years living in a shitty apartment hiding from his one still living friend
>get framed for some terrorist attack he for once didn't commit
>get arrest for it, then hypnotized AGAIN
>voluntarily decides to put himself back in cryo because he can't trust his own mind
>it’s a little too unpunished
What.
>>82604903
He has a 9 picture contract, meaning he has 6 left.
>>82604669
> Help Wanda with CM and spiritual stuff.
> Help Rhodey with leg problem.
> Help Vision with mind gem problem.
> Help Bucky with brainwashy problems.
>>82604730
She got Kobyashi Maru'd.
>>82604939
> Help Wanda
No
>>82604730
She could've moved it diagonally into the air away from that building. The area they were in was a low roof bazaar. At most a few people might've gotten hit by raining debris.
>>82604958
Why?
>>82604903
Sounds to me like the usual nine-in-total thing.
>I have to tell you, when I was younger and when I was in acting school, I was the guy saying, “Oh, I want more lines!” But now, you know, I find it more interesting as a viewer to watch “the other guy,” the guy reacting. Dialogue is important. It’s communication; it’s the first way we reach each other. But these days, I find it more interesting to watch the guy who’s listening to the guy talk.
Kek, when you consider some of the shit he used to have to say.
>>82604939
I was pointing out how busy Strange would end up being if he tried to fix every problem.
>>82604971
blasts dont do less just because theyre in the air
>>82604971
Debris, anon.
>>82604974
Because she isn't his waifu. If you want to help her then you waifu her and therefore are automatically bad.
At least I think that's the 4chan protocol on such matters.
>>82605004
>At most a few people might've gotten hit by raining debris.
I'm aware.
>>82605015
>a few
Look at that explosion.
Debris could have hurt and potentially kill more than 16 people.
>>82604730
she should have shielded cap with her powers
there problem solved
>>82604997
isnt that why his house is a sort of nexus existing between all points of time and several realities?
A shame Rhodey didn't look at his robo-legs and say...
"Next time, baby..."
>>82605023
he doesnt that that shrapnel traveling just under sub sonic speeds can kill people
>>82604971
Honestly she seemed to have extreme problems containing the explosion. This when later in the film she managed to subdue VISION through several floors.
Crossbones wasn't using a simple grenade. A grenade wouldn't have done that much damage to the building. The grenade he used on Wanda didn't even blow up the truck, just knocked her out the door (albeit after she used those dudes as human shields). That device, if it had exploded, would have taken out Crossbones, Cap, and most of the crowd. It was obviously a "fuck this piece of the planet" weapon designed for massive damage which he was holding back just to suicide bomb Steve.
The real answer is they have to put Bucky on ice so he can be the new captain America when Thanos kills Steve.
>>82604974
She deserve nothing but death
>>82605065
Why do you hate her so much Bendis?
>>82605060
He's been confirmed for Infinity War so he's going to come out before then.
>>82605076
Black Panther ending, probably.
>>82605060
>implying they won't make Sam the new Cap
>>82605076
Man thinking of Marvel Super Heroes with Bucky in it is super weird. When are they gonna stop dicking around and give us proper MVC4?
>Bucky kills hundreds of people against his will under HYDRA's mind control
>GUILTY AS FUCK
>Wanda helps Ultron kill the Avengers
>Wanda accidentally kills a bunch of people in Laos
>Totally cool.
FEMINISM
>>82605056
Alot of that is to do with her emotional state and things like fear weakening her powers.
When she took on Vision she was protecting Hawkeye, so she was very focused.
You see that with the guard; she grabs him then calls out to Sam because she is scared of killing him.
>>82602207
>>Bucky didn't kill himself, therefore everything that happened was completely his fault.
Why doesn't Tony just kill himself? Dude was an arms trader, Bucky would have to start breaking into sports stadiums and gas everyone present to get a shot at Tony's body count.
>>82602244
>who knows what they do in the MCU.
Attempted mass-murder of US Americans by means of flying purple robots?
>>82605140
>WAIFUISM
Fixed.
>>82601154
>wanda didn't do anything
>set hulk upon a african city
I guess niggers really don't count, huh marvel?
>>82605140
I think what they meant was that audiences had just seen Bucky murder Tony's parents so they could not sweep it under the carpet and have Buck and Steve ride into the sunset.
>>82605100
GONNA TAKE YOU FOR A RIDE!
>>82605190
WANDA: "What about the niggers?"
STEVE: "Get them out...dead."
Ffs Marvel that's going too far.
>>82605190
HYDRA is the one who experimented on her, and they were once nazis.
>>82601154
>muh Wanda did nothing wrong
I want waifufaggots to leave.
Bitch literally unleashed Hulk in a city full of civilians and she doesn't even have the excuse of being brainwashed.
>>82605190
They blame that on Ultronso Tony's fault again
Meanwhile, Black Widow is a known assassin who's known to not be under any hypnotic compulsion. She's also still in the business of murdering people.
But here's everybody's mad about the dude who got brainwashed as a kid and who actually quit murdering when he got the chance.
>''No more apes.''
Jesus christ Marvel, this is worse than Bendis.
>>82605236
Those waifufags are CW's and IW's writers anon.
Just give up.
>>82605242
>>82605140
>Black Widow killed dozens of people in her past and everyone's ok with it
>Scarlet Witch made Hulk go crazy in a populated city and everyone forgets about it
>meanwhile the dude who was literally tortured and brainwashed for 70 years is 100% guilty of the things he did
Maybe /pol/ was right after all.
>>82605144
She was trying to protect Cap from the explosive, too. And not wanting to hurt the guard would be an abundance of caution, not an actual weakening of her powers, though she has no problem tossing dudes around. Her working with Sam was more to show them being a team and relying on each other for combo moves.
It would make more sense, I think, to say that Vision maybe wasn't pushing back against Wanda for fear that it would hurt her, since she was obviously struggling against him as-is. Or maybe the fact that her powers are from the Mind Gem too he's weak against her abilities. The Gems have been shown to have trouble defending against each other's power, after all. The Mind Gem in the staff was used to breach the shield generated by the Space Gem.
>>82605242
B-but she can't have babies. She's been punished. Don't you feel sorry for her! Literally worse than Hulk
>>82605308
BW started working for SHIELD though.
>>82604771
captain america: one more day
>>82605308
This
>>82605323
They made her infertile because she would end up pregnant every 9 months otherwise.
>>82605308
Yeah but Bucky hurt box office draw Tony's feels.
>>82605149
This, TBF. Markus and McFeely were biased in favor of Wanda because they find her cute.
>>82605308
Bucky wasnt brainwashed 24/7 though
The problem is that Hollywood Liberals view soldiers the same way that the Victorians viewed 'loose' women.
Bucky and his Mind Control problem is pretty blatantly a metaphor for PTSD (Caused by an enemy in a horrific situation, causes him to lash out at those around him, only other soldiers can understand what he's going through, finds it impossible to be reintegrated back into normal society, ect, ect)
And his being a solider is the 'sin' that caused it. No sympathy because he chose that life style and its just a danger of his life choices. Its shown as something that can only go one way (Becoming a soldier/Becoming a 'fallen' woman) and anything that happens to do with it after that is their own fault (Getting Traumtaized/Being raped), of course there's no cure either, its just who he is now, tarred forever by being a murderer/slut and the only way to solve the problem isn't help, its to be quarantined (Which is, in some ways a punishment really, not that they'd ever admit it)
Imagine the same argument but with Black Widow and her assassin work or Bruce Banner and the shit the Hulk wrecks, the first already happened with the whole 'I'm a monster' shit in Age of Ultron.
But because Bucky was a soldier, its a-okay, because we all know, a slattern can never again be pure and a soldier can never again be a normal citizen, right Hollywood?
>>82605439
Rambo was executed in the novel. Fucking Stallone ruined a good story with his daddy issues.
>>82605409
Yeah, he was only brainwashed when he was sent on assassination missions.
Rest of the time he was allowed to have a good ol' time in the cryogenic chamber, the lucky dog.
>>82605396
I think both Bucky and Wanda need special extra-strong cuddles.
>>82605493
Fuck Vision tho.
>>82601154
>He haz to pay a price...
gets to take a long nap while everybody else fixes his shit.
>>82603844
Also irl soldier here. In ODS we had respect for the Iraqis, my CO was telling me about how he he was talking to an Iraqi NCO who said that he was going to go to the US before Sadam invaded Kuwait. FF 7 years later and he meets the same Iraqi at his local firing range and they hit it off.
tl;dr I got no love for fucking fundamentalist cowards who hide behind their families and women and children. But another man in uniform more often than not has my respect.
>>82605147
>US Americans
Huh?
>>82601154
>muh waifu
Goddamn it.
>>82605476
>daddy issues.
What
>>82605804
>>82603844 me
I'm glad things changed or maybe it was just my unit that was fucked up, added onto the time we were over there in Afghanistan (late 02) but it really brought out the worst in our guys.
>>82601824
Those cops went in there to shoot him, anon. They had orders to kill.
Bucky would have been 100% justified in butchering his way out of there. They're special forces. They went in there with the intent to use lethal force, expecting lethal force in return. The mere fact that he wasn't snapping necks left and right is almost saintly.
Would you fault Jason Bourne for beating the fuck out of a bunch of special forces guys sent to kill him? You'd likely excuse him offing them all. Shit, this exact thing happens in Leon, and we root for Leon.
>>82601425
>>82601154
It's 100% a Disney audience issue.
We saw Bucky kill the mommy of the most popular character in the MCU, Wanda just indirectly killed some black people we never even saw. It's a little bit racist.
>>82601154
I wonder if this means we'll never get Bucky Cap. If they really consider him guilty I kind of doubt they'll ever let him wield the shield.
They might skip straight to Falcon
>>82609793
But Wanda did it to save a fuckload more people.
Bucky was just a hitman, he killed because HYDRA wanted those targets dead.
>>82609936
It means he has to redeem himself, and he might do so by taking the Shield when Cap dies in Infinity War 2.
They put him in ice, because that's the most convenient way to leave him in the background for a few movies without having to come up with an explanation for why Interpol's most wanted hasn't been caught for years, even though it took 15 minutes to find him the first time.Simple as that.
>>82605198
Yeah they worded it badly but I think their gist is that Bucky needs to suffer as penance on narrative level rather than a moral level.
>>82602529
Yes, he clearly chose to be captured by Nazis, brutally tortured, mindraped, have all his memories and personality stripped away from him, frozen for years at a time, and be sold off like a slave to the highest bidder, all while arguably being the world's longest-held POW.
How dare he.
>>82609959
How come Hawkeye never needed to redeem himself for all the shit he did when he was mindcontrolled by Loki?
>>82603875
My god this is one of the dumbest arguments ever if you're trying to deflect SW's accountability onto Tony.
You say that because of trauma indirectly caused by Tony and being in league with an evil robot it absolves her of the guilt of 1) Having manipulated Tony into creating Ultron in the first place, 2) Causing the Hulk to rampage?
That means by that logic Tony is also automatically innocent of having created Ultron in the first place, even more so because unlike SW he never INTENDED to do harm.
Naturally both fucking arguments are false.
While Tony isn't at fault 100% for Ultron he's still at fault because regardless of intentions and accidents he still created him.
And same goes for Wanda. Just because Tony is a big ole meanie and Wanda is just a little girl who can make sad faces doesn't change the fact that trauma or not, with intents of causing harm she pushed Tony into making Ultron and then with thoughts of only revenge caused the Hulk to rampage and she's just as culpable as he is if not more.
I don't blame her for the actual incident that kicked off the plot with the bomb, that was just unfortunate but hand waving all her involvement with Ultron while Tony as usual gets blamed for absolutely fucking everything is pure BS.
>>82604748
I think it would be more about therapy than outright fixing everything.
>>82609936
I actually wound't mind that. I love Bucky as Cap in the comics, but he's not quite stable enough yet to handle it in the movies. He'd need at least a movie or to to develop both narratively and emotionally, but that probably won't happen before Infinity War, which has too big of a cast to give anyone but the leads real arcs.
>>82611349
He's an Avenger, he has already fought enemies for a long time now.
Not Bucky.
>>82605476
He died in the original cut, its on youtube, the studio didn't want him to die.
>>82612031
Bucky was a Howling Commando who basically died for Cap's sake.
>>82612031
He was a howling commando, he was fighting supervillains before Clint was even a gleam in his daddy'sHawkeye
>>82612032
cool, I didn't know that
>>82602459
>even the writers waifu her
It's never too late anons.
>>82604547
I hope T'Challa fashions Bucky some cool high-tech armor the next time he appears. He's already halfway-there lookswise but Winter Soldier's costume was a little too leatherdaddy and Civil War's looked either cheap or fattening.
>>82612689
>Civil War's looked either cheap or fattening
That was the look they were going for.
Thrown together, not really a suit.
>>82609936
It's not even a guilt thing, it's just he's got PTSD. I don't think he even wants to be exposed to a life of violence anymore, regardless of what he fights for.
>>82613102
He sounded so depressed when he said "It always ends in a fight..."
He just wants a quiet life.
>>82613152
He just wanted some fucking plums...
>>82609793
Wanda didn't mean what she did. She tried to contain the blast but it was too much so she tried to move it away from the crowd. We saw how shocked and horrified she was when she saw that the explosion had wrecked part of the building.
>>82613152
What a beautiful Bucharest! There must be no place as pretty as this run-down Eastern European shithole. Feels like a picnic.
*chew**chew*
Maybe they should look up the concept of mens rea. Bucky wasn't mentally culpable. From a real life legal standpoint he's innocent.
>>82613387
Bucky didn't mean it either. He was literally tortured and brainwashed into becoming a killbot. His sense of agency was completely absent.
>>82611595
>That means by that logic Tony is also automatically innocent of having created Ultron in the first place, even more so because unlike SW he never INTENDED to do harm.
Good fucking god, anon, you call someone's argument stupid and then post this shit? Even the law recognizes trauma as mitigating circumstances and intent is a factor in determining murder or manslaughter. There is a difference.
But that doesn't matter because the movie itself presents the twins as tragic and misguided, especially by the company they've falling into but once they join with the Avengers they prove they were always potential heroes. Was it redemption? Was it falling in with the right side for the first times in their life? Both? Was Whedon an idiot?
But as for the law again quite a few courts would find a significant difference in people who have suffered since they were kids (so-called bad home, bad environment) and a grown man who creates a murderbot because he panicked.
>>82602163
Yes it absolutely is. The people controlling him are responsible. On top of that he was a noble soldier before he was captured.
>>82613608
Which is fine, I wasn't arguing anything about Bucky, only Wanda.
>>82613508
Mah nigga
>>82613508
>tfw he went from Joseph Joestar-tier SLUT to getting his asshole torn open by Super Soldier Pillar Men every night
The tables have turned.
>>82613939
What can he say? He loves the feeling of getting buttfucked.
>>82613939
No dignity
>>82613508
I hope the plums doesn't become an overdone meme
>>82613693
You forget that Tony is much of the same money or no, a kid who suffered from a shitty environment(neglectful borderline abusive dad, loved ones leaving and dying all the time) who grew up into an adult STILL fucking continuously suffering.
If we're playing the fucking trauma olympics here you don't think what Tony went through in Afghanistan wasn't just as bad as the dead missile that terrorized the twins for a few days?
And then ever since then it's been one fuckfest after another, parental figures betraying him and trying to kill him, almost dying of illness, the whole almost dying in space thing, Iron Man 3, and NOBODY has been fucking helping him despite him having been a civilian prior to all this.
He was a fucking wreck by the time AOU happened and you give the twins a pass because of their shitty past but despite everything that happened to Tony he's just a grown man that panicked?
This is exactly the shit I'm talking about that is fucking stupid. I'm not saying that Tony isn't still at fault for creating Ultron but it's idiotic to blame him to the extent that he often is while giving Wanda a free fucking pass when they're essentially coming from the same sort of place.
Trauma is a FACTOR and yes so are circumstances and intent but despite your "muh traumatic past" argument Wanda:
1. Actively intended to cause harm to Tony in the name of revenge
2. Willingly worked with the fucking murderbot and caused the Hulk to rampage in the name of getting revenge, civilian casualties be damned
The intent was fucking there, she wasn't coerced and her intent was to cause harm. You think people that actively shoot up places get a pass because they were just aiming for the one dude that abused them as a kid and just "accidentally" killed other people?
For all intents and purposes she should have fucking stood trial for her involvement (as should Tony have also) but it's enough that she felt "sorry" though isn't it?
>>82601154
but bucky literally isn't guilty at all. It'd be as if you killed a bunch of people while sleep walking. You need intent to be guilty of something like that, Bucky lacked intent
>>82614585
According to US law anyone under mind control is considered guilty of the crimes they commit.
>>82602590
He did mitigate it. He went into hiding.
The movie shows that turning himself into the authorities wouldn't have worked, because the moment they have him he's brainwashed again.
>>82614721
Ha! What US law, specifically?
>>82614522
You're actually comparing growing up rich and spoiled but your dad never showing much affection and mentioning Captain America too many times is the same as two kids whose parents were blown up by a weapon made from that same rich asshole and who were then taken and experimented on by Hydra?
Jesus fucking Christ, anon. That is some awesomely skewed perspective you have there.
Tony's trauma in Afghanistan was when he was an adult. Trauma happening on a young, developing brain is a far different matter entirely. Since then his armor and arc reactor tech was copied by Stane to create Ironmonger. His actions and arrogance turned a grieving Ivan to create his first whiplash suit and inspired Justin Hammer to copy him. He created Killian by being a thoughtless ass and wrote out equations that helped create Extremis. His weapons traumatized the twins and screwed them up before Hydra got their hands on them, then he created Ultron. And she didn't even mind control him, she just brought his existing fears to the surface feeling he would destroy himself. His actions in this movie are what ripped the Avengers apart because again his emotions overrode what tiny bit of good judgement he has, which isn't much. After all his goodbye gesture to Rhodey when he thought was dying was alienating his friend and letting him run off with a suit, which lead to Justin Hammer getting his hands on it. Tony can't manage any of his interpersonal relationships. Even when he tries to do right by Pepper he fucks up. In Civil War he dragged a teenager into combat when he knew the kid had powers but only for six months and no training, and Peter nearly got killed.
Tony's worst trauma was his dad being a dick and had his mommy making his booboos feel better. Everything he's done as an adult is on him. He wanted to throw Wanda under house arrest for his own protection but really should start looking closer to home and think about locking himself up. Spend some time in his BARF.
>>82614522
In Captain America: Civi War Tony shows a brief holographic scene of how his father didn't hug him enough to a bunch of young students. It's a sob story to cover up how one of his creations almost created an extinction level event.
You're the kind of person he was trying to dupe with his sappy drama, but no matter how deep you bite into his bait you're not getting that free Stark grant money.
>>82602130
Now to be fair, Wonder Man disguised himself as a hero when he first joined. And it's canon that hulk rarely kills, he only attacks out of self-defense.
>>82601154
Bucky is literally 0% to blame for things he did while being fucking MIND CONTROLLED. He had no say at all in what was happening.
On top of that, why is Iron Man too retarded to realize that, and how am I meant to ever like that character again?
>calls him "Manchurian Candidate" so clearly he knows about the mind control
>sees Bucky kill his parents while under the mind control that he already knows about
>instead of doing what a rational, respectable human being would do and directing his anger at HYDRA, he attempts to fucking MURDER BUCKY AND STEVE
Add being a murderous dumbass to the growing list of reasons why Tony Stark is an unlikable character, along with being a pseudo-fascist, a hypocrite, and an emotionally weak irrational crybaby.
>>82616209
Tony knew it, he just didn't care.
BUT
his actions are completely in-character. Tony has a horrific track record that whenever he is under emotional strain he makes terrible decisions. He's also known for being an obnoxious hypocrite. There is a comparative case that weapons Tony designed being used to kill innocent people without his consent is very similar to Bucky being made into a living weapon who was used to kill innocent people without his consent. Tony has more degrees of separation in that he merely made the weapons, he wasn't the weapon himself.
>>82602537
>This fucking bullshit with "100% guilty" is typical leftwing faggotry "victors (re)write history" bullshit.
Fuck no it ain't.
That's just outright stupidity all around no matter what your political affiliation is.
>>82605868
X-men, anon. Sentinels programmed to kill mutants, especially US mutants.
>>82616534
I think it's better to say that Bucky is 100% guilty because he FEELS guilty. I'm just talking about feelings here, not guilt as in criminal or moral liability.
Steve can tell Bucky that he wasn't in control and that it wasn't his fault. Bucky can even believe this. And, owing to the complex workings of the human brain, he can STILL feel overwhelming guilt. He can feel conflicting emotions that would seriously screw him up. He can remember every mission, every victim, as he commits his horrors. It doesn't matter that he had no control, the trauma of the actions is indelibly ingrained in his mind. It's even possible that he has reduced capacity to feel guilt assuming Hydra spent time desensitizing his brain to make him more malleable, and they probably did.
He's an interesting cast but we don't have a lot of details on the inner workings of his mind. Unfortunately the guy hired to psychoanalyze him had an "accident" and was replaced at the last moment. All we know is that he's seriously fucked up. I suspect he's happier being in cryo storage since he doesn't have to deal with what he remembers.
>>82601154
>bucky
>unpunished
>undeserving of happiness
pls no bully
>>82609959
Cap's not dying in IW2
>>82603006
I don't think Tony was thinking that far. The obvious assumption is that it wouldn't have gotten that far under any other circumstance.
If he'd had time after that video and the circumstances were different, his reaction would probably be that Bucky should be locked up somewhere intense or refrozen. I could even see him going as far as subtly making the argument that they should just peacefully put Bucky to death because even if you know someone is brainwashed, I can't imagine it's easy to get over looking at the face you know horrifically killed your parents. That probably would have sparked a whole argument on its own, really.
>>82603486
But undoubtedly someone would have found him eventually and launched him again. Even putting himself around others was dangerous and he knew it. I think Bucky is 100% victim and that's still the truth.
>>82617003
>It doesn't matter that he had no control, the trauma of the actions is indelibly ingrained in his mind.
Well if it was hypnosis he sort of had control. The thing behind a hypnotic state is that the person isn't puppeted, they're highly suggestible. Their perception and understanding of reality is altered to justify the suggestion. He probably felt like he wanted to do it at the time. That's gotta be a complicated feeling to deal with.
>>82605140
BUT THEY PUT HER TEMPORARILY IN JAIL WITH HER BOYFRIEND VISION. IT'S NOT FAAAAAAIR, ANON! SHE DINDU!!!!
>>82617889
>But undoubtedly someone would have found him eventually and launched him again.
He had good reason to think they wouldn't. Hydra was seemingly destroyed and it wasn't clear anyone was left who knew the codes. Circumstances acted against him given Zemo used intel he decrypted that Black Widow released on the web to track down the guy who had a code book that could be used on Bucky. Even then finding Bucky was an extremely difficult prospect given it was taking Cap and his resources years and Zemo kickstarted an international incident to flush him out.
If Zemo hadn't become involved in the hunt for Bucky it's entirely possible he could have gone the rest of his life undiscovered.
>>82605696
In the end this is why Bucky is a shit character and I don't get why anyone but Tumblr gayshippers like him. He's literally nothing. He has no plot or agency of his own. He's a glorified plot device and his brainwashing is completely wrecking any sort of interesting personal growth he has. There's nothing interesting about a pure victim character who gets shat on constantly and you're meant to feel sorry for over and over again.
He's like the damsels in distress of olden days with no interesting personality, but then also shlock on a healthy dose of "d'awwwww poor baby look at him suffer!!!" and you have Bucky. There's no balance to his character at all.
>>82618056
It would just require someone like Zemo, and there's no telling how many people like that are out there. The longer he's out is just a longer time to play the odds
>>82617927
Their primary source of control was wiping his memories. Whenever he was unfrozen too long his memories began to restore and the more memories he had the more difficult he was to control. At least according to TWS.
>>82617991
Tony put her under house arrest, he claimed, because they were going to come in and take her by force otherwise. They were going to do the same to the Hulk when he went on his rampage in AOU but went into hiding instead.
Oddly it was Vision who said they'd protect her from the government since he didn't feel she did anything wrong. By the end of the movie we aren't even sure he feels any guilt or remorse for what he did to Rhodes.
>>82615541
He didn't create Killian. Just stop. You aren't accountable for everything some psycho does just because you were an asshole to them once.
The only bad guy Tony created was Ultron. And everything Wanda has done is on her too, no matter how you hash it. The difference is that Wanda fully and knowingly intended to do harm. That DOES make her a worse person.
>>82618218
>It would just require someone like Zemo
No, it also required Black Widow having Hydra's files to release and Zemo being able to obtain the ledger because the guy who had it was too stupid to live.
That guy had TWS code book with details on the base where more Winter Soldiers were stored and he was doing jack shit with it.
The correct answer is that it would happen as soon as the plot dictated it and since it's a fictional comic book universe these kinds of extremely unlikely circumstances happen all the time unlike in real life. Whether or not Bucky could recognize he's in a comic book universe or not, well he wouldn't because the plot also dictates he doesn't. He's no Deadpool.
>>82603009
What negligence? Why are you blaming him for Hydra's brainwashing? You are daft.
>>82605149
This because Tony is also in the dindu category, fucker gets absolved for wvwrything he does.
>>82618272
I assumed the mind wipe was to keep him pliable. The command words were clearly hypnosis. The electroshock kept him docile, but the command words actually got him to do things.
>>82618319
>He didn't create Killian. Just stop. You aren't accountable for everything some psycho does just because you were an asshole to them once.
He broke Killian's heart and Killian used the Extremis formula which Stark helped Maya "perfect" enough for borderline human stability trials (it was still by no means perfect) and Killian used this formula to remake himself. Unlike Stane or Justin Hammer or Ivan Vanko, whom Stark merely inspired, Tony had a direct hand in the recreation of Aldrich Killian. Maybe, just maybe, when you give a fellow scientist the key to creating a formula that can rewrite life itself you MAYBE keep better tabs on her. Especially if you're a guy who became a born again peacenik because you realized weapons you created were being abused in ways you never intended.
>>82618218
Turning himself is also risky odds because the governments all over the world are infested with hydra agents. Advertising his location could have gotten him zemo'd faster than being in hiding.
>>82618482
The command phrase was only short term control and we saw how fast they broke down again, presumably due to the lack of a mindwipe.
It was enough to put him under control again, actually what rendered him pliable to control, but his consciousness reasserted control after being knocked out and rescued by Steve. This wouldn't have been stable enough for true field work when their weapon could be rendered unconscious and then be lost when he woke up again, so I cannot imagine it was the full Winter Soldier treatment. Which of course it wasn't.
>>82618272
I'm sorry Rhodes I was trying to murder that other negro, I have the hardest time telling you apart
>>82605308
Not exactly, Hawkeye got away with killing people while brainwashed and Tony got away with all the shit he did so white guys got away with it too.
Reminder that he was willing to drop Sokovia full of people in it just to stop Ultron's (the AI he created with Bruce) plan and he also made Vision, who could have turned out worse, to stop Ultron.
And he was arrogant about till the end.
>>82618590
Yeah he was missing the memory wipe before the control phrases. Memory wipe probably makes it so he doesn't get untriggered because he can't make any associations or recognize things.
>>82618606
The funny thing is AOU had Cho's tech that could be used to rebuild tissue and even though the human nervous system is VERY delicate and hard to repair her technology was used to create Vision himself. Vision himself is living (he's earned the distinction) proof of what their super science can do.
So they should just rebuild Rhodey's spine and then Black Widow's crotch. You know Tony has thought about that last one already.
>>82618505
As much as Tony is an asshole and a shitstain of a human being I have to agree with the other anon that Killian wasn't his responsibility.
Killian is responsible for his own actions and he should have used his genius to one up Tony in his own game instead of going full vullain paycho.
>>82618658
The weird thing, I mean maybe it's weird, is that Bucky didn't remember who Cap really was until after the code phrase was used on him and the helicopter crash. Before then he was just some guy Bucky learned some details about in a museum and whom he saved without understanding why.
That's kind of freaky since it implies that all that time Bucky was on the run he didn't even know who he was, he just knew he had to remain hidden.
>>82618590
In WS he had a supporting team. I wouldn't doubt he often had a handler keeping tabs on him during more covert missions. If he fell unconscious, he could be recovered and mindwiped again if neccesary.
From WS it seems he also had a time limit before they put him back in cryo. The whole fiasco seemed to have gone on longer than they were accustomed to, and seeing Steve only worsened their grip on him. I think under typical circumstances he would remain docile for longer after a treatment, but he was out for years in CW so he reverted pretty much instantly.
>>82615541
Your arguments are going the fuck around in circles, first you say that SW gets a pass because she was traumatized and Tony wasn't, then you say that Tony's trauma doesn't count because the majority of it happened when he was an adult.
PTSD and the host of problems that come with it doesn't suddenly become easier to manage because it happens when you're an adult.
But in any event NONE of that addresses the damn point that Wanda STILL acted with the intent to harm and succeeded in achieving that and yet somehow again she gets a pass.
You try to excuse Wanda with arguments of appealing to "oh but she was just a confused child who had a bad past" but in the end she STILL fucked up majorly and the lack of accountability she's had has been ridiculous.
If you can use trauma to excuse SW you have to use it to excuse Tony, and you have to use it to excuse ANYONE who has a similarly fucked up past
You realize that this is the logic held by a lot of terrorists right? Let's even ignore the whole mind fuck thing just for you, let's go with the Hulk incident. In the name of taking revenge on Stark who she sees as a symbol of her fucked up life and the fucked up status of life for her country, she decides to cause an incident in a crowded area that could have and WOULD have resulted in HUNDREDS of civilian casualties (and did result in some) if it wasn't for the sheer chance that Tony had built hulkbuster armor. But that's ok because Tony indirectly traumatized her as a kid right?
Once again the point you have YET to refute is why one person having a traumatic past makes it ok to actively seek revenge and harm another person and then fuck up a bunch of other people in the pursuit of it and then not be held accountable. If you can I'm still waiting to hear it.
>>82618790
I got the impression he knew, he was just playing dumb to get Steve to leave him alone.
>>82618758
Maya's Extremis wasn't perfect. Tony gave her some equations that helped her but the formula was still not truly stable. Killian used it to repair his body's damage but because the formula wasn't ready it's very probable that it fucked Killian up on a fundamental level.
At any rate when you help let a genie that powerful out of the bottle you better believe you are goddamn responsible for how it's abused. Especially when it's something you aren't 100% sure could have been done without your influence.
>>82618692
>You know Tony has thought about that last one already.
He has, and decided it would be a terrible thing. Widow just can't have babies, not that she can't have sex. Last thing Tony would want would be little Starklings running around and messing with his suits.
>>82618584
And realistically, it's not even just Hydra that he has to worry about. Remember, the main government representative in the movie was the same guy who wanted to vivisect Bruce Banner and considered him a piece of property. I'm not liking Bucky's odds here.
>>82618790
He was lying. Cap called him out in it. He was trying to start a new life, but what he learner about Cap from the museum was that he was still fighting that same war from 70 years ago. Bucky just wanted to retire and get out of the fighting business.
>>82602281
Maybe Tony should of use his hulk buster suit to pull hulk out of the city instead of leveling a tower and slamming an elevator around a crowded lobby.
During the film, did anyone else find it funny and draw parallels between Bucky's situation and Cykes' following his run-in with the Phoenix Force?
>>82619021
And given what happened in the movie as soon as he turned himself in, Bucky was right. He was never triggered while in hiding. In custody he fell back into the wrong hands immediately.
>>82602163
>*cough*cough*
>>82615541
Oh and concerning Wanda, nothing Tony did concerning her in CW was wrong despite "muh freedoms."
She's a highly publicized and polarized figure without a visa and therefore without rights that the government is ITCHING to take control of whether to use her or put her in jail.
Is putting her under "house arrest" akin to stuffing her in a fucking jail for you people? She's in a building which is her home, with her friends.
You think for an instant that if she were allowed outside after the incident with Crossbones (which I can fully agree wasn't her fault) that the government wouldn't find some sort of excuse to take her in?
Or what if something else happened while she was minding her own day to day business and even more collateral damage occurred? It doesn't matter whether she was provoked or if it was unavoidable, fuck the government might have even staged it, it'll turn into another fucking manhunt like with Barnes and then she'd REALLY be fucked.
And all of this could be avoided if she just stays in Avengers tower for a while until shit either blows over or if Steve had actually worked with Tony on the accords (fuck he would have still been able to refuse to sign if negotiations didn't get him all the terms he wanted but he didn't even try) to get her some protection.
But no people start screaming about how she's being trapped in a cage or some shit because fuck reality.
>>82618836
Anon, you're seeing what you want to see. Nobody said Tony didn't have mitigating issues, just that there is a fundamental difference between being traumatized as a kid and becoming a hydra guinea pig than being a rich douchebag with daddy issues. You know, because there are. Nobody is saying Tony's trauma doesn't count, but it's a recognized fact in the world, with legal precedent, that how adult's deal with crises and that being fucked up during your as a child can mean that you never became a fully normal adult due to past trauma during your formative years.
What you claim are "circular arguments" is actually consistency in the arguments. It didn't go anywhere because it didn't have to. You also are failing to recognize that Wanda was never given a "pass", she was given an opportunity to use her powers to make up for her mistakes. She was given a chance to redeem her actions. The initial post that triggered you >>82603875 didn't deal with Tony at all except to say that it was possible for her to have a PERCEPTION of Tony and the Avengers he was a part of were evil because he has made a huge number of mistakes. It didn't deal at all with why Tony made those mistakes or whether or not he has his own excuses.
Your attempt to make this Wanda vs.Tony was on you. Both characters are allowed to continue on as heroes and try to make the world better despite their mistakes, and for what it is worth Wanda's view on Tony has apparently changed. Whether she's back to thinking he's the world's biggest douchebag thanks to his actions in this movie remains to be seen.
>>82619067
I didn't get that in the movie at all. The first indication that Bucky had his full (or at least most of his memory back) was when he told Steve information that only he'd know. That's why Steve tells Sam that it was knowledge you couldn't get in any museum.
>>82604366
>bucky outright tells cap his not gonna kill anyone
>ZOMG HE KLL DEM UN HITSQUAD I NO HE KIL DEM BECUZ TONY SED SO
>>82618272
>They were going to do the same to the Hulk when he went on his rampage in AOU
No, Hill called and told them no one was calling for Banner's arrest.
>>82619432
Her point was yet, but she felt it was coming. That's why she told them not to come back to Avengers tower, anon. Not because they were out of snack food.
>>82619337
No, he was lying to Cap because he didn't know Cap was there to save his life. He knew he was wanted and he was trying to lie low, so he wasn't about to admit that he was the guy they were looking for.
>>82604900
>here you go judge, here is zemo the guy that mind controlled him recently
>heres the book of his Russian conditioning
>heres the hydra files filled with decades of hits they sent him on after using the mind control on him
>>82601838
Is a cartoon not a real movie
>>82619261
Tony was taking control over other people's lives because he felt it was better than the government. He was acting like there were two choices here, Wanda imprisoned by the government or Wanda imprisoned by him, despite being a supposedly intelligent person that he should realize fundamentally those were actually still the same thing: being imprisoned. Steve rightly called him out on that. There were other options.
You're just farting around a fundamental flaw in Civil War which is that in the real world there are incidents of collateral damage in battle all the time. The US has launched drone strikes against funerals and apartment buildings to kill high value targets despite knowing damn well there would be civilian casualties. They've even "whoopsed" and blown up hospitals.
What Wanda did, if it happened under the Accords, would be waved off as an unfortunate incident. That was Steve's point. It was shifting the blame. Just because governments sanction it they shrug it off and the Avengers are blameless. The Accords would have changed nothing. The Avengers would still be called in to deal with heavy problems like Hydra agents trying to steal bioweapons or alien invasions and shit would still happen. People, innocent people, would still regrettably die. Tony was acting purely out of guilt. He thinks he'll sleep better knowing that 117 signatory countries are to blame, not him. But that's bullshit and he won't sleep any better. It's why him trying to murder Bucky wouldn't have helped. His parents would still be dead and he'd have murdered a man he knew was mind controlled into a weapon. His parents wouldn't approve and ultimately he'd not feel better, he'd feel worse for having killed Bucky.
THAT was a deliberate act of intentional malice. Scarlet Witch made a mistake when under the strain of trying to contain a bomb capable of blowing off the corner of a building.
>>82619563
>No, he was lying to Cap because he didn't know Cap was there to save his life.
And it would have become rather clear soon into the fight that Cap wasn't there to kill him and kept trying to help him.
You have a particular take on events but it's not really shown in the movie that way. When Bucky is finally shown to remember who Steve is then he agrees to cooperate. Until then he was treating everyone as hostile because he didn't know who to trust. Because he can distrust Steve's reasons for confronting him in Bucharest WITHOUT lying to him. Lying in that circumstance makes no sense. He'd have no problem calling Steve out if he felt Steve was a treat.
>>82619775
He says he doesn't know him and Steve says he's lying because he's nervous. The notebook Steve is looking through has a picture of Cap in it. It's obviously more than just remembering him from the museum.
>>82619917
He knows Bucky, on some level, feels a connection to him because Bucky saved him. Bucky says he doesn't know why and Steve says that isn't true. That's the only point I saw where he claimed Bucky wasn't being honest, but that is open to interpretation whether he meant Bucky is deliberately lying or whether he meant somewhere inside Bucky is the truth even if it's not on the surface.
>>82620067
Do you know who I am?
You're Steve, I read about you in a museum.
I know you're nervous and you have every reason to be, but you're lying.
Steve had a notebook of Bucky's memories right in his hands. He knew Bucky was lying. Bucky was freaked out because he saw his picture in the newspaper and then Captain America in his apartment.
>>82620165
Why does the notebook surprise you? He already knows Bucky feels enough to save him. He feels enough to go to a museum.
He feels Bucky is lying. He doesn't know what is going on in Bucky's head. He protects Bucky because the feelings he has for his own friend. In essence the same reason, the same instincts, that made Bucky protect him. He calls Bucky out on just reading about him in a museum and you're trying to stretch it into him lying about, what, having 100% restored memories of his life with Steve? He's saying it because Bucky knows what he feels and has obviously been trying to piece his life back together. That's what the notebook is, anon. Steve had one to try to catch up on what he'd missed while frozen. Bucky has one to try to piece together not what he missed in the world but what he's missing about HIMSELF while he was frozen and in Hydra custody.
Of course Steve is going to believe Bucky is lying if Bucky acts like he's just some dude he saw in a museum because he knows Bucky saved him. He knows the real Bucky is in there. That doesn't mean either that Bucky is back to normal (he's not) or that Steve believes he's back to normal.
>>82613102
>>82613152
>no Bucky and Daisy go off on a space mission, take space-lsd with Loki and have existential vision quests
10/10 would watch. That concept was probably the only redeeming thing Ales Kot has done, even though he made it incredibly boring by the end.
>>82613102
Wouldn't the guilt feed into his PTSD? I mean he remembers murdering people. That's not something you can pass off as, "But that's not really me." Saying, "But that's not really me," is just the thing that keeps you from biting a bullet due to the grief you have to live with.
