What exactly makes Jim Lee such a high profile artist? When DC reboots their universe, why does Jim Lee, specifically get to redesign every last DC character. Why is Jim Lee drawing the artwork of a comic such a huge selling point?
>>82523976
He's a pretty good artist 2bh
It's all industry cronyism. He handled himself very well with Image in the 90's.
>>82523976
He was one of the best of the 90s artists, and he's managed his career really well. Now he's beloved because his style is attached to a lot of well-regarded books. He's also gotten a lot better since the 90s, unlike Liefeld or most of the other hotshots from that era.
>>82524110
He was awful in the 90s.
>>82523976
His art is really good. I don't love his designs however, except short ears Batman.
>>82524136
but muh crosshatching
>>82524110
Nah brah, it's the cronyism
You can paint it up and talk about his talent and style aging well and all that shit but the bottom line is Jim Lee is Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld is Rob Liefeld because Jim Lee is better at making friends and playing the game.
If you don't believe that then explain to me how Bob Harras' """""talent""""" got him where he is.
>>82523976
He's generally pretty good at designs IMO. I'm not a huge fan of the Nu52 designs, but most of those were editorially-mandated changes--look at his first attempts before DC shot them down. Also, he designed pic related, which is my fav GL costume of all time. It's a crab mask away from utter perfection.
>>82523976
See: >>82524015
>>82523998
>>82524110
>>82524151
He objectively never learned to draw. He can't do even the most basic anatomy, his proportions are inaccurate and inconsistent, he lacks any ability whatsoever to draw detail so he just puts random lines all over everything, and like every other 90s Image guy he never got the hang of perspective (which is supposed to be the FIRST thing you learn).
He's a less exaggerated version of Liefeld, nothing more.
>>82524182
I think cronyism is very real--you're on point about Bob Harras. But Lee and Liefeld WERE interchangable in the 90s; now Lee is pretty good, while Liefeld is the same garbage he always was. Don't tell me there's no difference between 90s Swimsuit-Issue Lee and 2010s Lee.
Jim Lee co-founded Image Comics, founded WildStorm Productions and published Wildstorm through Image, sold WildStorm to DC, and was given a position of power within DC in exchange for WildStorm.
Now he's the co-publisher of DC Comics (a powerful position in DC Entertainment) and he gets to make Big Decisions like whether or not to reboot and what designs to use in the next relaunch.
>>82524205
>He's generally pretty good at designs
He's objectively the worst designer that ever lived in any medium.
>>82524240
Not that guy, but the only difference is digital inking and digital coloring. Look at his raw pencils. They look the same as always, maybe worse if anything.
>>82524249
>worst designer that ever lived in any medium
Nah son, you're thinking of Tetsuya Nomura
>>82524249
Counterpoint
>>82524227
Which artists do you like then?
>>82524182
>it's the cronyism
His sales aren't due to cronyism
>>82524311
What is posting a work of pure genius that Lee and no other designer could ever hope to achieve supposed to prove?
>>82524392
His only real MASSIVE hits are X-Men and Batman comics, where the sales had NOTHING to do with the art. His issue of Multiversity was one of the lowest selling issues of the mini.
>>82523976
Jim Lee himself is a brand
>>82524392
Cronyism got him in the position where he decides what to draw and what he decides to draw is Batman, JLA, Superman, etc. so yea his sales are kind of due to cronyism
>>82524280
You know, most of his inks are not digital. Plus, though he has improved considerably since the 90s, he was never anywhere near as bad as Liefeld.
>>82524249
>harleyfags
>>82524422
>>82524430
Let's see you guys repeat this when Suicide Squad starts selling pretty well
because he had wildstorm
>>82523976
His style mainly. Especially since digital has allowed him to get more detailed with it.
IMO he's the best of the 90s artists.
However, he does have problems. His characters can suffer from same-face and ethnicity shifts. (Look at his Dr. Manhatten)
His biggest issue is one he shares with Alex Ross, it takes him forever to finish just one page. He needs substantial lead time to do any sort of ongoing and is best suited for small miniseries books.
>>82524544
This. There is a reason DC put Jim Lee on Suicide Squad, and it has everything to do with the masses considering him top, important, BIG NAME talent.
But why?
>>82523976
Sometime in the 90s his and j Scott Campbell's "style" of crosshatching, expressionless musclemen and huge tits became the face of comics art for the public
You know when people ssay retarded ass shit like "comicbooky" they picture either a scowling Lee figure or something Lichtenstein-like
>>82524639
Does Alex Ross still draw comics?
>>82524544
You don't think the Lee putting himself as artists on DC's most hyped property starring DC's most hyped character before DC's most hyped movie might have something to do with sales?
>>82523976
He was an Image guy who also knew how to run a business without going full retard. He got out when the going was good and sold Wildstorm to DC and made enough friends there.
He's also less scummy than Liefield. And improved his art.
>>82524721
Officially: Yes
But he hasn't done a book in awhile. He's mainly being living off of appearances and commission artwork.
However, he has been long rumored to be working on a Superman epic the last few years. It wouldn't surprise me if that's what he's been working on heavily the last few years.
>>82524720
Yeah, he basically lucked out and ended up working on X-men when it blew up, so his X-men and Punisher covers became one of the first super hyped comics you spend 30 bucks on because it would pay for your college tuition later.
>>82524799
>a Superman epic the last few years.
Sauce? Is he even on good terms with DC?
>>82524822
Was McFarlane bigger than Lee in the ninties? Bigger than Leifeld?
>>82524544
>>82524703
You faggots seriously don't think that's because of the movie? The movie is the ONLY reason anyone will ever buy that book.
>>82524799
>He's mainly being living off of appearances and commission artwork.
And cover work, for Marvel especially.
>It wouldn't surprise me if that's what he's been working on heavily the last few years.
I don't think so since he's done a lot of covers for Marvel lately but practically none for DC.
>>82524892
Yes. McFarlane was a borderline legit celebrity in the 90s, or at least among "geek culture" he was. Lee was the second biggest artist of the 90s. Liefeld was probably top 5 or at least top 10. This had 100% to do with them being shysters who cashed in on the speculator market and nothing else.
You can justifiably criticize his ability all you want but it doesn't change the fact that Jim Lee is an A-list artist whose name pushes books into the top ten and has been for decades.
I prefer Jae Lee tbqh famalams
>>82524957
>but practically none for DC
He's also the current Astro City (Vertigo) cover artist.
>>82524249
Why does /co/ love using the word objective to back up their obviously subjective and unfounded opinions? Specially when making hyperbolic statements like this.
Btw about that statement, Derrick J. Wyatt is considerably worse.
>>82525106
Yeah but that's been a thing long before Astro City was under Vertigo
>Jim Lee is a better artist than Rob Liefeld
This is a hilarious meme.Rob Liefeld did tons of experimental shit with his comics art and the notion he is a terrible artist is completely unfair. Anatomy isn't shit. Anatomy isn't shit in any other display of art, there is room for anatomy to not be shit in comics, the very act of cartooning proves anatomy isn't shit - only complete fucking plebs who have no understanding of visuals at all get hung up on anatomy. Liefeld's color choices, panel structure, backgrounds, etc. were often interesting and revolutionary in his industry. Jim Lee is the Liefeld meme you love to hate.
>>82524999
Man, I remember that video where Stan Lee gave McFarlane and Liefeld the name "Overkill" so they can design a character based on the name right there.
He was tearing both of them multiple new assholes continuously. It was hilarious.
>>82525232
>Liefeld's color choices, panel structure, backgrounds, etc. were often interesting and revolutionary in his industry.
Post examples
>>82524892
Yeah, McFarlane also basically invented collector's toys in the United States in the 1990's. Articulation was bad but his molds were so much better than anything else out on the market.
Spawn was also big enough for there to be a movie about it and an HBo series.
Jim Lee was a good artist, but Wildstorm only had the animated Gen13 movie and some action figures.
Though hiring Warren Ellis for DV8 basically kickstarted his career. I don't know how many people cared about Doom 2099.
>>82525322
HAHA TIME FOR 90's
>>82525232
What a fucking joke. The artist you're talking about is Kirby. Kirby didn't give a shit about anatomy or classical art but he made shit his own through pure style and energy (not to mention decades of experience) and rewrote the book on superhero storytelling. Leifeld is just a poor artist who always was a poor artist and always will be a poor artist and pretty much anything contribution he's given the medium is negative.
>>82525257
I don't have examples to hand but like, what come to mind:
>shaped panels, e.g. exclamation mark panels
>use of panels as objects the characters interacted with
>abstract highly detailed color backgrounds
>rapid shifting of color shading between panels
He did a great like shutter effect where he lines up smaller panels to add dynamism to a larger or central one. Or sometime he'd space out and just use very abstract shapes in the background to convey motion to his characters.
Modern digital coloring isn't kind to him. But there's this notion that Liefeld did not think at all about the art he was making or all his shit is just fucking terrible. No, he thought about it a lot and he produced what was a pretty unique effort in cape comics at the time.
>>82523976
1) He is DC's Co-Publisher. He can put himself on any book he wants.
2) He drew the highest selling comic of all time (X-Men #1)
>>82525371
I'm not insulting Kirby by praising Liefeld. I love Kirby's art.
>>82525381
I enjoy a lot of early Image, since it does stuff you're not supposed to do. It's literally hungry young people just doing whatever the fuck they want.
Though Liefield reminds of a Romero in that he made a great game and let the rockstar status go to his head.
>>82523976
Google exists, man. I usually don't say that but Jim Lee's... we'll say accomplishments... are well documented. He did this shit with the X-Men in 91 and he helped form Image and make it what it was/is. Dude's sold units before and after issues were moving 100k.
You do shit like that and you get to do whatever the fuck you want. Is it "right" or "deserved"? That seems to come down to whether or not you like the guy.
>Jim Lee has a huge boner for Frank Millar
>eventually he draws ASSBAR
I love how small the comics world is.
>>82525478
It's really endearing how in the early days of Image guys like Liefeld, Jim Lee, etc. worked with and published guys like Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, etc. who were creatively from a completely different planet but unified by their FUCK THE BIG 2 ethos.
>>82525478
Image is still kind of hungry people doing whatever the fuck they want on some level. There's a stereotypical Image book now for sure, but you still have Brandon Graham & co. there and he puts a lot of work into finding talent and giving it a voice. In all manner of different styles.
The K6BD guy is probably going to release a GN through Image at the end of the year.
>>82525514
This
Also his art is so generic that most people can enjoy it and his style is attached to big characters like Batman and Superman. Hush being baby's first Batman comic helps.
>>82525538
James Robinson, too.
He did a few issues of WildCATS.
Also, half of the current big two artists did Image stuff at some point.
>>82525232
Are you basing these statements on that Horrocks series of X-Force reviews because if yes you are just as terrible as those fuckheads who go around calling anything slightly cartoony "Liefeldian"
He didn't color those comics. While interesting and certainly kinda experimental (for a book called X-Force..?) those layouts were, they're far from "revolutionary in his industry". And finally, one short run of nicely laid-out and colored comics doesn't excuse 10+ more of shit work
tl;dr I wish was critical thinking was more fashionable, parroting other people opinions was passe and all you cunts ate shit and died. No offence/
>>82524227
> muh anatomy
>>82525538
>Alan Moore goes to Wildstorm to create America's Best Comics.
>Jim Lee sells it all to DC
>>82525538
Yeah they got to work with the people who inspired them, like Keith Giffen. He wrote some stuff for Erik Larsen and he got to do his own comic Trencher that was basically to the 90's what Lobo was to the 80's
>>82525643
>>Jim Lee sells it all to DC
All of those companies were struggling when the market for foil wrapped covers crashed. Moreover, people started buying trades, not floppies, and trades require you to print loads of books and then have them sit in a warehouse.
>>82525643
> Jim Lee flies to England to convince Moore to stay
> Moore stays because he already promised work to the artists
>>82525760
Shouldn't you be adding lines to a Superman costume right now, Jim?
>>82525776
>> Moore stays because he already promised work to the artists
Moore, for all of his weirdness, is a bro.
>>82526095
WHOA
I didn't know Moore can draw!
Especially not that he's so good at it!
>>82526205
Didn't he draw Tharg's Future Shocks?
>>82526078
DC can be scummy as fuck and they are insular as hell, but they didn't drive comics into a hole like Marvel did.
Also, the 80's independent boom produced some of the best comics ever, but when was the last time you picked up a First comic?
>>82525322
>but Wildstorm only had the animated Gen13 movie and some action figures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtSPJZ-qlhA
>>82523976
Isn't Jim Lee not just an artist at DC?
>>82523976
He pioneered the three dimensional look over the flat cartoons of the older eras
>>82526406
WILDCATS!
WILDCATS!
WILDCATS!
His artwork is pleb friendly. I gave a friend of mine TPBs if I got two of them and the latest was Hush. His reaction to it was "This one I might actually read because the art is good." I didn't give him any more of them because that comment made me realize that he just took them and didn't even read them.
>>82526768
>"This one I might actually read because the art is good."
This why we get covered by two page spreads in 4.99 dollar books.
>>82526095
He always does right by his artists, even when he's continuously done over by management. He left Fleetway in the 80s because of the shoddy treatment of creatives on 2000AD, and went to DC who promised to be better. They do him over, Jim Lee gets him (and a lot of the other scorned UK writers and artists) to come to them promising freedom and the chance to never have to work for DC again. ABC gets sold to DC. Not long after that the movies start, with From Hell getting turned into a Johnny Depp vehicle.
You can argue about how he should have been more careful or should have compromised more, but he has pretty legitimate reasons to be grumpy
>>82524110
Liefeld has gotten marginally better, but not by much
Also time seems to have turned him into a complete asshole when he's saying that indie publishers like Valiant will "never last". Ironic considering that's what everyone said about Image 20 some odd years ago
>>82527112
I always feel it's worth pointing out that the only reason Moore attacked V for Vendetta is the producer literally just lied and said that Moore supported the film and Moore wanted to set the record straight
Snyder did something similar with Watchmen where he said, "I think one day, Alan Moore will check it out and enjoy it!" so Moore said "No I won't. Shut up and fuck off."
They think cause he's a weirdo and a bit of a recluse they can just say whatever they want and he won't respond but he does respond when they address him or try to speak for him and I don't think he's crazy or grumpy for that.
>>82523976
I think he partially owns the company. Or he has some money stake in DC of some kind.
>>82527496
>he partially owns the company
Yea, Jim Lee is just a pen name. His real name is Jim Lee Warner. He's the long lost fifth Warner brother.
>>82524799
Dude he has tons of money. He never sells art he does at cons. He gives them out to people randomly for free. Get your facts straight.
>>82527473
I'd forgotten about that, God.
>Snyder did something similar with Watchmen where he said, "I think one day, Alan Moore will check it out and enjoy it!" so Moore said "No I won't. Shut up and fuck off."
You reminded me of these anecdotes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS0r3VNdV_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHRWelDTPK4
I knew someone who lives in his home town and ran into him a few times. Nice man with a very dry sense of humour, quite private, frightening beard.
>>82524227
His anatomy looks just fine, or maybe you confuse him with Liefeld. Also funny how Jim Lee gets shit on but artists like Bagley are considered "good" here
>>82528048
Bagley's not very good but his style doesn't look anywhere near as stiff.
>>82528141
Doesn't look anywhere as good either.
>>82527473
I remember hearing Alan Moore liked David Hayter's screenplay for Watchmen and Zack really wanted to give Moore a credit in the film.
Basically he said he liked the script but he still wasn't going to watch the movie. I wonder if he meant he wouldn't pay to see it or if he meant even if someone sent him a pirated copy he still wouldn't watch it on principle.
>>82528048
I'm not the world's biggest Bagley fan, but his style was perfect for USM. He fit that book so well Immonen looked like a poser, and he's a much better artist than Bags. Also, he could stick with a book, which Lee can't.
>>82528246
He was happy when Terry Gilliam was gonna direct
>>82528246
He hated the idea. Snyder said he'd like Moore to throw on the DVD in his flat in London or whatever and say 'this isn't so bad,' and Moore said, "I'm not going to watch it in 'London' (cuz he lives in the fucking Midlands like an animal). I don't want a DVD. I'm never going to watch the fucking thing. I'll be spitting venom all over it." Sounds like he was pretty down on the whole deal.
>>82528246
He'll never watch it. He even said in some interview few years back that he no longer has a copy of the comic in his house. Also I highly doubt that he said that he liked the script.
>>82524015
I wonder if it's just that he knows here the dead hookers are buried.
>>82524227
>He objectively never learned to draw.
>>82524249
>He's objectively the worst designer that ever lived in any medium.
You're objectively the worst at making judgments
>>82528304
>>82528312
>>82528352
>While Moore believes that David Hayter's screenplay was "as close as I could imagine anyone getting to Watchmen," he asserted he did not intend to see the film if it were made.
Took that from wikipedia. So I was at least half right.
>>82523976
I just don't understand why they let him do so many redesigns or keep letting him draw books with Killer Croc. Croc looks like a toothy moss man with mismatched eyes every time he draws him.
>>82524422
>where the sales had NOTHING to do with the art.
This is a bullshit myth you pulled out of your ass. Go compare the sales on the Jim Lee drawn-issues with the Loeb/Sale Batman comics or the regular series on Comichron.
Some sales on Batman: The Long Halloween
#1 63,230
#2 56,771
#3 53,454
#12 51,157
#13 52,176
Batman before Hush:
Batman #604 48,734
Batman #605 56,367
Batman #606 47,202
Batman #607 46,527
some issues of Batman: Hush:
Batman #608 120,945
Batman #609 101,681
Batman #610 117,380
Batman #611 129,377
Seriously, I think Jim Lee is one of the problems with the industry today and even I know to check facts before spouting complete bullshit.
>>82528577
This logic is fucking idiotic. Do you really think if Hush was drawn by Sale it wouldn't have sold as well? It has nothing to do with Lee, it's because Hush was Loeb's return to Batman after the massively popular and universally praised Long Halloween / Dark Victory.
Irvin Kershner isn't a bigger draw than George Lucas because ESB made more money than ANH.
>>82528686
>Dark Victory
>universally praised
>>82528761
Fair enough but it was definitely a massive success and was highly anticipated
>>82528778
True, true. I agree with your point, kind of. I think the sales increase was partly Loeb, partly Lee, and partly "ooh big hyped event"
>>82528686
>Do you really think if Hush was drawn by Sale it wouldn't have sold as well?
Yes, because Batman Long Halloween only got 50,000 to 60,000 on sales. Did you even read the post?
And you want Dark Victory sales too?
Batman Dark Victory #1 57,115
Batman Dark Victory #3 55,427
Batman Dark Victory #7 49,656
Batman Dark Victory #13 47,161
Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale could only pull in a consistent 40,000-60,000 which was about the same range as the regular series at the time.
Jim Lee's issues were still selling in the 100,000s.
You haven't explained why you think it's "idiotic" when the facts are right in front of you.
>>82528947
>the facts meme
You're presenting the facts without any context. You didn't even respond to the meat of my post:
It has nothing to do with Lee, it's because Hush was Loeb's return to Batman after the massively popular and universally praised Long Halloween / Dark Victory.
Irvin Kershner isn't a bigger draw than George Lucas because ESB made more money than ANH.
>>82529003
Very few people care about a hack like Loeb. Here's a better comparison, the Azzarello/Lee issues of Superman. The month before: 83,096
Debut issue: Superman 204 231,424
Last issue Superman 215 112,574
The following month: Superman 216 70,193
There's no way you can possibly believe Azzarello's name value got it up to those massive numbers.
>>82529084
Huh...I think I'm actually pretty convinced now. Good arguing anon.
>>82528813
> I think the sales increase was partly Loeb, partly Lee, and partly "ooh big hyped event"
"ooh big hyped event" didn't mean much back then for Batman prior to Hush. Remember Bruce Wayne Murderer? The only issue that did far better than Hush was the 10 cent Adventure (had orders around 700,000), and that was only because the book cost 10 cents. The other chapters sold about as well as they did before the event.
Batman #599: 50,673
Batman: Gotham Knights #25: 42,920
Detective Comics #766 : 53,247
And parts of Bruce Wayne Fugitive:
Batman #600: 57,113
Batman #601: 51,647
Detective Comics #768: 44,355
And Loeb/Sale only sold slightly higher than the regular series at the time. Not in the way that Loeb/Lee did.
Who would win on an asian martial arts duel, Jim Lee or Frank Cho?
>>82529178
Cho. Is this really a question?
>>82526095
Moore should draw some of his own comics, his drawing style would be great for his writing
>>82529003
Except the context is there. Loeb and Sale did a sequel to Long Halloween. By your logic Dark Victory should have sold as well as Jim Lee's Batman. But it sold only about as well as the Batman ongoing at the time.
And "universally praised" means nothing. Long Halloween and Dark Victory are much better stories than Hush (even though they've got flaws), but being better doesn't always translate into sales.
>>82528141
Not a fan of Bagley's art myself, but I can't deny his professionalism. One of the reasons he's stuck around for so long is because he makes his deadlines and is very easy to work with, from what I gather. Also had the good fortune to attend a panel that had him as one of the featured guests and he came off as a real down-to-earth and amiable guy.
>>82529003
>>82528686
>>82524422
Are you that inept at arguing or are you "pretending to be retarded?"
