You know, the whole "Hollywood doesn't get Superman" meme has me thinking: is the crux of the problem that Superman's primary motivation is altruism?
If you think about it, he's sort of unique in that regard, with the possible exception of Captain America. He doesn't have a terrible tragedy in his past. He wasn't sent on a mission by some higher power. He isn't being goaded or tricked or manipulated or anything like that. He does the right thing and he saves the day because he was raised to do the right thing, and using his powers to help people is the right thing to do.
It's so simple, but people keep fucking it up. Is the very simplicity of it the thing that makes them stumble? Is it just that HARD to imagine someone doing good for its own sake?
>>82515085
>He doesn't have a terrible tragedy in his past.
His entire planet blew up.
>not mah superman
>>82515085
>He wasn't sent on a mission by some higher power
That depends on how his dad's being written.
Focus groups react better to angsty heroes, so that's what the studios go with.My personal favorite portrayal of Superman is as a regular guy who just happens to be Superman. Never liked the shining gold messiah angle.
>>82515156
stop. this didn't affect him as he had nothing to do with it
Superman is unbelievably righteous. That's it. Any normie tasked with making a compelling narrative around him would throw the extreme righteousness out to make him more down to Earth.
For example, Snyder couldn't understand why Superman was so averse to killing people, so he decided to end MoS with Superman being forced to kill the last other member of his species. Snyder thought the trauma might explain Superman's character.
>>82515085
>is the crux of the problem that Superman's primary motivation is altruism?
No its literally just scripts and directors ranging from mediocre to total crap
>>82515216
Except it's been done before? All the iconic Superman stories have him being him.
>>82515170
This, basically Clark Kent as he was in Superman: The Animated Series
>in the end the world didn't need a Superman, just a brave one.
>>82515360
And? I never said it was the right way. I just described how normies approach such a character.
>>82515200
His birth parents, his species, and his entire culture were still lost to him. He was an orphan that was fortunate enough to be adopted as an infant, but that's still pretty damn tragic.
>>82515200
Depends on the story
>>82515200
ok then, how would you feel if i shipped you off to mars and then the earth blew up?
doesnt matter if your a baby or not losing someplace you belong is heartbreaking
>>82515216
>Superman is unbelievably righteous
Not even this.
A good Superman would have serious trouble fighting a foe when Lois or Ma Kent were in trouble. He'd feel serious pain at the idea.
That's believable.
Superman's whole schtick is that he's a god damned farmboy.
There's a story about a farmer in Canada. I can't say about the American farm states, but I can say about the Canadian ones. There was a farmer who knew a storm was coming. He put away his livestock, but his neighbour on the next farm over couldn't put them away in time.
So he trucked through the burgeoning storm to help him.
Why?
Because neighbours help each other.
That's Superman. Everyone is Superman's neighbour.
Yeah, he has some weaknesses. He's just a man after all.
But if there's a choice between sitting at home when a storm blows through, and going out and helping someone who needs it.
He'll always help.
That's Superman.
That's what Snyder missed.
>>82515085
People keep fucking it up BECAUSE it's so simple. Writers and studios don't think audiences will respond to a character who is, at their core, a good person.
But you can see this trend filter into DC. Their characters were, for the longest time, bland and had the same personality. Everyone was "Chum" and "Pal" with each other.
Barry Allen used to be a hero because he had powers and idolized heroism. Now he's a hero because he was traumatized as a child by a mystery he couldn't solve.
Think about it, Geoff Johns' entire career comes down to "Character A" meets "Trauma B" and the entire run will focus around that particular trauma. And he's in charge of DC/WB's media out in the world. That's why the Flash movie has the exact same (rumored) plot; it's the only motivation that makes Barry "interesting".
Superman isn't interesting because in the age of Game of Thrones and Sopranos, studios don't believe that audiences will believe in pure goodness. And, a lot of people, don't believe in pure goodness. Zach Snyder doesn't, David Goyer doesn't and, maybe, to some degree, Christopher Nolan doesn't.
I blame Watchmen and DKR. But there you are.
>>82515530
The truly ironic part is that in an age where we are inundated by characters driven by personal tradgedy of some kind who have this complex and angsty backstory, a story like Superman a man who has a great tragedy in his backstory but it is irrelevant to who he is as a person and why he does what he does makes for a very refreshing and compelling character. Just like deadpool flipped the superhero origin story movie on it's head, Superman had that potential if they pulled their heads out of their own asses long enough to drop the pretense and embrace the core of what Superman. an Ideal, not a messiah, not a savior who angsts with the burden of protecting the world, not a man without a world, Superman is just a dude from Kansas who happened to be adopted from a dead world, has incredible power and wants to do good with it.
Shit, making that the central conflict, people refusing to believe Superman's altruism while Lex Luthor propagandizes would've been a great plot. Superman doesn't need to have personal angst in his life. He can be a simple, kind person who does the right thing because it's the right thing and it's probably do really well. and today it would work because nobody else was doing it. the opposite of what DKR and Watchmen were all about
>>82515530
But Mos's Clark was absolutely a good person at his core.
Virtually everything he did (minus trashing the trucker's truck) was out of concern for other people.
Even letting his dad die was out of concern for the global ramifications of his reveal.
Just because he wasn't bright, joyful & smiling 99% of the time doesn't make him less of a good person.
>>82515369
Dan Turpin movie when?
>>82515085
I've noticed it's very rare for current media to take a good-natured person and play it unironically/without cynicism. It's "cooler" to parody the idea or deconstruct it or something.
>>82515671
>an Ideal, not a messiah, not a savior
Why are these incompatible to you?
>who angsts with the burden of protecting the world,
He angst not over helping but with the bad that comes with it.
>>82515085
>He isn't being goaded or tricked or manipulated or anything like that. He does the right thing and he saves the day because he was raised to do the right thing, and using his powers to help people is the right thing to do.
>someone doing good for its own sake
But, the Superman in the movies does exactly that, and people still harp on him for being edgy.
I mean, I'm just going to get a "Snyder, pls", but I honestly think BvS Superman is just like that, a good man trying to do a good thing, and it sort of baffles me when people don't see it.
>>82515085
>Is the very simplicity of it the thing that makes them stumble? Is it just that HARD to imagine someone doing good for its own sake?
Have you seen every director talk about this? It's not just a meme in the sense of some inane idea exaggerated. It's literally how they all think. They're incapable of wrapping their head around a hero that isn't defined by tragedy or trauma, or motivated by vengeance.
And no disrespect to Captain America, but he is a soldier. His origins are tied to military action, e.g. World War 2. Superman is a vigilante, since he derives no authority du jure.
What Superman needs is one journeyman director, a comic writer in DC's stable, and one competent screenwriter to turn the comic guy's story into something you can actually film.
>>82515085
Mark Waid already wrote the perfect Superman movie. It's called Birthright.
>>82515798
Who does Turpin team up with? Bullock or Montoya?
>>82515870
>I honestly think BvS Superman is just like that, a good man trying to do a good thing, and it sort of baffles me when people don't see it.
That's why I got too. I'd be pretty frustrated too if I was doing all I could to help people, but all it did was cause more controversy about me.
>>82515530
>Bringing up Game of Thrones
It's ironic you metion that since the Starks are still far and away the most popular house, and Jon Snow is the most popular character
>>82515882
Fat chance dude. Supes already has 3 fucking reboots and there's no way WB is gonna stop the DCCU, no mather how much it fucking sucks. We are just gonna have to dealt with this cancer.
>>82515870
>"We have always created icons in our own image. What we've done is we project ourselves onto him. The Fact is, maybe he's not some sort of devil or Jesus character. Maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing."
Say what you will about the movie, but I really like this line.
>>82515976
And yet the writers don't get that.
>>82515882
sure, cap is a soldier, but even his motivations for joining the army were pure- he simply wanted to do anything he could for his country
>>82515844
Whenever a creative hears "messiah" they just can't stop doing The Garden at Gethsemane over and over again.
Snyder totally views Superman as a Christ-figure, but to him that means he must be tormented, betrayed, and killed because humanity is just that shit.
The ideal of Superman is a man who only does good, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because he wants to inspire us to do good as well.
There is nothing in recent DC movies you could call "inspirational"
>>82515455
Well if I grew up in a mildly comfortable environment with nice Martian parents who make me feel that I belong I probably wouldn't give half of a shit.
>>82516016
I don't think that's an issue if you try hard enough. It's not unsalvageable, and worst case scenario, I don't think anybody would care about casually discarding all the shit that wasn't working.
>>82516035
I think it's partially because people forget that "is a fundamentally good person" doesn't mean "has no flaws" or "never fails"
>>82515798
I like to think Stabler played a military version of him in MoS.
He's a near-invincible fictional character with a convenient sense of righteousness that almost always gets his way, makes billions in profit, and is an icon of an entire subgenre.
Plus, he has many different iterations and stories to choose from over the past 70 years.
Why do you people whine about the same things over and over again?
>>82516071
Superfrank?
>>82516069
>Martian parents
What would it be like to be raised by jobbers?
>>82515520
>canadian farmers
what the fuck do people farm in canada? pinecones?
>>82515844
My point is I don't want them to be. Superman doesn't need to be a fucking Jesus allegory. Superman can just be a really good person who wants to use his powers to help everyone. Not some dour, atlas messiah who must bear the sins of the world upon his shoulder type. Superman can just be a man who does good because it's the right thing to do without all these implications about gods and men and saviors and the highminded religious spiritualist allegorical bullshit that's constantly attached to him.
I'm sick of seeing Superman being angsty over anything because he's fucking Superman. Spider-man can be angsty, Batman can be Angsty, Let them, But not Superman. Dilemnas? Sure, But let him be just a man who is Superman.
>>82516117
Should've just removed all the El vs Zod bs and made it a Guardian movie with Faora as the sultry antagonist.
>supesfags still think that just because he's written to be liked by people he must be liked by people in the real world
He's a damn fictional franchise character who is at the whim of whoever is on DC's payroll.
It's country guy trying to do the right thing with great power. Cut the Jesus shit. Cut the brooding. Don't have him murder. Let him be fun, whimsical, and corny. Why is that so hard to write?
Superman is a dad for everybody. Like a dad, sometimes he hits hard times. But like a dad, he does not take the easy way out.
>>82515156
Yeah but that's not really his motivation. It's part of his background but not really why he's motivated to do superheroics.
>>82516024
That entire montage with Charlie Rose and Black Science Man was my personal favorite in the movie. It asks a lot of questions that really need some thinking before giving an answer
>>82516071
They already invisted way too much into this. And they got enough back to not declare it a failure.
>>82516175
Canada actually was like the breadbasket of Britania.
>>82516273
Everyone's got daddy issues these days. That's why.
>>82516300
Let's keep this Superman dead and get another one from a parallel universe that isn't such a downer.
>>82515907
Montoya. And she keeps asking annoyingquestions
>>82516175
Same exact grains and livestock that Americans farm.
>>82515671
>Shit, making that the central conflict, people refusing to believe Superman's altruism while Lex Luthor propagandizes would've been a great plot
So batman vs superman?
>>82516287
True, it's not his main motivation, but it's still a tragedy.
>>82516054
>Snyder totally views Superman as a Christ-figure
Disagree.
I think he used the Christ imagery to imply his potential but contrasted it with the reality that he is a fallible conflicted youth who is prone to rage & spite while still yearning to do great things and so strives past his own flaws.
>There is nothing in recent DC movies you could call "inspirational"
--Clark holding onto DD despite seeing the nuke coming.
--Clark accepting this world as his home and sacrificing himself to stop DD.
--Clark going out to the world engine despite knowing he would be weaker around it.
--Clark rising up and taking out the engine at the same time Perry & the sports guy stay and accept death before abandoning Jenny.
--Clark turning himself over to the miltary to be turned over to Zod.
--Hardy's "good death"
>>82516540
The trouble is that Superman is barely a character in his own movie.
I was INFURIATED when the fucking bomb went off in the Senate chamber before he even opened his mouth. Let him talk, Zack!
>>82515085
It's because people hate heroism nowadays, anon.
Celebrities, heroes, etc all have to be torn down and destroyed because we can't stand the idea of someone being good.
People consider Lex Luthor more of a role model than Superman
>>82515520
>That's what Snyder missed.
More like didn't care to see/went out of his way to avoid, any minimum amount of reseach about Superman would tell you "Superman's a great guy who helps people because he loves to do what's right". I don't think the problem is that Snyder doesn't "get" Superman, it's that he hates Superman.
>>82515520
>There was a farmer who knew a storm was coming. He put away his livestock, but his neighbour on the next farm over couldn't put them away in time.
So he trucked through the burgeoning storm to help him.
And he died in the storm while saving the neighbor's dog.
>>82516563
None of that was inspirational.
>>82516540
It was weird but when I saw BvS it didn't come across that Superman WANTED to be doing all that shit. From his dour expression, constant melancholic music, and general personality, he didn't seem like he was doing it because it was the right thing but because he had to, because he had the superpowers. It felt much more like the early, reluctant Spider-Man the whole great power and great responsibility deal.
He came across, and again this was just my watching of the film, as almost forced into his role as a hero by the way his heroics were portrayed. Shit the whole montage of him saving people should have been this great fanfare of him rushing in to save the day but we get dim and washed out imagery with him coming from on high with just a blank expression on his face. Most of the movie it just seemed like he wanted to chill with Lois, which the crazy part is that isn't out of character for Superman! Him wanting to just have a normal life with Lois is a big one, at least more recent Superman, and that would be fine. And yes he does feel go out help people, but not out of a sense of guilt or external obligation but from his own morality. He wants to help people with his gifts, he feels he needs to, but across the whole movie he doesn't come across as WANTING to.
The awful thing is, all the stuff in the movie on paper makes sense, the lines they say, the actions they do, but they are presented in such a lacking way that it comes across all wrong.
>>82516550
Indeed, a tragedy he learns of much later in his life, that informs what he does with his life but wasn't not a character building moment for him.
Bruce Wayne saw his parents die when he was very young and was scarred by that experience very personally. Clark Kent learned when he was 19 or 20 that he's an alien and his planet was destroyed. That certainly gives him a very unique perspective on life and will lead him to do things to learn more about it but the person that is Clark Kent was already established by that point.
>>82516175
Man you should come to Canada sometime, we have a beautiful country.
>>82516913
I still haven't gotten around to watching BvS, but did they ever fix how alien Clark acted in MoS? A bunch of his scenes made it feel like it was his first day on Earth, putting everything alien about him at the forefront of his character, instead of having him act like a normal, well-adjusted human who's been on Earth for most of his lifetime.
>>82515156
Oh wow, he lost a planet he never knew, how tragic, so sad!
He isn't even the last of is species so cry me a fucking river.
>>82517207
>putting everything alien about him at the forefront of his character
That wasn't something to fix, that was the entire point, that this dour realistic cynical world has forced him to alienate himself from the world for both his own and their own good.
>>82517357
Ew, I don't like that aesop
>>82517357
Shit bro, "this dour realistic cynical world" has people that act like Clark Kent is typically portrayed all over. Clark Kent's earnest, good-natured farmboy personality exists, there are people just like him living right now, but for some reason that's just too outlandish so we have to make Clark Kent a standoffish sadsack? That's some shit.
Altruism is impossible and when you try or pretend to be altruist, shit like Red Son and Mastermen happens.
Snyder's objectivist Superman in BvS is the best Superman. I really want to see Superman as a super saiyan John Galt in the Justice League movies now.
>>82517469
Objectivists are literal cancer. They should all be sent to Somalia.
>>82516991
trump wants to build the wall on the wrong border
Take altruism too far and you get places like /co/mblr and leftists in general who are such bleeding hearts they are blind to all reason and facts and think purely based on emotion ie let all migrants into this country because helping people in need is the right thing to do. A superhero like that is terrifying because they can do so much damage through good intent.
>>82518086
Gonna have to disagree with you there. Tumblr uses ethos as it's guiding light, and want to enact change based on that.
Super-altruist (in this case) just wants to help people any way that they can, not force them to change.
I do agree that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I just see Superman as the friendliest guy, who'd give you the shirt off of his back, not a 'for the greater good' kind of guy.
S:TAS, not Injustice.
>>82517632
Great, then I'll enjoy the best internet services in Africa while making money with bitcoins.
Also, fuck off, fucking commie.
>>82517300
Shut up, Bruce.
/co/'s favorite writerMax Landisnailed it. Clark is just a guy who was blessed with incredible godlike powers and feels like he should use these powers for good. He didn't need a tragedy. His mother didn't need to be murdered by a time traveling monster. His parents didn' need to be shot by a two-bit scumbag. Wonder-Woman is similar in this regard, unless you take being a rape baby as tragedy
>>82519217
>/co/'s favorite writer Max Landis nailed it.
As much as I dislike the guy in general he fucking gets Superman.
>mfw Max Landis is literally the only hollywood type I've ever heard that actually understands Superman
>mfw he's probably the only writer in hollywood who could write a good Superman movie
May God have mercy on our souls.
>>82515156
>My parents I never knew died and the place I have no memories of no longer exist
>I also got a great childhood with a happy couple that took care for me
Yep, the greatest tragedy of all.
My family escaped to America from a shithole country and my father died little after I was born. I would love to had my father when I grew up but I can't say I miss him or feel anything about him since I never met him, my mother get sad every time she hears bad news about that shithole country but I personally could not give a fuck about that place or anyone living there as I have no emotional investment for it.
The planet exploding could only be a tragedy to a kryptonian who got to live it.
>>82519502
>in a better world, Landis adapts American Alien to the big screen while Snyder continues making music videos in obscurity
Clearly this is God's punishment.
>>82520149
No, superman is a grimdark edgelord frat boy dudebro. I know this because I saw 3 panels.
>>82520192
In American Alien*
>>82515170
>a regular guy who just happens to be Superman
no regular guy with such powers would do what superman does for a long time. There has always been contradictions on how sup-fags describe superman. No full-time hero who has been a hero for years is just a normal person, any normal person would just break at some point. No normal person could just deal with this amount of power and his role as being an alien, outsider in this world. Full-time heroes have always been beyond normal persons because their powers and lives as heroes have an influence on their personality and superman has been like this since he was born, also there is no way people would ever stop fearing superman or think of him as something higher as themselfs, even if they say he is a real human bean who belong to this world, everyone knows this isn't and can't be true, it would be a balance act between fear and worshipping that easily could tilt in one or the other direction. Keeping this balance would increasingly limit superman in his actions, he'd have to be cautious all the time for example not to get as much as mad as normal humans are allowed to be, he'd be under constant pressure if he was anything like a normal human being.
Sup-fags always want their idealized version of superman yet they claim he is somehow a normal guy from Kansas and then they wonder why people find their version boring. Just admit you want your idealized superman in an idealized world, maybe then you'll understand why people don't care about that version.
Also of course superman works in the comics after so many years because enough characters who are stronger than him have been introduced but in the movie-verse, in his first appearances everyone can see the obvious differences between superman and a normal human bean.
>>82515798
He could be a pretty good introduction to the Fourth World, as a set up movie for JL. Sort of him and other normals being affected by a hidden war between gods raging on Earth. Jimmy's dead, so he can't be the audience insert anymore.
>>82515085
It's a polarizing thing, maybe. To me, that's the reason I like him. As Ma Kent said, "You don't owe this world a thing", but he decides to give anyway. That's Superman.
>>82515085
Because producers are to Jewish and have never done anything altruistic in their lives without large sums of money attached.
>>82516600
It's been that way forever, though. Hell, read the Natural. It's brutal.
But you know what Hollywood did? They turned it into a god damned inspiration instead of soul sucking agony.
The MCU, especially Captain America, is living proof that people do like "gee, golly" heroes.
>>82515085
It's like the people in charge can't understand that someone would help people just because they're a good person.
>>82515827
Like the "Language." line in AoU. Cap has to be a joke for being a boy scout.
>>82521163
But then Civil War, The Winter Soldier and First Avenger all played him straight.
In fact they even mocked Stark's cynicism whenhe thought Cap would kill him, only for Cap to prove him wrong and simply ending the fight.
Whedon is a hack.
>>82519826
What country?
>>82515085
For some strange reason Altruism is at complete odds with capitalism. It makes no sense for superman to exist as iconic good in today's market.
>>82515156
Only one that can play that card is Kara.poor kara
>>82521360
Bullshit, private property doesn't preclude morals. Stop with this meme.
>>82515085
>It's so simple, but people keep fucking it up
What people? Zack Snyder? Because before him we had Donner's movies, the admittedly weak Returns, and on TV stuff like Smallville or TAS, and they all got the character right even if you can't call any of them masterpieces of their own medium
>>82521477
private property=/=capitalism
>>82520412
You're taking the term "regular guy" way too literally. The point of "regular guy who happens to be superman" is that he's a farmboy from Kansas, with as normal an upbringing as an alien with the powers of a god can possibly have. He doesn't have a tragedy to convince him he needs to be a force of good. He just believes that he should use his powers for good, any way he can.
Now, I'm not like most people, in that I feel like Superman would kill threats big enough to destroy Earth. He'd kill Zod, and he did. He'd Kill Doomsday, and he did. If he could, he'd kill Darkseid. But he wouldn't kill Metallo, or Lex, or Kryptonite Man, or Parasite, and so on.
As for an "ideal" superman, he just has to be more upbeat. He doesn't have to be the Donner Superman, or All-Star Superman. He just has to be more positive and upbeat than his current self in the Snyderverse. There were flashes of it in the movies, and at the end of MoS it looked like it was going in that direction. But we didn't really get that in BvS, and I think that's because we got BvS. We should have not gotten BvS, at all. It was a plot that shouldn't have existed at the time it did. The world was barely established, and they threw the "Heroes fight each other" at us. They should've waited until the fucking world was built. Waited until Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Batman, and a JL movie at the least before giving us a Batman vs Superman movie.
>>82521570
Capitalism is using private property and private investment to achieve a gain, a profit.
There is nothing immoral about that, the ends aren't bad, the only argument you could use is that people sometimes use immoral means to achieve these ends, but then again the same happens for collectivist systems. Thus the fault is not in the concept but in what people make of it, not so different from socialism.
This is also why balanced systems with power descentralized usually result in fairer outcomes.
>>82516188
.Superman can just be a man who does good because it's the right thing to do without all these implications about gods and men and saviors and the highminded religious spiritualist allegorical bullshit that's constantly attached to him.
But the very point of the jesus allegories are that he HATES THEM. How the fuck can so many people miss this? That's exactly why he's a dour little bitch. He wants to be normal and meanwhile people like Luthor and Wayne consider him Lucifer incarnate while anyone he saves seems to want to worship him.
He just wants a "thanks" at most instead of all of the conversation about him. He hates that he can't just save people and not be debated.
You're quite literally asking for the Superman you received only you're saying you want the world to see him as a global friend. Which is by far the most fictional piece of any superman story. Half the world would fucking hate the guy.
>>82521785
>nothing immoral about that, only with means
A system that can result in "you won't get the medicine we have right in this building to survive because your business went bankrupt, tough luck" is immoral.
>>82521811
Do you know when Superman gets to be normal?
When he's CLARK KENT
>>82521827
Well tragically there has not been a system that says "Hey, despite the fact that you cannot possibly afford this, here you go!"
Sorry, there is, but it takes 9-12 months, and you have 3 months to live
>>82521855
he's always clark kent though
it's just that clark kent has superpowers
clark kent, not kal el
kal el never came to be
>>82516600
I don't like people who are literally bulletproof taking moral high ground over me. Easy for Superman to find a way, he's not mushy and vulnerable to bullets like the rest of us.
>>82521875
>He's always Clark Kent
No, he's not. There are times when he's Clark Kent, reporter for the Daily Planet, Real Human Being. Then there are times where he's Superman, the savior or downfall to everyone depending on who you ask.
>>82521827
>I don't contribute to society enough to earn my medicine
>I will force someone else to pay for it because despite being a net loss for humanity I deserve to live
Now this is immoral
>>82521827
We have socialised healthcare and people don't get treatment anyway because apparently the government isn't adept at tackling every problem directly.
>capitalism means you can't have health care
That is again, not a direct result of capitalism. Even Sweden is still a capitalist country you dingus, capitalism isn't a single model aside from the basic concept.
>>82521886
So if say, Steve down the block had the exact same morals, you'd be fine. But because Superman was blessed you're against it.
>>82521874
What you're saying doesn't refute my point.
Superman is a wish fulfillment character for people that want a surrogate father figure. Any time you see someone post "this is how he should be," it's Superman acting out the fantasy of a perfect male role model that has the power and moral authority to be invulnerable to anything and inspire anything. Basically, "daddy" to a little kid.
The reason he doesn't work well for cinema is because that audience isn't very common, and there's no real story to build around. Plus the writers who love Superman tend to revere him so much naturally that they never realize they need to craft that feeling in the audience. Which they never do.
>>82521922
Okay then, how is this
A system cannot be moral or immoral because a system is incapable of such things. It's a system, nothing more, nothing less.
>>82521896
So he is a god who pretends to be human for fun.
>>82521874
And is a system that says "no matter how much effort you put in you deserve the same as everyone else as your outcome" fair? Or one that leads to unstable economies due to central planning and inevitable shortages.
t. Ask venezuela
>>82521914
>capitalism means you can't have health care
you can have health care in spite of having capitalism, but there is nothing within the concept of capitalism that promotes the concept of free healthcare
>>82521909
yes anon, human life > profits
I know, shocking
and the value of human life isn't related to how productive the life in question is
>>82517469
>Objectivist super saiyan John Galt
Oh boy
>>82521939
If you want the shittest possible explanation, sure. Superman is just a god who knows he's a god and acts like a human because it amuses him.
>>82521947
There's 9 billions of nake apes on the planet and most of them are worthless. The market for human life is oversaturated.
>>82521922
What is your point? You are making assumptions of other things based on a basic concept.
It's like assuming all christians are coptic christians, or that all muslims are shia, or that every asian nation speaks japanese.
You are adding info that isn't there.>>82521947
>>82521963
You are literally sounding like a saturday morning cartoon villain.
I'm pretty sure the exact line you posted has been said by a person who frequently goes mwahahahahah.
This isn't good.
>>82521947
It would be morally wrong if it actively meant "healthcare is bad", that is not what the definition says.
If it doesn't actively defend/propose wrong acts then it's not immoral.
>>82521916
Steve down the block with moral of Superman is a naive fool who will learn a valuable lesson first time he meet any adversity.
Superman with those morals is a sanctimonious cunt. Well, not Superman, who is not real, the creator who thinks that moral stance that require bulletproof skin and flight and superstrength and shit to defend is any good.
>>82522000
Dude, you just cut me.
>>82520412
>no regular guy with such powers would do what superman does for a long time.
So cops, firefighters, and EMTs that do their jobs for years aren't regular guys?
Hell, if you want to do a movie about a Superman that's been around for years and is starting to feel a little burnt out, I'm all for that. DCAU pretty much did that and it was awesome.
Snyderman STARTS as a burn out.
>>82521969
I said that a system X who lets people die for not being rich is immoral. You told me we haven't been able to find a good system that fixes that.
That doesn't make X less immoral.
Also, failure of redistribution of wealth through taxation is more a matter of will than competence, imo, but that's a different topic.
>>82521981
He isn't wrong that many people aren't worthwhile (say a large portion of criminals)
That doesn't mean they should be stomped on and have their rights disregarded, so yes he sounds cartoonish
>>82522019
a system cannot be immoral. A person can be immoral. if a system can have or lack morals, than so can a car, or a door, or a turkey club sandwich.
>>82522016
I mean, come onit's 2016when your peaceful solution requires things Superman has you aren't really making a usable point.
>>82522034
Are you saying that if Clark Kent was at the same level of say... Batman, that he would not hold the same views?
>>82521811
Because he doesn't hate them enough to say a single thing to stop them and his frowning during them doesn't stop the camera from doing it.
That's what YOU keep missing. The whole "People in universe treat Clark like a savior" thing falls apart when he's doing a crucifix pose in space in the last movie with no one there to see it. That's not people treating Clark as a Jesus stand in, that's the DIRECTOR doing it, without regards to the context. It screws up the idea that it's an in universe thing when it happens all the time like that.
>>82521855
Are you the same anon I replied to there? Because if so you don't even know what the fuck you're arguing any more.
I didn't say he longed to be normal. That's what Tom Welling did. I said he longed to be able to save people without the debate.
He doesn't want to seen as a god or a demon; he just wants to save people.
MOS and BvS gave you the Superman you want. It's the world around him that you don't want. You want Silver Age simplicity. Superman is good, people are innocent, and Superman must protect the innocent from the Bad. In turn the innocent love Superman. That's what you said, whether you realize it or not.
As for this retarded reply, >>82521855: you are aware that that is referred to as Schizophrenia? He's Clark Kent with an alter ego. The two are the same. He doesn't think or believe he's anyone other than Clark.
>>82522031
Are you really going to make me retype what I said exchanging "capitalism" is immoral with "establishing/promoting capitalism is immoral"?
Aren't we able to understand what's implied without needing to waste our time like this?
Also, I have a question.
A person can be immoral.
I'd say though an action can be immoral too, though.
Isn't a system like an action? A set of actions?
>>82522052
You take everything you read way to literal, anon. I did not suggest that he has two personaliities, or was a schizo. When he's not wearing the cape, nobody knows who he is. He blends in. He's just a guy. that's when he's normal. You fucking genius.
>>82522049
Again, you're projecting what you think Snyder views Superman as onto the character. Superman wasn't posing, he was fucking tapped out for the moment (and dead in the final bible allegory of him being taken down from the cross).
How Snyder presents the character shows his view, or the view he wants the audience to hold. Not the view the character holds. The character quite clearly hates the religious shit just as much as fucking the internet.
>>82522034
Superman frequently fights dudes in his weight class, or greater, and often ends up depowered or otherwise handicapped.
A large part of the way people who like Superman's morality symbolism read him has to do with how the grandeur and larger than life nature of what Superman can do maps on to ordinary problems. Yeah, Superman doesn't have much to fear from a bullet, but a kryptonite death ray could get him good. Dude literally got punched to death once. And yet, he still goes into danger and still advocates a perspective on life that does not give into fear and despair about what could hurt you. In many ways, Superman has more to fear than many mortal men because of the life he leads (And the narrative circumstances of his character and universe).
People who think Superman is unrelatable just because he has super powers miss that the emotion and danger of situations is relative. Superman is super powered, but so are the problems he faces. People have to deal with their personal individuality and the larger, almost alien seeming, mob nature of the aggregate rest of humanity. Superman fought a space god of despair with a magic equation that turned nearly everyone on earth into some kind of psychological extension of that space god. Everything is relative.
>>82515085
>He doesn't have a terrible tragedy in his past
RIght? It's not like his parents together with his entire planet are DEAD.
>>82522115
Which all happened before he could perceive things, and then he learned about it DECADES LATER
>>82522126
Yeah, it's a big mistake to make superman learn about krypton before he becomes a superhero
>>82522019>>82522019
>it's immoral despite not directly causing harm
If I say I am against murder does that mean I defend rape? It's what you are saying.
The system says something, whatever else you tackle on it is putting things on top of what the system deals with.
A model of planetary orbits doesn't need to deal with planetary atmospheric composition, get it? But if it doesn't then you can't say it get planetary atmospherics wrong because it simply doesn't get into that.
If you add the right things to the capitalist model then suddenly it deals with all the stuff you are saying, meaning again, capitalism isn't evil.
>>82522057
Again:
If I say I am against murder it doesn't mean I am pro rape.
The system is one thing, you are assuming that capitalism is evil because it doesn't specifically make notes about something, but all it says is "X". If I add Y to X then it's still capitalism, and say the Y deals with the problems you raised, does that mean that this capitalism is still evil?
You are basically saying private owenrship/investment and profit are mutually exclusive with say socialized healthcare. That is beyond retarded.
>>82522084
>Again, you're projecting what you think Snyder views Superman as onto the character
You can't pull death of the author when Snyder keeps telling us his views.
> Superman wasn't posing, he was fucking tapped out for the moment
Are you sure we're thinking of the same scene? Because I'm not talking about something from BvS there.
>How Snyder presents the character shows his view, or the view he wants the audience to hold. Not the view the character holds.
Fucking hell are you really not getting what I'm saying. I KNOW. THAT IS MY POINT. IF THE CHARACTER HOLDS A VIEW COUNTER TO THE INSISTENT PRESENTATION BOTH WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE NARRATIVE AND ITS METATEXTUAL TRAPPINGS AND VISUAL FRAMEWORK THEN SNYDER NEEDS TO ESTABLISH IT IN A WAY GREATER THAN HIM FROWNING A LOT OR IT HAS NEXT TO NO MEANING.
>>82516069
You would. All orphans have the desire to know where they came from. Imagine an orphan who learned he wasn't even human.
>>82522164
You're reducing capitalism simply to private property.
>>82522057
One more thing:
The set of actions that capitalism defends isn't mutually exclusive with any moral choices, and it doesn't say you should pick the immoral ones.
Is the system evil?
How??? Do you think the fact that it doesn't specifically have a rule for every scenario it is evil? Individual's actions or branches of it can be, if they add more onto it like defending immoral actions, but you are trying to expand a subset's characteristics to the whole set.
>>82522167
Not him, but death of the author has nothing to do with the author's actual opinions and our inability/ability to learn them.
>>82522212
>not having a rule for every scenario is evil?
depends on the "ignored" scenario
>>82522017
Do cops and firefighters have enough power to destroy the world? Does a singular cop or firefighter put out all the fires or stop all the crime in the world? Is the whole world watching their every action?
>>82516175
You must be from California to be so retarded.
>>82522207
You're expanding capitalism from private property and investment with ends of profit.
Use object oriented programming as an idea for what the world is:
Capitalism is a superclass, to which all the subsystems are subclasses, it doesn't mean what applies to the subsystems applies to the supersystem.
You're assuming that a set of actions that doesn't defend immoral behavior is immoral because it doedn't talk about certain immoral behaviors that could be tackled on it, but then is it also moral because you can tackle moral things on it? Your logic makes no sense.
You are trying to say "build house" is evil because it doesn't also say "for everyone", and leaves what else you add to it open ended.
>>82522167
point 1. Snyder says one thing and it becomes "SNYDER FUCKING HATES SUPERMAN!!"
Guys views on supes suck. I agree.
point 2.
You said "in the last movie and I assumed" you meant the most recent, as in BvS. That's my fuck up.
Point 3.
Superman's depressive and dour mood is how it was "established". But people took that as "Superman is an asshole" rather than "he's unhappy with the conversation revolving around him". It was established quite clearly between the Charlie Rose segment and Superman's facial expressions at the same time.
Are you saying you wanted less subtlety? What would have better established his disagreement with how he's being viewed?
>>82522292
Just because Snyder had a mouthpiece say that absolute power corrupts absolutely doesn't make it the case.
And like I said. If you want to do a movie where Superman starts straining under the pressure that's totally okay. It just can't be before we get an actual optimistic happy one or it has no impact. You go from light to dark, going from dark to light is less organic.
Like, right now, people are asking me to believe that Superman, after DYING AND COMING BACK FROM THE DEAD, is going to be treated like less of a god? That he's suddenly going to feel MORE connected with humanity? What sense does that make?
>>82522278
It'a not...
Goddamnit.
Does collectivism say anything about executions without a fair trial? Does that mean collectivism defends mob rule?
You are trying to add specific things it simply doesn't talk about to say it is immoral when what you mean is specific views of it (subsystems) are immoral.
You are trying to say all people have hair because one person does.
Stop.
>>82522335
>"he's unhappy with the conversation revolving around him".
You're still missing the point.
The conversation isn't just around him, it's metatextual. The fact that it is metatextual is the mistake because it removes narrative objectivity.
>>82522328
I think it's disingenuous to put a system that encourages profit seeking and accumulation of resources potentially resulting in someone not having resources to survive on the same level as "you said build house, but not for everyone".
>He does the right thing and he saves the day because he was raised to do the right thing
No, he does what the writers' think is the right thing and he saves the day because that's what the writers' write him to do.
The way Superman fans constantly judge others for not liking a comic book superhero is frightening. You people are a cult.
>>82522366
Lex wasn't a mouthpiece, he was shown to be in the wrong. You can't be a mouthpiece if the movie disagrees with you.
>>82522397
Stop applying specifics to general things. If there are specific forms of capitalism that have a set of rules and ideas that work on the problems you've mentioned then that already proves capitalism is not inherently immoral.
For instance, multiple capitalist people believe that the idea of mutually exclusive profit and resource accumulation on detriment of others are archaic as fuck, based on the idea you will do better in a capitalist system if others are also doing better (see scandinavian social democracies having high economic freedom and also social programs to help people and distribute gains, are they anticapitalist? Antisocialist?)
>>82522379
There is nothing in collectivism that includes factors that can lead to mob rule. It doesn't inherently oppose mob rule, but it doesn't do something to encourage it potentially either.
Capitalism includes factors that can lead to situations where people will starve.
There's a difference between a doesn't always lead to b but can lead to be and a and b can co exist but are unrelated.
If your system intrinsically has factors that can lead to a problematic situation, it's immoral to ignore that specific situation.
That doesn't mean you have to take unrelated to your system immoral situations into account simply because they can happen while your system exists. There's a difference.
>>82519217
>and feels like he should use these powers for good.
Yeah, but why? How does a person get to think like that?
>>82522468
Wasn't talking about Lex.
>>82522335
>What would have better established his disagreement with how he's being viewed?
That page from Secret Origins that I would post were I at my desktop. Or hell, just have him start to give the senate speech.
>>82522502
Parents that aren't shitty enough to walk into a tornado because of irrational paranoia, which is a good thing when they do it and a 100% certainty, but suddenly bad when Batman does it.
>>82522486
Jesus christ, capitalism can lead people to starve and so can collectivism, but it doesn't actively defend that.
You are applying on standard to capitalism and not to collectivism, stop trying to imply that specific things are being defended, the system doesn't say people should starve, it doesn't encourage immoral behavior, people add that to it of their own will.
If it was immoral then it wouldn't have moral branches, ffs. You are basically making assumptions to defend a view instead of looking at it for what it is, you're assuming X->A when X->B could also happen because it's open ended, just like your collectivist example.
>>82515530
Nolan Bats is an actually uplifting and hopeful character pretty much throughout. He lives in a fucked up world and does everything he can to save it.
>Come with me. Save yourself. You don't owe these people any more. You've given them everything
>grr not everything grr not yet
>>82522515
Than who are you talking about?
Batman? Because the movie shows that he was in the wrong too
Senator finch? Same deal.
There is no mouthpiece.
>>82516273
You have greedy Hollywood Jews trying to understand small town values. All these cape flicks are pure cash grabs. Even the idea of what they are doing runs antithesis to Superman. That's why it'll never get done.
Could I kill Superman if I had a magic wand. I mean, it's magic, so I could literally do anything I wanted with it. It doesn't have to make sense.
>>82522567
You're purposely ignoring what I'm saying.
Collectivism and Capitalism can both lead to starvation for many different reasons.
None of those reasons are related to factors that define collectivism.
Some of those reasons are related to factors that define capitalism. Therefore capitalism has to address those factors while collectivism has no factors to address.
>>82519502
Have you seen his Death and Return of Superman pitch? It is more edgy than Snyder's.
>>82522656
*lead, as in because they didn't necessarily take measures to prevent it.
>>82522502
Really good parenting
>>82522656
Collectivism is the collective subjecting the individual, at it's core. You don't see how an extension of that can lead to immoral behavior?
Is this a joke? What world do you live in?
>>82522717
>>82522656
Subjugating*
>>82522502
According to Max, absolute power absolves him from all the wants and needs that regular people have that push them to do selfish or bad things.
>>82522717
Read more carefully. I didn't say immorality, I said starvation. I was talking about starvation, in order to put forth a very clear and fixed example so it could be understood more easily.
If we're talking about collectivism and immorality in general, of course collectivism that doesn't factor in how not to result in crushing the individual is immoral.
Now address the point.
>>82522486
How is a government not having a check against mob rule not the government's fault.
"Well I guess a group of thugs could hold a coup and use our structure to enforce a bloody tyranny for half a century but that's hardly our fault."
For that matter, ask Mao's China if people still starve under collectivist regimes.
>>82522502
People've been saying it all thread. Farmer values.
In a farming community, even if you fucking hate your neighbor, you help him out during a storm. Partially because of a, "It could be me next year not being able to get my stock in." attitude, but for whatever reason its what is expected.
Superman sees the whole world as his neighbor, and has applied that logic to his life as Superman.
>>82522770
>can it?
Yes, a collectivist system thinks of the many over the few.
For instance, diverting food from the population to feed the army during a period of war, letting the people starve to keep the soldiers' rations up.
Collectivism will always prize the group over the individual so yes it can lead to starvation, when resources are scarce or when they are diverted due to a perceived "Greater Necessity", for instance the SU prioritized the urban industrial communities over the rural ones during the ukranian famine.
So yes. It does.
Study history you mong.
>>82515156
>Krypton is a metaphor for post-trump america
>>82522842
You mongrel, I'm referring to the current western world where the existing resources are enough to feed the whole population easily.
Of course in an era/area where rations don't suffice prioritising some over others is necessarily and blind collectivism leads to starvation.
Something that's absolutely irrelevant to us now.
>>82522894
So you are saying we can't apply a specific collectivist context to the whole?
Enlightening! So how do you do the same for capitalism? Oh right. You're a mong.
>current context
Famine in many places is caused more by a governmental corruption and inaction, even in suppsedly socially minded governments' watches.
Africa receives a ton of aid, but almost none of it finds it's way into improving their economy or feeding the people, I wonder why? Do you think the little guy who has his own little family business is happy with that? Of course he is because of all capitalism is immoral so the government-induced starvations are to his benefit and he is happy about it!
>>82522894
So you're just going to ignore the giant famines that resulted from collectivist economic planning.
Okay.
The Potato Famine was genocide.
>>82515200
>>82517300
>>82519826
>>82522864
Krypton blowing up is supposed to be a metaphor for Jewish diaspora in pre-Israel days, you dipshits.
Zod trying to forcibly turn Earth into New Krypton at the cost of lives of natives is metaphor for zionists.
>>82522961
You're still being disingenuous.
Capitalism by definition has factors that can lead to starvation regardless of era/area (unless we're talking about potential alien/future utopias)
Collectivism doesn't have factors that can lead to starvation regardless of era/area. They're not on the same level.
>>82521886
>>82522000
I actually think this is one of his best points.
The way I see it, the majority of individuals in our reality and those from capecomics would be more than happy to use his powers to egoistical means and the like if they were bestowed with such gifts.
But he, standing as one of the strongest, chose to just help people. Not to change things to a state that he thinks it would be righteous, not to push his own ideals, not to make his life easier.
Just help and save people. And why? As stated already in this thread, simply because he's a good person.
A lot of other heroes have pasts and personal motives that made them lean for that side, but Superman, as overpowered as he may be at times, is just an incredible good person who decided to make the hard path all the way without hesitating.
From a mental perspective he's not different from a normal human guy who enters a house on fire to save some strangers.
He will get cats down from trees and then go fight cosmic beings that could kill him.
That's what makes him so special, and I believe sometimes the fact that he got such incredible powers makes that path he chose a lot tougher for him.
Seriously, imagine what it must feel to know that, somewhere up there, there's a guy with godlike powers (to a human) that doesn't think "I have to get those villains" nor "I must protect these people", but instead "I want to help everyone I can". He cares.
People in that universe know this and know how good Superman is, and without realizing it his mere existence inspires them.
I like to think about the JL in a similar way; the reason there's so much variation in power levels is because they don't have to be the strongest, but instead they're a group of people that regardless of their power they try their best for the people.
The Justice League inspires normal people and sets the bar for other heroes to be better.
Superman gives hope to them all.
Hell, sometimes it's even like he's the embodiment of hope himself.
Did anyone else go through a time where they hated Superman and then just one day you loved him?
I remember when I was a teenager I was the typical anti Superman kind of guy. I used all the old arguments, he's overpowered and boring, all that stuff. I don't know why but it's just like one day all of a sudden I got it. It was a thread on /co/ of moments where Superman was just being a good guy and I understood it's not about the powers it's about what he does with them. It feels weird when I think back to hating him desu.
>>82523064
No, it doesn't. The things you are saying apply to all branches don't apply to all, the definition is general not specific, stop trying to pretend your imaginary version of capitalism represents all possible systems built upon the -simple- idea that it is.
What you are doing is like saying the central planning problems of a strong centralized collectivist government unit apply to descentralized microcollectivist units.
The funniest part is you don't even see how the issues you raise don't apply to capitalism in general and only to this fauxcapitalism definition you made up that despite being specific also fits every single possible offshoot, this is master tier delusion.
How can you be this thickheaded?
>>82523233
Just because all possible branches don't lead to an outcome doesn't mean there isn't an intrinsic factor that leads to it.
>>82523201
Guy who posted all that shit above you here. Used to find Superman foolish because of how "easy is for him with those powers" to be a hero and I hated how hypocrite he seemed.
This is mainly because I've always lean towards the supervillain side.
However, as my own ideals of what "evil" must be became more complex, so did my perspective of "good". When I reach the conclusion that both evil and good are necessary sides of the balance of Justice, my opinion about him changed radically and I stopped to see him like an hypocrite.
I understood the same as you, it's not about the powers.
I still root for the evil side, but that doesn't mean I cannot find inspiration in superheroes like him.
>>82523275
You are making a general statement based of specific cases, you're pretending that the property is in the general definition and not on the specifics of implementation.
Collectivism will also lead to subjugation and violence against minority groups right? After all it happens in some instances so it's a general property derived from it's general ideas right? Right??????
If X is a set and property A(X) is false for a single element then A(X) is false. That's it, no debate on that unless you can also shift logic.
I am not even gonna bother anymore. Go on thinking bullshit.
>>82523373
It's not about cases, it's about intrinsic elements. Cases are different despite of the same intrinsic elements due to factors other than the economic system.
>>82523028
>>82523454
Properties are only intrinsic to a group if they are true for every component.
>>82523503
They are true for every component. Every form of capitalism has leading to starvation components. Its just that the end result of whether we have starvation or not is influenced also by other factors than the economic system. That doesn't mean that "starvation leading" wasn't true for every component , it's just that it was blocked by factors outside the economic system.
>>82520818
You realize the concept of the superhero was literally thought up by Jews, right?
>>82523616
Excuse you, other mytholgies have superheroes too
>>82523591
Okay so now you just went into bullshit territory where magically you know every application of the ideology.
It'd be neat if you just admited you are making up rules to justify your belief system.
>>82523634
No.
>>82523661
Capitalism by definition has accumulation of resources for personal profit. That in itself leads to starvation.
>>82523681
Hercules wants a word with you. Zeus technically too.
>>82521909
There's nothing "immoral" about desiring to live and the idea that access to medicine is based on social contribution is inane. A store floor worker is not less valuable than a trust fund kiddie and a middle manager is not more valuable than an engineer.
>>82523709
The added things of expanded capitalist economical models doedn't go as simple as that. Again, you are basically attributing the bad and taking away the good, you're taking one for all and pretending what doesn't fit your mold isn't a valid expansion upon capitalism.
You're about 200 years too late in terms of ideological thought
>>82523730
>Hercules
Demigod. Killed his wife and children, and had to atone for it. One of the inspirations for superheroes, but not himself, a superhero.
>Zeus
God of mythology.
>>82523814
>Demigod
No reason he can't be a hero
>killed wife and children
maddened by a god. still atoned. and saved/helped people on the way
>zeus
saved humanity by sealing off titans and beasts
>>82523801
There is no version of capitalism that doesn't include accumulating resources for personal profit.
>>82515085
Hollywood is operated by shitty selfish fucks. They are more likely than not incapable of conceptualizing altruism and just doing the right thing because its the right thing. That is probably why all you ever here everyone from there say when they talk about Superman is how they've never been able to relate to him. Altruism and just being kind and helpful are on the whole foreign concepts to modern Hollywood which is why when they make a version of the character he looks like what you'd expect Hollywood to portray a social outcast with the power of a god and not like Superman.
>>82523110
To work .. a character must have a clear motivation that allows the viewer to understand the character. Superman is often described too much generic:
"I must protect people"
Yes, but why this obsession?
"Because it is the right thing to do and I have these powers"
NOPE. this is not a reason. This is just a brainwashing inserted into the character by the writer.
The Cinematic Captain America has some strong motivation, he wants an opportunity for himself. And after, he does everything he does to save a friend, one of the few friends who had believed in him before he became Captain America.
The audiance understand why Steve does what he does in WS and Civil war.
But Superman in Snyder movie ( and in many comics too) why is obsessed with saving people? you can't just say just "because it's the right thing to do", because the audiance does not understand that. There must be a greater motivation to push him to use those powers in that way.
Say "Superman is naturally good" is also unreal.:
There may be lots of reasons:
Superman knows that he is an alien, and he's afraid that this will lead people to hate him, fear him, isolate him. He does not want to disappoint his father and his mother ( okey, not in Snyder M, but that work in comic).
He loves the earth and feels indebted
ecc ecc ecc ecc...
It's no coincidence that the best stories of Superman are all those that highlight strong motivation
Look at Alan Moore stories or All Star Superman. Someone will not agree but also "Superman against Elite" is good story because Superman has a clear motivation for opposing Manchester black.
>>82523846
I don't think you fully understand what a superhero is.
>>82521360
Superman is the champion of the American way aka capitalism. Are you a commie?
>>82523201
Kinda the same here
As a kid i never really cared about him, usually avoided TAS. As a teen i then kindasorta followed Smallville, but at the time nor me or my friends ever really saw it as "the Superman show", more like The OC but with superpowers and occasional witches (kek). Funnily enough, we eventually got excited at the idea that Clark could sooner or later finally wear the cape and officially become a superhero, but i guess that was more due to the show costantly teasing stuff like the House of El's symbol on his chest, but it only gave us eternal super-blue balls
Then i eventually fell officially into the "Superman is boring" phase, i saw him as too much of a stereotype, with lame invulnerability, lame laser eyes, lame flying and so on. It's not that i hated the character, but i thought it was a given that he couldn't be interesting
Then the MoS hype came, i saw the movie and i started thinking "wow, Superman's powerset can really be cool". I already had a few problems with the movie, but i was getting invested into the character, so i started reading the recommended books like Moore's or ASS. I don't want to sound like a stereotype, but ASS probably was my turning point, the fairy tale feel finally sold me the character. What i liked about it is basically what Morrison summed up perfectly in a quote i saw posted yesterday
>Superman is still a guy, he walks the dog like any other person, but he does it on an asteroid! He's visited by relatives, but those relatives come from the 31st century!
>>82523978
Superpowered being that does acts of heroism.
>>82522864
THIS
This right here is how every "/pol/ thread" comes into existence.
It's always some smarmy jackass taking potshots at conservative politicians or ideas baiting people to respond causing the whole thread to be derailed.
And then those same people have the gall 100 posts later to complain that "/pol/ is shitposting" if you don't want that to happen stop fucking baiting them and keep your moronic political retorts to yourself.
Stay on fucking topic!
>>82523814
What about Beowulf?
King Arthur?
Siegfried?
>>82515530
Superman is a good man who just happens to be a super-powered alien
Snyder's Superman is a super-powered alien struggling to be a good human for reasons
>>82523946
>Look at Alan Moore stories
Agree
>All Star Superman.
Not really. It has potential for having a man facing his mortality but Morrison want his inspirationa Gary Stu doing the right thing. An idol is inhuman because it can't move from its pedestal.
>Someone will not agree but also "Superman against Elite" is good story because Superman has a clear motivation for opposing Manchester black
Kinda agree. Superman's motivation was pettiness for not being relevant anymore but that's relatable. He was clearly the writer's sel-insert having a stroke for stupid kids don't liking Superman anymore therefore they must be terrible people. He's basically the average superfag
>>82516572
I thought it would be a frame-up job to make the public think Superman blew up congress, but they immediately declared it was a wheelchair bomber!
>>82524121
You know what's the difference between all those heroes and your husbando Superman?
- They all are public domains. I can write a novel about King Arthur saving Camelot by a polyamorous relationship with Lancelot and Guinevere and nobody can stop me. Superman is a property of DC comics
- They all have endings. Beowulf died, King Arthur died, Sigfried died. Superman can't die or have any significant conclusion. He'll be around forever
Superman is closer to Mickey Mouse than mythological heroes
>>82524162
>>All Star Superman.
>Not really. It has potential for having a man facing his mortality but Morrison want his inspirationa Gary Stu doing the right thing. An idol is inhuman because it can't move from its pedestal
You missed my point about All star. The point was that Superman is dying and decides to use that time to close a number of personal issues ( and some not personal issues).
He has fun with Lois, free city in the bottle, talk to Luthor. I'm not talking about what Mirroson had in mind for Superman, but as "a reader" I understand very well why Superman is doing all this.
I feel this important not only for Superman but for every story. It's funny how with Superman, the issue of motivations are always dotted so generic.
>>82524162
>Kinda agree. Superman's motivation was pettiness for not being relevant anymore but that's relatable. He was clearly the writer's sel-insert having a stroke for stupid kids don't liking Superman anymore therefore they must be terrible people. He's basically the average superfag
You seems awfully Fedora Edgy here.
>>82524275
Zeus didn't die.
>>82524121
You're just naming heroes now. Mythological figures don't retroactively become "superheroes" just because they follow one or 2 of the same rules. Superheroes were invented in comic books in the early 1900's. All the tropes that sent into the making of Superman were ones that were available to Seigel and Shuster, including those mythical figures, but also pulp heroes of the era, and heroic science fiction, like Buck Rogers, and the tropes that went into defining superheroes as entities grew out of people emulating the character of Superman.
>>82524336
He's not a mythological hero. He's a god.
>>82524336
No, but Typhon initially defeated him and ripped out his tendons, Prometheus tricked him and allowed humans to get the best pieces of meat when sacrificing, could be petty and jealous, even powerless to save his sons during the Trojan War. That's what always bothers me when people defend Superman by pointing at mythology. Even a huge mary sue like Beowulf died in battle. Mythological heroes often suffered failures and had character flaws, they weren't "pure goodness."
>>82524361
Fagot... Hercules is one of the first "superheroes" of fiction. The concept of heroism was different but Hercules was a narrative figure of extraordinary powers which made extraordinary feats. Achilles was no different. He was a Captain Greece. The whole Trojan War was a story written just to extol the Greeks
>>82524413
>he's a god
so is wonderwoman right now
>>82523872
There are versions that promote taxation on income to create social well being, in return creating more profits as the consumer market grows in size and purchasing power as well as the labour market becomes more skilled, productive and stable.
>what is greedy altruism
Helping your community helps you create a profit AND is a good act, multiple social democracies implement this kind of capitalism.
>>82524557
Oh, so there are versions of capitalism that deal with its intrinsic problems? Thus resulting in those versions not being immoral?
Remind me, how many times did I say that you're immoral, unless you deal with the problems you cause?
>>82524461
You can say it all you want, it doesn't make it true. Hercules served a different function in their stories by the very nature of him being the son of Zeus, and a figure of mythology. That means some people at least, believed he may have been real. Superheroes are fundamentally different than that, as they were created in comic books for entertainment, by New York Jews, and were never intended to be interpreted as part of a governing religious cosmology.
>>82524436
The only reason Superman doesn't die it's because he's a commercial property and it's owners will obviously continue to try make money out of him. There are stories where Superman suffers, fails or dies, simply they're never allowed to be the last word on said character
And what's with this autism, guys? When people say "superheroes are like modern mitologies" of course they only mean that they're the closest parallel: incredible and fictional beings that can (or can't, because of course it depends on the story etc.) inspire people in one way or the other, or can symbolize morals and ideals of their times
Of-fucking-course you can find all the reasons in the world to say "Superman (or whatever) isn't really like a myth!", but that's just pointless blabber to dismiss a simple comparison, nobody said that Superman is *literally* Hercules or Beowulf so nobody gives a fuck if one of those characters did something that Superman didn't
>>82524609
If versions deal with "intrinsic problems" then they are not intrinsic.
Intrinsic applies to the entire group, intrinsic means natural, inherent, common to all of a kind.
You're just moving the goalposts and pretending you were right all allong.
Here pal:
For an object being a concept, concrete or abstract, or an object being a set of other objects
A property Immoral() exists, for a set of objects X = {x1, x2... xn} the property immoral(X) will only flag true if immoral(x1)^immoral(x2)^...^immoral(xn) are also true.
You are making a logically disjointed argument, you are saying something is always immoral, and when it isn't then it just proves you right (???????)
>>82524621
It's true fagot. We privatized fairy tales, but these have always existed with the function of inspiring, and narrating. And Hercules stories were narrated to the greek theater so that people could listen. People thought gods and demigods were alive or not, it does not matter, because the function of these stories is still the same.
>>82524772
>if versions deal with intrinsic problem, they're not intrinsic
you're a moron for two reasons
a)a problem can be shared by all. some can be able to solve it. that doesn't make the problem not shared by all
b)one could argue that in the cases where its solved, it's not solved due to capitalism but due to factors co-existing to this particular form of capitalism
>>82522302
Hey, don't talk shit about California's grasp on farming. They paid a lot of money for ads with crash courses on farmingto take the heat off of almond farmers.
>>82524846
Yeah, to be stories of HEROES. You still don't get why not all heroes are SUPERHEROES, even though I've detailed the hallmarks of the genre, and how it was inspired by what came before it, and why it's different, but you just keep dodging that, in an attempt to define superheroes in the broadest possible terms, to the point the term essentially becomes meaningless. Superheroes are not fairy tales, the aren't folklore or religious epics, they aren't the "hero's journey" monomyth. They've got their own identity, their own expectations of stories, their own iconic medium of creation.
And all this started because someone tried to say some antisemitic bullshit about how Jews don't understand altruism because they don't understand superheroes. So I don't know if this is all some kind of justification for you to tell yourself that the concept of superheroes didn't start in America, in 1933, with a couple of Jewish kids, but it did. Sorry.
>>82516913
Feels superbad, man.
>>82523028
So krypton was really destroyed by space Rome
Neat can't wait to see them
>>82523201
Yeah, I relate to that a little, but It was never that strong, or for a very long period of time, I don't think. I never really tried to be that "edgy" or anything in high school.
>>82515170
>Focus groups react better to angsty heroes, so that's what the studios go with.
He was lonely sometimes as a kid, but that's hardly terrible tragedy.
>>82525901
>>82525911
>>82525924
>>82525937
>>82525951
>>82525958
>>82525975
>>82525981
>>82525995
>>82519826
The fact that you feel no empathy about what happened before you were born does not mean that others wouldn't or shouldn't. This is literally anectodical evidence.
>>82526004
>>82526021
>>82526026
>>82526038
The End.
>>82526026
I know it's only comic book logic and defeats the point they were trying to make, but it's irritating that the lead somehow irreversibly poisoned him when he didn't have any physical contact with it, it's not exactly radioactive is it?
>>82524361
>You're just naming heroes now
Heroes with super powers otherwise known as "Super heroes"
>>82526124
What are Beowulf, Siegfried, and King Arthur's superpowers then?
>>82526244
Beowulf is superhumanly strong and has outstanding endurance.
Arthur and Siegfried have magical swords and the blessings of gods.
>>82526288
"Blessing" and "magical sword" aren't really superpowers.
