>thinks that superheroes need to be reigned in
>went in front of Congress in his second movie and told the government that he isn't theirs to control
>>82488305
Civil War in all of its incarnations (movie, comic, etc) is incredibly fucking stupid. They should have adapted something else.
>>82488305
He's tired of getting his ass beat by his lonesome and would like the local law enforcement to help out more.
Dude saved the President of the United States and the only back-up he had during all that, he had to bring along himself.
>>82488305
Woah it's almost like he's experienced some sort of character growth after dealing with the consequences of power.
Crazy stuff, OP.
>>82488305
>thinks super heroes need to be reigned in
>hacked into secure SHIELD files just because he likes to be in control of things
>Drunkenly endangered lives fighting Rhodes
>Created an army of Iron man suits/drones
>CREATED AN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE THAT WANTED TO DESTROY THE EARTH
>Tried again ten minutes later because his ego
>>82488305
It's called character development.
>>82488384
>>82488397
Now if only they actually demonstrated some of that character growth in any of the movies preceding Civil War, instead of giving him a sudden heelturn.
>>82488416
>what is Age of Ultron
>what is Iron Man 3
>what is Avengers
>>82488416
>Now if only they actually demonstrated some of that character growth in any of the movies preceding Civil War
They did. That was, like, the entire point of AoU.
>>82488305
I can just imagine Tony specifically designing those lines and indents in the helmet's forehead to make himself look angrier.
Watch AoU to understand Iron Man's motivation.
Watch TWS to understand Cap's motivation.
It's not difficult.
>>82488416
Have you actually watched a single MCU movie since Iron Man 2?
>>82488493
>>82488493
>Age of Ultron
Decides, on his own without consulting anyone, to create an AI system that will police the entire world without any oversight from anyone that isn't named Tony Stark.
>Iron Man 3
Decides, on his own without consulting anyone, to use all of his Iron Man suits in a rescue operation that could've gone horribly wrong while the suit he was using constantly went haywire.
>Avengers
Decided, on his own and without consulting anyone, to redirect a thermonuclear weapon into a wormhole, endangering the lives of everyone in New York City, to say nothing of the people that would've suffered from the fallout of the weapon exploding if he screwed up what he was doing.
Oh yes. Look at all that character growth. He's matured in so many myriad ways. Oh my.
>>82488305
Its called character development. It's not always positive.
Enough has happened to him since IM2 that his world view has changed.
>>82488554
I was going to make a joke about how he was going to add frowny lines to the mouth part, but thought that would go overboard before I double-checked the OP image.
>>82488416
Dude, his behavior in AOU is completely dictated by his experiences in IM3, and his fuck ups in AOU are what drives his new found desire for control (which is somewhat of a twist on his desires of world policing in AoU).
>>82488654
>Age of Ultron
>Decides, on his own without consulting anyone, to create an AI system that will police the entire world without any oversight from anyone that isn't named Tony Stark
Yeah, then that went horribly wrong and he realizes the Avengers(mostly just him) need government supervision. He's supporting the Accords to make amends for what he sees as his greatest failure.
>Decided, on his own and without consulting anyone, to redirect a thermonuclear weapon into a wormhole, endangering the lives of everyone in New York City, to say nothing of the people that would've suffered from the fallout of the weapon exploding if he screwed up what he was doing.
The lives of everyone in New York City were already endangered. The nuke was aimed for NYC. The whole point of it was that if the Avengers were unsuccessful, which the Council felt they were, nuking the city would be a necessary measure to protect the rest of the world.
Redirecting the nuke is the only reason everyone in NYC didn't die.
>>82488737
Point is that he's still the same person that he was in the beginning of Iron Man 2. He can do whatever the fuck he wants, but those other people need to be restrained.
>>82488775
>Redirecting the nuke is the only reason everyone in NYC didn't die.
If only he knew someone who was naturally much stronger than he is, even in his Iron Man suit, and who can naturally fly and isn't reliant on artificial mechanics (that were in the process of breaking down before he even grabbed the missile). Gosh. It's just too bad that someone so god-like isn't around...
>Yeah, then that went horribly wrong and he realizes the Avengers(mostly just him) need government supervision. He's supporting the Accords to make amends for what he sees as his greatest failure.
Right. And we don't see that character growth anywhere in Age of Ultron. It comes across as a heelturn for the express purpose of Civil War. He acts totally out of control and does things without consulting anyone UNTIL this movie.
Wouldn't people immediately go after Tony if superheroes are reigned in?
>>82488654
>Decided, on his own and without consulting anyone, to redirect a thermonuclear weapon into a wormhole, endangering the lives of everyone in New York City, to say nothing of the people that would've suffered from the fallout of the weapon exploding if he screwed up what he was doing.
It was either throwing the nuke in the wormhole or nuke NYC. You are saying that nuking NYC was the only solution?
>Decides, on his own without consulting anyone, to use all of his Iron Man suits in a rescue operation that could've gone horribly wrong while the suit he was using constantly went haywire.
remind me when did his suits went haywire pre-Age of Ultron? All of his Iron Legion was controlled by Jarvis then.
>Decides, on his own without consulting anyone, to create an AI system that will police the entire world without any oversight from anyone that isn't named Tony Stark.
That's why he felt guilt-ridden in Civil War and stopped being Iron Man after AoU. Ultron was his most fuck up since being Iron Man.
>>82489212
>It was either throwing the nuke in the wormhole or nuke NYC. You are saying that nuking NYC was the only solution?
"Hey, Thor. My suit's bugging out. Could you handle this one for me?"
>remind me when did his suits went haywire pre-Age of Ultron? All of his Iron Legion was controlled by Jarvis then.
"Jarvis, get me Cap and Thor on the line. This job's a little too big for me, and I can't rely on my equipment."
>That's why he felt guilt-ridden in Civil War and stopped being Iron Man after AoU. Ultron was his most fuck up since being Iron Man.
Repeating myself here: Right. And we don't see that character growth anywhere in Age of Ultron. It comes across as a heelturn for the express purpose of Civil War. He acts totally out of control and does things without consulting anyone UNTIL this movie.
>>82488888
>If only he knew someone who was naturally much stronger than he is, even in his Iron Man suit, and who can naturally fly and isn't reliant on artificial mechanics (that were in the process of breaking down before he even grabbed the missile). Gosh. It's just too bad that someone so god-like isn't around...
Nice digits, and nice reaching. If you keep it up, you'll even touch China.On the off chance that you're not baiting:
What part of "Nuclear warhead is about half a minute away from leveling the city" implies to you that this is a good time for him to instead of going for the missile, call in Thor and explain his plan to him? And what part of that sequence with him announcing that he has a nuke, doesn't mean to you, that if he looked like he's in desperate need for help, and Thor was close enough to help, Thor would have come flying?
>>82488888
Except Thor doesn't have a comm or anything to call him with unlikely everyone else because he'd just flown in with his armor he magically summoned without having been outfitted by Shield first, and he's farther away.
Also Thor isn't familiar with nukes and might not know the proper pressure ratio to put on it to avoid setting it off.
Tony was actually the best man to redriect the missile. Hence why Fury called him.
>>82489473
Thor doesn't even know what a nuke IS. Tony would have to spend half their intercept time telling him giving him a crash course on a nuclear missile and then telling him his plan, at which point NYC would be a crater.
>>82489473
"Thor, grab that nuke and direct it towards the wormhole." Just timed myself saying that, and it took me less than five seconds.
>>82489513
Fact of the matter is that it was an impetuous decision that still endangered the lives of millions because his suit was bugging out in the process of doing what he did.
You can use all the in-universe excuses for his irresponsible behavior that you want. He's still essentially the same person that he's always been.
>>82489607
"Thor, grab that thing and direct it towards the wormhole. I'll explain later."
>>82488305
Post Avengers he had a PTSD meltdown in which he made 42 suits for any situation conceivable because he feels an inherent need for control having face his mortality.
This PTSD reared its head aigakn In Age of Ultron, where Wanda shows him his wormhole again, and this time all his friends are dead because he didn't do more. So then he is directly responsible for creating a genocidal robot that nearly wipes out the earth.
He loses Banner.
He loses Pepper.
What has Tony been proven to do when the chips are down? Try to control everything. So he AGREES with the accords, because not only is he someone who's learned the hard way that there needs to be a system, HE is case number one for why there should be one.
Because his fuck ups have lead to countless losses.
Stark's 7 movie character growth makes perfect sense with Civil War.
Remember the scene at MIT? Someone calls him out as being responsible for Sokovia - there's no defence. He realises she's right. He made Ultron. He unleashed it on the world. Sure there were other factors, but if he were acting in accordance with an overseeing body or committee - Ultron never would have happened.
That's why Stark signed the accords.
>>82489639
Did Thor have a communications device? I only remember the humans talking to each other.
>>82489748
If he didn't, he should've. That would've led to the scene described in that post, which would've actually demonstrated character growth for Tony Stark, instead of being yet another scene where his recklessness endangered the lives of millions.
>>82488305
To be fair people change their opinions all the time. Though at this point, highlighting inconsistencies in the MCU isn't very difficult.
>>82488305
I recall that he said his suits were his and wasn't going to just hand them over, but clearly in the past few years he's grown to believes he needs some oversight.
>>82488562
So bad storytelling then.
>>82489737
Ha. Holy shit. Tony's going full villain. His actions are totally consistent, now that I think about it. He's doing what he thinks is right, despite it being obviously wrong. He's even legitimizing throwing his friends, people who risked their lives to save the world, because it isn't about them being controlled, it's about HIM controlling THEM.
>>82489857
Nothing new for iron man really.
But it's good to keep in mind that he's not in control. He's just a part of the system. With oversight and accountability.
He answered to Ross and the UN.
>>82488305
There have been 3 movies in between, and every one has been about him becoming less individualistic and more paranoid.
The beginning of IM2 was to establish his lone wolf attitude that he slowly drops over the course of the movie. It's like complaining about Thor trying to talk down Ultron after being a warmonger at the start of Thor 1.
>>82489997
Right. But that undercuts the entire conflict of the story, whose point is supposed to be, "Who's in the right?" because it's obviously not Iron Man.
>>82488787
He's not even close to the same. He's become way, WAY more authoritarian and paranoid since then.
>>82489639
>endangered the lives of millions
Their lives were already endangered. Nothing he did put them in any more danger than they were already in. You're acting like he called in the nuke himself then decided to redirect it into the portal. The nuke was already there. Worst case scenario he fails and the nuke destroys New York like it was already going to regardless.
>>82490032
The movie doesn't portray him or Cap as right or wrong.
>>82490032
Except he was portrayed as being quite right.
Ironman's ideology vs captain America's ideology coming to heads was the point.
Tony being a part of the machine rather than its head helps to humanise him and legitimise his point. Because it's "do as I do, not as I say".
>>82488305
Along with what everyone else said, it's totally in line with the character of Tony, he was Secretary of Defense ffs. He doesn't wanna be an outlaw like Cap, he has too much to lose. So working with the government is his only option sometimes.
>>82490121
>>82490123
The movie doesn't need to portray him as right or wrong because he's obviously wrong. You can be evenhanded as you like with the character, but the narrative itself establishes him as a villain.
>>82490182
I think he's the victim...
He loses more than Steve does in the movie.
>>82488305
and then his house got blown up
There can be no good adaption of Civil War. It's a stupid concept and an even dumber comic. It's just an excuse for a slugfest no one asked for.
>>82490182
>because he's obviously wrong
He's not, though.
>>82488305
>four movies happened between those events.
>>82488305
>>82490654
>arresting my friends who have saved the world numerous times at the risk of their lives is the right thing to do
>>82490760
He's only arresting them because they're aiding a crazy fugitive who's murdered dozens of people and appears to still be in murder mode.
Saving the world doesn't mean you can ignore all laws forever.
>>82490760
>minimising the negative consequences of my friends' actions by bringing them in myself with as little injury as can be managed and negotiating with law enforcement
Oh yes he was so very wrong, wasn't he?
I like to think people like OP are baiting. But then, I'll see a thread like "why did the teachers in Interstellar think the moon landing was fake" and I realize how autistic and retarded some of the people on 4chan are.
>>82490817
Except that the negative consequences of their actions is a drop in the bucket compared to the fact that HE IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF AN ENTIRE COUNTRY.
>>82490807
Yep. Steve's totally wrong for trying to protect his friend that was brainwashed by Nazis.
>>82490850
Continuing my point. In the real world, Tony Stark would be in a prison cell for the rest of his life regardless of his immense wealth for the bullshit he pulled with fucking Ultron, but oh no. Steve's trying to protect his friend. What a monster.
>>82490900
No, we're saying it's not off screen. If you actually watched those movies you'd see how Stark progresses. If you think Tony was the same character with no development all the way from Iron Man 2 to the end of Age of Ultron, that's on you.
>>82490850
>Yep. Steve's totally wrong for trying to protect his friend that was brainwashed by Nazis.
When that friend is a murder machine who appears to still be in murder mode, yes. It's wrong.
>>82490850
Yes, and Tony isn't saying that their actions outweigh his own, just that its time to stop playing World Police. All of them should be in jail for the destruction they caused through reckless endangerment and willful negligence, from a legal point of view. That's the point of the Accords. It wipes the slate clean so there's no face lost by arresting heroes for previous acts of saving the world while simultaneously providing oversight for the future so it looks to the masses like the Avengers aren't a paramilitary vigilante force.
>>82490883
That's fallacious thinking, m8. Tony isn't claiming what Steve is doing is worse than Ultron. It's this:
>>82491007
>>82491007
>It wipes the slate clean so there's no face lost by arresting heroes for previous acts of saving the world while simultaneously providing oversight for the future so it looks to the masses like the Avengers aren't a paramilitary vigilante force.
Thereby giving Tony a 'get out of jail free' card, allowing him to face no consequences whatsoever for, once again, destroying an entire country.
>>82490999
People who are brainwashed are not held legally responsible for their actions while not in control of their own actions.
>>82491075
It also gives Steve and Banner and Clint and Natasha get out of jail free cards too, but oh no let's ignore that for the argument because we're strawmanning Tony as the only one in the wrong here!
>>82491188
Because he literally is.
Black Adam brought Khandaq back from ruin, and made his country livable again. He was just and benevolent to his people. But then he, like Tony Stark, destroyed an entire country. You know what happened to Black Adam? He was stripped of his powers and tossed into the street, homeless and without a cent in his pocket.
Tony Stark destroys an entire country and he gets to helm a governmental agency and watchdog organization.
>>82491075
People who are brainwashed or otherwise not in control of themselves can still be shot on sight if they are a danger to the public, regardless of their mental state. Nobody knew if he was still a murder machine and as far as anyone knew he had never been anything but a murder machine since HYDRA got him because that's all that was listed on the files that got leaked at the end of TWS.
>>82491075
>Thereby giving Tony a 'get out of jail free' card, allowing him to face no consequences whatsoever for, once again, destroying an entire country.
Tony's guilt isn't the issue here. Tony is atoning for his crimes here, and any negative karma he has doesn't give Steve free "do whatever you want" points.
>People who are brainwashed are not held legally responsible for their actions while not in control of their own actions.
It's not about guilt. It's about him being a dangerous killer who's still in murder mode.
You gotta put Old Yeller down, Steve.
>>82491239
Tony isn't helming anything. He's serving as penance.
>>82488305
>I fucked up the world with Ultron
>I better make sure EVERYONE else pays for their superhero mistakes, not just me
THE FUTURIST, EVERYONE!
>>82491239
Scarlet Witch blew up a bunch of people because she was careless. She forced Hulk to transform and rampage through a city.
Natasha has killed many many people, as has Clint. And not all of it while under the SHIELD umbrella. In fact, so has Steve.
All of them are in the legal sence murderers and recklessly negligent, and all belong in jail, but apparently it's only Tony you have an issue with. Either the Accords clears all of their names or none of them. You don't get to pick and choose.
>>82491245
>>82491274
>Tony's guilt isn't the issue here. Tony is atoning for his crimes here, and any negative karma he has doesn't give Steve free "do whatever you want" points.
"Don't worry, Tony. All is forgiven for the trillions of dollars in damages, and the thousands of lives that were lost in Ultron's attack, so long as you throw your friends in jail."
Tony gets away with, once again, destroying an entire country, ruining millions of people's lives and disrupting the global economy because he feels bad about it, promises not to do it again, and throws his friends in jail.
There is no way to argue this in a way that Tony Stark isn't a giant piece of shit.
How is Ellis still President? You'd think his VP being AIM would've been a huge blow to his administration.
>>82491294
Wanda is just as, if not more, guilty than Tony.
This too:
>>82491316
>>82491294
Go to bed, Clint. Your kids will be awake early and you need to rest.
>>82490970
I see development up until Ultron but there is no exploration of why he goes full fascist except off screen.
>>82491316
>Scarlet Witch
Brainwashed
>Natasha
Operating under the auspices of the United States government. She's legally in the clear, but not morally so.
>Clint
Brainwashed
>Steve
Killing in self defense and in the service of your country, protecting the world from the spread of Nazism is a crime now?
>>82491335
You very clearly have a hateboner for Stark. What about Wanda willingly helping a murderbot with what amounts to crimes against humanity? I don't hear you railing against her.
>>82491335
>There is no way to argue this in a way that Tony Stark isn't a giant piece of shit.
He made a mistake and he's paying for it by serving the public.
Wanda INTENTIONALLY fucked with Tony, knowing he'd do something destructive, and sent the Hulk to rampage in a heavily populated area. Both out of pure spite. That's way less defensible than accidentally creating an evil AI with noble intentions.
Black Widow got the exact same deal as Tony when she started working for SHIELD, only her crimes were way more sinister (having intentionally killed innocent people).
>>82491383
Wanda didn't DESTROY AN ENTIRE COUNTRY. Wanda was brainwashed while she wasn't DESTROYING AN ENTIRE COUNTRY.
What part of LITERALLY DESTROYING AN ENTIRE COUNTRY do you not understand?
"Hey, shop owner whose store was in the family line for the past three generations. It's totally cool that your store was destroyed, along with your family's home and you have no hope of ever recovering financially because Tony feels bad and is going to throw the friends who helped save your life because of his fuckup. No big deal."
>>82491424
>He made a mistake and he's paying for it by serving the public.
Oh yeah. Destroying an entire country. Just a little mistake. NBD.
>>82491369
You know that after SHIELD was dismantled in TWS that the Avengers were no longer under any jurisdiction, right?
Every mission they undertook between the end of TWS and the Accords was vigilante action. That's why there was such a fuss and a need for the Accords in the first place. They all have killed people since then. All of them have taken lives wilfully and at times through gross negligence.
Wanda was not even a little brainwashed when she threw an exploding Crossbones into an office block and killed 14 people.
Your biases are showing.
>>82491350
If anyone's fascist in CW, it's Steve. Tony is arguing for the opposite (limits on power).
His entire idea of Ultron in AoU was extremely authoritarian.
>>82491447
>Oh yeah. Destroying an entire country. Just a little mistake. NBD.
Ultron made his choice. They kept trying to reason with him and have him surrender peacefully, but he had to be a dick about the whole thing.
>>82491369
>Scarlet Witch
>Brainwashed
What the fuck are you talking about? She was in full control of her actions.
>BW
>Operating under the auspices of the United States government. She's legally in the clear, but not morally so.
So she got the exact same situation as Tony. Working for the government in exchange for ignoring her past crimes.
>>82491424
>That's way less defensible than accidentally creating an evil AI with noble intentions.
Let's think about the alternate timeline that was created by the creation of Ultron. The timeline where Tony still created an AI program that puts the entire world in a police state with one unelected person to watch over that police state. He still did this without anyone's clearance and without anyone's permission or guidance, but Ultron doesn't go crazy and try to kill everyone.
Is he still in the right? Is what he did defensible? How so?
Protip: Intentions don't mean shit when you're creating an absolute police state where you're the only person accountable for that absolute police state.
>>82491447
Wanda is just as responsible for Ultron as Tony is. She intentionally fucked up his head so that he'd do something destructive.
>>82491007
>All of them should be in jail for the destruction they caused through reckless endangerment and willful negligence, from a legal point of view.
That's a really shitty attitude. So they should just let Rumlow and his terrorist buddies run off with a biological weapon because in the attempt of stopping him a handful of people got accidentally killed?
>>82491496
>Is he still in the right? Is what he did defensible? How so?
Tony's plan for Ultron was just what the Avengers were already doing, but with greater numbers. If you have a problem with that idea, then you have a problem with what Steve and co. were doing, too.
>>82491470
"Your honor. In my defense, it wasn't me that killed my wife. It was my gun. If anything, the bullets should be the ones on trial here. All I did was purchase the gun, load it with bullets, point and squeeze the trigger."
>>82491510
Do you think cops should be allowed to spray gunfire in an area with civilians to stop a criminal?
>>82491544
Except that Tony, Steve and the rest of them will eventually die. If the Ultron program was successful, it would never die. The world would be under an absolute police state forever.
>>82491510
It doesn't excuse Tony so it shouldn't excuse them. Manslaughter is manslaughter no matter the scale.
And also please provide any evidence that SW was brainwashed. She wasn't. She was tricked by Ultron because his better world wasnt the better world she envisioned but she was 100% in control of her faculties and was doing it out of hate for the Avengers.
Nowhere is brainwashing suggested. You just can't deal with holding your waifu up to the same standards as you're holding Tony up to.
>>82491007
>All of them should be in jail for the destruction they caused through reckless endangerment and willful negligence, from a legal point of view. That's the point of the Accords. It wipes the slate clean so there's no face lost by arresting heroes for previous acts of saving the world while simultaneously providing oversight for the future so it looks to the masses like the Avengers aren't a paramilitary vigilante force.
Oh wow. The Chitauri are back. It's a damn shame that the Avengers are in jail and probably won't be all that motivated to help the people that threw them in there. Besides, if they went out there to fight the bad guys, imagine all the collateral damage. WOAH! Thanos just wiped out all of Europe! And now he's pulverized the West Coast. Sorry, Florida.
>>82491545
Guns can't think for themselves or talk, dumbass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGFZzvdsJ0
>>82491586
They can get new Avengers. Or have Stark Enterprises provide new Iron Man suits through a business setup. Or anything.
You want Tony in jail and everyone else excused. You're hypocritical and it's as simple as that.
>>82491567
Are you implying Steve wouldn't continue to train generations of Avengers, and so on?
>>82491618
In my analogy, the creation, programming and intended implementation of the Ultron program is equivalent to the purchasing, loading and aiming of a gun.
>>82491640
You're kinda bad at this, aren't you?
Fallible humans who are accountable to one another and to the courts are infinitely better than an unstoppable, immortal and invincible police force that literally no one buy one obscenely wealthy megalomaniac asked for.
>>82491564
Oh yeah. Because that's exactly what Steve was doing at the beginning of Civil War. Just mowing down all those civilians to get at Crossbones.
You're an idiot.
>>82491638
>>82491688
Oh right. Trust the Administration. The Government. Of course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBL_d9wnEZ0
And I'm not the guy you replied to. I think Tony shouldn't go to jail. I think he's a great guy going through some really rough times. But you are deranged if you think conventional bureaucracy can protect the MCU from fantastic threats. It's too slow. Hell, it's too slow IRL.
>>82491670
Guns don't think and your analogy is garbage because it blatantly ignores Ultron's ability to make his own choices.
>>82491688
>and to the courts
The Avengers have been extra-judiciary since TWS. Them answering to the courts is EXACTLY what Tony is trying to get them to do.
>>82491670
In the actual movie though, Ultron is sentient and thus fully capable of making his own decisions. He doesn't have to just follow "programming" any more than we do our own cultural programming. It's planted in us by how we grow up and informs our moral and ethical values but in the end it is the individual who makes the final call and is responsible for the choices made.
Tony is more like a bad parent who raised his child poorly. Even bad parents aren't criminally responsible if their child flips and decides to bring a gun to school or bomb some buildings or bring down a country.
OP here.
I like how I went in to this thread thinking that Tony was just a self centered egomaniac who can't smell his own shit. Now, because of the people defending him, I actually like him much less than I ever did.
Good going, guys.
>>82491719
>Oh yeah. Because that's exactly what Steve was doing at the beginning of Civil War. Just mowing down all those civilians to get at Crossbones.
It's not far from what Wanda did.
So instead of any elected body with limitations on power, we should trust a group of unelected individuals with authority to do whatever they want? That's exactly what got us Ultron.
>>82491730
>Tony is more like a bad parent who raised his child poorly.
He left the room for a few hours and Ultron just decided that most of mankind had to die by skimming the internet. Can't really blame him, but he didn't have to jump the gun and kill the nice AI that was trying to make him understand the nuances of the situation. Ultron even refused the opprotunity to talk with Tony in a civil fashion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5obw8BZ7kEc
>>82491763
So there should have been an election as to where to toss the dangerous suicide bomber explosion?
>>82491756
>I'm only receptive to information that re-affirms my existing opinions
That's humanity for you.
>>82491756
>this is a matter specifically designed to have shades of grey and no clear right and wrong
>when people point this out it makes me mad and like the guy I already dislike even less
You clearly weren't interested in a reasoned or balanced discussion in the first place so whatever, man.
>>82491803
I'm saying that the Avengers should have limitations on their authority and should ultimately answer to the people. Which is exactly what the Accords say.
>>82491719
I would trust and prefer Robert Mugabe over a sane Ultron. At least Robert Mugabe will eventually die, and the possibility of revolution exists, even if it's a fain glimmer of a hope.
There is no hope of ever overthrowing a sane, immortal, invincible police force that literally no one but Tony Stark asked for.
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve and will receive neither.
>>82491829
No. That's not what you said.
What you said was that Wanda was mowing down civilians to get at a criminal.
>>82491830
>Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve and will receive neither.
This is a retarded quote and always has been, because it could be applied to the existence of any laws at all.
>>82491853
I said two different things in the post you replied to.
I said what she did was not far off from that, and it wasn't.
>>82491779
Yeah, Tony is negligent for having left his kid alone for its entire lifetime to fend for itself but then he wasn't even aware of Ultron having come into being succesfully so it's hard to blame him for Ultron's net surfing and absolutely not possible to blame him for the choices Ultron made.
But he was well and truly negligent and reckless in playing with advanced AI beyond his reckoning. He's not able to wash his hands of the whole thing and should be held partially to blame, but he's not the antichrist massmurdering country destroyer some people here want to paint him as either.
Like all things in life, the scenario is muddy and messy, for everyone involved, not just Tony.
>>82491830
You make a better one. Simple. That's what the Avengers did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBjU_HH-KGw
And Vision's one of the most accommodating guys on Team Iron Man. Everyone always hits him first.
>>82489850
You're a goddamned moron
>>82491872
Chucking a bomb away from a crowd of people only for it to hit other people is pretty far off from, "Stop! Or I'll shoot indiscriminately into this crowd until I hit you!"
>>82491883
Pretty much this. He even admits to his guilt when he meets with Ultron in Sokovia.
"Come to confess your sins?"
"That depends. How much time you got?"
Captain America: Civil War didn't do anyone any favors. Both sides are screw-ups.
Team Iron Man, with all the help from the UN, couldn't even tell they were being played by one guy with no superpowers.
Team Captain America sacrificed their freedom and caused massive property damage to halt an evil schemeTHAT DIDN'T ACTUALLY EXIST.
>>82489315
>He acts totally out of control and does things without consulting anyone UNTIL this movie.
Did you miss the entire start of the movie and the debate with cap? Because of pulling this shit he's distanced the woman he loved from him, is confronted by the mother of someone's death he's directly responsible for and told it's his fault then this makes a big enough impact on him that his world view changed when it comes to government control. In AoU his attempt to control everything results in needless death. The arrival of supers has resulted in needless death directly associated with the avengers. Tony sees this and realizes he's wrong.
Does he need to say exposition to the fucking camera about why his views changed? Was bringing up that dead kid when him and cap were arguing not enough? Was all the shit at the start of the movie not enough?
>>82491977
Wait.
What?
Hydra didn't exist?
>>82489748
He never talks on comm with anyone.
He interacts directly with Hulk, and speaks in person woth Cap.
>>82488654
>cherrypicking, the post
With the Accords I'm wondering if they ever talk about the fact that if Cap and the others don't sign it they won't be able to actually go on missions, or at least not as well as they were beforehand. The Avengers must cost a shitload of money to run. Quinjets, armor, tech upgrades, tech, intelligence, that's all part of saving the world. If they don't sign the Accords then they essentially will be cut off from any intelligence or tech they NEED to take the bad guys out.
Tony, at least if I'm remembering correctly is the main financier of the Avengers. If he for some reason didn't sign the government would take away his access to his billions of dollars, thus leaving the team a bit short on cash.
Then there's the fact that the whole bombing incident has ruined the goodwill the Avengers had with 117 countries. They cannot count on them being able to fly into those countries or have access to their intelligence or support. What would Cap do if some douchbag was attacking say, Kansas City and they needed to fly across the US to get there? With the US signing the Accords they would respond to the Avengers that didn't sign like any other group that violated US airspace and can legally shoot them down to prevent them from landing and causing civillian damage, which has been a potential side effect since Ultron and the bombing in Nigeria (I think that's where CW opens up with). Here's the tricky question though. What if the Avengers defend themselves from being shot down? They damage a jet that's putting that pilots life at risk. They kill a pilot they're essentially on the US death list, not to mention when they're on the ground chances are the US military or other law enforcement may try to stop them.
With the Accords I get why Cap doesn't want to be under the UN control, but the fact is without signing them they simply cannot do their Avenging. At least not if they have some other outside support from a powerful nation or something.
>>82491937
>>82491977
I'm the guy who's been arguing that if Tony is to be punished then the others should too, but I'm not a Tonyfag. I don't think he should get off scottfree for his negligence, I just happen to think none of the others should too. And if the Accords is a legal contract with the backing of 117 nations to wipe clean the slates of all of them in exchange for government oversight, then so be it. That's the punishment.
Steve has fair points about the restrictions of government oversight, but at the same time ignoring the desires of those you're trying to protect, desires that are being enacted to make them feel protected and safe, is also counterproductive.
The problem with Hero vs Hero on a touchy subject like this is you literally cannot have one side he clearly in the right and the other clearly in the wrong because they're both heroes. In a literary sense it's one of those situations where a more moderated and conflicting result is about the best that can be hoped for unless you as the writer are happy to just push for one particular political or ideaological side at the expense of ignoring valid points from the other.
>>82491449
Strictly speaking the Avengers were never under any jurisdiction. SHIELD facilitated their development but outside of Cap, BW, and Hawkeye, who were actual SHIELD agents, they otherwise had no control over the Avengers. Up until this movie Tony has presumably been flying around intervening in international incidents for years without anyone caring. Hell, according to the films the Avengers were operating for months before AoU without anyone really giving enough of a shit to stop them.
Tony should really be compared to Ross considering that Ross stole classified US military material and then gave it to a foreign national who then turned around and attacked US soldiers and rampaged through Harlem and somehow managed to come out in a higher position of authority than before.
>>82492068
Ant-Man, Falcon, Wanda, and Hawkeye teamed up with Cap because they thoughthe was going to stop Zemo from unleashing a quintet of Winter Soldiers from wrecking havoc on the world and the accomplishment would vindicate Team Cap's stance of unchecked international peacekeeping and maybe bag Bucky some amnesty out of the deal. The fact that Zemo wasn't ever going to let the Russian Super Soldiers live, much less let them out of their cells, made their rebellion largely pointless.
>>82490182
Dude, you are watching this movies blindfolded and with your ears covered.
The conflict is extremely grey, with both sides having legitimate arguments and the leaders of both groups having a selfish ulterior motive that murks the whole issue.
>>82492118
Oh. Shit. The spoiler tag was for Civil War. My bad.
She did literally nothing wrong.
>>82492113
>Tony should really be compared to Ross considering that Ross stole classified US military material and then gave it to a foreign national who then turned around and attacked US soldiers and rampaged through Harlem and somehow managed to come out in a higher position of authority than before.
That's because everyone else who could have filled that position ended up being Hydra. Ross actually isn't a much better person than a Hydra Agent, but he IS pro-America and as such was chosen. He is willing to kill as many innocent people as Hydra would, but Ross would do it to the benefit of the American Empire.
>>82492086
They don't need to discuss how they'll keep Avengering if they don't sign the accords because as said in the movie if they don't then their future actions will be illegal.
Essentially they were vigilantes fighting the good fight at the cost of making the governments look bad. The Accords basically state "if you sign you can keep doing what you do except at our behest and under our oversight and if you don't sign then we'll start bringing the law down on you with the force of the UN and 117 nations behind it".
So as soon as Steve went to bring in Bucky by himself he was committing the crime of interfering with a legal government-mandated "arrest" (i dunno what you call it, since they had shoot on sight orders but could still bring bucky in if he behaved). Ross made it clear when he first presented the Accords to them that either theycan Avenge as a lawful group or not Avenge at all.
>>82492167
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGFZzvdsJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD-SAigXitc
>>82492092
>And if the Accords is a legal contract with the backing of 117 nations to wipe clean the slates of all of them in exchange for government oversight, then so be it. That's the punishment.
The issue is at the end you find out what the accords end up being; that of putting Avengers under the control of Ross and the US government, and the UN just rubber stamps whatever Ross wants. All the talk about the UN is just excuses, America finally obtained full control of Ironman like they always wanted.
>>82492167
Wanda is almost as bad as Tony. Perhaps slightly worse considering how she deliberately incited Hulk to rampage and incited Tony's fears and let himt ake the sceptre knowing he'd fuck up with it all because she hated the Avengers.
Obviously she's regretful now but so is Tony. They're about on an even playing field.
>>82491369
Wanda was never brainwashed.
And a Nat has a shitload of kills not covered by her work as SHIELD.
Also, Steve is in the doghouse for bringing SHIELD down, and his motives in CW are a tad more personal.
You are ignoring everything in several movies just to twist Tony.
>>82492210
BUT ANON MAI WAIFU WAS BRAINWASHED! SHE'S PERFECT AND INNOCENT AND PURE!
>>82492167
She should have BTFO Tony harder tbqh.
>>82492199
>but could still bring bucky in if he behaved
What? What are you basing this on? Of course they would just kill him, if they wanted him alive they would say "you have permission to kill", not "kill on sight."
>>82492210
I don't see anything wrong there.
Why is OP so retarded?
IM
>Hoo boy, i really fucked up with this building weapons thing. Maybe I should take more responsibility with my knowledge.
after IM2
>Well, that was kinda fucked, I should get help from some friends
after IM3
>Well, clearly, I've been fucking up my whole life. Maybe I can fix this by making something to protect the world
After AoU
>Ok, I need to stop and let someone else handle this.
Steve and Tony's character arcs make sense. Cap starts off as a government creation, to protect their interests. In TWS, he learns the government has been misusing him. In CW, he's sick of being their pawn, and so he rebels. Tony has a reverse arc. He starts out being an objectivist corporate rebel that won't help the government. And through his own experiences, he's decided it would be better if he had some supervision.
>>82492299
They didn't have to though. They didn't have "orders to kill on sight". The phrase was that officers involved in bringing him in "are now permitted to kill on sight". Steve came over to get him and convince him to go peacefully rather than run. Ie they weren't necessitated to shoot him on sight unless that was in the process of him running away or fighting back.
Otherwise Cap could have just let Bucky run and not intervened.
>>82491829
Not really. In paper the Accords are near, but in practice, with people like Ross and the WSC behind it is a terrible idea, and exactly Why Team Cap stood against it.
The conflict in CW is grey and has no good or bad side.
>>82492068
No, silly goose. He is speaking aboutthe plan to activate the WS army.
Zemo never intended to. It was just used as bait.
>>82492086
Well, they do have the king of fucking Wakanda on their side now.
But they'll probably lay low.
>>82492086
>Tony, at least if I'm remembering correctly is the main financier of the Avengers. If he for some reason didn't sign the government would take away his access to his billions of dollars, thus leaving the team a bit short on cash.
Unless the US government is going to freeze all of Tony's personal assets plus the assets of Stark Enterprises that's not an issue. Keep in mind Stark Enterprises is a Fortune 500 company and major government contractor in the MCU.
Also since everyone but Thor, Scarlet Witch, and presumably Vision is an American citizen, it's illegal for the US military to engage in law enforcement activities outside a few specific conditions, there is nothing illegal about traveling the country or intervening against criminal activity, unless the US government is willing to publicly kill its citizens on US soil with zero legal justification while committing a Constitutional violation it's not going to be an issue. And if they are willing to do so then the MCU has bigger problems than the Avengers.
Saying UN control sounds good, but in the real world and presumably the MCU too considering what we've seen, the UN has an abysmal track record when it comes to responding to pretty much anything, if they even bother responding at all.
>>82492602
>Saying UN control sounds good, but in the real world and presumably the MCU too considering what we've seen, the UN has an abysmal track record when it comes to responding to pretty much anything, if they even bother responding at all.
You see that Ross is the real one in charge, when he dismissed the evidence that Bucky was innocent. That's basically what the Accord end up being, that the US of A is the one in control now like it always had been. And Ross holds the keys.
>>82492392
I think it's really cool how Tony and Steve's character arcs ended up like that. Thanks for good explanation, anon.
>>82488305
>People change their mind
Oh the inhumanity!
>>82488305
>>thinks that superheroes need to be reigned in
>>went in front of Congress in his second movie and told the government that he isn't theirs to control
and look how well that turned out
a man can change his views anon
Has anybody in this thread yet mentioned how, in the second movie, his appearance in front of congress wasn't actually about control of superheroes by the government?
>>82492970
Tony's the kind of arrogant cunt that won't accept a good idea unless he can convince himself it was his idea. Once he does that, he's behind it 100%
>>82488416
I gotta wonder: did you actually watch any of the movies at all? Or do you think they're completely unconnected?
>>82493006
>and look how well that turned out
The primary guy pushing for him to be under government control was HYDRA, which had heavily infiltrated the US government and intelligence community.
The problem with CW is that it takes place after TWS and IM3. In-universe it was recently discovered that a shadow group of totalitarians descended from Nazis were literally a few minutes away from a global murder campaign facilitated by their manipulation and control of the government and that government contractor was faking terrorist attacks to not only cover up their illegal human experimentation but also to make more money and attempted to assassinate the president with the full knowledge and consent of the VP. Why the fuck would anyone trust the government is beyond me.
>>82493044
Not entirely but that is a component. It's basically about if the Iron Man tech should be in private hands.
>>82488305
Its called character development
>>82488654
I hate Tony with a passion but your third point is dumb. The government deliberately sent a nuke to blow up NYC and Tony grabbed it to send it away. He didn't endanger anyone.
>>82492392
Steve's CHARACTER was never a goverment puppet though. He's pretty much been the same way since the beginning, he just wants to do what's right.
If his goverment was Nazi Germany he wouldn't have fought for them...
>>82492295
> Her powers amp her emotions, but Wanda was not aware of this and likely made decisions based on distorted emotions. Such is the nature of Chaos Magic. She's getting better at steadying herself but she's still not fully aware.
> Where Wanda should be is with Strange training and learning about her powers.
How Cap explained to his team that they went through shit for nothing won't go down well.
No one's happy, really. Spiderman will get his JUSTing when the Accords come after him.
>>82494540
Where Wanda should be isin bedwith my cuddling her from behind.
>>82492290
But she is.
>>82488305
>builds iron man suit in first movie
>destroys them in the third
Wandafags are the worst.
>>82494626
Fuck you.
All the Avengers are flawed and broken people. All of them are good people, but they all got problematics.
>people with the power to destroy entire cities at will should be completely independent from supervision and control by the public
I know you americans are all about muh freedumbs don't tread on me blood of the tyrants etc. but you do realise even stuff like basic demolition work requires permits and licenses in the states and that they are only issued after an official has determined you're capable of being liable for your work and sufficiently trained.
>>82488416
>>82488654
Iron Man was the playboy billionaire who definitely wouldn't of sided with the Govt in Iron Man 1. Cap is someone who would side with the Govt in his first movie.
After several movies, and in Civil War we see a role reversal. A young child could probably understand this.
Either you're baiting or incredibly retarded.
I think that the problem with some of the development of Tony's character was not the benchmarks per se as described by >>82492392. I think those sum up the character growth we're suppose to see with Tony. I think it's the lackluster/inconsistent execution.
Does anyone seriously believe that AoU was particularly well written?
>>82494708
It's not the worst written movie I've ever seen.
It's a bit busy in terms of characters and plots, but they are sufficiently well told.
The main thread is pretty solid.
>>82494708
I doubt anyone believes that it was well written but most people still understood Tony's character in it and how his desire to build an all encompassing Iron Wall to replace him spun off from his PTSD about the Battle of New York as demonstrated in IM3 and his turning a new leaf and deciding that he doesn't necessarily need to have his suits to be Iron Man. He can still use them when he wants or needs to, but he has much more to offer, and that's part of where his Ultron Initiative stems from.
>>82494733
If anything, I think people are more confused by the ending of IM3.
People are legit convinced that movie ended with him deciding to stop being Iron Man.
>went in front of Congress in his second movie and told the government that he isn't theirs to control
>3 movies later he's seen a lot of the damage he's caused
It's called guilt and character development
>>82494760
No, what he told them is that he is not going to give the US military the specifications to build their own Iron Man suits.
>>82494726
>>82494733
I think that if the execution of Tony's character arc was better handled, I might have been a bit more lenient with where they're taking Tony. The issue I have is that he went on to committing the same set of actions that led to the creation of Ultron with the creation of Vision, i.e. building a super-science robot behind the back of his allies, and he did not seem to show remorse for basically doing the same thing over again. And it felt that the movie went on to justify his actions the second time around without really explaining where Tony was confident enough that a second super-science robot (now with an infinity gem) wouldn't go rogue on them again.
Maybe I'm wrong and I'm remembering the events differently, but I honestly felt unsatisfied after watching AoU and at this point, I'm not sure if it's worth going through 2+ hours of a movie that tried to do too much and accomplished too little.
At least the Hulkbuster was sort of interesting to watch.
>>82494745
Well given how at the ends he says I AM IRON MAN those people are idiots.
But honestly, given how it was designed to potentially close out Tony's arc if RDJ didn't renew contract, I can understand to a degree.
He was either going to
A) Drop the suit and realise he can still do more for the world as Tony Stark by being the Iron Man Quartermaster for future heroes and so on and so forth
B) Continue being Iron Man but realise that he doesn't have to define himself by it and spend all jis time feverishly preparing for an end-of-world scenario to the exclusion of the rest of his life in order to hide away from the basic realities of life.
>>82494791
>And it felt that the movie went on to justify his actions the second time around without really explaining where Tony was confident enough that a second super-science robot (now with an infinity gem) wouldn't go rogue on them again.
Except they explicitely talk about uploading Jarvis' AI matrix into the vision, because Jarvis is a known entity that spent the whole fucking movie working against Ultron.
>>82494824
Okay. Fair point there. It has been a while since I last saw AoU. I still think that there was something missing that kept me from accepting the end result, at least with Tony's end.
Honestly, the movie just felt blah. Like bits and pieces of it were pretty nice, but as a whole, it felt like a mess. Maybe Whedon was way over his head when he was writing the script for this movie.
>>82494846
Nah it was a pretty meh film. Honestly rather boring and I like the MCU as a whole.
>>82494626
You'll eventually see the light.
>>82488305
Shitposting aside, Cap and Steve, early in their character arcs, would be on opposite sides of where they ended up.
Tony "Don't Touch My Stuff" Stark would've been against the accords basically because he doesn't like being told what to do, but over the course of the movies he's basically had a hand in causing almost every problem he's had to deal with. It's not surprising (though it is a tad hypocritical) that he's now deciding "Maybe if someone smacked me upside the head and said 'don't do that you shit.' Ultron wouldn't have existed."
Cap, being a loyal soldier, would've been perfectly fine with the Accords, probably thinking that with oversight they'd be able to organize better. But after Winter Soldier and his dealings with Stark, he realized that sometimes the people in charge are, at best, incompetent, and at worst actively against the best interests of those they're supposed to serve.
>>82494872
Cap is arguable, because he went against authority even back in WW2 becaue they were being a bunch of bureaucrats.
If anything, CW establishes that what Erskine told Steve the night before the experiment actually has stuck with him to modern times.
Don't be a perfect soldier. Be a good man.
>>82488416
>heelturn
But Tony was completely in the right. I was sincerely rooting for him in every confrontation. Cap was such a fucking Morality Sue in this movie I got pic related vibes from him.
>Cap waited 2 years to tell Tony that Bucky killed his parents.
Kind of ironic that Cap doesn't follow his own rules when his boyfriend is involved.
>>82494869
She's cute but I'm not going to distort the events of the movies to make a character she plays fit with the mental image I have of said fictional being.
I'd Olsen though, for sure.
>>82494921
Oh no, I admit she has fucked it up more than once.
>>82494906
>But Tony was completely in the right. I was sincerely rooting for him in every confrontation.
Even when he broke the Accord himself at the end? When Ross told him he isn't in charge anymore, and that Ross is running things now?
>>82488305
What he said in Iron man 2 was that he wasn't willing to hand in the blueprints of his suits to the military because they would re fabricate it to fight their wars. In civil war, he wanted constants on how superheros used their powers. I don't see where it clashes...
>>82494906
Cap wasn't even really in the right by the end of the movie though. He went against the accords an in the end the reason he went against the accords (muh super soldies) turned out to be absolute shit. In the end, Cap wasn't proved to be correct because nothing he was fighting against was going to ever pose a threat, Bucky is frozen again except now everyone is in Wakanda on the run from 117 governments.
Cap and his team are wanted by the vast majority of the world, are escapists from prison, broken apart from the other avengers and were thrown in prison by one of their allies and the underlying threat was never an actual threat to the world. Tony is further submersed into isolation and guilt as is cap, because the issue was never black and white and taking either side always had consequences.
>>82489639
Did you know that sometimes when your in the middle of a huge battle you make split second decisions because you don't have time to think certain things through?
>>82495118
Yet everything went his way, he won the fight, saved his friend, effortlessly saved all the teammates (that a was a complete fucking asspull) and got the king of super-advanced country backing him now. The writers are clearly on his side here.
>>82495219
Cap probably sees it differently, since he made 2 men with loving families fugitives, and he couldn't truly help Bucky in the end.
>>82488493
>>82488549
>AoU
It's funny how everyone blamed the manlet and ignore Scarlet Bitch.
>>82495306
A lot of anons pointed it out early on. Its just that Wandafags don't want to talk about how their waifu indirectly killed a lot of people.
>>82495219
Bullshit, he freed his friends, but they are all now fugitives. Two of them were family men and he dragged them into the conflict and ruined their lives in the immediate future (granted, they chose to get involved).
And Bucky is back on ice for an indeterminate amount of time.
Both sides lots here.
And I find that anyone that tries to paint either side as in the right or wrong is missing the fucking point.
>>82495343
Every single Avenger has killed a fuckload of things indirectly and directly.
>>82490328
He brought it all on himself.
And I also see Tony as the villain in this conflict. Giving the UN or US an Army of Capes would only lead to disaster.
>>82490999
Nice trips.
Also, I think the worse Murder Machine is Daddy Warbucks & his prodigal son Ultron. Tony had more blood on his hands than all of the Anti Reg team combined.
If Tony wants to be babysat by the UN, that's his choice. Others, are no where near as dangerous as Stark.
>>82495607
Thor killed Frost Giants.
Cap killed Nazis.
Tony's weapons killed untold numbers of civilians long before he became Iron Man.
Judging by Ultron, I don't think the lessons are sinking in...
Getting back to Scarlet Witch, Crossbones would have detonated whether or not she'd worked for the UN or not.
>>82488305
I honestly don't get how people can get behind Tony's ideas, when Winter Soldier is biggest proof against them.
>>82495780
>Tony's weapons killed untold numbers of civilians long before he became Iron Man.
What is with this retarded psychology? He didn't aim the things, he didn't pull the trigger, he wasn't the guy with the genocidal agenda. That killing intent in the people who did would've expressed themselves in some other way.
>>82488416
Iron Man 1:
>I realize I've become part of a system that is too comfortable with zero accountability
He's talking about the weapons manufacturing industry. He becomes Iron Man to correct that.
Then by the time Civil War happens, he realizes he just traded one zero accountability system for another. It actually works pretty well and is consistent with his character.
If only the whole thing hadn't fallen off the wayside and turned into "GIMME THE BUCKY" and then "LEMME KILL THE BUCKY"
>thinks the government should be put in charge
>in the same movie Zemo infiltrated a government facility and got all the way into Bucky's cell without even looking remotely like the guy he was imitating
>>82488305
Manlets are wrong always.
So the sonic boom thing Tony used on Bucky, was that the same weapon Stane shut him down with?
>>82495831
Just ignore him. he's probably twelve.
>>82492392
After AoU
>Ok, I need to stop and let someone else handle this.
But remember that was Wanda manipulating Tony. Without the nightmare, he probably would face Ultron more cautiously.
In addition, Tony had already created prototypes of artificial intelligence as Jarvis aand Friday. Perhaps they are not exactly alive, but everything had gone for the better with them.
Ultron went wrong in a very extreme and forced way, and frankly I do not think Tony has real fault. Things went bad "just because"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu9L15EEWgw
It's hard for me to understand how many retards become confused by a simple summer blockbuster popcorn movie.
>>82499509
On a related note, I was confused by the dream scene within a dream scene in BvS. Am I a retard?
>>82499678
You mean the Flash scene?
That was really weird, almost like they want to set up some time travel shenanigans, but don't want to commit to the storyline, so they make it a "eeeeh, might be a dream" kind of thing.
It might've actually been future flash, or it might not.
>>82499678
>>82499948
It's easy to miss if you only see it once but makes sense when you focus on it.
>>82488305
It's almost like he's went through character development since then. Like something happened that maybe affected his views on these things.
>/co/ now defends the manlet's quips the character
What went wrong?
>>82495118
In Cap's defense how was he supposed to know Zemo was this crazy guy who'd go through all this trouble just to make him and Iron Man fight?
He tried to tell Tony and the Accords about Zemo, they didn't want to hear it. Was he supposed to just sit back and go "Welp guess we'll just have to hope Zemo is running some crazily complex plan and isn't actually going to use those 5 super soliders he's on his way to get." Cause that would be horribly negligent.
I think the whole idea for the movie was kinda flat, just bureaucracy. In the comics their secret identities point actually felt like something that matters.
Take the chitauri attack for example, just because Avengers "work" for someone wouldn't have stopped the destruction. Ultron was created behind everyones back, being on some list wouldn't have stopped it. Furys whole thing is doing shit behind everyones back even though he basically was SHIELD.
>>82494909
Yeah, what a dick. I'm glad Markus and McFeely delivered when they said they'd reveal a dark side to Cap's character though.
>>82488305
cant tell you how many times this has happened
>character FINALLY has an attitude i can get behind
>turns out they were setting him up for 'development' and now he was 'wrong' back then
whatever man, just whatever.
>>82500581
But i havent SEEN that movie yet and its plot sounds awful!
>>82488305
What is character development?
>>82488387
Worst hero
This thread should be on >>>/tv/
>>82491239
Teth is an antihero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu9L15EEWgw
Is this going to be the new ANTS?
>>82491883
Ultron came to life and immediately went bugfuck crazy like 5 minutes later. Tony was stupid for building him in the first place but I can't really fault him for Ultron going full misanthrope.
>>82488305
A lot happens between then. Watch the movie and you might know why
Just saw it
It's really overrated, especially the airport scene. People were saying it was amazing, but it just wasn't that good.
Also, why was there only one post credits scene? They could've done Thanos, Ant-man, Scarlet Witch, General Ross, anyone really
>>82502524
>Bucky just does a 360 and walks away
>>82502593
There were two of them you idiot.
did civil war beat Bvs yet?
or did the marvel drones predict wrong again?
>>82502678
My friend said there was only one? We left after Bucky was with Black Panther
>>82502715
What are you talking about?
>>82490830
i just consider everyone trolling until proven innocence...makes going on 4chan way more funny...and way less angry
>>82502715
It just opened faggot, but yes, Fandango already reports it as the movie with the most pre-sold tickets ever.
>>82502776
Spidey signal nigga.
>>82502938
Spidey was in a post credit scene? FUCKgot a link?
>>82488305
Other movies happened between Iron Man 2 and Civil War you know. Or are you just pretending to be retarded?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cR6Xa6fEAg
>>82494443
>If his goverment was Nazi Germany he wouldn't have fought for them...
I think if his goverment was Nazi Germany he would think he was doing the right thing and fought for them. Not all Nazi soldiers were evil murdering machines.
>>82503043
Don't have it on me but someone posted a link to it before onTumblr.
>>82502524
>RDJ trying to cover up his platform shoes with his pants
>>82498806
>So the sonic boom thing Tony used on Bucky, was that the same weapon Stane shut him down with?
Likely a mini version of the sonic cannons used against the Hulk.
>>82502524
Damn Emily Vancamp is tall.
>>82499678
The Knightmare?
Without knowledge of the comics that scene doesn't make a whole lot of sense, except maybe as Bruce projecting his fears about Superman and him becoming a demonic god or something.
>thought I was wasting my time watching season 2 of Agent Carter
>mfw spending so much time with those characters paid off when I cried duringPeggy's Funeral and the Howard reveal
>>82506073
wait, that wasn't what happened?
I just thought batman was projecting his fears into the setting of attack of the clones.
>>82506160
I'm surprised Jarvis wasn't implicated in that somehow. Too much of a spoiler if D'Arcy was there?
>>82506181
The Omega symbol and the giant bugs were related to Darkseid, who Bruce had never heard of, so it was prooobably prophetic.
>>82488305
>people cant change their worldview after two+ near-apocalypses
>>82506286
especially since the flash showed up literally after with his warning, during that same (nested) dream
>>82495343
Chaos Magic's a bitch to learn, especially given there are only two other users and they are omnipotent, ultra powerful dimension lords.
Fact is, Wanda needs to master CM or Thanos will bumrape the Avengers in 5 seconds. If she gives up and chills in Wakanda we're all doomed.
Strange meets her (perhaps after having his shit pushed in by one of the aforementioned Gods) and offers to train her (he did this in the comics before she met Agatha). Olsen stated last autumn that Wanda will at some point have to make a choice between the Avengers and finding her own purpose.
Wanda learns how to control her powers by using MAGIC.
>>82506414
but does the flash have dream travel powers?
>Creates Ultron
>I know I'll make another Ultron to stop him
>Tony no
>Fuck you guys I'm doing it anyway and it worked, we all love each other again
Aughhh
>>82506213
thank god, I couldn't take Jarvis getting brutally murdered too
>>82506213
MCU people don't watch the shows, for all they know D'Arcy's Jarvis doesn’t exist.
>>82488305
>created ultron
>>82495343
As a Wandafag I'm happy to admit she was responsible for some horrible things in Avengers: AoU. So was Tony.
But I tend to see these things in broad strokes. We have a new team coming in that clearly doesn't like some of the things the characters did in AoU, so they downplay them. Which is why in Wanda's case not only are her actions in AoU not mentioned, but her telepathic powers are gone.
Same with Tony, the stuff in his past that matters is the stuff he actually mentions in this movie. If they bring up other stuff in the next movie then I'll blame him for that too.
It's not the only way to watch movies with continuity, but I feel like Wanda and Tony are better characters in this movie than they were in AoU and they shouldn't be held too responsible for what Whedon had them do.
Maybe I just am used to thinking that way because I'm a Wandafag and am not interested in going (in the comics) "oh, she destroyed the mutants" or whatever. I have to let the characters' horrible past deeds go.
>>82491316
If Wanda belongs in jail, then so does Tony for being the head of a company that sold weapons to terrorists.
In fact, if it wasn't for him, maybe the terrorists wouldn't have gotten weapons and they would have attacked Sokovia.
Maybe Wanda and Pietro could have had a normal life.
>>82506467
Flash has all the powers.
>>82506723
Don't have to, it's already mentioned in IM1 that Tony was raised by him as basically a surrogate father and that's why he based JARVIS on him.
>he killed my mom and Jarvis
Double pissed.
>>82506831
Why is every Marvel movie about people blaming the Avengers for stuff they didn't really do?
>>82506924
Because people need to hate Tony, Steve, et al but they can't ever be truly unsympathetic. So they need to be blamed, attacked, etc. for stuff that wasn't fully their fault.
In an edgier movie Tony Stark and the rest would have been unambiguously responsible for killing people and the revenge would make sense, but that's not the kind of story they're telling.
>>82506989
yeah, imagine if Vision just randomly started cutting skyscrapers apart with his laser beams in a densely populated city.
That'd be fucked up.
>>82488356
Maybe he should have coded his fucking suits so that other people can use them. Imagine him, Rhodey, and the President each using an armor to fuck shit up in the finale.
>>82507206
why can't he make cheap commercial suits that simply protect civillians.
Like a life vest that stops falling skyscrapers.
>>82491350
He doesn't go "full fascist". I'm not sure if you've seen the film or not, but he acts very reasonably. All he wants to do is capture Steve and friends safely, but things escalate with Bucky and it gets a bit violent. There is no negative zone prisons or non-consensual cloning here.
