>Implying Marvel heroes don't kill.
This is a scene from Avengers 1, when Cap pushes a guy off the Helicarrier. Seconds later, he throws a grenade back at another dude.
Why is it a problem when, in BvS, Batman apparently killed people, but in this, when Cap clearly kills someone, it's no big deal?
>>82385156
Because Marvel is supposed to be about edgy faggots. DC is supposed to be better.
>Ironman kills in the first movie
it was stablished they do kill since day one
For the same reason it's okay for a dog to bark but if a cat does it it's weird. They're different beasts.
>>82385156
I have no idea to be honest, same thing when people used to pretend Batman doesn't kill till about a month ago
>>82385156
Of course it's okay for Cap to kill people, he's a soldier.
>>82385194
So it's not okay for Batman in his cinematic universe to kill?
Marvel heroes only kill when they have to, when the bad guys are already trying to kill them or civilians
batman hunts down people to torture and kill when it's not necisary to deend anyone and superman actually tackles the bad guy INTO a civilian area
>>82385227
A uniform doesn't give you the right you faggot
>>82385156
I also don't understand why cap is fine with hanging around people who are using guns and clearly shooting people.
>>82385156
>Implying Marvel heroes don't kill.
>implying anyone implies this
>>82385156
Because it's only OK if Marvel does it, OP. Didn't you read the memo?
>>82385244
Him being in the army does.
Don't forget that those guys were innocent and mind-controlled by Loki
>>82385222
Confirmed: >>82385242
>>82385259
Cap fought in WWII, he used lethal force against Nazi and Hydra goons during it. Don't you remember during first Avenger it was the only movie that showed Cap with a firearm along with his shield? I'm pretty sure Cap understands at the end of the day not everyone is coming back alive be it villain or hero.
>>82385156
To be fair this is during a war. Iron man in IM1 is a war criminal and no one cares.
>>82385323
Also,
>hey guys, why doesn't Marvel make a Sentry movie?
>>82385305
Actually those mercs weren't mind controlled. They were willingly working with Loki since he was trying to harm SHIELD. Don't you remember the scene where there was a bunker full of scientists and soldiers, one guy remarking SHIELD has made alot of enemies?
>>82385259
Cap loves guns
>>82385156
>Implying Marvel heroes don't kill.
Never implied anywhere.
>>82385301
I guess ISIS have the right to kill people too since they are an army
>>82385361
But that's Bucky
>>82385323
That's fucking awesome
>>82385237
>So it's not okay for Batman in his cinematic universe to kill?
Batman had celebrated dark knight trilogy all about his relationship to the act of killing.
He lets Ras dies in BB, which comes back to bit his ass in Rises.
He refuses to kill the Joker in TDK, but tackles Harvey of a building resulting in his death and taking the blame for Harvey's murders, which comes back to bite him in the ass in Rises.
In Rises everything comes back to bite him in the ass.
Batman had a no-kill rule, or at least it was a major focus of his previous characterization.
BvS assumes that Batman sues lethal force. There's very little dialog about it other than Alfred and Clark making reference to Batman escalating to branding criminals.
It' the kind of thing audiences wanted a conversation about, but Snyder abhors dialog.
>>82385373
fucking a++ logic there friendo
>>82385237
no, because that's a major character point of his. Superman and flash are also known for not killing.
>>82385156
Captain America is a WWII vet and, despite or perhaps even because of his strong moral foundation, understands that in some cases it is necessary to take a life to defend your country, neighbors, and family.
Batman in almost every popular incarnation has an extremely firm no-kill rule, stemming from intense psychological trauma. The exception most people cite is the first few years of his existence when the writers were still establishing him as a character, and even in those he wasn't exactly Franking everyone in sight.
>>82385403
It really is, no amount of paperwork makes it ok to murder people
I don't care that Cap kills people, the people who he kills have it coming
HOWEVER, saying it's ok for him to kill BECAUSE he's in the Army is retarded
No ammount of paperwork or badges give you the right to murder people, anyone can kill in self defence or to protect people though (obviously depends on the actual situation though)
>>82385237
No, it's like having Spider-Man kill someone. It's completely against his character.
>>82385237
Not when out of all the cape comics in existance he is the one character whose ONE universaly know trait is that he doent kill.
>>82385436
He doesn't have a rule, you fucking made it up, he kills in every media that he's in that isn't for children like cartoons
He kills in the movies all the time and the comics
>>82385187
Oh man, this bait never gets old
>>82385514
He kills in every movie, apart from Batman and Robin...
(and the adam west ones)
>>82385156
Not all characters are well known for having no-kill rules.
Cap killing someone isn't a big deal. He was a solider in WWII. You see Batman killing several people, when his entire character revolves around the fact that he doesn't kill, then yeah there's a problem.
>>82385532
>he kills in every media that he's in that isn't for children like cartoons
He kills in the movies all the time and the comics
>Implying that capeshit movies and comics aren't for children
>>82385559
Sure, in the end he defeats villains, but mowing down with machine guns?
>>82385348
Whew, thank God they censored that bad word.
>>82385559
Yeah, and it still doesn't work there. Batman shouldn't kill. It's been a part of his character for 50+ years.
These are Marvel heroes where people have very little conceptions of the character and what they "should be". No one knew who Iron Man or Captain America was or their history.
Unlike DC where Batman and Superman are internationally known icons of heroism.
You would see the same crowd reaction if they saw Peter Parker acting like a cool jock instead of an awkward nerd character or photographer. I heard a lot of complaints about how he was portrayed in ASM from normies."He's too cool to be Peter Parker".
>>82385156
>WW2 war hero kills people
Jesus who'd have thought
Because batman has always been portrayed as never killing because that is the last step for him to becoming a psycho, he is vengence but killing is the one line he never wants to cross because then he would be no better than the villains he fought.
>Why doesn't Mario use a sword? It's okay when Link does it!
>Why don't the Beatles play dubstep? It's okay when SKrillex does it!
>Why aren't hamburgers made of fish! Fish is awesome!
Some things are different from other things you incredibly stupid person you,
>>82385532
>He doesn't have a rule, you fucking made it up,
You're either spectacularly ignorant or contrarian right now.
Under the Red Hood is all about Batman's refusal to take the Joker's life specifically.
>he kills in every media that he's in that isn't for children like cartoons
>He kills in the movies all the time and the comics
Precedent by adaptation is still from adaptation, not the source material.
Over 70 years of history, for almost all of them, a major plot point is Batman is his refusal to kill.
The story, the Cult, implies that Batman might have killed some people while suffering a psychotic break, but that's a specific variation.
Batman nearly kills KGBeast by locking him in a sewer for days. These are specific challenges to Batman's status quo.
>>82385559
>>82385532
In the comics its been a rule for him for a long, long time. Like two years after he first appeared long. Even Frank Millar when he deliberately went for a darker Batman had him not kill.
There was a really good Paul Dini comic where Batman has a psycho drama with his dark side and talks about his no kill rule.
The Arkham Games and the Killing Joke are both about him never killing Joker.
Think of it this way. For a long time DKR was the "dark" take on Batman. And he never killed.
I didn't mind that Bruce was killing, but rather we're just suppose to go with it. Like, I wasn't expecting Ben to break character and tell the audience "just in case you don't know I'm a more jaded, disgruntled Batman" like damn, you couldn't have any allusion to suggest Bruce had changed.
>>82385676
Nice strawman, turd.
>>82385634
>Peter was too cool in ASM
I didn't really get this complaint. To me the traditional form of nerd (that you saw in the Raimi films) is more or less not around anymore. Peter in that film lined up more with what one would consider to be an outcast or loner. A guy who comes into high school, sits by himself or a small group of friends, doesn't talk to alot of people, just comes in does his work and gets the fuck out.
>>82385752
>Nice strawman
That's not a strawman.
Also, Daredevil in that scene is possessed by a demon.
It's also considered the worst Daredevil story arc in the comic's entire history.
>>82385726
>you couldn't have any allusion to suggest Bruce had changed.
Are Marveldrones ACTUALLY this stupid?
>>82385783
There were allusions but they felt hollow. They felt like flat excuses just to have Batman kill people. You never got a sense of how Batman was before he changed.
>>82385752
But even then. That was a major plot point, because Daredevil didn't kill MUCH up to that part. On top of that, he was possessed by a demon spirit or something. That's why that part in the fight is obviously highlighted. Because that's something the normal DD wouldn't do.
>>82385156
People don't want Batman to kill because they don't think it fors with his character, not because they think it's always morally wrong to kill bad guys.
>>82385156
Because DC characters are better known for their CCA-approved characterizations. Fewer Marvel characters seem to have that problem.
>>82385156
I'll take the bait. In this scene and particular point in the MCU's timeframe, what job does Cap have? Oh, right. He is directly working for SHIELD, drawing pay as an agent, and conforms to a set of guidelines involving high threat situations.
Cap can kill that guy (and others) who are clear enemies of SHIELD who are in the process of using lethal force and/or extreme means of sabotage that will directly jeopardize innocent lives and/or fellow SHIELD agents.
What is Batman's job in BvS? What is Superman's job? Who are they accountable to? Oh right, no one involving state or federal law enforcement or security or defense of the nation.
Do either of them work with the police from time to time in the comics (or movies)? Sure they do. It's a gray area of association that is able to exist because NEITHER CHARACTER will kill someone by reputation. It's a matter of implied trust, stemming back to the 60's at the very least for their written source.
Ball's back in your court, baitfag.
>>82385831
Hell on top of that, Batman doesn't work with killing. Because his entire rouge gallery consists of people he's had multiple run ins with and never killed.
Did people have a problem with Batman killing? It was one of the only things that made narrative sense in all of BvS.
He's an old, torn down, unhinged Batman. Robin is dead, Wayne Manor is in ruins. He's seen some shit and is starting to go off the deep end.
Superman being a violent, clueless and hypocritical idiot is the out of character part that is never justified.
>>82385900
It's rather sad seeing such a broken batman. One would have hoped he wouldn't have gone off the deep end.
People wanted to see Batman interact with Superman. Not a broken Batman.
>>82385900
>Superman being a violent, clueless and hypocritical idiot is the out of character part that is never justified.
read this
or don't
>>82385752
>Different things are different
>This is a strawman.
See, this is how everyone knows you're shitposting.
>>82385156
You're going to get very triggered by Civil War then.
Cap, Falcon, Black widow and Scarlet Witch straight up kill enemy soldiers. Falcon shoots a few guys. This is all in the first 10 minutes
>>82385373
Yes, in their own country they are the law.
In their eyes they are righteous.
>>82385361
buckycap a cute
Why doesn't Cap carry a gun anymore? He had guns in WW2.
>>82385955
>read this
>or don't
I'm not reading a manifesto about a movie I didn't enjoy.
I have had literally every variation of every argument about MoS and BvS possible.
They're not good movies. If the production values were worse the poor quality of their screenplays would be 10x more obvious.
>>82385900
The problem in BvS is that Batman's slow fall into becoming a killer vigilante seemingly went unnoticed by everyone but Clark Kent.
The way the story should have been told is to show the differences between Batman's unhinged, 'let them die' approach and Superman's 'we have to be better than them' approach.
Instead we got a killer vigilante facing off against a godlike figure who couldn't seem to decide if he wanted to even be a hero.
>>82386105
He usually doesn't need one. His shield and agility is more than enough for most foes.
He sometimes upgrades to guns when the situation demands it.
>>82385156
1. That's self defense
2. Cap was in the army. He tries not to kill when he can, but he's not going to cry about it if you happen to die while committing a crime..
3. 90% of Batman's history has him going to great lengths to not kill people.
>>82385156
>implying anyone implies this
>>82385955
All the pretentious symbolism in the world doesn't help Superman not be a violent, clueless, hypocritical grouch of an idiot.
Symbolism is not character. You can throw in as many references to King Arthur and Jesus as you want, it means nothing if the character is unworthy of the comparisons.
Anyone find it funny that DD is the only one with a moral code?
>>82386174
It would have been interesting to see Superman try and redeem Batman, or have Batman be a dark mirror for what Superman might become.
But isn't it more interesting to just watch them fight to the death? Who needs dialog, character, and interaction when you have slow mo violence?
>>82385436
So why again Captain Hypocrite always gives morality lessons to Wolverine about "not killing policy"?
>>82386368
No he tells Wolverine not to be kill happy which is different because Wolverine's solution to everything is "Lets kill it"
Also Logan gives Punisher shit for killing so I guess Wolverine is the hypocrite.
Marvel characters have always killed you fucking /tv/ casual
The only chararcter who has a history of not that exists in the MCU is Spiderman and even that can be debatable
>>82385752
That's not what strawman means.
>>82386538
A lot of the street level guys have this concept. If I recall Daredevil does too, but he's not obligated to follow it. None of the heroes in Marvel seem obligated to follow the strict no killing policy.
>>82385900
It makes perfect sense, but having a few nods to the comic events that shape such a Bat is not enough, many people wouldn't get them.
Granted, there's alfred anf the news, and Clark's outrage. But i don't blame peiple for missing the context of those.
>>82385244
Uh yes yes it does in certain circumstances. The whole reason governments aren't allowed to continually sue each other and courts in any country aren't clogged up with tortuous legal arguments stretching back decades dealing with exactly this is because a uniformed soldier, carrying out their duties in time of strife (whether a formal declaration of war has been made), is not considered a murderer under the law.
>>82385373
Yes and no. Under the rules of engagement, strictly speaking, they're not a recognized army since they don't belong to a recognized government; that makes them an insurgency.
Insurgents can be targeted and aren't necessarily illegal (under the rules of war, rather than the rules of the countries they operate in) but they have to be engaged in specific activities to be viable targets. You can't just shoot up a village of Viet Nam Fucking Shit any more and call it mission accomplished, even if you subsequently rape their women on a bed of their own C4.
So yes they are an army of sorts, no they don't have the right to kill people; because even if they were a recognized army from a recognized state, they'd still be doing things which are illegal under international law.
Also if you're so shit-hot on fucking ISIS, call them Daesh, you fucking ISIS cunt.
>>82386105
Because he isn't an active soldier anymore and not in a war.
> captain bat'merikuh and other ways to troll /co
>>82385458
you're right, should've just let the nazi's kill everyone while wagging our fingers and going "shame on you"
Real useful moral fucking high ground, dickless
This thread has more strawmen than the time Crusher Creel fell into a haystack.
>>82386538
He killed Charlie.
>>82385156
Captain has always killed, batman not killing is his thing to differentiate him from being a clone of the shadow.
I wish Cap would use guns more often.
He had no problem shooting Nazi/HYDRA and Loki's brainwashed goons.
>>82385156
>Why is it a problem when Batman kills but not Captain America?
>Why is it okay for Superman to wreck a city in the animated series, but not MoS?
>Why does MoS get critisized for its destruction even though Star Wars blew up entire planets!
Because it doesn't just come down to the end result when you're comparing entirely different stories presented in entirely different ways. Captain America wanted to be a soldier to fight in the war and was prepared to kill people while also making it clear that he didn't want to go to war just for the sake of killing. He's a character who's established as someone who has no issues about killing when he needs to, as opposed to someone like Spidey or Daredevil who will avoid it at all costs.
On the other hand, Batman is a character who's specifically known for typically having a code against killing. On top of that, it presents inconsistencies with the universe because it means that Harley, Joker, and Croc have somehow avoided being gunned down by murderbat. Now with that being said, I assume that Batman's killing sprees were a more recent development after becoming more unhinged due to the events of MoS and it's likely that his rogues just haven't been active in the time where he stopped having a problem with killing. However, that's just assumption since the film doesn't explicitly state that. The point is that you can't take a character who's incredibly well-known for his code against killing and then be surprised when audiences react negatively to seeing him kill people.
>>82385156
>>Implying Marvel heroes don't kill.
Who is implying that?
>Implying Marvel heroes don't kill.
>literally nobody implied this
>>82385769
To be fair, he was also a pretty smooth talker for someone who was supposed to be a bit more of an awkward loner. And being good at skateboarding didn't necessarily ruin him for being too cool, but it was a really unnecessary addition to his character.
>>82386538
>Marvel characters have always killed you fucking /tv/ casual
Didn't Hawkeye divorce his wife because she killed her rapist.
>>82387642
Garfield played a pretty good clone of L in ASM, though. Skateboarding kind of works with his character, I guess? A modern teen in NYC.
Parker was the least of those film's problems.
>>82386445
>Wolverine
>Ever being a right/not a hypocrite.
>>82385811
The whole movie is about feeling powerless both against Superman and about his own mission as a hero and deterrent to crime.
>>82387720
Ultimate Hawkeye (who MCU is more based on) killed a buildings worth of people in his first appearance and killed Black Widow without a second thought
>>82385156
>its ok when Cap does it, he is a soldier and knows when to kill
>superman should've never killed Zodd, he should've find a way somehow, he should always find a way
>>82387923
>superman should've never killed Zodd, he should've find a way somehow, he should always find a way
Such as?
>>82388118
exactly my point.
>>82388118
Some anon once responded to me that a good way was for Superman to take out Zod's eyes, tore out both of Zod's arms and legs, and they let Zod rot blind and without being able to move in a dark prison where no sunlight can reach.
This is good because that way Superman can keep his moral.
>>82386733
>muh international law
no amount of paperwork can make something right that's wrong
fuck off jew
>>82386843
Yes Super should have just wagged his finger at Zod going "shame on you"
also Hitler was RIGHT
>>82385726
>you couldn't have any allusion to suggest Bruce had changed.
Fucking torture is too subtle now? Jesus H. Christ, America.
Marvel bent over backwards once to say Cap never killed anyone. Even during the war. It was canon. Then Brubaker went "that is stupid" and had Cap kill in the war and turned Bucky from a plucky boy sidekick to a cold blooded assassin who did all the really nasty shit on the downlowbecause Steve was too square for it.
>>82385323
Ultimates would be what we would have gotten if they decided to make the MCU edgy and M18.
With the expection of Spider-Man Marvel heroes have never made a big deal about not killing or having no kill rules like DC heroes often do. In the same way that the Marvel Universe is more grounded in reality, they treat killing people in battle as a cop or a soldier would -- a necessary evil which they're willing to burden.
Think about the big Marvel heroes for a second. Captain America is a soldier -- it's highly unlikely that he didn't kill people during WW2 and I don't see why he wouldn't kill people every now and then today.
Iron Man, meanwhile, is a former weapons designer who wears a tank. Again, no reason why he wouldn't kill people at all.
Thor comes from a culture where there's glory in death by battle and where he routinely slays monsters and enemies.
The Hulk is a literal rampaging monster. Black Widow is a spy and assassin. Wolverine is the best he is at what he does. Don't get me started on the Punisher.
Compare all of those to DC heroes who regularly preach about not killing and even enforce their rules on other heroes, cutting them out if they ever cross that line. Of course people are going to say "that's bullshit" when a character who is defined by a reluctance to kill like Batman turns around and blows everyone away in his Batmobile of Death.
>>82385156
Seriously dude. Batman with guns is SO far down the list of things wrong with BvS.
/co/ doesn't have a problem with heroes who have to make the weighty decision of balancing the lives of his enemies vs the lives of the innocent. Hell, if you like that kind of story element, Daredevil season 2 is right over at Netflix. Franks aplenty!
We're more troubled by all of the other terrible things Snyder does.
You know:
>Un-relatable characters
>Incomprehensible plot (Fuck off with "you just don't get it" because YOU don't get it either. You just want to get it, but you can't because there's nothing to get. It's just a bad script)
>Depressing atmosphere
>Cart before the horse mentality of shoehorning in future movie plots before resolving THIS movie's plot
>Unnecessary dream sequences
>And a complete lack of respect for anything these characters stand for
If they fix that, they can have Batman stroll into battle with a frickin' AK for all I care.
>>82388559
>right
>wrong
>Jew
There's your (You).
>>82389116
>Seriously dude. Batman with guns is SO far down the list of things wrong with BvS.
>/co/ doesn't have a problem with heroes who have to make the weighty decision of balancing the lives of his enemies vs the lives of the innocent. Hell, if you like that kind of story element,
Say that to Man of Steel.
>>82385156
Weren't they brainwashed soldiers?
>>82389116
>Incomprehensible plot (Fuck off with "you just don't get it" because YOU don't get it either. You just want to get it, but you can't because there's nothing to get. It's just a bad script)
I'm sorry to say this, but... you just don't get it, man.
>>82389170
>>/co/ doesn't have a problem with heroes who have to make the weighty decision of balancing the lives of his enemies vs the lives of the innocent. Hell, if you like that kind of story element,
>Say that to Man of Steel.
Hmm... good point.
Though that was more a case of "why did the screen writers think it was a good idea to have Superman fighting a giant metal spider on the other side of the planet while Metropolis is getting FUCKED?" And the reason (besides John Peters weird fetish for Giant Spiders) is because Synder wanted to emphasies the HORRORS of a scenario like that. But if you want disaster porn, you go to a disaster porn flick. We go to a Superman flick to see Superman save people, be a hero you know. Though I don't blame MoS Superman, which Synder seemed to think was the right idea for going forward with the sequel. I blame the scriptwriters. So the sequel should have been "Batman and Superman Vs Terrible Screenwriters".
>>82389180
Actually just enemies of SHIELD. Not like Cap hasn't had to kill enemy soldiers before.
>>82389203
Fuck off!
Or better yet, explain it. Explain before god and more importantly 4chan what was the point of BvS.
>>82385156
Cap is a soldier.
Superman synonymous with The no kill rule.
>>82385156
Captain America kills because he's a solider. Batman often has a no kill rule which I like but honestly he's so off the walls batshit crazy, I don't mind when it's shelved. My problem with BvS/Man Of Steel is that Superman mindlessly kills people with no remorse or care. He's just a big brute and that's not reflective of his character. The no kill rule is a tennant of Superman, whereas Batman it's a reccurring plot point. I'm fine with most other heroes killing just not muh supes
>>82387864
He was basically Bullseye with the shit he dd like that thing with his fingernails.
>>82389491
Superman really has 2 types of villians: people he could speed blitz and fucking slaughter and Doomsday types who he has to go balls out with to stand a chance (World of Cardboard). With the first type he doesn't want to kill them and he is able to endure their bullshit until he finds a way to stop them non-lethally. Darkseid and Doomsday he goes all out because lethal force is the bare minimum to stop these guys.
>>82385559
Yes, every movie so far has been getting it wrong. That doesn't justify the most recent one continuing the trend.
The only problem I have with batman killing is why the fuck is joker still alive, or any of his villains.
I am aware Batman technically killed Ras al Ghul in Batman Begins but it wasnt nearly as brutal as BVS.
Batman crashes a car filled with bad guys (which is fine) but then he drives passed it, hooks the car onto the batmobile, proceeds to drive the batmobile with the car attached, then finally launching the car into another car cause them both to explode.
While this scene is badass but come on, easily could have just crashed the car and been done with it.
>>82385723
What a fucking hack, I swear...
He really is like those 90s writters who read Dark Knight and Watchmen and only noticed the violence, is he?
It's weird how wanting DC to be less like Marvel makes you a shill for Marvel now.
Used to be DC was where you went for the uncompromisingly good guys, the heroes that didn't need a lot of moral flaws and ambiguous motivations and angst to be better men. That was Marvel's deal.
But now? Superman has to be morose and cynical because that's "real". Next they'll give Batman a drinking problem and we'll all have to act like it's the best idea ever. Demon's Head in a Bottle, coming 2017!
>>82388118
>>82387923
Superman using his hands to cover his eyes causing his hand to burn but ultimately blinding an crippling Zod, a testament to show Superman willing to suffer for the planet he calls home while npt jepordizing his morals. Then using his kryptonian ship as a prision of sorts
See? It's not fucking hard
>>82389434
>Or better yet, explain it. Explain before god and more importantly 4chan what was the point of BvS.
>
>
>
Yeah that's what I thought.
Punk ass bitch.
>>82390197
Those who don't learn their history and such.
>>82390222
So Superman blinded and crippled a guy leaving him to rot in a prison, but that is better because at least he didn't sullied his hand?
That's awful.
>>82387642
>To be fair, he was also a pretty smooth talker for someone who was supposed to be a bit more of an awkward loner.
But here's the question. Is he actually supposed to be?
You gotta remember that Peter not Spider-man but puny Peter Parker, has enough swagger to net Gwen Stacy, Liz Allen, Mary Jane Watson, Betty Brant, and a dozen other chicks. In fact the ONLY woman he's been with that likes Spider-man more than Peter is Black Cat. He was never filled with spaghetti he was just seen as kind of a flake because he'd always run off in the middle of a date to fight crime.
Raimi was the one that went full Urkel with the guy. Broad strokes are necessary in an adaptation but you don't want to go *too* broad.
>>82385955
lol
no one actually read all this right? is this really what is needed for defending something?
>Implying Marvel heroes don't kill.
Nobody implied that ever.
>>82385156
Well different context too. The Avengers are basically in a war zone. Batman's on the normal civilian streets. In that case it's better to try and let the cops clean up the mess then becoming a bigger problem with them having to hunt down another killer.
It's a soldier/cop thing really.
Snyder watched the Superman freak-out in Vs The Elite but didn't watch until the end.
>>82385156
It is because the moral choice to not kill has been embedded in Batman and Superman comicssince the beginning for supes, and almost the beginning for Bats. That has never been the case for most Marvel characters. If the bad guy surenders, he's arrested, if he fights the the death, well then he is obliged. Marvel and DC don't tell the same stories except where they rip each others stories, which goes both ways. It's apples and oranges.
>>82390288
Superman wouldn't leave Zod to rot, or at least a Superman not written by a hack i.e. Snyder.
Supes would've at least tried to get through to him and rehabilitate, Zod would still hate him regardless because he's an asshole but I digress
>>82385156
Apples to Oranges, OP.
Cap is a soldier, he kills the fuck out of people when necessary
Batman has a strong personal no-kill code through most of his history. Most interpret this as an essential part of the character.
>>82389434
>>82390250
The movie was an exploration about power and how people related with power/powerlessness.
Superman, Batman and Lex Luthor, they all feel powerless facing the circunstancies they're in and fight to either gain or regain their power.
In the movie Lex Luthor uses Lois Lane to test his suspicion about her connection with Superman, by using her as bait for Superman. He then uses that to ruin Superman image and give the congress the means to call Superman on his involvement in a political charged situation.
Then knowing who Superman is he starts to play both Superman and Batman betting them against each other. He wants to ruin Superman both in image and physically.
His plans start to fail once Batman robs him of the kryptonite, but by then he had already gotten himself another way to kill Superman.
The problem is that Batman fucked him up again by playing nice with Superman.
>>82390551
So people die, Zod is crippled giving him more reasons to kill more people, all so Superman can feel better about himself? That's disgusting.
No, i rather Superman be a man and put Zod down sparing more deaths. Fuck Superman feelings. People's lives should be more important to him than his own self image. My hero isn't a faggot who cares about his conscious than other people's lives.
>>82385244
No, but being government sanctioned does. Although there would be some serious legal issues, as federal troops are by law not allowed to operate as civil law enforcement (Posse Comitatus). He would have to be in the National Guard and activated on the orders of the governor of whatever state he was operating in.
DCucks are turbo sperg moralfags, that's why.
You know it's a shit thread when all the salient coherent rebuttals are ignored.
>>82385458
>No amount of paperwork or badges gives you the right to murder people
Someone please tell that to the cops here in America, for fuck's sake
>>82385156
silly anon, its okay if you kill enemies of Freedom, which means US enemies (and therefore, Israel)
>>82390805
tell that to superman
>>82385532
Holy shit, what fucking alternate timeline did you just arrive from. I mean fuck, you could cite Burton Batman, but that's about it.
>>82385156
Because in Marvels established universe of comic books and movies and games their heroes do kill.
But they also save people.
People complain about how civilians died in the Avengers movies compared to Man of Steel and Batman V. Superman.
The difference is Batman and Superman are both non killers it is a part of their character. And when it comes to Batman he doesnt because that would be him just becoming as bad as the Joker.
Also in the Avengers films and spin offs the film makers show them actually making a point to save people.
In Man of Steel Superman slams Zod through skyscraper after skyscraper bringing them tumbling down one after another without even attempting to save them.
Fuck even the Transformers movies show the heroes saving civilians.
Basically the Marvel Universe its shown certain characters kill.
DC's most famous characters Batman and Superman in there first onscreen team up. Murder and bring down cities like its nothing. Two characters who generally dont kill and make a point to save people do the exact opposite.
>>82385752
You're literally fucking retarded.
>>82390693
>all so Superman can feel better about himself?
Holy shit. Are you literally this stupid? Since when were we talking about Superman's feeling or his image?
He doesn't want to kill ANYBODY you tard, his thing to be an ideal to eventually emulate, to "join him in the sun".
>>82385259
Maybe go read some comics and find out?
>>82391076
But he NEEDS to kill Zod, and he did, because he isn't a faggot.
>>82391045
DC also doesn't have enemies that could be outgunned by your average small redneck town nor does it need to have three heroes stop during an alien invasion to open the doors on a bus.
>>82385532
Which comics?
>>82390615
So basically Lex's solution to "Superman makes me feel powerless" is to make an even stronger, even stupider version of Superman to kill him. Why not just make Krytonite Armor so HE can beat Superman without relying on a dangerous retard?
inb4 "Because Batman stole his Kryptonite."
So steal it back. He apparently knows who Batman is. It's probably a better idea to send mercs to steal green rocks from a guy in a Bat Suit then it is to make a giant monster or to pick a fight with Superman. I mean we all know that the real Superman wouldn't straight up murder Lex, but this isn't the REAL Superman. This is broody McMurder Man. What if he just straight up snapped Lex's neck?
inb4 "Because Lex Luthor is wacky"
...Why?
>>82385156
Not all characters have a no kill rule. People aren't mad at bvs because superheroes are killing people, they're mad because it's out of character you dumbass. Go read some fucking comics and you might not have to ask such stupid questions.
>>82390615
How do you ruin something that was already ruined?
>>82390693
I agree.
Superman should have either gone for kill shots the moment the first building fell. Instead he has what is ostensibly a slap fight with Zod for all the damage it does to either of them while the city around them crumbles and Supes doesn't even react until that family is dragged in front of him.
He doesn't have to like it, but when the villain refuses to target him specifically and have the fight elsewhere, there's no reason to have a prolonged smack down with those kind of consequences at stake.
>>82391137
Because the ship presented him with a chance to kill Superman with an abomination of one of his people done by Lex's hands. Thus giving him actual power while also defiling something connected to Superman.
>>82388118
Plenty of ways. Blood thirsty faggots pretending this is real life refute them everytime. Hell, they'd refute them even if it was in the film. That's how fucking blood thirsty, idiotic and small they are.
>>82385532
>mah Burton
>Muh few times in the Nolan films
>Mah Golden age comics
Fuck you. Batman has always been defined by his no kill rule, right down to his origin. Even Miller sometimes gets this right
>>82391179
The guy you quoted. I agree with you. The fight dragged too long and Superman should have killed Zod waaay before.
>>82385283
Fuck off sonygger
>>82391172
Superman still had people defending him and he was keeping himself out of political situations. Lex managed to drag him into one and tried to utterly ruin his image.
>>82391220
I fucking hate people like you. You aren't Superman fans but you wish to break the character anyway. Fuck you.
>>82391106
>Characters need to kill otherwise how will people know how grown up and mature our movies are
>>82391258
Superman killed before in the comics when necessary, including Zod. There was no redemption for Zod. He was going to kill everybody. Imprisoning him would only postpone more deaths.
>>82390046
He said that if he had directed Dark Knight, there would have been a scene where Bruce Wayne get raped by gang members.
Since thats "powerful writing"
>>82390615
>Snyder is 2deep4u
>>82391296
Shut up. You can cherry pick stories from an almost 80 year character all you want but his long standing characteristic is this is an impossible man you call on to do the impossible, he's the hero of other heroes and he doesn't kill. More comics validate that than anything else. I'm not here to argue with you, Superman fans have been arguing then since MOS.
>>82391248
>Superman still had people defending him
Oh yeah, that one throwaway line is such a stirring defense.
>>82391333
>He said that if he had directed Dark Knight, there would have been a scene where Bruce Wayne get raped by gang members.
What the fuck???
>>82385156
>Captain America is a US sanctioned soldier that was killing Nazi's in WWII before he was a superhero
>Batman is a rich US citizen that beats up thugs and the only time you see him kill is when it involves character development through moral dilemmas
Did you even watch Captain America: The First Avenger?
Also I enjoyed BvS and even I can tell it had bigger flaws than Batman killing.
>>82390222
>his hand to burn but ultimately blinding an crippling Zod,
How do you or Kal know it just wouldn't burn though, and he doing all of this while already struggling to hold Zod down.
>>82391192
Yes it's all sounds very pretty but it doesn't make any sense. It's trying so hard to twist these characters to get them into this situation. It is the textbook definition of a bad script.
Hell halfway through Lex just abandons his "amazing"subtly influence Supes and Bats to fight plan and just kidnaps Superman's mom.
It's like the script writers were getting bored of their own story and just decided to skip to the end. Which is what would logically happen when you spend over an hour dicking around instead of actually telling a narrative.
Look maybe there's something to the whole "Deeper core" of the movie. Some germ of an idea about Superman having to come to terms with being a man and rising above it, but it certainly wasn't presented in a way that the audience could access in this movie.
I wonder if Ayn Rand has ever said anything about Superman.
>>82391439
>but it certainly wasn't presented in a way that the audience could access in this movie.
Get ready for a bunch of autistic shitposting about "spoonfeeding"
>>82391371
>writers should always create a safespace for superman so he always finds a way somehow
>superman should never face actual impossible situations were he has to make the hard choices because it could destroy the image of the impeccable hero manchildren have of him
>meanwhile Cap kills with no remorse and he is somehow the better figure of hope
>>82391439
>Hell halfway through Lex just abandons his "amazing"subtly influence Supes and Bats to fight plan and just kidnaps Superman's mom.
Yes, because Batman had stolen his kryptonite that he went through a lot of shit to get.
>Some germ of an idea about Superman having to come to terms with being a man and rising above it
It was more about Superman dealing with his guilt and the fact that he can't control the outcome of things, only try to do good.
>>82391296
>There was no redemption for Zod. He was going to kill everybody.
It's almost like there was an entire story, about questioning Superman's ideals and whether or not they're practical.
And it's almost like the story itself mentioned those ideals are worth hanging onto even if they seem impossible.
Why would you ever not kill a bad guy?
>>82391552
That's a terrible story done by a fanboy butthurt about a good comic. Fuck that story.
Superman has killed before. Even Grant Morrison wrote Superman killing.
>>82388487
Couldn't Zod still fly like that?
>>82391526
>Characters histories don't matter and should be ignored in favor of something different just for the sake of it
>Context means nothing outside of what is presented on the surface and should not be looked at any deeper level
>>82391526
>>writers should always create a safespace for superman so he always finds a way somehow
It's called fiction for a reason.
>>82385156
cap doesnt have a no kill policy labeled a no kill policy.
iron man kills some people to whats you point. like a whole cave worth of people and whiplash
its not them being killed thats the issue its the reboot trilogy for batman establishing a code that batman uses
>>82391571
What if it's a super pot dealer who's never killed anyone?
A super tax evader?
What about a super pedophile?
>>82391666
>>82391677
>why noone like my impeccable favorite character who can do no wrong and should never change ever
>>82391603
>Grant "Let's turn Animal Man into an existential horror" Morrison
>>82385156
Batman killed/branded just so Supes could have a more righteous reason to intervene in Bat's vigilantism just so there would be some found reason in their fighting. Superman follows the rules to be accepted by everyone. Batman does whatever the fuck he wants & is feared. Different Ideologies send them clashing.
This is an aged Batman who now feels that his half measures got Robin killed & has pushed aside his "no kill" policy in favor for more brutal force.
Also most of the time this isn't MCUcks criticizing the movie but so much as fags crying that this isn't a 1:1 adaption of JL cartoons.
>>82391735
>What about a super pedophile?
Are you implying a regular pedophile isn't already bad enough?
>>82391748
Yeah, because Snyder's version was great.
>>82391666
>Every character should just be the same and never change
being iconic is honestly the worst thing that can happen to a fictional character.
>>82385156
we don't care that batman kills. we care that he kills and yet the joker is still alive.
>>82391748
>Let's turn everything different because who the fuck cares about the characters or their backgrounds amirite?
Because that worked out so well for Catwoman and Fan4stic right?
>>82391785
But even in Texas pedophiles don't get the death penalty is my point.
>>82385156
not sure if shit tier bait or serious
You do realize that Batman doesn’t kill people because it’s been a long-established rule of character, right?I mean, I don’t really give a shit, butmaking Batman kill people is a perversion of the character.
>>82391808
>we care that he kills and yet the joker is still alive.
You know every Joker isn't standing infront of the Batmoblie goading Bruce into kill him.
>>82391807
Literally nobody is saying that.
There's a difference from making some changes to a character, to completely changing who they are and what they do
Should I watch the Avengers, even though I really only care about Cap?
>>82391801
>Yeah, because Snyder's version was great.
>implying a superman like sup-autists want him to be, would be any less of a borefest
>>82391815
>Catwoman and Fan4stic
>implying every other adaption has been 100% faithfull to the source material
>implying Snyder Superman was as far from the source material as fant4stic or catwoman
>>82391938
Yes.
>>82391955
You know you don't really need this board to argue with yourself.
>>82385752
Are you actually trying to argue that Daredevil kills people right now? Are you actually that fucking stupid?
>>82391867
No, but every Joker is insane enough to do it.
Batman killing the Joker is his ultimate victory, proving once and for all they aren't different. That Batman only has thin veneer of morals and deep down is just as screwed in the head as he is, he's only "one bad day" away from breaking.
This is just another reason why Zack shouldn't be in charge of these characters, because even if you buy his bullshit "Batman kills because he lost Robin" excuse. That proves the Joker right, that deep down he isn't different at all.
>>82390009
He only killed Ras al Ghul because he gets the handwave of being able to come back to life. He never did but it was always a possibility.
>>82392097
>if you kill you are no different than him
Why does it always have to come down to Batman killing Joker? Gotham should be full of people who are sick of his shit and ready to murder him.
>>82386445
Yeah, it's a sliding morality / bullshit scale
>Cap
Only kill in self-defense or to save others from imminent harm, but even then, if you have the powers or abilities to takedown non-lethally, you should do that instead, try and act within the law and with oversight if the law itself is not morally wrong
>Logan
Kill all present or potential threats when said threats make it clear they intend harm to you or others, or when a killing would balance out at saving lives, sometimes you have to act outside the law for the greater good
>Punisher
Kill all people whose criminality crosses a certain moral line, ignore all laws that hinder this
>>82392191
Cap killed about 140 people in THe First avenger
>>82392141
Yes.
Thank you for making an overly simplified version of the point.
>>82392241
Why do you know that? Why do you think it matters?
>>82386342
DD is red Batman so it makes sense.
>>82392241
where do you even get this number?
>>82392241
...before or after he volunteered to be a sanctioned soldier in a war?
You'd have more lucky trying to criticise the movie Iron Man, who has non-lethal tech but instead chooses to smoke people when he probably doesn't need to.
>>82390197
In BvS, Alfred did make a comment on the state of their wine cellar, and about Bruce leaving nothing for future generations of the Wayne family. If there is a future Wayne family.
>>82385333
also in Avengers he uses a rifle to supress the mind controlled soldiers
>>82391528
>Yes, because Batman had stolen his kryptonite that he went through a lot of shit to get.
See:
>>82391137
>>82385323
>posting from Ultimates to show edgy portrayal
>doesn't understand that was the whole point of the book and not mainstream canon
>not posting Ultimate Cap
DC moviefag who doesn't know comics
>>82385244
Go back to Tumblr.
>>82392241
Those were Nazis, they don't count.
>>82385283
>Captain America fought in World War 2. He's a soldier so there's no reason for him not to kill.
>Iron Man was a manufacturer of weapons. In his first film, he fought terrorist who used his weapons. No reason for him not to kill
>Black Widow is a spy. No reason for her not to kill
>Hawkeye works for Shield. No reason for him not to kill
>Hulk is literally a monster. No reason for him not to kill
>Thor has had many battles where he has slayed beats and men defending Asgard. No reason for him not to kill
I don't get what's so hard to understand
>>82393538
>>82393538
Nazis are people too
Alright, Anon. This is probably bait, but here's your real answer since you're apparently a teenager or a DC autist.
The killing and death in these movies and the reactions to them is an issue of tone in terms of acting and directing, as well as what is discussed in the script. If we're talking movies and not the comic books (where killing has been treated wildly differently in the Marvel U depending on the era and writer), then here's the difference: none of the Marvel Studios productions have made a real issue out of the killing of combatants, with the minor exception of The First Avenger. Iron Man kills terrorists in his first movie. Thor kills frost giants in warfare. Cap uses a gun in TFA. It's a reality of the world they inhabit, and it actually places them much closer to the norm of pG-13 action movies. Think about it Anon; in Star Wars, Luke, Leia and Han all kill Stormtroopers. Shit, the real Han shoots first mothafucka. In the Lord of the Rings movies, the Fellowship mows through Orcs like a well-oiled machine. James Bond's killing has increasingly been portrayed in stark, bloody terms. Good guys sometimes have to kill bad guys because it is kill or be killed. Marvel Studios has basically lived in that bloodless pG-13 realm that all those other megafranchises occupy; i.e., the Hulk trashing those Hydra goons at the beginning of AoU or Tony's armors killing the AIM terrorists. Whedon and the Russos in particular will try to show them avoiding casualties or killing when possible (think Iron Man shooting those dudes in the legs at the beginning of AoU), but like another Anon said earlier, it's like they're soldiers or cops: sometimes you have to be willing to use deadly force to save lives. And guess what? Audiences accept that because they don't give them any indication that they shouldn't. The movies feel light and the death isn't ruminated upon by the script or actors, so it isn't by registered that way by the audience.
Compare that now to the DC movies
>>82385156
>Uhhh, Freddy Krueger kills people all the time, so why can't Superman tear people in half for fun???
>>82385156
The difference is that Batman comics make a big deal about his unwillingness to kill the Joker jesus christ man read some fucking comics or go back to /tv/
>>82393570
(cont.)
These new movies are coming out after the wild success of the Nolan movies, which made big thematic hay out of the no killing rule. Unlike with Cap, Iron Man, Thor and the Avengers as a whole, Batman has had a clear and consistent no-killing code throughout his history (obviously there are exceptions, but any serious study of the books will tell you it is the overwhelming norm). Nolan obviously picked up on that thread in Begins and tested it heavily in TDK. I don't recall it playing a huge role in TDKR, but he had pretty much put the issue to bed in TDK when Bruce saved the Joker and proved himself "incorruptible." It was a big deal in those movies and the script and Bale brought the issue and his struggle with it to the forefront. Now all of a sudden you've got a Superman movie with that same kind of heavy, pseudo-philosophical tone. MoS isn't very light or joyful to begin with and then you get to the third act and it's DARK MAYN. I recently rewatched the World Engine stuff and you literally see humans kicking around in the air before being slammed down to the ground in a really horrifying fashion. Lots of screaming, people covered in blood and dust, etc. It managed to evoke 9/11 better than almost any other Hollywood movie I've ever seen, but is that a good thing? For a Superman movie? Then BvS comes along and we see Batman for the first time since the Nolan movies and he's doing Dark Knight Returns and All-Star Batman and Robin stuff. The vehicular mayhem didn't bug me all that much. Shooting the gas tank, though? That felt off. First of all, you've got a guy pointing a flamethrower at Ma Kent, which is just insane (the Lex Luthor snuff photos with her crying and gagged also helps add to the grim and vile tone, you know), and you've got Superman stabbing a monster with a spear.
>>82393851
(cont.)
Now you've got Batman using a gun (not counting any armaments on vehicles, dude) in a live-action movie for the first time ever and he's SETTING A MOTHERFUCKER ON FIRE. Not saying the dude didn't deserve it, but that isn't the character that people know. And Anon, you can do that really retarded thing where you're like, "Well what were they supposed to do?!" but you're wrong. Superman shouldn't snap Zod's neck not because it's wrong in that scenario (although that scene begs the question of if he's strong enough to twist his neck in such a way as to break his spine, how can he not turn his face away from the family...) but because HE SHOULDN'T BE IN THAT SCENARIO. THE SCRIpT MAKES THIS SHIT HAppEN ANON. THESE MOVIES AREN'T DOCUMENTARIES. If Zack didn't have such a hard-on for shittily strip-mining all Batman's cool action moments from TDKR, then he would't have had him shooting a dude's flamethrower with a machine gun and letting him burn to death. It happens because he wants it to happen. Just like people don't feel dirty when Cap knocks a guy off the hellicarrier or Thor splodes a rock alien because the filmmakers don't want them to.
The Marvel movies clearly want audiences to have fun, Anon. I'm not sure what Zack Snyder wants audiences to feel about his DC movies, but fun doesn't seem to be high on the list.
>>82393570
>>82393851
>>82394059
>>82385156
Point: Marvel Heroes don't have a No Kill Policy like Bats & Supes
Counter Point: Heroes don't kill.
Which is it?
>>82388875
>The Hulk is a literal rampaging monster.
That never actually killed anyone because ~math~Which is one of the dumbest things I've ever read in a comic period
>>82385259
Cap shoves a Hydra soldier into a propeller in First Avenger
>>82392097
>Batman killing the Joker is his ultimate victory, proving once and for all they aren't different
It's more driving him insane, which can be achieved with out trying to get Bruce to murder him.
>>82393570
>>82393851
>>82394059
Dang dude. Dead on
>>82387175
>>82394644
Are you willingly this ignorant or just stupid?
>>82388118
Slamming Zod's face into the ground would have solved the immediate problem of him lazering those people and would be the first thing any normal person would think to do in that situation if they didn't want to kill Zod.
>>82385458
As a soldier this hurts my feeelings.
>>82385187
Snyder out
>>82391955
Snyder Superman is pretty analogous to Fan4stic actually. Same "let's take something bright and campy and SERIOUS THE FUCK OUT OF IT BEAUSE WE'RE MATURE LOOK HOW MATURE WE ARE CAN'T YOU TAKE US SERIIOUS YET"
The only reason BvS didn't tank as bad is because of residual goodwill the characters have. Goodwill that Snyder is quickly burning through.
>>82394525
heroes do, in fact, kill. The "heroes don't kill" fallacy is a very recent invention.
>>82395511
At the latest, the concept was born of the CCA period
>>82385578
He also blows up buildings with people inside, throws them off bell towers, stuffs bombs down their pants and throws them down storm drains, lights them on fire, or have you never seen the Burton movies? Movie Batman has always been a killer.
>>82385156
Simple:
Cap started off a soldier, and will always be a soldier of liberty.
The mainstream Batman is from old Batman, the one from the CCA's extreme Christian values. That Batman is basically the Adam West Batman, with a strong "no kill, don't do unnecessary harm" code.
Original Batman was a detective vigilante that tracked down criminals that was above the law or got off on a technicality, and killed them. But that Batman was lost when the CCA came around and turned all the capes into Dudley Dorights. And it is that Batman that entered into mainstream knowledge.
CCA is long gone now, but its effects on what classic heroes should be is still with us.
>>82395644
Yeah, it was pretty much implemented universally due to censorshit. In some cases, it adds to the story, but usually, it detracts from it, because things eventually just stop making sense and the reader ends up asking themselves: "OK, why isn't this fucker dead already" with some villains.
>>82395752
Yes because every director should continue to follow the precedent set by Tim "I don't read comics" Burton.
>>82395511
>>82394525
>it's okay when MCU does it.
>>82385532
rrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggggggghhhhhhhht
>>82396087
>the finish of batman
Freudian or is he talking about his paint job?
>>82395756
Actually the no killing thing for Batman was an editorial decision that predates the CCA. It started almost immediately after Robin was introduced.
Current mainstream Batman pretty much traces back to the 70s, with the '89 movie and the animated series as the two biggest non-comic influences to his character (both of which explicitly draw from the 70s portrayal)
>>82396087
>>82385156
Because it's Captain America, essentially just a strong human, killing a Nazi while Superman is FUCKING SUPERMAN.
>>82385156
Captain America killed
Superman murdered
If you don't know the difference between a righteous killing and a cold blooded murder. Then you need therapy
>>82385752
>mom i posted again
>>82396622
Superman didn't kill Zod in cold blood.
>>82396720
Go see a therapist
>>82392419
For some reason I thought that had to do with frivolous spending on the Batman front.
>>82396737
Killing a mass murder who sicced a world engine on Earth intending to make humans extinct is murder but killing a soldier just doing his job is cool.
>>82396915
You're going to murder someone some day if you don't see a therapist
>>82396974
I'll murderyour butthole
