Why do so many people hate final crisis?
Mostly because they're plebs who think it doesn't make sense
I don't hate it, but Superman Beyond 3D is the only part worth rereading. Well that and some of the Johns tie-in minis that have little to do with the main plot.
I don't hate it, but I think it was a waste of time.
And it's yet another entry in Grant Morrison's long series of violent, grim and edgy "Comics Should Be Optimistic & Upbeat" comics.
>>82008124
Superman's face in that panel makes it look like one of his parents was from Yautja Prime.
because of that image you posted OP.
See faggots have this self delusion that Batman can never lose or be killed so the Idea of Batman losing and Superman having to rescue everyone triggers people.
>>82008364
no because it was a piece of shit so concered with wanking itself off over how meta it was that it forgot to be coherant and have the villain actually set up in the main series instead of pointless stuff like some shitty japs, or alternate supergirl and checkmate
>>82008124
They didn't get it.
I didnt get what was going on for like, all of it.
Still thought it was pretty interesting thoughstill only halfway through the aftermath comics though because honestly i have no idea whats going on
>>82008124
They like action driven crap like Blackest Night or Siege.
>>82008124
They didn't get it.
Also, honestly, its not particularly good. Definitely some of the weakest examples of Morrison's modern work.
>>82008364
Are you retarded? Final Crisis is loved by most Batfags
You are proecting your hate on the character
>>82008428
>my head hurts
>>82008507
This. They dumb.
>>82009061
I don't like events at all.
Final Crisis, Blackest Night and Siege are all the same crap to me.
>>82008162
>Mostly because they're plebs who think it doesn't make sense
This. Only literally stupid people hate Final Crisis.
>>82009657
This. Events get so obsessed with EVERYTHING WILL BE DIFFERENT FOREVER that they become ridiculously unfocused and it just feels like a series of "then this happened, then this happened, then this happened."
Yeah this has the advantage of Morrison's usual meta analysis, but it's nothing that he hasn't done before and better in his other comics.
>>82009657
>Final Crisis, Blackest Night and Siege are all the same crap to me.
I know baby, don't worry about this, you will grow up some day :)
>>82008230
This. For someone who believes in the optimism of comics, this nigga is edgier than Millar's early work.
>>82008162
>>82009068
>>82009562
>>82009703
Do you honestly think that final crisis is any deeper or more complicated than any of Morrison's non-cape comics? Or is this just the first comic you've read that said anything other than a description of people punching each other?
It's a little disjointed and it took me awhile to get that it's disjointed on purpose because all of reality is crumbling.
Well, that and that's just how Morrison writes.
>>82009928
There's no talking to Morrisonfags. Just hide the thread and move on.
Because Manke didnt draw the entire series
You mean other than the fact that it gives elitists assholes something to espouse as great just for the satisfaction of acting superior.
It's just a poorly told story. It's structure is near non existent, the art is mediocre at best, the paneling is boring and the ending is such a far up it's own ass concept that it you'd have to cut holes in it's nipples just for it to see.
>>82009885
nice meme grant now fuck off
>"Nothing is so terrible as a pretentious movie. A movie that aspires for something really terrific and doesn’t pull it off is shit. Its scum. [That’s the] filmmaker’s greatest horror. Is to be pretentious."
—Francis Ford Coppola
Just replace comic with film and you have my feelings on Final Crisis.
>>82010061
>It's just a poorly told story
I know plebs think all structural changes are mistakes
>>82010061
>It's structure is near non existent
You mean it wasnt linear? the structure was based on THEMES not on narrative.
>the art is mediocre at best
No one will deny that
>the paneling is boring
It's not DKR, but is in general really good.
>and the ending is such a far up it's own ass concept that it you'd have to cut holes in it's nipples just for it to see.
Plebs will be plebs.
>>82008124
It makes you think. Your average comic book reader is incredibly stupid and is very oriented towards mindless action and feminism.
>>82009955
Hell I'm a huge Morrisonfag and I don't even like final crisis that much. It's definitely one of his weakest works.
>>82010304
>feminism
Just stop anon
It wasn't Marvel.
>>82008162
>>82009703
>>82010220
>pleb this
>pleb that
We're talking about Big Two superhero comics-- the McDonald's and Burger King of comics-- essentially the medium's most plebeian publishers and most plebeian genre. And on top of that it's an event, the most dumbed-down, heavily-marketed and editor-meddled type of comics they offer. You can say that Final Crisis was good, you can say that Final Crisis was bad, but there's no denying its target audience is plebs.
You're not impressing anyone.
>>82010353
That's not Kill Your Boyfriend.
>>82010357
Kelly Sue DeWhatever is nominated for an Eisner for Bitch Planet.
It wasn't Final Crisis that bugged me. It was the immediate "Batman isn't dead he's just Batmaning his way through time to get back to the present" afterwards. It was so close to the end of Final Crisis that Final Crisis gets lumped in with it.
It was GOAT.
>>82010484
And?
The problem with Final Crisis isn't that you have to think to understand it, it's that the story and entertainment of the movie can only be found in the understanding.
It's a bunch of self-referential dialogue and attempts at making something more mythical than it really is that the average reader, even once they understand it, will lose any and all engagement with the story.
It tries to be subtle and EXTREMELY obtuse at the same time. Films like Synecdoche, New York puts the main character in the true center of the movie in many different ways. But the tone and the way its done is always fitting.
With Final Crisis you have moments like "Superman is as real as you want him to be, as important as he needs to be for you!" and then "SUPERMAN IS THE MOST POWERFUL LITERARY ENTITY OF DC, HERE'S SUPERMAN THOUGHT ROBOT WHO IS ALL-ALL POWERFUL"
>>82010438
t. Indiean
>>82010484
>And The Martian won for best comedy. Awards are stupid. What else is new?
>>82010304
Don't forget about smart ass dialogue. Is not that Morrison is deep, is that he actually invites you to engage with the comic and find answers by yourself, to find the meaning behind the actions of the characters and to search for clues and recurring themes in past issues, for people that is used to read only capecomics that can be hard, people like Loeb, Johns, Robinson, Bendis or Sloth all work on a basis of A to B storytelling, with the same formula, and trying to bait for hype. They are like Cartoons, like generic popcorn movies, they can be good, work pretty well, but they also produce mental atrophy, just like MCU flicks, some people get so used to a shallow formula that anything that it's different makes them unconfortable.
>>82010535
STR isn't all-powerful, he's as powerful as he needs to be
>>82010467
I never said his worst, just not nearly as good as shit like We3 and Arkham asylum.
>>82010538
I would rather be an indiean than whatever you are.
A person does not become my enemy just for having different tastes than mine.
>>82010590
>lumping Robinson in with those others
>>82008124
>Batman is Orion
fuck this shit
Because It was extremely pointless and was literally YEARS in the making for what was basically no payoff. The only part that "mattered" was Batman died, but not really he just went on a journey that was a "FATE WORSE THAN DEATH!" that was nothing more than a few amusing adventures before being restored like nothing happened. The whole multiverse and beyond was threatened by purest evil, but not really because meta Morrison made a meta super-golem that meta saved everything so it was all fine.
That was the thing, everyone was fine in the end with all the implied huge implications that were hinted at with endless amounts of teaser art and storylines from the future ended up being absolutely nothing. It was DC's secret invasion, and if the writer wasn't Morrison then everyone would have forgotten it half a year later.
Also Barry's back but who cares under the age of 50.
>>82010702
Well, who do you think Orion should be?
>>82010743
Orion is Orion, stop making Pokefusions they stopped being fun 3 seconds into it.
>>82010734
Why does everything need universe-shaking consequences?
Final Crisis is the end, not the beginning
>>82010734
So Convergence ...
>>82010788
the end for what...?
>>82010788
Final Crisis isn't the end of anything, and I never said it was the beginning. The point I'm trying to make is that it was a giant sack of nothing. Go back and read up on all the stuff leading into the event and then look at how it ends and be disappointed. Hundreds of issues with years of buildup for a generic "good wins evil loses' storyline that people like because they put in their own highschool english everything is a metaphor bullshit into it.
>>82010903
>>82010950
The story of the Monitors and the New Gods and the Fourth World
>>82010788
There are other formats to tell a story in. Maybe Morrison shouldn't have made Final Crisis as a massive crossover event if it wasn't going to be a very good massive crossover event. It might have come across better as a single OGN rather than a long, slogging, delayed mess which screwed over other creators, shat on various characters and derailed a few storylines.
cause 52 was great
-Bad reading comprehension
-Unfamiliar with JLA/New Gods lore
-Didn't read SSoV or Superman Beyond
Funny enough, for the same reason people hate BATMAN V SUPERMAN.
A comic event trying to be smart and deep, too much references to old comics and literature, too many stupid imagery, bad structure, horribly pace, non-existential motivations, flat characterization and so on.
>>82011055
>too many stupid imagery
lol
Anyway, both FC and BvS are amazing, and most people are stupid.
>>82011055
Final crisis is bloated, unfocused, and incredibly overrated, but comparing it to BvS is going too far.
I like Final Crisis but maybe i'm in the wrong if people who like BvS also like Final Crisis
>>82011155
>likes Snyder movies
>calls other people stupid
>>82011263
>likes good movies
What's the problem?
>>82011055
You really can't compare both. BvS was hamfisted as hell. The execution on FC was good while the execution on the movie was... well, it was directed by Zack Snyder.
>>82011155
You're just proving my point, pal.
The most funny thing about the comic is reading the posts above talking about how the comic was trying to be deep and intelligent and whatnot.
IT'S A FUCKING SUMMER EVENT! The most cancerous and plebiest trend in the industry.
>>82011216
Grant Morrison and Zack Snyder, when you really think hard about the two, are very much alike.
They're two pretentious fags with their heads so up their asses that wants to treat capeshit as the most important and deep shit ever, saying dumb shit like comparing them to myths. They don't know how to write characters for shit and think that the basis for a good story is how many obscure references you can make. They're also full of dumb and blind loyalist.
>The execution on FC was good
No, no it wasn't, man. You had to see the clusterfuck that was 2008 board discussion. Nobody knew that the fuck FC was about or what had happened in it.
>>82011403
Morrison is much better than Snyder
>>82011403
Are there any 2008 /co/ archives around still
I want to read the posts.
>>82011429
He's much more well read than Snyder and he has the magic gimmick
>>82011483
Not anymore, no, i don't think so. But you can check stuff like CBR forums and stuffs like that.
The DC forums was full on meltdown. Not only because of FC but also because of Countdown.
>>82011403
Not really. Grant Morrison is a pretty decent writer. Zack Snyder is a ok visual director but not a great story teller. Only similarity is they both read Heavy Metal magazines growing up and it shows.
>>82011403
>No, no it wasn't, man. You had to see the clusterfuck that was 2008 board discussion. Nobody knew that the fuck FC was about or what had happened in it.
I do not agree. BvS was extremely focused on one single aspect of both characters. The Alien Superman and the Cynical Batman. Snyder NEVER went beyond this and everything in the movie feels like it was done for nothing.
FC on the other hand introduces a lot of dark stuff but it balanced the plot with some of the most optimistic messages in a crossover event along with bringing the myth from Jack Kirby's comic books. All the dark is beaten by all the good. And that is only one interpretations you can give. Superman himself actually behaves like Superman in such an edgy world and that is one of the reasons why the world gets brighter.
BvS did not have any of this. It was all a depressing trip that ended in nothing.
>>82011685
Superman killed Mandrakk and Darkseid. How's that Superman?
Final Crisis also treated the New Gods terribly just so they could substitute them for the Justice League. Orion actually died on a fucking garbages.
>>82011756
>Superman killed Mandrakk and Darkseid
terrible terrible b8
>>82011793
He did. He threw Mandrakk in the void and destroyed Darkseid's essense with a song.
>>82011685
>along with bringing the myth from Jack Kirby's comic books
Final Crisis fellates Darkseid to unprecedented levels, but pretty much shits all over every other New God.
And other Kirby staples like Kamandi are nothing more than glorified cameos (this part isn't a complaint, just an observation of mine which runs counter to your observations).
>>82011055
You're trying to make people hate Final Crisis by saying that.
>>82011892
There's no need for that. Morrison's fans will felate everything the guy does and most people don't enjoy FC. Never did.
>>82011846
Well, yeah. An event before that had Orion killing Darkseid and then dying for giving his all in that battle and thus the War between Apokolips and New Genesis (which i do believe was seen in a chapter involving Mr Miracle). You just cannot ignore continuity if you are going to make a big event and Orion dying due to his battle against his dad was something you cannot ignore.
>>82011977
A terrible series and mini-series that only happened because Morrison was already going to kill off the New Gods off-panel and Didio felt that the fans deserved to a least to something with New Gods before. Also, to hype FC.
Then Morrison made everything that happened before FC non-canon by stating that Darkseid's fall fucked the multiverse time and space.
>>82011977
Morrison doesn't really do any research beyond the basic level. It's weird that he's somehow gotten the reputation of a studious and careful researcher of comics history. Like, come on, he's still the same fucker who was too lazy to checker whether or not Batman's sex with Talia was consensual. That's a pretty big gaffe imotbh.
>>82012094
It's because people hype him too much.
>Grant Morrison is going to write Batman
>people go apeshit
>Grant Morrison says that he was a Bronze Age fan but is having fun reading the Golden Age stories for research
>people go apeshit and start memeing that Morrison read all of Batman comics
The funny thing? His "BatSaga" proves that he didn't even read entry-level stuffs because he got a lot of things wrong, but nobody says anything about it. He's the master of hypercrisis after all.
>>82011825
Mandrakk didn't die there though
He was killed by the Green Lanterns
>>82012400
That wasn't him, i think? That was the one that saved Ultraman?
>>82012259
What did he get wrong?
>>82012500
Talia character is a big one, for example. Jason Todd's original hair color for a really small one.
>>82009928
It's slightly less coherent than moat modern cape comics.
>>82012400
That was Rox Ogama.
>Events
>ever
>for any purpose
>>82012680
I disagree. But I do feel like you need to put years between them. Like if we went from flashpoint to forever evil, with nothing but time between them, it's be fine
>>82012545
>Talia character is a big one
Is more in line with with Adams/O'Neil than post crisis horseshit
>>82012545
>Jason's original hair color
Is this really such a big deal?
>>82012851
>defending Talia the Rapist
>>82012851
No, no it wasn't.
>>82012882
That's why i said a very small one.
>>82012882
Read that post again?
Getting the hair wrong isn't a big deal, but it flies in the face of the fan hype for Morrison as a heavy researcher.
>>82012887
It's far more interesting character than "lel she loves Batman and she's an antihero, kinda like Catwoman but no stealing, I want to waifu her." She was a one note character. Morrison made her interesting.
>>82012896
Just saying doesn't prove your point. She was an entitled bitch who was daddy's little girl in older stories. She definitely was more evil than normal stories portray. Her outgrowing that role makes sense. Sorry you couldn't waifu her for few years.
>>82012937
He's loved because he's an intelligent and ambitious writer that incorporated the character history into the run.
You're the one that said he's only loved as a "researcher" so it means jack shit to me if you're proving that he's apparently a poor researcher.
>>82012962
Morrison made her a huge bitch while still keeping the "she loves Batman" stick. No rhyme or reason for the huge change of character either. She just woke up one day hating both Batman and her daddy for them never taking her seriously.
>>82013137
And it gave her some character. Definitely more character than imma back stab Batman on weekdays, then daddy on weekends. She was always a creepy bitch. Hell her interaction with Bane about Batman makes her out to be huge obsessive cunt.
>>82013134
>You're the one that said he's only loved as a "researcher"
No, I didn't. Nobody said that. Nobody said that he's "only" loved as a researcher.
Anon, please read posts instead of skimming them. That mistake about Jason's hair (the other Anon never called it a "big deal") should have been a wakeup call for you.
>>82008124
A few reasons.
First, and probably the biggest reason, was that unless you read Superman Beyond or bought the trade that included it after the fact, you were shit out of luck.
The second reason is that similar to CoIE, the thing is fucking dense. There is a shitload going on every single page, and it draws from every single corner of the DC Universe, even jumping back pre-Crisis to shit that was never even canon to begin with, like Kamandi. And you really have to be familiar with all of it.
True story, it took me three tries to actually read the damn thing cover to cover.
>>82009928
You don't get the themes, the analogies, or the message.
>>82013137
Her character changed prior to Morrison writing her. She was behind Bludhaven getting nuked in Infinite Crisis.
Superman Beyond 3D was great
Other than that...It didn't seem all that amazing. Ive read the collection and it seems like the miracle machine comes out of no where (I know what it is...just in the terms of the story)
its darkseid
then a vampire monitor
meh, should have been one or the other TBQH
They should have rebooted after Final Crisis, instead of waiting a couple years with a nothing event like Flashpoint
Final Crisis has the best lines of any book.
>"I... Am... The New God"
>"No one fucks with the judge of all evil"
>The Darkseid Speech
>"He wished for a happy ending"
>Alfred's eulogy in "What the Butler Saw"
>>82010968
>Final Crisis as a massive crossover event i
It wasnt.
There were Batman comics, 2 superman comics, Final crisis, Legion (self contained) and the Hell parallel story that has nothing to di with final crisis
>>82011756
>Final Crisis also treated the New Gods terribly just so they could substitute them for the Justice League. Orion actually died on a fucking garbages.
The New gods died BEFORE final crisis, and they are still alive AFTER and Before. They exist beyond time, so even when WE watch them die they will be still alive at some point of THEIR lives in our future. Darkseid both existed in his god form and on earth at the same time but in different moments of his existence. Fucking idiot.
>>82014614
>There was a war in Heaven, mister Turpin, and I won. Your future belongs to Dark Side now.
>>82015080
The point is that Morrison wanted the New Gods out and wrote them dying off-panel all so the Justice League could fight Darkseid. Orion died like trash.
Everything else is pure justification.
>>82015144
plebeian detected.
>>82010151
>quoting francis ford Coppola on a Georgian slideshow message board
There's a word for that but I just don't know what.
>>82008124
The insane number of tien-in books that while interesting and fun on their own, end up making for quite a messy read. The plot gets messy at times, intentionally so but still, and you get to the point several plot threads are being developed at the same time, with only small relation to each other, it's the New Hope/Empire/Return Effect: CoIE is a single story, IC had a couple, and FC has way too many.
>>82012500
The characterization of just about every pre established bat character
>>82011756
>getting mad when the knight slays the dragon
>>82015144
>The point is that Morrison wanted the New Gods out and wrote them dying off-panel
The league doesnt fight Darkseid, and he never intended for the new gods to be "out". He did intended to let Darkseid rest for several years (but thanks to Johns everything was frustrated).
The New gods were still Alive, is just that their future "ragnarok" filtrated into DC's present, they were still alive, the orion that died was a future version of orion.
No wonder you hate the story you completly misunderstood everything.
>>82015928
So why wasn't past Orion the one to save the multiverse?
>>82015928
The New Gods were written off as dead in Seven Soldiers of Victory.
>>82016007
The gods were gone. Don't you remember Billy and Black adam talking?. Darkseid managed to vanish all external influence on earth, the alpha lanterns closed the planet.
>>82015928
>but thanks to Johns everything was frustrated
Wut nigga?
>>82016413
He used Darkseid in the first storyline of the league, when there was absolutly no need for that, the story could had been the same witn Mongul attacking.
>>82008230
THIS, I feel the exact same way about. At the end of the day, Final Crisis just felt pointless.
The issue I have with it is that it doesn't put upon HUGE universal or even multiversal ramifications. Freaking Blackest Night shaked things up more than this. In comparison, Blackest Night was much more simpler, while Final Crisis was more convoluted and made sure that the reader had to reread it in order to fully get it, but even if you do get it, you just feel like it's a wast a time since it still didn't result in some big changes. It just felt like that the convolusion was in order to make it FEEL like it was a big shakeup.
Final Crisis just felt like it wanted to one up all of the other "crisis" stories, but it just fell flat to me because there was not much which radically changed the DC universe at the time.
There was a new Batman as a result of this, but shit, eventually Bruce Wayne came back anyway. Barry Allen coming back was kind of a step backwards though.
>>82015928
>The New gods were still Alive, is just that their future "ragnarok" filtrated into DC's present, they were still alive, the orion that died was a future version of orion.
New Gods that exist outside of the universe, that concept came in Multiversity. New Gods were revived at the end of Final Crisis. They were in fact dead at the time. There's no future version of anyone running around on prime earth. Seven Soldiers made it clear. Seems like your head cannon is too strong.
>Final Crisis begins with a mystery surrounding the death of a New Good
>Death of the New Gods series released in the same months
>entirely unrelated, stories contradict each other and can't make sense in the same continuity
Daily reminder that DC editors have jobs
>>82016540
That happened in new 52. I really don't know what your point is.
>>82016698
Prior flashpoint not a single reboot affected the newgods
>>82015928
Closed loop time travel is such a shitty way to go about things and Morrison didn't even stick with it. Don't worry, Orion isn't dead dead, he's future dead and still around except that he isn't and Batman is Orion. Superman getting the Miracle Machine from the future means that all tension is removed, as the future has to exist so he can get the machine. Not to mention that fact that the New Gods were replaced with a bunch of analogues that we had no connection to and weren't developed within the story. Said analogues also fly in the face of what Kirby himself setup, where New Gods can die and different ones arise but they are not replaced wholesale. Morrison's Darkseid is also incredibly shallow, as are a lot of Morrison's villains. The series itself is a mashup of two separate story lines, New Gods and the Monitors, the New Gods storyline is a rehash of Seven Soldiers and Rock of Ages, it continues his trend of giving WW and MM nothing to do, the Monitor storyline is completely disconnected from the New Gods and required buying a tie-in that has a completely different storyline and exists only to explain what is going on at the end of FC, he beats it over your head that comics are too dark, grim, and sexualized while filling it full of violence and corrupted heroines in S&M gear, and the story anchors itself around big splash pages of "badass" moments and one liners seemingly designed to be cropped and posted on the internet.
Final Crisis is a shitty event, probably the shittiest piece of Grant's DC work, and the best thing about it were the tie-ins. And it's not that I didn't read it enough, or I'm not smart enough, or that I'm a pleb, or I didn't get it. It's just not a good comic. Not by the measure of other DC events and especially not by the measure of Morrison's other work.
>>82017110
shit taste plebian pls
>>82017110
>Don't worry, Orion isn't dead dead, he's future dead and still around except that he isn't and Batman is Orion.
The what? Orion in first few pages is present self who is on earth because of the war in heaven just concluded. Batman isn't Orion. There's not even a single hint about it.
>>82017195
Can you go troll some other thread, please?
Even if you sincerely mean what you say, you aren't convincing anyone to come around to your point of view with this trollish presentation.
>>82017337
He confuses Batman being an analogue with "literally being" orion.
>>82017442
The whole Justice Leaguers are analogues of new gods doesn't really work in the story and I don't think Morrison was intentionally going for it.
>>82017442
>>82017337
Batman is to Orion what Shilo Norman is to Mr. Miracle. The Flashes are also the Black Racer.
>>82017573
>The whole Justice Leaguers are analogues
But they were not. Is not a justice league story.
>>82017705
Shile and Batman? sure. The flashes? no.
>>82010788
>Final Crisis is the end
Did you forget about the gravestone?
>>82017754
It becomes clear in Multiversity when they have the exact same role.
Remember Countdown to Final Crisis? I actually paid money for every issue. I want to die.
>>82017705
In your head canon, sure.
>>82017716
That's what I'm saying. They weren't.
>>82017888
Is not the league, is SOME leaguers.
>>82010734
>no payoff.
The New Gods all died, the monitors died, DC had a new Big Bad in Mandrakk, Bruce died and opened up the way for DickBats and Batman Inc
>>82017924
So did I...
