Was there an actual moment where Marvel became shit or was it something that happened gradually?
If there was a moment. When was it?
>>81584611
Slippery slope when crossovers became too much of a thing, and big events, death of ____ and marriages became temporary before the resurrection or the return of the status quo.
>>81584611
About the time Stan Lee signed his name on all of Jack Kirby's comic books
>>81584628
I was about to say 1990, but this is much more accurate.
>>81584624
So, Civil War? Marvel had past shitty events (Secret Wars 2 being one of the shittiest) but CW was so fucking big and popular they never looked back.
The Heroic age that came after sealed the coffin imo.
>>81584624
This.
Crossovers (and I mean even 2 characters from different books interacting, not just huge events) used to be a thing that happened only once in a while, which made them memorable and exciting. Spider-Man fighting the Fantastic Four or the FF fighting Namor was a special thing that people still remember 50 years later. It was clear that a shared universe existed, but it didn't intrude much into individual books.
As people praised these crossovers, they started to become more and more common. Now they're so common we don't even notice them anymore. If Luke Cage and the X-Men fight together, it's just like "Yeah obviously". There's zero excitement to seeing the universe mesh together because crossovers are the status quo now.
It turns character histories into a muddle because instead of appearing in one or two books, they appear in nearly everything. Nobody can ever die or change because some other writer will want to use them in an unrelated book.
This is why Valiant is such a breath of fresh air. Crossovers are still spaced out enough to retain some novelty.
It was gradual, but there was a moment when Marvel OFFICIALLY became shit and that was when Rick Remender left.
Post Jim Shooter era
He juiced some good work from creators, but he also drove them away. Marvel was never the same again.
>>81584729
also Axis.
Actually Marvel's current runs aren't that bad, just steer clear of the Events or ignore them and you're fine.
Marvel and DC are about on par quality wise, it's really the sad state of the industry and its dependence on floppy sales that drives these worrisome trends.
Restarting a book every one or two years allows them to get that huge issue #1 pull order sales for distributors. This is more of a Marvel issue though.
Events are a cheap way to boost sales and both DC and Marvel are just as bad at them and just as guilty.
Team books sell better than solos so suddenly half the books are team books.
Certain franchises like Batman, Spider-Man & X-Men are guaranteed sellers so they become over inundated with books.
Some things Marvel does better, some things DC does better. Both have had their points in history where they each jumped the shark or did something irrevocably harmful to the integrity of their brand for years to come.
Marvel can't seem to kick this hero vs hero bullshit and DC can't seem to get their head out of their own ass over multiverse shit and rebooting. In many respects both are too big to be good anymore and their characters are too sacred to take any risks with.
But both still do things right and still put out great books here and there. But if you're looking for some godtier gestalt stop trying to convince yourself one is better than the other.
>>81585056
>Events are a cheap way to boost sales and both DC and Marvel are just as bad at them and just as guilty.
No way José. Marvel jumps from event to event without blinking. Secret Wars ended not so long ago and Avengers had like 3 issues before Standoff and now they are getting ready for Civil War. Last DC event was Robin War (I believe) and it was only around Batbooks, no word about events before Rebirth.
>>81585056
Marvel is far worse when it comes to events than DC. They have them a lot more frequently and they're almost always terrible. Whereas DC will actually shit out a decent event now and then.
>>81585056
>Marvel and DC are about on par quality wise
Don't make me laugh, Marvel is creatively bankrupt, has been for years.
>>81585154
I will give Marvel props for Secret Wars though. If only all their events could be that good.
>>81585190
And DC has chased off most of their talent with draconian editorial practices. Both have done things to harm their creative integrity and yet both still manage to put out the same amount of good books. Just because you prefer one over the other doesn't make one better or worse.
>>81585200
On the other hand, it was so shitty planned. Like fuck, it was their most important book in years and they delayed it over and over.
>>81585224
>tfw DC ruined Batwoman
>>81585224
>And DC has chased off most of their talent with draconian editorial practices
Simply false.
>>81585190
> Only Marvel has been creatively bankrupt for years
Nu52 says hi.
>>81585241
Dial H says hi.
>>81584611
the moment where they "killed" important character to substitute them by politically correct versions of themselves.
>>81585230
How so? It was geniusely executed and allowed for a realm of artistic creativity not seen in either company's events for quite some time. All in all it was pretty amazing.
>>81585255
A tounge-in-cheek retrospective on the silverage, how original and fresh.
>>81584611
Both companies have always put out a majority of trash. Judge titles based on their talent not on the company that publishes them
>>81585154
Agree. The reason I stopped reading Marvel stuff was due to way too many crossovers/big events happening. Literally before one was about to end, they were already advertising another big whatever. Made the main runs feel like useless side stories.
I'll always give Marvel props for allowing their characters to evolve and change where as DC has been limited in not wanting to stray too far from the silver age iconography. I think it's partly why Marvel has been so easily accepted by modern audiences where as much of DC's brand struggles to find footing outside of Batman.
Then again change is not always a good thing, but Marvel not just retconning everything for the sake of status quo with many of these changes is refreshing.
>>81585321
This.
>>81585224
I don't know how that relates. Writers and editorial have been having differences since the beginning of the industry.
>>81585224
>a bunch of washed-up writers, or the usual indie hacks
>talent
>>81585374
Same with Marvel so the allegations of one being creatively more bankrupt than the other is really a moot point.
Both stifle individual creativity in their own and often similar ways. Telling yourself one is better than the other about it is just showing your bias.
>>81584738
I don't really agree, even in old marvel they happened constantly
Still exciting as shit through
I will never forget the day I was skimming daredevil issues (I don't even like daredevil) and all of a sudden he falls off of trapster's hovercraft into a subway and gets captured by DOOM in an insane 3 part body switcher crossover featuring the ff, avengers, and spider-man
>>81585241
DC clearly improved with DCYou.
Between DC's Rebirth, YA, Hannah Barbara and Marvel's Civil war 2, it's not difficult to see which books will be good.
>>81584611
When Marvel hired Bendis. But the actual downward spiral happened with Avengers Dissassembled. Once Civil War hit, the spiral proceeded at a much faster pace.
>>81585394
Marvel is better though for what this guy said
>>81585343
DC is too scared to change and that hurt them a lot.
>>81584611
CIVIL
WAR
>>81585441
But Ultimate Spiderman is great.
>>81585134
You are partly wrong, Joe.
Dc made as many annoying crossovers as Marvel. Only thing is they kinda limit it with "batbooks" or all supes.
Its more like book crossovers, but still as bad as Marvel.
>>81585343
Just because they don't reboot doesn't mean they don't rollback to the status quo all the time.
>>81585343
>Capeshit allowing their characters to evolve
Status quo is not evolving.
So was this just a stealth "Well our movies suck but at least our comics are still better" DC support group thread?
The Big Two are both notorious for being cash trend chasing lummoxes who only rarely put out anything good. Yes there are things one does better than the other and there is more than enough variance to validate a person preferring one over the other, but ultimately it's the same bag. It's why the BIG TWO are often referred to as such with equal disdain for both.
>>81585432
That's your opinion and your bias. You're certainly entitled to it, but don't act like it's some fact which must be observed.
>>81585441
Problem is current floppy sales practices prevent them from taking a step back and re-evaluating their strategy. They constantly have to chase those hero vs hero event sales and #1 restarts 12 issues in.
>>81585492
True, but they rarely ever do anything too productive with the opportunity either. The reboots have always just been a tool to avoid having their characters develop beyond their silver age iconography.
>>81585513
Steve rogers being an old man, Miss Marvel being a muslim Inhuman girl, etc doesn't strike me as status quo. You may not like the changes, but given the fact they had a chance to undo all of it with Secret Wars and didn't is interesting if nothing else.
>>81585470
If sacrificing one decent thing meant saving the rest of the company, I would do it in a heartbeat.
>>81585579
>was this just a stealth "Well our movies suck but at least our comics are still better" DC support group thread?
Here's your 1.jpg
>>81585591
True
At this point Bendis is just the same as the Hero vs Hero events and book restarts 12 issues in. A Gimmick to get sales. And he's one of the things killing Marvel's creative integrity, this I cannot deny.
He's not a bad writer, but limited in what genres he excels in and has gotten complacent and lazy over the years... very lazy. Most of his stuff today isn't necessarily bad, but it's largely lukewarm and mediocre. He's no longer an asset in any capacity and just needs to rediscover himself in the indy scene, if only he gave a fuck.
>>81585622
Sorry that was a bit toxic and undeserving on my part. Not that this thread exactly started off with a non-flame bait premise.
>>81585579
>Steve Rogers being an old man doesn't strike me as a status quo
Yes, it is. Steve will be Captain America again. Everyone and his mother knows this.
>>81585297
Secret Wars was the start of their new universe. But with the delays the book ended after the new books for this new universe came out.
And is not like SW3 came out of nowhere, Hickman was setting it for for years, all they had to do was give Ribic the scrip with much more anticipation so they had the books ready to print.
>>81585424
This is right. At least the Comics in the 90s and late 80s did it.
I remember here they translated them and collected them in pocketbooks, tpb. And there were several stories across different us floppies. The normal stories were printed in floppies.
So there was to a degree still crossover ans multibook story arcs.
Only the problem is today it increased and the event is more in the focus than the story.
Or just feel cheap to advertise low selling books.
>>81585679
>will be Captain America again
He already is. Anyone who thinks old Cap or Whor would last is deluded.
>>81584611
Avengers dissasemble, after that point continuity was lost
>>81585665
>flame bait
You want a 2.jpg with that?
>>81585579
>So was this just a stealth "Well our movies suck but at least our comics are still better" DC support group thread?
Fuck off not everything is about your movies casual.
>Steve rogers being an old man,
Shows how much you read comics. Steve just became young again.
>>81584611
Something about the mid 2000's.
We have some great books. I loved Brubaker's Cap. I loved the revamp of characters like Iron Man.
I dunno. Too many events and too much fuckery?
They fucked loads with Spider-Man.
They fucked loads with Fantastic Four.
They fucked loads with X-Men.
The Avengers didn't use to be all that. It kinds feels that as the Avengers grew in popularity then everything else kinda got shafted by editorial decisions?
>>81585343
>White characters getting cucked by minorities is evolution
Whatever you say Marvelfriend.
>>81585732
I'll up your 2.jpg with a 3.tiff
When movie synergy started, for instance.
>>81585783
You seem upset.
>>81585783
Yet it's gotten more people online invested in the comics than anything DC has done. I can't agree with all the changes Marvel has made nor can I promise any of them will be permanent, but it's this willingness to experiment and have multiple iterations of characters over the years which allows the brand to adhere so cohesively with modern pop culture consumers.
Sometimes it's genius, sometimes it's reckless, but the Marvel Universe, status quo or not is always if not slowly changing and evolving. No matter how superficial that may be it's a dynamic state which we don't see in DC outside of their else worlds books (not that those aren't an good approach either).
Mind you change or no change, both companies still pump out mostly shit with only a few gems.
I can always count on Al Ewing to deliver and the current Squadron Supreme run by Robbinson really has me captivated. If they're not your thing, that's fine, but there will always be a few things in each companies roster that are worth reading.
>>81585343
Someone on another forum once said one of the things DC had above Marvel was their sense of legacy and relationships; the Justice League were real friends who liked each other rather than just being convenient allies, the bond between Batman and Robin(s) being more like father and son than hero and sidekick, etc etc. Then DC started re-vamping and re-booting and destroyed that. Sound legit, or just waffling nonsense?
>>81585916
>Yet it's gotten more people online invested in the comics
Tumblr are not people.
>>81585922
It's legit as a criticism, but at the same time where as Marvel's failing was Hero vs Hero, DC's was grimdark super serious melodrama and its done little to benefit their formula. That said DC can't be bound by legacy forever unless the only readers you want are the same 40-50 year old gray beards who treasure their copy of Kingdom Come above all other possessions.
Marvel and DC both need to evolve. Sometimes they do it right, but mostly they do it wrong.
>>81585953
Believe it or not there is a world on the internet outside of 4chan, reddit or tumblr and an even larger world outside the internet.
>>81585916
Turning your books into quippy rumblr clickbait where characters are dicks to each other is not evolution or changing anything
>>81585579
>develop beyond their silver age iconography
For me it always felt like "we have so many storylines and the writers dont know the hero so well, lets reboot.
Like most writers get sometimes a book but dont know and care the character developement.
>#1
Thats whats bugging me too.
I always thought it interesting and great, having a floppy with a #300+ number.
And if a hero or direction dont appeal to me, a change to number1 is for me a perfect breaking point to discontinue it.
>>81586007
Why are you here then?
>>81586021
Nor is using meme laden responses an adequate substitute for constructive discourse.
>>81584941
>Actually Marvel's current runs aren't that bad, just steer clear of the Events or ignore them and you're fine.
Woah there fella, that moderate reasonable response has no place in this thread.
>>81586034
Because of all the places one can be, where ever they are, they must be at one place at any given time. Just because I visit alot of other sites doesn't mean I can be here too on occasion.
By the same logic of your accusation who's to say your opinion is anything other than the construct of a delusional internet troll wanting desperately to believe one piece of rotting fruit tastes any better than another.
We all have our preferences, we all have your tastes, but just because we gravitate towards one company more than the other doesn't automatically make that the better one just because our opinion says so.
There's a certain Iconic Regalness that the DC universe embodies and a certain Exciting Dynamism which the Marvel universe embodies. For these reasons different fans are drawn into one or the other, but in the end quality is always the same.
>>81586139
>because FUCK YOU!
>>81585916
The problem i see is that marvel and dc have to pump out issues month for month. Many creative teams change within 12 issue runs.
Thats just too much and always feels like week runs since other has to take what the team made.
Marvel and DC both have exactly 2 current ongoings I really enjoy from each.
I don't get this whole "DC is SO much better than Marvel right now" stuff. 90% of the Big Two stuff is either mediocre or bad, so all this company war fagging and droning is weird to me.
>>81586217
Even Marvel fans hate ANAD, anon.
>>81585297
>implying Secret Wars tie-ins had more creativity than DCYou titles
Come on now
>>81585224
Are you from four years ago, perchance?
>>81586241
I'm a Marvel fan and I like ANAD.
>>81586180
>what you saw vs what you didnt read
>>81584611
Both of the big two have consistently gone to shit a few times in their history, it's nothing new.
If you're talking about Marvel's last descent into shit, you're talking about a dual cause.
First is retconning mass event cancer. They picked that torch back from the 90s and even though they had NO excuse to repeat the same mistakes, they still went ahead and arranged events without caring at all about the event's story or consistency. A couple of House of M's side-comics were kinda neat, sure. But it was pure luck of the draw, since it seemed like creative teams got told "so this is kinda what's happening, so you make shit up and then we'll try to make it fit in the main". And then the main story ends up being the most pathetic McGuffin chase in comic history, with Layla being pretty much a ball they tossed around to get the plot moving.
And the best part, of course, was that the event's purpose was to erase everything Morrison did that was new and interesting with his X-men.
I don't think I need to explain why Civil War was an ungodly mess of build-up with a tremendously shitty and pussified "conclusion". But it's okay, Reed proved mathematically that it was okay to imprison people in a gulag! What? Kingdom Come? What's that? Some religious shit?
And then OMD. Which is simply "fuck story". Marvel wants to do stuff anybody can pick up and read some funny jokes and some contrived action. So fuck continuity, only nerds care about that.
The second half of the shit-landslide doesn't need so many words. The movies. Marvel sells because the movies are popular, Marvel doesn't need to try to do anything other than to cater to the significant influx of readers they get from those.
The movies have no substance, so why should the comics have any?
I jumped ship as a regular with OMD, which was a last straw deal for me. Kinda sucked, since I was enjoying X-Factor... until the Messiah Complex event derailed everything. That and horrible artists.
>>81585579
>It's why the BIG TWO are often referred to as such with equal disdain for both.
Actually, that's because some indie readers feel the need to prove their superior taste by putting down anyone who dares to enjoy mainstream comics.
>>81586324
>I like ANAD
>>81586354
But Image fans like to say "the Big Three," i.e. DC, Marvel, and Image.
>>81584611
Joss Whedon's Astonishing X men marked the beginning of the end.
>>81586241
I'm reading more Marvel stuff now than I did pre-Secret Wars. What good ongoings did Marvel even have then? I only remember following Moon Knight and Hawkeye.
Right now I'm reading Vision, Ultimates, New Avengers, Standoff, Hercules, Squadron, Black Widow from ANAD. Also looking forward to Punisher and Moon Knight.
>>81585922
The first part is true, the second part is half-true. That did happen with New 52, but a lot of it has been repaired since then, and even more looks to be repaired with Rebirth.
Also, all that stuff about the DCU not moving forwards is inaccurate for everything before GL: Rebirth.
>>81586404
You sound like a New52 fan.
>>81586404
Like half of what you are "reading" has been cancelled so you are a stupid faggot that probably only reads in storytimes.
>>81586431
So is pretty much everything from DC. Or do you think only Marvel cancels books?
I just feel like it is poor editing and writing.
Everything descends into melodrama.
>Civil War.
>Patriot Act, war on terror, loads of things happening could have made this story really relevant.
>Instead they went down a route for maximum splash pages and awful choreographed battles.
It almost feels like comics have become porn. It is the same routine over and over again no matter who is taking part. And they chuck in cum shots everywhere as if that makes what they are doing feel relevant.
Here, let this artist jizz on your face with a thousand gruff superheroes facing each other down in unrealistic poses.
Comics need to stop the multiplication effect. Characters keep losing out because: every threat has to be BIGGER and they always need MORE heroes.
Make villains interesting again. They don't have to be some cosmic level entity.
Focus on smaller groups of heroes. No one gets any development when you have to put a page at the start of your book with all the names.
>>81586372
Image does not count as indie.
>>81586489
What big corporation has bought Image?
>>81586474
Actually DC is now starting as special imprint based on trying on out new books in the veins of the ones they cancelled, which will probably have lower sales expectations.
>>81586474
Kek what does that have to do with you saying you like current Marvel then saying you are currently reading books that are cancelled?
Admit it you only read comics during storytimes faggot.
>>81584729
Possibly. I personally think that House of M is the moment X-comics became irredeemably shitty.
>>81586525
>help! I'm stuck in 2015!
>>81586558
And what cancelled books might those be anon?
>>81586606
What? Have you not heard about Young Animal?
>>81586643
All of DC is Young Animal?
>>81586474
Why are Marvel "fans" knee jerk reaction to attack DC even if it is completely off topic?
>>81586640
Nope. Not tricking me into spoonfeeding you so you can continue to pretend to read comics. If you actually were you'd know.
>>81586665
but this entire thread is dc fans attacking marvel
>>81586665
Because the pretense of the discussion was already the quality of the big two. Don't act like this is the first shot being fired.
Also. Ad Hominem.
>>81586690
> I have no evidence that books not even at their 12 issue cancellation limit are cancelled.
Okay
>>81586661
No, but that's not what I was saying. It's basically a way to do more DCYou with a way lower cancellation level.
>>81586697
Im pretty sure OP asked when exactly Marvel dropped in quality and that anon called that dude out for lying about reading current books that are cancelled. That had nothing to do with DC.
It makes actual Marvel fans like myself look retarded because casuals are insecure as hell cause they don't know anything. Attacking DC doesn't make Marvel's current state any less terrible.
>>81586727
You're not getting me to spoonfeed you faggot. Go google every book you are "reading" and you will find out retard. How about actually supporting the industry instead of just reading storytimes on /co/?
>>81586640
Vision and Herc are cancelled. Standoff was never an ongoing. NA is nearing the cancellation zone and SS might be too, Ican't recall.
>>81586745
What books are cancelled.
Also the discussion of quality between dc and marvel was already ongoing before that incident you pointed out. You're just goal post moving now.
Was there an actual moment where this thread became shit or was it something that happened gradually?
If there was a moment. When was it?
I'll tell you when: >>81585579
>So was this just a stealth "Well our movies suck but at least our comics are still better" DC support group thread?
>>81584611
FemThor
>>81586774
Fucking faggot. People like you that spoonfeed these pseudo readers are killing the industry.
>>81586774
Just because something has been cancelled doesn't mean there arent new issue of the initial run not still coming out.
>>81586779
Kek no it wasnt and it didn't pertain at all to our discussion. You don't read comics fuck off of /co/.
I wish you had to take some kind of general knowledge quiz to post here, this place is over ran with faggots like you.
>>81584738
This. The whole "If everyones super, no one will be"
"If you make everything a big special event, none of it will be big or special"
>>81586797
Jesus Christ anon, calm the fuck down. I'm arguing the same point you are.
>>81586825
> I'm talking to one person.
Also all those cancelled books are still going at the moment.
>>81584628
Right here
>>81586810
No, but it proves that all the good marvel stuff is on the cutting board, and unlike with DC, we haven't seen a plan to save it/revamp it.
All the post secret wars books are still coming out with new issues, cancelled or not since none of them have reach the 12 issue cancellation cut off yet.
>>81586871
> DC
> We
You fucked up.
>>81586871
No it doesn't. And so far we haven't seen any success for DC's plans or how long it will play out given the low (if any returns) they can expect to see.
>>81586900
We, as in the comics buying public. Learn reading comprehension dipshit.
It's always funny reading this thread where casuals try to defend the shit show that is current Marvel meanwhile us real Marvel fans just cry in the corner.
>>81586930
Yeah, but we've seen plans. And the creative shuffling of Rebirth definitely seems like it will be successful.
Not that this is the main moment but in years to come I do think it will be remembered as an important one:
When the doors to an entire new audience as well as a new generation of readers was blown open and instead of rising to meet the challenge with quality innovative content you can only get out of reading a comic book, Marvel instead pandered and watered down their product and created weak shit MCU fanfic trash.
>it's a "DC fans pretend their company can do no wrong and is so much better than Marvel" thread
Pass.
>>81586967
> Seems
>>81586947
>us real Marvel fans
>>81586983
>>81586988
>IF MARVEL IS BAD SO IS DC!
Nice new maymay, bro.
>>81586988
>Snyder
No it didn't.
King, Rucka, Way, Priest, Orlando... A large amount of the people headlining Reburth have put out consistently good work.
>>81586988
Are you fucking dumb? I just said I was a Marvel fan. Sorry I'm not trash like you and I've been reading for a decade so I can actually admit the company's current state is awful instead of little faggots like you that just started reading a few years ago and think they know anything.
You're literally one of the only faggots in this thread that keeps bringing up DC.
/co/ would be such a better place if we could just somehow ban all the insecure DC trolls. not DC fans, just the trolls. Always with these stealth "Marvel a shit" threads done for no other purpose than to vindicate their choice of one company over the other.
>>81587014
But it's true, both companies have very few good books right now.
When Spiderman sold his marriage to the devil.
>>81587021
Sure you are. Sure you are friend, because you're not at all the same person posting angrily with the same posting style.
>>81587032
I find it really funny that all casuals think its DC fans that hate the current state of Marvel when anyone whos been reading Marvel for over 5 years would hate the current state.
Don't even post about a company if you havent been reading for at least 5 years cause you have no frame of reference.
>>81587069
I mean I'm posting the post that are in reply to my post?
You honestly are brain dead. Admit you started reading after the MCU, its painful obvious. You are probably like just old enough to post here.
>>81584611
Do you think Stan Lee dips his dingus in ink and tries to draw Spiderman with it?
>>81587032
I have a feeling it's just a handful of individuals who shitpost in any thread. They attack Marvel anything and the second anyone counters them they pull a "Who said anything about DC? Oh so you're a company war faggot, I'm just a hapless passerby calling out shit when I see it!"
>>81587078
Yeah, because your posting style isn't at all obvious at this point.
>>81587105
Again Obvious.
>>81587032
>DC fans are consolewarfags like me, a true Marvel Fan
I guess having a civil debate in /co/ will never be possible again?
>>81587122
Attacking DC isn't a counter to why Marvel is currently so terrible. Stop being 14 years old.
>>81587115
That's how Miller draws nowadays.
>>81587078
>>81587105
>>81587123
At least try to vary your posting style or using a name to create the illusion of this not all being posted by one person.
>>81587122
Dude seriously it's so fucking obvious you have barely read any Marvel its not even funny. I bet you havent even read anything pre 2010. The way you post you were probably still in middle school.
>>81587135
But anon, both companies are just a terrible, only fanboys disagree. Both pump out bulk shit with a few gems that typically get cancelled. Welcome to comic books.
>>81587146
Gimp.
>>81585056
Man...no, just...no. There are good titles at DC, there's been a lot of exciting announcement too, while on Marvel you either get shit or mediocre comics. The only worthwhile comic they have is written by someone that signed an exclusive with DC, that says a lot.
>>81587146
BTFO retard
>>81587020
But then you also have Lobdell, Dogfucker, Venditti, Tynion, Palmiotti and other mediocre talent.
>>81587168
But what does one being bad have to do with the other?
>>81587179
I like how you cut out the top quote to hide your samefagging in those two different posts.
>>81587179
Where's the third quoted link in that screencap, why did you remove it?
>>81587182
Lobdell is fun, Dogfucker might write something good for a changeit happened to Bunn and Lobdell, why not him too?, I'll give you Venditti, Tynion is good, Palmiotti is also fun.
>>81587179
So the first two quotes
>>81587078
>>81587105
Were you then?
>>81587179
Proved you were samefagging by omission of the top quote there you cut out of the image.
My apologies to the third quote that wasn't you.
>>81587221
>Lobdell is fun
>Tynion is good
>Palmiotti is also fun
So you're just a blind company fanboy, got it.
The troll got so embarrassed that he was caught samefagging that he just up and left the thread.
Notice how all the anti-Marvel this and that shitposting stopped too.
>>81586665
Small dick syndrome.
I want the people defending Marvel to say how long they've been reading cause as an Xfag it blows my mind you people like the current state.
>>81587301
You seem somewhat insecure anon. You're not projecting are you?
>>81587297
So criticising something means you are anti-Marvel and a shit poster?
Grow up kiddo.
>>81587318
>Xfag
Well there's your problem. Muties and mutie sympathizers should be purged.
>>81587335
Nice deflection there friend.
>>81587318
I don't like the current state, but I don't see it as any worse than previous states unless you're talking about the Bronze Age.
I've been reading since the late 90s and gone through alot of shit (Heroes Reborn, Dark Reign, etc). The current state of Marvel is more interesting than anything and I've found alot of interesting books to pick up personally and decent writers like Al Ewing to follow. I don't adore the company as a gestalt since most of the output, much like DC is, and always has been, shit. But I currently have a few books that I'm enjoying and see now problem in finding more if these ever get cancelled.
>>81587335
With the manner in which he was behaving and throwing around childish insults there was really no question about the fact that he was a shit poster. Wouldn't surprise me if he was you even, since you're the only one in this thread seemingly oblivious to his unproductive nature.
>>81587390
>Nice deflection there friend.
It isn't a deflection. Some of us have legitimate concerns.
I loved marvel in the mid 2000s but I feel like they have lost there way in demolishing a lot of properties in favour of some others.
Remember stuff like Brubaker's Cap?
We just continually get more and more new characters shoved in. More events.
If I had to guess, it was Civil War. I like to think it was Disney buying them over though.
I think Image are being shitheads too, but there's so many great comics at Image right now so I don't really care.
>>81587335
Why don't we test a theory here
>>81587335
>>81587078
>>81587105
>>81587448
Change is inevitable, not always for the best and we can't always cling to the iconic standards that are that lucky happenstance of the right time and the right place.
All you can do is wait for the next cycle of change and hope it's something favorable for you. Sorry that you can't enjoy Marvel as it currently is.
>>81584611
Weren't they pretty much shit in the 80's and 90's? Never read a marvel comics but listening to Quesada's interview on Fatman, he goes into detail about how bad Marvel writing was compared to DC in the 80's & 90's, until his company made the Knights line.
I've never read a Marvel Book but it seems like everytime I ask for a rec, it's never an event (besides IG) or a OGN, just random runs. While DC is mostly OGN's, Events and a lot of runs.
>>81587462
I'm the guy that you replied to about the MCU, am I wrong? Did you or did you not start reading after the MCU got started? Remember you are under oath.
>>81587324
>no u
Good one.
>>81587282
But anon, Lobdell and Palmiotti have written for Marvel too.
>>81587462
Here ya go.
>>81587495
>Change is inevitable, not always for the best and we can't always cling to the iconic standards that are that lucky happenstance of the right time and the right place.
Sure, change is inevitable.
I suppose my problem with the current status quo is that too many things are starting to have the same themes and ideas. The same humour. The same feeling.
This change feels too similar across the board.
Usually there is always something out there to enjoy. But when titles start to get similar and similar then it is hard to enjoy anything.
>>81587508
I've been reading on and off since the 90s but didn't start reading comics continuously until 2006 when I started getting into Marvel Cosmic and Annihilation.
>>81587535
But they aren't now.
>>81587543
Fair enough.
Wow, nice. A console wars thread. And it comes as no surprise it was all started by an insecure drone here >>81585056
Pathethic.
>>81584795
Please take note how their work went to shit after they left Marvel. Under Shooter, storylines had to follow some form of logic & not just be self indulgent wank.
Also, I'm not buying Marvel again they purge the SJW nutjobs from their ranks.
>>81587572
Except that's one of the more mature posts in this thread. I don't think you're fooling anyone with these hit and run posts anon who got caught samefagging.
So lets just set it straight. How many great Marvel ongoings can you name? I'm trying to be impartial.
The Vision
Totally Awesome Hulk
International Iron Man
Is that all?
Meanwhile DC have...
Batman
Batgirl
Superman
New Suicide Squad
Justice League
Poison Ivy
Swamp Thing
Justice League 3001
Midnighter
Superman: Coming of the Supermen
Action Comics
The Sheriff of Babylon
Batman/TMNT
Gotham Academy
The Hellblazer
Gotham Academy
Just to name a few. Not mentioning most of the stuff currently ongoing, or most of the amazing announcements for Rebirth or Hanna Barbara or Gerard Ways shit or the Kirby challenge.
>>81587182
So? Doesn't make the other group less impressive. On marvel you basically only have writers of the quality the second group is part of.
>>81587543
>too many things are starting to have the same themes and ideas. The same humour. The same feeling.
But that's wrong. Vision is nothing like Ultimates which is nothing like Ms. Marvel which is nothing like Karnak etc. If you want some dumb fun you read New Avengers, if you like something more serious and sinister you read Vision, if you want something meant for little kids you get Moon Girl&Devil Dinosaur and so on.
>>81587572
> uses term drone
Yeah it was his fault obviously, you know the guy trying to preach reason and logic. Unlike you who uses console war meme language.
>>81587600
Kek dude I'm the one you are saying was samefagging not that guy. This is 4chan le reddit user stop trying to guess how many people you are replying to, you are just embarassing yourself.
>>81587600
Acting like a child is mature? No wonder you like current Marvel.
>>81587618
I don't see how your personal preferences prove anything. You clearly like DC more than Marvel and that is perfectly fine, but your familiarity with one over the other doesn't prove one has more better titles or more recognizable ones.
>>81587618
>Batman
>Batgirl
>Superman
>Justice League
>Poison Ivy
>Justice League 3001
>Action Comics
All mediocre.
>>81587624
Of course there is some variety. But many books still have similar humou, for example.
I am not saying, everything is the same. What I am saying is, there is a editorial line meaning many books are similar.
>>81587646
Again, more hit and run shitposting.
Your style of trolling will always give you away samefag-kun.
>>81587667
As opposed to DC which is somehow more varied even though it can also be argued as having the same tone?
Your opinion isn't wrong, it's just a personal perspective and not anything we can say, "Yeah Marvel is all the same and DC is so versatile" That's just how you see it based on your own personal preferences, biases and what you assume of titles you haven't read.
>>81587633
>reason and logic
What reason and logic? Childishly lamping up the two companies under "bad" simply because Marvel sucks. People have used reason when replying to you(nice try with the "he) by listing great creative writers and talking about the announcements for Rebirth or Young Animal while Marvel is stuck in event mode.
>>81587674
Except those guys aren't me and everytime you say it is I laugh at you. Theblast post I made was that first screencap. Stupid reddit poster you aren't psychic.
ITT: "I haven't read Marvel in years, but I know it's all awful so let me argue with you at length about why all these current books I'm not reading are awful and all these books I am reading over at DC are great."
>>81587730
Bendis?
>>81584611
2011
It began with Schism. Suddenly the X-Men become directionless and lose their writing edge, the movies start influencing Marvel and Bendis leaves avengers.
With each year editorial becomes less and less influential until artists basically do whatever they want, plots lose all substance, mass character assassination becomes commonplace, writers don't even check the canon to avoid contradictions. Since nothing matters now it's even harder to make new characters or have a cohesive arc, entering a vicious cycle.
Higher ups start to order pandering to cultural fads like the SJW clique and unironically allow both sexism and racism on their comics alienating the fuck out of their readers.
The higher ups apparently forgot the 90s crash and are raping LCSs with a billion variants, leeching short term profits by renumbering ongoings every 12 issues (albeit we can make an argument about separate volumes for each artist being a good thing).
>>81584628
Get out.
>>81584795
Shooter beat some discipline into them. He's the best thing that happened to Marvel.
>>81587711
So Young Animal and Rebirth are all you got to say for DC? Really? Stuff not even out yet?
>>81587724
Again with hit and run insults.
>>81587730
This
>>81587730
Pretty much. I like some DC books better than Marvel right now, but saying that Marvel has absolutely no good ongoings right now is absurd.
>>81587744
Bendis? The writer?
>>81587730
This so goddamn much.
>>81587756
I was just trying to save you from looking so dumb by calling those guys all the same person when I've just been lurking since that post.
>>81587730
/thread
>>81587709
Well I never mentioned DC.... I was talking about Marvel.
I can criticise both companies if you want. There are good and bad parts to both of them. I think it is obvious to many, beyond personal preference, that there has been a thematic shift. Maybe in part to the movies and other things. And not all of this shift is good for creativity.
>>81587811
My bad and I offer my apologies for erroneously associating you with the shitposters.
>>81587756
Rebirth and YA means the future of DC looks bright, which is more than I can say about the other company, Event Comics. Another argument was that DC has great writers right now but of course you ignore that.
>>81587832
That anon is a hypocrite cause hes getting pissy about people attacking Marvel and hes attacking DC meanwhile he clearly doesn't read DC.
>>81587755
>Stan apologist
Get out
>>81587664
>>81587655
I'm well aware I prefer DC guys. I asked what Marvel comics you like. Maybe even why if you can be bothered.
>>81587832
That's a fine opinion indeed, but an opinion all the same.
Whether one company has great writers or not is also a matter of opinion. Are they great because you like them or are they great because they sell alot of books. Assuming you're the guy from above listing off all the authors your definition of "great" seems pretty broad and limited to your knowledge of only one of the big two.
>>81587863
Yes, because if he read DC he would know that books and publishing initiatives not even out yet are great right?
>>81587574
How is Miller, Moench, Wolfman, Perez or Byrne's work outside of Marvel shit?
>>81587864
>not understanding the synergy that is kirby-lee and lee's contribution as an executive, marketer and the face of the company
What Marvel comics would people recommend ITT?
What Marvel comics would you avoid?
>>81587939
>Supporting a cosmic vampire
TT: "I haven't read DC in years, but I know it's all awful so let me argue with you at length about why all these current books I'm not reading are awful and worse than these ones from Marvel that I am reading.
>>81587940
Vision
Uh...
Uh...
Jackie Chan
>>81587963
/thread
>>81587961
>not becoming his apprentince
>>81587940
Vision (cancelled)
Hercules (cancelled)
Squadron Supreme (soon to be cancelled)
I can't name one that isn't cancelled. I liked Hercules a lot.
>>81587907
Writing isn't subjective, like art.
>>81587894
Anything by Al Ewing, his consistency in characterization and lateral continuity is always gold.
James Robinson too, his quality varies but he's another hold over from the classic era and relishes in bringing out the best in the classic characters he writes and like Ewing is a great guy for lateral continuity.
Squadron Supreme (By Robinson) as it shakes up the status quo and shows the viceral after effects of the civil war. I'd also recommend the Hyperion ongoing/mini which coincides with it. Shit's gold and it's baller seeing the Avengers get beat around by the Not-Justice League.
I've heard good things about Vision and Herc but haven't been reading either.
Carnage is fun and solid as fuck if you're into symbiote shenanigans.
>>81588012
Actually it is.
>>81587940
Vision and Ultimates.
>>81588012
Both are subjective and very much open to personal opinion and since you don't have any empirical or objective qualifier outside of your own opinion.
>>81588040
>>81588078
You guys are plebs if you really believe that.
post 90's extreme/grunge marvel couldn't quite find a new thematic identity beyond "crossovers and copy anime"
>>81588135
Nice constructive counter argument there, I like the part where you outlined all the logistical fallacies while providing solid concrete proof of your claims. Stunning job.
>>81587963
But I read both Marvel and DC and I can safely say that both of them have good and bad comics right now.
>>81588169
I can't give you a constructive counter argument because it's all subjective and what I might consider constructive, you might not :)
>>81588234
Exactly, thank you for making my point for me.
>>81588179
I agree.but DC just has a larger number of good comics right now
>>81588266
That is your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, but I disagree.
>>81588266
Well thats obvious anon no one is arguing that. Marvel doesnt have anything from last year that could hold a candle to Grayson.
>>81588012
Writing is an art form. And all art is subjective. That's what makes it art.
>>81588297
> Opinions
>>81588297
Well that's just your opinion mate. Grayson isn't even DC's best comic from last year, Omega Men, Midnighter and Prez were all better for me. Grayson is good too though.
I'd also argue that Vision and Ultimates are better than Grayson, but that's also just my opinion.
>>81588245
I'm not making your point, anon, I'm mocking you. But I guess since everything is subjective, I can see how we can have different opinions and interpretations regarding my post :p
>>81588448
That's also making my point.
>>81585321
Thank you.
Underrated post.
