I don't know much about Steve Ditko but was it true that his Rayndian views made him an asshole?
>>81455759
Yes, asshollery and objectivism tend to go by hand.
Rayndian views make everyone an asshole.
Yes. Even back at the dawn of the Marvel Age, Ditko was a recluse and a piss-ant. Part of Marvel's early success was the direct contact Stan Lee set up between fans and the talent through the Merry Marvel Marching Society, and public appearances (before comic cons were a thing) Every body played along. Kirby, Romita, Ayers, Buckler, they all went with it. Ditko would straight up climb out of a window in order to avoid having to deal with people.
He was asburgers to the max, and a Randroid.
>>81455759
I've heard he's nice in person. There's that BBC documentary with Jonathan Ross where him and Neil Gaiman go meet him in his office and say he's very friendly.
He acts like. He wrote these comics.
After Ditko departs the wild fun loving swinging Parker that acts like Stan Lee comes out.
>>81455858
He didn't really climb out the window, they just said that on the MMMS record because he refused to have anything to do with it
He slipped some rayndian ideas into his Charlton comics characters. Then people went on to make some of them full Charlton (just look at the question in JLU "A is A and Luthor is Luthor")
>>81455759
>Since the 1960s, Ditko has declined most interviews, stating that it is his work he offers readers, and not his personality.
even Ditko knows everyone thinks he's a massive faggot
he's currently an 88 year old shut-in permavirgin who never married, has no children, and still has to draw shitty comics to survive.
>Ditko said in 2012 that he had made no income on the four Spider-Man movies released to that time.
and he is apparently terrible at the actual process of being an Objectivist
>>81455759
Rand was a Russian cunt who had a shitty life and was helped by many people yet told people she got where she was entirely on her own.
She created what we would now refer to as a safespace.
Died while taking social security.
Ditko thought she was cool because "herp derp who is John Galt?".
Hey /co/, I am going to take advantage of this thread to ask something about Dikto: I read here on /co/ a long time ago that the falling out between Dikto and Stan Lee was because of the reveal of the identity of the Green Goblin as Norman Osborn and Dikto was opposed to it because his Objectivist beliefs made him think that a criminal couldn't possibly be a successful businessman. Does it proceed or is it just pure bullshit?
>>81457113
I heard it was more about Ditko not wanting Goblin to be somebody Peter already knew
>>81457113
The goblin thing wad the last straw. They hadn't talked in months and ditko believed the goblin shouldn't be someone from spider man's supporting cast, though here were hints Osborn was meant to be a business man behind the shadow villian silica to lex luthor while the goblin was someone else entirely.
>>81457113
I always thought it was because Ditko wanted to go hard on the boy genius with gadgets angle and thats why he made Ted Kord over at Charlton?
Fun fact for this thread: when Ditko returned to marvel in the 80's, he insisted that his contract that drawing spider man was off the table. What an asshole, right? He's also the piece of shit who gave us squirrel girl
>>81457334
>He's also the piece of shit who gave us squirrel girl
I thank Ditko every day that squirrel girl triggers /co/
>>81457113
>>81457187
>>81457210
Pure bullshit. For one thing it was confirmed Lee didn't plot the later issues of Ditko's run, so he wouldn't have had any say in the Goblin's identity.
>>81455759
No his "Randian" views made Spider-Man not suck.
>>81455803
>>81455783
>That guy won't do things for me for free! What an asshole!
>>81457410
You and me both homie
>>81457113
Well, there are multiple rumors about what happened, and Ditko, being a weirdo recluse, has never really told his side of the story.
But what I've always heard is that Ditko didn't want the Green Goblin to have any connection to Peter. He thought it would be unrealistic, and the Goblin should just be some guy Peter (and the readers) had never heard of. Stan Lee thought that would be incredibly anticlimactic, and refused (I've also heard it said that Stan originally wanted Ned Lee to be the Goblin, but changed it to Norman, a character with weaker ties to Peter, as a compromise.) Incidentally, one or two issues before the reveal of the Goblin's identity, there was a story about a one-shot mystery villain called the Crime Master who turns out to be... someone Peter had never met or heard of before. That might have been part of the compromise.
Whatever the truth of the Green Goblin, while it played a role in the falling-out there were a lot of other issues. Ditko thought Lee took too much credit for Spider-Man publicly; Ditko wanted the book to be openly political (and Objectivist) and Lee didn't; Ditko wanted Peter to stay in High School indefinitely, but Lee overruled him and had him graduate. By all accounts they fought about a lot of things.
>>81457494
Green Goblin wasn't revealed to be Osborn until after Ditko left dumbass
>>81457410
yeah man you really trolled us
well meme'd
I saw it mentioned earlier but obligatory link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfxVO0fLHvA&list=PL50D4976EDE1AB852
>>81457494
He didn't plot the individual issues. That doesn't mean he never worked with Ditko on the broad strokes of where the series was going. And as Editor-in-Chief he had a lot of power.
>>81457662
Ditko himself confirmed he set it up. He was solo plotting by the time he intoduced Osborn and was already dropping hints. Or did you somehow think that panels pointing to something skeevy going on with Norman was just a councidence?
>>81457562
Yeah but if Stan had his way entirely, Peter would of had a magic ring from Egypt that gave him spider powers. So there back and forth actually worked out okay in the end. Some of Stan's ideas were dumb. Some of Ditko's were dumb. But as Objectivist, I understand where Ditko is coming from more, also as an Objectivist I understand he can be stubborn as fuck too.
>>81457780
Ditko confirmed he didn't talk to Lee during the time he was solo plotting. And Lee himself actually said in an article in 1966 that he let Ditko come up with the stories by that point, but he since forgot about it after.
Lee and Ditko not talking near the end of their spidey run is crazy
>>81457513
Objectivism has no morals.
it doesn't matter how i get money and resources, because i only care about myself.
you don't exist, therefore i can kill you and take your stuff. there is nothing in objectivism that says such an action is wrong. in fact, it actually states the opposite.
if you want an example of Objectivism in government, take a look at American corporate tax law.
if you want an example of Objectivism in practice, check out Africa.
>>81457780
From Marvel the Untold Story:
>At the end of 1965, when a reporter named Nat Freedland visited the Marvel offices for a three-thousand-word profile for the New York Herald Tribune, he found Lee in an unusually candid mood. “I don’t plot Spider-Man any more,” he said. “Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I’ll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he’s the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines I told him to start making up his own stories. He won’t let anybody else ink his drawings either. He just drops off the finished pages with notes at the margins and I fill in the dialogue. I never know what he’ll come up with next, but it’s interesting to work that way.”
Shouldn't the fact that the founder of Objectivism died a poor broken failure living on Medicare in public housing confirm it as a shallow edgleord meme philosophy for all of history?
>>81455759
I don't know about the guy's personal life, but I have a hard time imagining a Randroid who is not a complete shithead. For comparison, it's much easier to think of a nice Nazi.
>>81457987
>i can kill you and take your stuff. there is nothing in objectivism that says such an action is wrong
This is false though, it's basically spelled out in Atlas Shrugged that any kind of theft is morally wrong. All transfer of goods must take place in fair transactions.There's a reason "looter" was a derogatory term.
>>81458164
It works in reverse though. We once convinced a friend of mine that he couldn't be an Objectivist because he wasn't actually an asshole
>>81457513
>>That guy won't do things for me for free! What an asshole!
Oh yeah, this is exclusive to Rand/defining feature of objectivism, yup sure is.
>>81455759
At times, yes. It was that and undiagnosed Asperger's syndrome.
He kind of reminds me of George Lucas.
>>81458164
Well, from what I've gleaned, his transformation into a full Randroid was gradual. He was always a conservative but he usually kept his politics out of his work. His work with Marvel was entirely apolitical, thanks mostly to the fact that he wasn't the one writing the dialogue. But once he got to Charlton, where he was given much more creative freedom, his descent into Randroid begun.
His first work was on Captain Atom and it was mostly apolitical, maybe a bit more conservative than Spider Man and Doctor Strange but hardly noticeable.
You could read into his Blue Beetle as being slightly more about objectivism. He changed him from an archeologist gifted with magical powers to an entirely self made superhero, inventing his own gadgets and everything. But the stories themselves were more of a typical superhero romp.
Then came The Question, Mr. A and Hawk and Dove. And the rest is history.
>>81458821
His work for Marvel wasn't entirely apolitical, there was a Spider-Man foe named The Looter.
>>81458821
Hawk and Dove was very political, but not necessarily objectivist. IIRC, Rand herself was pretty anti-war.
>>81457987
>Objectivism has no morals.
Dude holy fuck do you have no idea what you're talking about. None. You're literally making shit up.
>it doesn't matter how i get money and resources, because i only care about myself.
Nope, that's not what it says at all. It says it's MORAL you to EARN your fair share and KEEP IT. And doing so without harming others.
Because harming others brings harm to yourself, so even putting one self first doesn't mean other people are less or hurt.
>you don't exist, therefore i can kill you and take your stuff. there is nothing in objectivism that says such an action is wrong. in fact, it actually states the opposite
THE WHOLE ENTIRE GODDAMN PREMISE OF OBJECTIVISM IS "THE NON-INITIATION OF PHYSICAL FORCE" FORCE IS ONLY USED IN SELF-DEFENSE.
Rand said that a million goddamn times.
>if you want an example of Objectivism in government, take a look at American corporate tax law.
Oh you mean how Objecitivism promotes capitalism and says there shouldn't be corporate tax in the first place?
>if you want an example of Objectivism in practice, check out Africa.
Yeah because they are all capitalist places right? Not socialist shit holes run by tribal warlords who survive off the altruism of Western Christians guilt trips over all of this.
You're understanding of Objectivism is "Socialist Memes Facebook Page"--tier.
>>81458356
Yes. Rand never talked about people using and abusing others while telling them they had to do free things for them out of the kindness of their hearts and expect nothing in return. Sure, it's not like she wrote several books on the subject or anything.
Before anyone else keeps talking about Lee and Ditko and Objectivism and the whole Spider-Man situation like they know anything about it, here's a page from Strange and Stranger: World of Steve Ditko where it says that that Stan Lee was a fan of Rand's stories and her depiction of heroes.
>>81460497
On this page they say that Ditko took over plotting for Spider-Man with #18, and you can see some of is politics gradually showing up.
>>81460565
Here Ditko says that Lee stopped talking to him prior to #25.
>>81460703
The legend of Ditko and Lee having a falling out over the Green Goblin's identity might've been based on the actual thing that happened where Ditko revealed the Crime Master to be a complete nobody.
>>81460072
No one cares anon, take your shit to /pol/. We're here to talk about comics.
>>81460800
Here Roy Thomas confirmed that because Lee and Ditko weren't talking, Lee had no way of knowing what the stories were going to be till Ditko sent in the pages.
And as that went along, you can see here how that was going to fall apart.
>>81460929
The situation got so bad that Lee wasn't even sure what the name of the villain Ditko created was (eventually he would be called the Looter).
>>81461005
Here you get an impression of when Ditko's Objectivist beliefs showed up more prominently in Amazing Spider-Man, and Stan Lee getting furious over Ditko not indicating who he was drawing in the panels.
>>81461152
Here we find out that Ditko had problems not just from Lee but also Martin Goodman.
>>81461255
This is probably the true reason Ditko left. Not because of the Green Goblin's identity or his objectivist beliefs clashing with Lee and/or Goodman, but over royalties that Goodman promised but never materialized.
>>81461339
If you've read Spider-Man from the beginning and wondered about the drastic shift in character personalities between Ditko and Romita's runs, well, there you go.
>>81455759
Yeah, fuck Ayn Rand
>>81461522
And that's it.
>>81461665
Good posts anon, thank you for contributing quality content
>>81461665
Thank you tons anon, great read.
>>81460497
>>81460565
>>81460703
>>81460800
>>81460929
>>81461005
>>81461152
>>81461255
>>81461339
>>81461522
>>81461665
Thanks a lot of this anon. Hopefully /co/ will actually read this and learning something instead of talking shit in every thread,
>>81457987
>if you want an example of Objectivism in practice, check out Africa.
Africa is a shithole because the West cares to much
The West gives food
the natives breed like crazy now
the natives hate the west because they're jealous they aren't rich
the West leaves because they felt bad thinking they're pressing the natives and leave behind all they left
>>81458152
>Shouldn't the fact that the founder of Objectivism died a poor broken failure living on Medicare in public housing confirm it as a shallow edgleord meme philosophy for all of history?
Shouldn't the fact that the founder of Socialism died a poor broken failure living off of his only friend in his friend's house(after decades of being a poor broken failure living off of his only friend) confirm it as a shallow edgelord meme philosophy for all of history?
Fucking Ditko, man. He's embittered by the entire ordeal with marvel and spider-man. He even hates people reading comic books today.
>>81464946
>He even hates people reading comic books today.
and yet he just got a KS funded for his next small comic
>>81461906
That is the most shallow, second dumbest explanation of Africa's situation I've ever heard.
this thread reminded me of this Steve Ditko documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfxVO0fLHvA&index=1&list=PL50D4976EDE1AB852
>>81457113
Pure bullshit. Ditko left Marvel because Archie Goodman stiffed him out of the royalties for the Spiderman Cartoon.
>>81465651
already posted famalam
>>81455759
I saw Steve Ditko at a bookstore in Manhattan yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything.
He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”
I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen copies of "Atlas Shrugged" in his hands without paying.
The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.
When she took one of the books and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each book and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
>>81465582
even shallower than saying Africa is shit because Objectivism?
>>81455759
No
Creativity and assholishness go hand and hand
>>81455759
>>81455759
>was it true that his Rayndian views made him an asshole?
No; many people find Rand, but only the assholes stay with her.
>>81458120
That was roughly a year after the Goblin debuted, and even if Ditko had been the only one plotting, the idea that Lee would have been totally unaware of the Goblin's identity is laughable.
>Rand and assholes
>not Rand and autists
That's the real connection.
Hi /pol/
>>81456120
>REEEEEEE
>>81469022
>the idea that Lee would have been totally unaware of the Goblin's identity is laughable.
Except the argument that keeps getting brought forth is "Ditko left because he and Stan argued over the Green Goblin's identity."
You could debate whether or not he knew (maybe Ditko dropped hints, maybe it was something they went over before the fallout) but it's pretty obvious from the pages in this thread and unintentional confirmation from Lee himself back in 1965 that Ditko didn't leave over the Goblin's identity.
>>81469022
>>81469786
Also something else to keep in mind, Green Goblin debuted in #14 of Amazing Spider-Man, but we never saw Norman Osborn's face until #23. All we knew about the Goblin was that he was a guy in a suit.
Ditko gets officially credited with plotting #25 onwards (though Lee gets credited with "writing" and "scripted by" which could just mean dialogue writing), but >>81460565 says that Ditko started solo plotting with #18.
>>81460914
No you're apparently here to completely fucking lie about a comic book artist and shit on him, who did more for the world than your pathetic ass ever will.
Sorry I didn't conform to you, tumblr.
>>81461906
congratulations, you're clueless.
did you pick up this argument at a trump rally, or are you just retarded?
>>81465950
You're a fucking faggot you know that? A lying faggot.
>>81465582
No it's the truth. That's not the lie someone tells you to get money out of you by guilt tripping you. It's also the truth that Africa causes it's own problems. The rest of the world didn't damage them nearly as much as they damaged themselves.
>>81470498
>I'm that fucking liberal from reddit who lumps everyone and everything I don't like into one big group I call "right-wing" people.
Out of the 100s of Objectivists I know TWO are Trump supporters. Me and a friend who posts on 4chan on too. Don't even get started with that shit. Don't even try.
>>81460497
>>81460565
>>81460703
>>81460800
>>81460929
>>81461005
>>81461152
>>81461255
>>81461339
>>81461522
>>81461665
Thanks for sharing these anon. I consider the author here to actually have a clear enough grasp on the issue to be valid, anyone in this thread saying "OBJECTIVISM IS THIS" needs to read that first page because this person summed it nicely.
As the actual Objectivist in this thread I have a lot to say on the subject. The thing about this philosophy is not that it "makes people assholes" it's that certain elements of it attract autistic assholes who really, being autistic, didn't quite get what Rand meant. You really have sit down and read all her non-fiction for clarity. It's like there are two kinds of Objectivists, the ones that do their homework and read a lot of what Rand says and the ones that read Atlas Shrugged and automatically assume it applied to them and then brainlessly copy what Rand said. These guys come from other places, religions, etc. I think they end up keeping the dogma attitude of Christianity, where you have apologetics and repeating scriptures and apply it to Objectivism too.
Ditko seems like one of the latter type. I wouldn't call him an asshole but I'd say he was too stubborn for his own good. I can empathize, but I've seen too many Oists pull this shit too and I for one learned how to just get along with people. At the same time, there is a lot he doesn't need to apologize for and he was being screwed over, which doesn't help if you're an Oist, because you're actually aware of it happening.
Funny thing is I can't but agree with Parker on the student protest thing. Look at that panel and apply it modern SJWs.
>>81455759
Why did Ditko never draw that Atlas Shrugged comic adaptation he wanted to make?
>>81456120
I love how Al Ewing actually had Spider-Man talk about how he went through a Randian phase when he was younger
>>81471563
A comic book adaptation of Atlas Shrugged would be boring as fuck, It would probably take hundreds and hundreds of pages if it were faithful to the original. John Galt's speech would just be pages upon pages of him ranting.
>>81455759
Please fucking kill yourself.
Why do you just come to 4chan when you need an opinion on something? If you want to know whether Steve Ditko's RANDIAN views make him an asshole then why not read Mr A., Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged.
Then you might actually know something about something instead of being another meme-spouting waste of space who parrots what he heard on 4chan.
>>81471581
really? what book?
>>81471879
Captain America and the Mighty Avengers
>>81463409
Wait who was the founder of socialism? And don't say Marx.
>>81460072
>THE WHOLE ENTIRE GODDAMN PREMISE OF OBJECTIVISM IS "THE NON-INITIATION OF PHYSICAL FORCE" FORCE IS ONLY USED IN SELF-DEFENSE.
explain the rape train and the guys beating each other to death over balconies
>Oh you mean how Objecitivism promotes capitalism and says there shouldn't be corporate tax in the first place?
you've never even read Adam Smith, have you? jesus fucking christ
>Yeah because they are all capitalist places right?
don't you know anything about Africa?
Nigeria? South Africa?
or do you think it's all Zimbabwe?
>Rand never talked about people using and abusing others
she literally wrote a lot of rape scenes but do go on
What was the issue of the question where he couldn't prove a business man was corrupt?
>>81471787
It's funny Objectivists know this too. Every time someone brings up an adaption of some kid everyone's like "NOO!" and they still apparently fucked up the movie.
>>81472466
A funny thing about the movies is that NOT A SINGLE ACTOR was in all 3, they changed actors for everyone twice. It was horrible.
The fact that they made 3 even though the free market had already judged the first 2 to be failures is even funnier.
>>81472227
>explain the rape train and the guys beating each other to death over balconies
Please stop making shit up.
>you've never even read Adam Smith, have you? jesus fucking christ
What an asshole assumption. You didn't even bother addressing what you green texted because you have no true understanding of what I'm talking about. Yes I've "heard of" and WRITTEN COLLEGE PAPERS THE FUCK ABOUT Adam Smith. Have you ever heard of Ludwig von Mises? F.A. Hayek? Bohm-Bark? George Milton. Jesus fucking Christ let me just name off economists some more like it's an actual argument.
>don't you know anything about Africa?
Do you? Apparently not.
>she literally wrote a lot of rape scenes but do go on
One. One "rape scence" which the women being "raped" later said she wanted it, she just wanted him to take her. This is a female author we're talking about, she knows what rape actually is and what's kinky rough sex.
>>81471787
Could sort of work, look at the ramblier bits of Cerebus.
>>81463409
To whom are you referring?
And who in here are you arguing against? No one is identifying as a socialist or expositing the values of socialism.
Why can't you respond to the criticism instead of deflect it?
>>81472983
You underestimate just how many long monologues there are in Atlas Shrugged.
>>81465651
>Are we going to make a documentary about Steve Ditko?
>Yes
>Then let's get all the left wing writers in one room and talk about what they think about Steve Ditko!
I hate this documentary. Fucking...
>>81474381
>Are we going to make a documentary about Steve Ditko?
>Yes
>Then let's get all the comic book professionals who are fans of Ditko and hugely influenced by him in one room and talk about what they think about Steve Ditko!
You're the only person here that only sees in black and white and can't put your bullshit baggage aside. Fuck off back to /pol/ and feel free to kill yourself on the way.
He was kind of a dick and a recluse who didn't like people much.
That's not exactly an uncommon personality type among artists, and it doesn't detract from his work's importance.
>>81474443
Not to mention, there aren't very many conservative writers in comics, and there's even less objectivists.
The fact is, liberal writers were inspired by Steve Ditko too, just like liberal readers can enjoy Ditko.
>81473175
I was hoping people would be smart enough to realize the messenger isn't the message. Guess I shouldn't have hoped for that.
>>81459005
Did we ever get a villain called the Moocher?
>>81465582
As someone living in South Africa can confirm the coons ruin everything for themselves.
>>81461005
That's a great bluff.
