Tell me the moral of this movie.
What should people take away from this? What is the ultimate message?
>>81265417
Judge a man by his actions, not by fear and paranoia.
>>81265417
Batman is an idiot.
There isn't any credible one. Which isn't a bad thing, but the movie tries so hard to be meaningful that not achieving that makes you wonder "What was the point?"
Same as predator.
If it bleeds, we can kill it.
>>81265417
Society killed god, and even if he walked among us we would kill him.
Don't bother trying to stop the flood or else you're going to drown your neighbor's horses.
Only action we the audience know of is that superman destroyed a city and went apeshit over Louis being endanger.
>>81265463
>>81265487
Correct
That can tell someone's an alien when they refer to their mother by their first name.
>>81265557
Yeah, the movie is trying to say to us "if you try to do good, it will turn up being bad, killing other people" (the DC explosion scene) "and killing you."
"It's better being angry and vengeful, because those people usually win." (the Batman fight)
>>81265417
Don't waste your money?
>>81265417
Snyder is a bad director.
That's the message.
>>81265417
we can all be like superman
'if you seek his monument look around you' literally referring to the audience perhaps?
in the face of doubt and fear, act within the light of love and true goodness
>>81265417
>What is the ultimate message?
JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE!
JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE!
JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE!
JUSTICE LEAGUE! JUSTICE LEAGUE!
If you want to ruin a Superhero with a 75 year legacy, get Goyer to write them.
If young Martha don't trust you, I'm gon' shoot you...
Based Armond nails it
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433246/batman-v-superman-culture-war-gets-mythic
>Batman v Superman Returns Soul to Superheroes
>>81265650
More like all actions have unpredictable consequences, even heroic ones. You make time to save one life, somewhere else another person in need dies.
The contents of the live sausage will always be a mystery
The entire underlying theme of the movie that it hammers CONSTANTLY like every other scene, is that Superman is burdened by expectation and is terrified to act because of the far reaching unintended consequences of something as simple as saving his girlfriend when she's about to be shot in the head. He's Jesus, he's Moses, he's a terrifying alien that cannot be reasoned with, he should answer to the government. Superman realizes at the end of the movie, that he cannot save humanity by continuing to play by its rules. He martyrs himself so that he can bring greater change in death then he ever could in life. See also; Batman's change of heart at the end of the movie. "I failed him in life, I will not fail him in death."
The moral of the movie is actually striking similar to the philosophy of Slavoj Zizek. It is a deeply, deeply anti-capitalist film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpAMbpQ8J7g
Now whether or not the movie executes this message is what's up for debate. But please feel free to discuss in depth on how I am giving Zack Snyder too much credit because he's a dude bro jock or whatever.
The message was "we are not a Christian nation, but it's Easter, so here is the biblical Easter story, but with American folklore/mythology instead of Jesus Christ".
>>81265417
That the next movie is going to be the Justice League.
>>81265750
>finally a superhero movie I can feel smart and sophisticated by watching!
>>81265808
Shhhh. The people on this board don't like anything that messes with their black and white view of the world.
Don't ever trust Zack Snayder. Never again.
>>81265487
Except Batman was right. At some point in the future, Superman will lose his mind and go full Injustice
>Louis is the key. You were always right, Bruce.
>>81265417
>What should people take away from this? What is the ultimate message?
Don't let fear run your life.
And if you want critics to like your movie make it utterly without depth, just a bunch of colorful dopes beating up other colorful dopes who want to destroy the world for no reason.
>>81265417
Don't hand over the start of your major film franchise to the guy who directed Sucker Punch.
>>81266030
>who want to destroy the world for no reason.
Like Lex Luther?
>>81266086
he wants to destroy superman and doesnt care if the world gets caught in the crossfire
it is different though ever so slightly
>>81266086
Luthor is a nihilist who despises greater powers because he was never saved by one when he needed them most. It fits perfectly in line with the overall theme of the film that Superman can't fix the world by just rescuing every other person from a burning building. There will always be someone who resents him because they didn't save him.
Deleted scenes also play up the fact that Luthor is clearing the playing field for Darkseid, which is still heavily implied in the movie itself, it's just made more obvious with the deleted Communion scene.
>>81265417
Even someone who you think is your worst enemy has a mother.
There are two.
On batmans side it is: Don't let fear rule your actions.
On supermans its: You can't fix everything no matter how you try. But that doesn't mean trying is pointless.
>>81265546
kek
Good for Superman that Lex's mother wasn't called Martha
>>81266160
So he's Loki.
>>81266392
Loki wishes he could aspire to the level of pettiness that Luthor is capable of.
>>81266392
Considering Loki is the ONLY Marvel villain with more than one dimension and any actual sensible motivation and pathos, I wouldn't say that it's a poor comparison.
>>81266493
You're right.
Marvel at least has one multidimensional supervillain with "pathos".
>>81266392
prometheus/faust
>>81266630
>backpedaling
>>81265971
>>81265808
> durr who is this "superman" you speak of?
Also this would give great motivation to start the Justice League of America and stay connected with other heroes.
>>81266889
>Who is this "Superman" you speak of?
Someone who always wants to do the right thing. Making him exist in a universe where actions have consequences doesn't somehow negate his character, it just means that he has to think harder about it.
>>81266986
>Making him exist in a universe where actions have consequences doesn't somehow negate his character,
Not only this, but they've done this kind of Superman story before. It's ultimately the point of the Paul Dini Superman story Peace and Red Son as well.
BvS is a very sturm and drang movie, dark and constantly glowering in all directions. It is also extremely optimistic in stark contrast to the cynical neoliberal message of the Marvel movies. We can break the chains that bind us, we can aspire to be better, we can uproot the systems that oppress us.
>>81267094
> the cynical neoliberal message of the Marvel movies.
I agree with your last point but what the fuck does this mean?
>>81267146
not him but i guess that the marvel movies are very status quo??
MoS and BvS intensely address the individual
>>81267146
The Marvel movies constantly champion limp-dicked neoliberal policies. Change through increment, change within the confines of the system. Tony flies into Fallujah to murder terrorists and instill a good old sense of USA in them, but he doesn't actually effect change. He saved the women and children, but he's left them in the same situation they were in before. Captain America routs the Nazis from the thinly-veiled CIA stand-in and then crashes a plane into them (These movies have some very, very confused visual themes), but what has he actually done to save us?
These heroes are deeply ineffective, spending time cleaning up their own messes instead of affecting real change. What I'm saying is that Tony Stark is essentially Hillary Clinton.
Never trust a film critic.
>>81267146
Marvel movies are very much consumerist. Not that that makes them bad, just that they're very formed around what works embrace that.
>>81265417
>A movie has to have a moral
>>81267388
I was with you when you said "neoliberal" because I thought you were referring to how the US as a whole is a "neoliberal" nation,a s in the new wave of classical liberalism advocated by Paine and Smith.
Then I realized you were just being partisan and meant it in the shitty two party system and I got real fucking sad.
>>81267483
>>>81267388 (You)
>I was with you when you said "neoliberal" because I thought you were referring to how the US as a whole is a "neoliberal" nation,a s in the new wave of classical liberalism advocated by Paine and Smith.
>Then I realized you were just being partisan and meant it in the shitty two party system and I got real fucking sad.
>Then I realized you were just being partisan
Make no mistake friend, I despise Democrats and Republicans equally.
>>81267451
Replace moral with theme then, faggot.
>>81267498
Those are completely different things
>>81267388
How the hell does this differ from what BvS is saying?
How can we break the chains? By dying?
Superhero movies by giant media conglomerates are by definition about status quo. Nobody will suggest a revolution in a 400 million dollar movie. V for Vendetta had its message heavily weakened when they adapted it.
I don't see a communist or even an anti-capitalist message in BvS.
>>81267658
That being said, Captain America 2 was almost anti-establishment (Shield is actually Hydra!) and Civil War will likely continue the theme.
And they will very probably (not having seen the movie yet!) do the whole "actions have consequences" thing better, than BvS ever did.
>>81267658
BvS and MoS are extremely individualistic, MoS is a guy who finds a path and chooses to go on it
BvS is a guy who's on the path, doubts it, yet commits to it, eventually inspiring others who may have also been on the path but were lead astray
they're not telling you what to do in any such specific situation, they're telling you to decide for yourself and do the best you can
MoS=you choose
BvS=percieve no matter what
>>81267883
That's because Snyder is a Randroid.
When I learned he likes objectivism and all that shit, a lot of his movies started making sense. Not they started being good, but that I understood why he did certain things.
I hate Ayn Rand
>>81267658
>Superhero movies by giant media conglomerates are by definition about status quo.
The joke is that Warner Bros gave Zack Snyder 250 million dollars to kickstart their billion dollar movie franchise about superheroes, and he gave them a fever dream movie where Batman is a fascist with a penchant for quoting Dick Cheney.
Your conceit is flawed. Robocop is one of the most anti-capitalist movies ever made, and it wasn't self-funded. It was made within the same constraints as BvS, albeit on a smaller scale.
As for anti-capitalist films, think about what Luthor represents in modern terms. The sympathetic Silicon Valley Billionaire giving billions of his own money to save the world, while contributing equal amounts of pain and suffering in it's place. The fascist Batman beating the poor and downtrodden, sending them to prison, only so they can be murdered o come out worse for wear. Even Perry White tells him that no one cares about fighting poverty, they just want sports scores. The entire montage of Superman saving people is smash cut with Nancy Grace telling us that it's hopeless. They don't believe yet. It's amusing that people pick up on the obvious Christ parallels, but don't grapple with what that means. By no measure would Christ be considered a proponent of capitalism.
>How can we break the chains? By dying?
Think about what Superman's tombstone said and what he says to Lois before he martyrs himself from Doomsday.
>>81268004
yeah i heard about the rand connection recently too, i haven't looked to much into it because i think it's very possible to make it individualistic while not trying to hinge to specific of a world view, which i think would be required for a randian view but i admit i don't remember much of what i've read about her
i've also not followed this connection because of the view of the self these movies, especially BvS imply.
>>81268004
>That's because Snyder is a Randroid.
Snyder wanting to direct The Fountainhead does not immediately make the equivalence that he is a proponent of her philosophy.
Paul Verhooven was not a militaristic fascist because he adapted Starship Troopers.
>>81267558
Depends on the theme.
>>81267388
>Captain America routs the Nazis from the thinly-veiled CIA stand-in and then crashes a plane into them (These movies have some very, very confused visual themes), but what has he actually done to save us?
Destroyed the means by which the Nazi-CIA can kill willy-nilly and unveiled their secrets to the general population, anon.
>>81265417
Everyone has a mother.
>>81268399
And? The system that allowed literal Nazis to latch onto our government still exists. Cap did not hand us the tools we need to destroy them. Hate to break it to you, but we know about the Patriot Act and drone warfare too. Hell, SHIELD comes back in the next movie, with just as many Helicarriers as they had before. You can pin that on the inconsistency of Disney to handle that theme, but it really just strengthens the point that I'm trying to make, doesn't it? Cap made a big show of it, but ultimately, he's done nothing.
Fear blinds us.
>>81265417
The world isn't shit, there are good people, power doesn't corrupt, go see justice league.
Those were the four themes I gathered.
this sort of thing going on I imagine
>>81268273
He made 300.
He made MoS, a movie, where the hero is told by his father to not save, to not do good, and he made a sequel when doing good things lead to suffering - of himself, of people around him, of innocents.
>>81268184
You say that people started to believe in the end. I'm not sure about that. The ending is not celebratory. The ending is sad. The ending doesn't make me feel "I would do the same thing for humanity. Now humanity is better, because we started to see". It makes me feel "A good person came to this world and was killed by this world. By our prejudice. By our hate. There might be no hope for us."
I would agree with your point about Lex, but the movie shows us another billionaire in the same movie, who is given more motivations and background than anyone else.
>>81265417
Just drown everything.
>>81268722
>where the hero is told by his father to not save, to not do good
That is complete bullshit. You guys take that scene out of context.
The reaction the world had to Superman completely justified his dad's fears.
He wanted his son to do good, but not expose himself like that.
>>81265417
>What is the utimate message?
Stop watching capeshit
>>81268838
>The reaction the world had to Superman completely justified his dad's fears.
And that's the worst thing!
>>81265417
Why dont you go watch Phantom Menace again Kevin, you'll probably enjoy yourself more during it.
>>81268722
>He made 300.
300 is fascist propaganda. It is also a satire related to us by a narrator who was not present for more than half of it. You can take my word at it, but Snyder has said the exact same thing in numerous interviews if you care to track them down.
By that same penchant, Sucker Punch is a feminist film that is deeply misunderstood. It's not a good movie, but its reception is proof positive that audiences (and a vast majority of critics) don't know how to engage a movie that rubs their noses in it.
>where the hero is told by his father to not save, to not do good, and he made a sequel when doing good things lead to suffering - of himself, of people around him, of innocents.
There's a thousand Man of Steel threads on this board you could backtrack through to see why this interpretation is not correct.
>"A good person came to this world and was killed by this world. By our prejudice. By our hate. There might be no hope for us."
Superman wouldn't have agreed.
>>81268184
>The joke is that Warner Bros gave Zack Snyder 250 million dollars to kickstart their billion dollar movie franch
it's incomprehensible , to the point of a Buddhist hum of nothingness how much money these empty tokens still harvest when there's nothing left for them in this world.
>>81265417
Being a hero isn't about having special abilities, it's about loving other people.
>>81267388
>Captain America routs the Nazis from the thinly-veiled CIA stand-in and then crashes a plane into them (These movies have some very, very confused visual themes), but what has he actually done to save us?
Isn't Cap arc that? It doesn't matter what he does, his enemies will always grow in another place, the war will never end, that was the point of his nightmare in AOU. By this point he is a paranoid blood knight.
>>81267779
>That being said, Captain America 2 was almost anti-establishment (Shield is actually Hydra!)
The key word is almost. Hydra being behind all this make the audience to feel safe about their government. It's not like the American government can do bad things, it must be a foreign force pretending to be the government. Geez, sound like the Towelie episode from South Park. Remember the guys pretending to be army?
>>81265808
So what you're saying is that Batman should avoid forming the JL because everytime they'll save somebody or something things are only gonna get worse elsewhere
>>81269017
>"A good person came to this world and was killed by this world. By our prejudice. By our hate. There might be no hope for us."
What's the point of Bruce saying "Man is still good" then?
>>81269592
You don't think that's insanely cynical?
>>81265417
If you let someone talk for at least half second you will save the live of tons of people
>>81269766
So, talk no jutsu?
>>81269656
>It's not like the American government can do bad things, it must be a foreign force pretending to be the government
Foreign force? Correct me if i'm wrong, but except Zola all the Hydra guys in TWS were 100% american. Their intentions were hidden, of course, but by all means they weren't a "foreign force" and for all intents and purposes they were (parts of) the american government
>>81269656
>Hydra being behind all this
>"HYDRA has been taking advantage of the world turns, and if history didn't want to cooperate, we changed it"
>"HYDRA has been taking advantage"
>"Taking advantage"
They implied that every bad decision the gov made a certain group took advantage of it, they never justified them.
And even at the end of the movie they were still pushing S.T.R.I.K.E.
>>81265417
The message is "Ha ha! We have your money! And you're just going to give us more because your favorite characters will be in our movies, even though we don't know what makes them work and we don't care because we just want that sweet superhero money!"
>>81269734
Except that despite seeing all that shit he still protects the dream.
>>81269822
By foreign I mean not part of the government or the mainstream politics. USA doesn't need pussified nazis so beta that they don't dare to use the swastika in order to do morally questionable things
>>81265417
>pls gib us avengers money pls
>>81269913
>not part of the government or the mainstream politics
>>81265750
>Based Armond
>literally just a contrarian bullshitting
>>81265417
That people are shit?
>>81265703
I'm pretty sure this is the one.
>>81265417
>What should people take away from this? What is the ultimate message?
If Superman's mom was named Jane, he'd be dead.
>>81265417
People project their own fears and insecurities onto their heroes and people of authority, instead of seeing them as human beings.
Take Lex's Problem of Evil speech. It's one of the most common arguments I've heard against the Judeo-Christian concept of God, but it relies on enforcing your OWN beliefs about how things "should" be onto what you expect God to do. Same deal here.
Everyone has their own image of what a hero SHOULD be and SHOULD do. Both Superman and Batman get hung up on their concerns that they're either doing too much, not enough, or ultimately can't do anything to help the world in the long run, and the conflict comes from them projecting those concerns onto their judgments of each other instead.
>>81270003
I really enjoyed BvS, but Armond White's review is a bunch of bullshit exaggeration.
>>81265417
The title of this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShTw1x2LsrcYou know, I think think the scene with Bruce watching Flash's video is one of the most important in the movie. The guy who is trying to kill Superman for being so powerful gets to see a being that may be just as powerful casually saving a life and still buying the milk like a regular decent guy. I think it played a big part in him believing at the end that these other superheroes will join them.
>>81265417
It's not 1938 anymore
>>81270453
I'm inclined to keep at least Flash's preview clip and thr Knightmare sequence intact because I agree. I feel like Bruce realizing that there's a lot more to the universe than just his obsessive crusade in Gotham is a major catalyst for his character's development.
>>81270453
>>81270598
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHdhUwJUB8M
contrast this scene with bruce at the end
'how many good guys are left, how many stayed that way'
'men are still good'
>>81270453
This. Batman knowing that Superman had a mother and he wanted to protect them made him realise he was also a man, and even men that fly are still good.
generally, this
>>81265417
The moral is that people will go see a steaming pile of shit if it has Batman in the title.
>>81265983
That was Batwanking from the writers part. I'm ok with a version of Superman that goes evil, it's been done before Injustice, but I hate how it's been made up for Batman to bring down.
>>81265417
Its about how important is the role of the parents.
>>81265417
Superman is sad and angry.
Batman is angry and sad.
Don't kill people whose mother has the same name as your mother.
>>81270385
Every Armond White review is bullshit.
The guy figures out whatever the popular consensus for a film is, then writes the opposite.
He is a professional troll, and a poor critic.
>>81270553
>It's not 1938 anymore
Apples don't cost a nickel!
>>81265463
I am pretty sure peoples fear came from supermans actions in MoS. Even thought he wasn't directly causing it, it was part when Zod leveled the city.
>>81265417
Need to kill a few horses to make an omelet.
That there are idiots who will defend shitty directors out of brand loyalty.
>>81270553
>>81273024
Speaking of 1938, it made me smile when Perry mentionned the Daily Planet was funded that year. Subtle wink
>>81265557
This pretty much.
>>81265557
I'm pretty sure people that repeat this never read a Fable in their life. The moral is don't act if you're not prepare to live with the consequences, good and bad.
not
>Don't bother trying to stop the flood or else you're going to drown your neighbor's horses
>>81265417
Always have a conversation before you start fighting.
