What is your opinion on Moore /co/?
Particularly Watchmen and The Killing Joke.
>>81211819
Dude is a good writer, but seems like a wretched human being who is unable to accept that the industry has moved on without him.
Watchmen and The Killing Joke aren't even that good. Magnum opus is Swamp Thing.
There comes an age when a man stops criticizing things with a rhyme or a reason, and just decides to shut himself off from the world in his positions.
Moore reached this age. he has nothing left interesting to say, mainly because he's to lazy to elaborate on it intelligently and get back into the fray of debate.
Leave this man to fade in obscurity, it is also what he wants. he stopped caring.
If he cared, he would try and actually write something meaningful once again.
Let's just remember him for what he has done, as if he was dead.
>>81211819
He is an excellent writer and bith those stories are among his best. He is also the archetypal crazy old man who has long since lost touch with the world and likely reality itself. He has festered in hate and madness and can no longer hold sensible discourse with another human being.he's also leagues better than Morrison and his schlock
>>81211819
Everything I've read by him I end up loving.
Is From Hell worth the price?
>>81212640
Is he Diogenes tier?
>>81213288mooreor less
>>81213288
Left out the part how he reccommended masturbation as a way to avoid any kind of sexual immorality, adding 'if only i could satisfy my hunger by rubbing my stomach'
He's what happens when you go too far in the right direction and that's not a compliment.
>>81211819
His Swampthing is 9.5/10 until the last couple of issues where it drops to a solid 8.
>>81212640
>He has festered in hate and madness and can no longer hold sensible discourse with another human being.
He's only cranky when interviewers ask him the same tired questions about Superhero comics because they know " Alan Moore still hates superheroes" is prime click bait. Whenever he talks about anything else he seems like a really pleasant guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2qLgZG0l54
>>81216951
You'd think he'd realize he's being baited and just chill out
>>81211819
Alan Moore hates superheroes
Mediocre. Even someone like Max Landis is a better writer.
He's one of a very small handful of truly brilliant and formally ambitious people to work in the medium (especially in Capeshitopia) and, not only is he still writing, he's about to release what will probably be one of, if not his primary, masterpiece Jerusalem (not comics, but a novel). He gets a lot of shit due mainly to his refusal to suck the cock of the corrupt superhero industry, and secondarily to ageism and maybe his 'eccentric' appearance and occult interests (which are just related to creativity anyway). He recently broke his silence about the opportunistic ingrate Grant Morrison to get a few overdue shots in and people have treated this as evidence of festering obsessive bitterness, when he has shown himself on most other topics to be warm and witty and self-deprecating.
It's like how fans continue to turn on Jack Kirby--evidence that most superhero comics fans are fucking clueless douchebags.
in b4 "shut up Alan
I didn't 'get' TKJ and Watchmen.
Alan Moore sees comics as a medium. /co/ sees comics as a genre. It's only natural that we reject him.
Apropos of nothing, here's my favorite short comic by him. I love shit like this and I love sharing shit like this.
>>81217426
They're overrated pleb capeshit. There's nothing to get.
I like his stories. The first book I got by him was Superman Annual #11. It's what made me a fan of Mongul.
If I recall correctly, he actually wrote a story for Spawn. I can't remember what it was about though.
>>81217426
TKJ is pretty straightforward honestly, there's not much to "get"
Watchmen is a true masterpiece and I suggest rereading it
>>81217381
>He recently broke his silence about the opportunistic ingrate Grant Morrison
wut
>>81217381
>He recently broke his silence about the opportunistic ingrate Grant Morrison
Howard Chaykin backed him up
> Mr. Morrison’s utterly humourless self-regard is only trumped by his nearly parodic self-mythologizing
http://www.tripwiremagazine.co.uk/interview/howard-chaykin-speaks-2/
>>81217492
It was the one about the levels of Hell. And then he followed it up with a Violator miniseries and a Spawn Blood Feud miniseries or something.
>>81217531
And later on:
>TW:Ironically, these days you’d have a lot of people calling out Grant for being Transphobic.
>HC: Really? What for? Or is this one of those instances where he’s unintentionally hurt some identity politician’s feelings by not portraying a transgender character as Mother Teresa with dick?
>>81217492
>If I recall correctly, he actually wrote a story for Spawn. I can't remember what it was about though.
Todd got a bunch of big name people to guest write issues as a promotion. Alan Moore, Frank Miller, Neil Gaiman, and Dave Sim. And then Morrison was the fill in writer while Todd was working on the Spawn/Batman crossover with Frank Miller
>>81217506
You don't know about the beef that they have with each other?
Decades and decades ago, Moore was writing a comic called Marvelman/Miracleman (the name had to be changed due to various legal issues).
Morrison liked Miracleman, so he sent Moore a request for permission to write a Miracleman story, and he even sent Moore a script for said story.
Moore read the script, didn't like it and rejected the request.
Morrison was butthurt and started talking shit about Moore at every available opportunity (Morrison refers to this phase of his life as his "enfant terrible" phase).
Morrison has since outgrown his shit-talking punk phase, but I don't think that he ever apologized to Moore.
Now it's Moore's turn to be butthurt, and he says negative things about Morrison whenever interviewers ask him questions about Morrison.
Surely you've seen some of this by now, /co/ loves to make make a big deal out of this, and there are all sorts of /co/ memes about them being wizards locked in hypercombat and other stupid shit.
>>81217574
I like this guy's style
>>81217689
Chaykin is a prime shit talker. He declared Walt Simonson the only guy from that generation who hasn't became a parody of themselves
>>81217675
>and there are all sorts of /co/ memes about them being wizards locked in hypercombat and other stupid shit.
I need this shit.
>>81217574
>>81217531
>TW: This was very early for graphic novels. Do you feel you got the credit you deserved? I hear that you didn’t make much money from the work you did for Byron Preiss.
>HC: Graphic novels. The phrase brings to mind the sort of people who use the words cinema or films when they really mean movies. “Comics” works fine for me. I’ll leave the graphic novels to the self-justifying, pretentious navel gazers who need to separate themselves from the medium itself.
>I guess we have Spiegelman and Pekar to thank for the slew of people who think their lives are worthy of transcription into comics. So, credit? Corben did it before me, and did it visually brilliantly, albeit in the service of narrative material that didn’t interest me in the least. And yes, nobody made money working for Byron Preiss except Byron Preiss.
Even being derisive, Howard Chaykin gives Harvey Pekar more credit than /co/ does.
>>81217675
Kek
I'm not that much of a /co/ regular, but thanks.
>>81217759
Like this?
>>81217689
Here's the time where Chaykin was frank about what he thinks about Will Eisner.
http://mrmedia.com/2012/01/congrats-artist-howard-chaykin-2012-eisner-hall-of-fame-nominee-interview/
>>81217736
how can one man be so based?
>>81217826
>>HC: Graphic novels. The phrase brings to mind the sort of people who use the words cinema or films when they really mean movies.
Don't tell him about kino.
>>81211849
This. A lot of his work is some of the best, and most influential ever created. The actual man himself seems like an insufferable prick of colussal proportions.
>>81211891
You spelled Marvel/Miracleman wrong, though Swamp Thing is his second best work imo
>>81217883
>calarts image
Even before the Marvelman/Miracleman episode (and I think there may have been a publishing-politics dimension to that incident, connected to Dez Skinn, the dubious original publisher of Moore's reboot), Moore had taken the time to meet and encourage young Morrison when he was starting out -- and then, later, as Moore was severing ties with DC, he recommended Morrison for possible writing gigs at DC (back before Vertigo was formally created). Morrison profited not merely from this recommendation as being, with Gaiman and others, a sort of 'replacement Moore' for DC, but also from the fact that not only did Moore quit DC, he never returned to it.
Therefore Moore found Morrison's attention-grabbing publicity pose of 'cheeky' Oedipal wrestling-heel-style shit-talking towards Moore pretty irritating, especially seeing how derivative Morrison's work was from Moore's (among those of others).
>>81217939
>TW: Around the same time, you created an influential and much-praised revisionist version of the Shadow that brought the character into modern times. Do you find much sympathy for the pulp heroes?
>HC: All The Shadow traditionalists out there hated the book. My contention, despite the fact that I love doing historical material, has always been that the reason The Shadow is a period feature is that was canceled in 1949 – by which point it was considered way past its expiration date. If Batman, or Superman, or any other comic character of that ilk had been shuffled off into publishing oblivion back then, they’d be regarded in the same light.
>I strongly believe that if you take who this character was – his beliefs, mores and personal prejudices – you have a protagonist who is far more interesting than one with modern-day sensibilities which have been imposed due to the demands of today’s readership.
>This early 20th century guy running around in the waning days of that time, burdened with all that baggage – that was what made it interesting to me.
>I had a wonderful time doing the book, and pissing off two old school Shadow fans in particular – who shall remain nameless – was an unintended result that still delights me.
>And to continue the pissing-off process, no, I’m not a pulp fan, and never was. Most of the stuff was unreadable even in my teenage years. That said, however, this material can be very satisfying to deconstruct and deliver visually.
I'm betting that one of the unnamed fans that Chaykin refers to is Harlan Ellison.
>>81212726
From Hell is seriously one of the best comics ever. Like, honestly, it completely blows his capeshit out of the water.
IMO, it's the reason WHY he hates both cape comics and every movie adaptation of his work. Because the first adaptation of his stuff -- From Hell -- was fucking garbage that wasn't even memorable. From Hell is probably his best work, so that says something.
>>81217531
Here's a picture of Howard Chaykin talking about Grant Morrison and Alan Moore (too many characters to fit in one post).
Instead, here he is complaining about Star Wars fans.
>TW: In my opinion, American Flagg! was the most remarkable comic since Harvey Kurtzman and Bernie Krigstein’s work at EC comics. The amount of graphic innovation is stunning, as is the story. The first 12 issues form one of the most influential pieces work I can think of. Again, I don’t feel that they get the credit they deserve, possibly because First were an independent publisher, and some of the work was out of print for many years.
>HC: This is very kind, and in that regard, generates a wave of bitter resentment that can only be choked off by acceptance of life on life’s terms.
>As noted above, most of the audience of comic readers and enthusiasts only know my work on Star Wars.
>For fuck’s sake.
>>81217892
boy does this guy sound like a peach.
OP: I agree with above posts about the brilliant From Hell -- but obviously don't know your sensibilities. If you're interest in the medium of comics storytelling Watchmen, Killing Joke, and Promethea (based Chaykin called Promethea 'too artfag' for him, so keep that in mind) are his most technically flashy. Swamp Thing is good as an intro, and his Superman stories. (He has done many, many short pieces, of which the one posted above is a good, if unusual, example -- Thanks to anon for posting it).
>>81211819
Good writer, easily one of the best in comics - but he's fundamentally limited by the fact that he can only write by subverting existing properties instead of making his own. He's also not that great when you understand he was basically taking the underground comix aesthetic and applying it to superheros, james bond, etc.
Watchmen is the only thing he's done that I think is genuinely great. Maybe Swamp Thing too.
>>81217892
Referring to Will Eisner
> I’m not going to hit anybody—but I was very annoyed. I offered Kubert $10 to kick his ass, and Kubert said that for $20 he would think about it.
>>81218123
Hey it could be worse. On /co/ years ago most anons just thought of him as that fill-in artist they kept complaining about.
My favorite was when someone complained about how the guy who drew the What If where Doctor Doom kept the Beyonder's powers wasn't getting much jobs yet Chaykin was, and got pissed off at me for suggesting they had good reasons for hiring Chaykin.
Yeah, I'm guessing Chaykin's talking about Ellison also.
>>81218247
this is very fair and reasonable
>>81218212
Chaykin is my favorite asshole comics writer. He's an asshole in a way that's kind of likable. I disagree with him from time to time but his interviews are entertaining to read.
Here's an interview between him and Ho Che Anderson:
http://classic.tcj.com/tcj-300/tcj-300-conversations-howard-chaykin-ho-che-anderson/
Ho Che Anderson:
You’ve been a big, big hero of mine for a long time. I feel like quoting American Flagg!, where one of your characters had revered Flagg as a hero for a long time and he met him and he was afraid he was gonna be a jerk and I’m kinda afraid of that, too, since I’ve idolized you for so long.
Howard Chaykin:
The fact is I have a great belief in the feet-of-clay syndrome. I’m an asshole, but not a creep, and better to be an asshole than a creep.
Anderson:
How do you distinguish between the two?
Chaykin:
You tell a creep they’re a creep and they get all hinky about it, they get very, very pissy. You tell an asshole they’re an asshole and they embrace it with gusto. It’s a badge of honor. [Gary] Groth is clearly an asshole… most comic guys are. The creeps in comics are frequently the writers. Ho, you may be on the fence since you’re Canadian.
Anderson:
No, I’ve got a lot of asshole in me, too.
>>81211849
>>81217931
agreed
>>81217381
get out of this thread, Alan, it's past your bedtime
Chaykin's fucking brilliant (and also highly influential, and also not influential enough) -- The original Robocop movie was clearly written by someone who'd read American Flagg! (besides the more obvious Judge Dredd). And considering the glad-handing hooray-for-Superman hacks and backstabbing corporate shills who crawl among the superheroverse, I'll happily take Chaykin's informed assholery any fucking day of the week.
>>81211849
>>81217931
>>81218454
I think that the people who complain the most about Alan Moore's personality are the people who are the most ignorant about him.
I mean, come on, this is the sort of shit that he gets into in his free time:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/12/alan-moore-donates-10000-to-help-friend-bring-his-african-wife-to-the-uk
He's a wonderful human being, but because he's not part of the pro-superhero circlejerk, /co/ pushes hard its constructed narrative about him being a jerk.
But he's actually nicer and kinder and more pleasant than almost anyone else we discuss.
>>81217426
Read an introduction to ethics and then revisit Watchmen.
Watchmen takes the superhero formula, which is essentially to create fantastic tales centered around virtuous characters triumphing through their virtues, which are supposed to be morally inspiring, and inverts it so that all of the heros are only heroic because of deep personality flaws, and at the end of the story you're only less certain about morality. It's also a really good representation of the cold war mentality, and the cold war period in general, with some touches of sci-fi.
>>81218444
The asshole vs creep thing is really interesting.
>>81218780
How so?
>>81211819
>cuckolded by a lesbian
Low energy. Pathetic
>>81218787
I've always felt assholes had a certain humility in the heart of their arrogance. They admit their own flaws and also admit that they're not going to fix them. Even if they hurt you they will still love you and maybe even try to make amends because they understand it's them.
Creeps are people who will lash out at you because deep down they think they're perfect. They'll ruin relationships, talking shit. They're also less likely to be upfront.
>>81211819
I like V for vendetta and swamp thing better.
From Howard Chaykin: Conversations, which collected a lot of interviews from various magazines and fanzines and such.
In a later interview he said he wasn't particularly interested in writing Superman though in Batman's case he was more interested in writing Bruce Wayne.
>>81212026
Is his Marvelman/Miracleman any good?
>>81219063
Yes.
I don't think I really have an opinion of him.
>>81217689
>>81217736
Like he says in the interview in >>81217892
>I am a child of liberal parents. I’m proud of my distinctly left liberal place on the planet. I have been called a left wing faggot on the Internet too often to accept otherwise. I am not a bleeding heart—I’m a Cold War liberal, a classic socialist Jew. I was raised in a predominantly secular home.
He's more like old-school leftie.
>>81218732
Just because he does nice things doesn't mean he's not a jerk.
>>81219486
What bad things does he do which makes him a jerk?
>>81219508
He's a magician
>>81218071
>deconstruct
The literary equivalent of fucking your own ass - enjoyable, but ultimately unrewarding.
>>81219508
Deeds don't make you a jerk. The content of your soul makes you a jerk, and his is as black as midnight.
>>81219661
Based on what do you make this claim?
>>81219508
He's British
>>81213288
>"I think you will find here the 'emptiness' "
Holy shit
>>81211819
Like all good or great writers the guy just needs to be left alone to their own devices.
When they themself start believing that the expectations for their work no longer allow for simple quality as the standard but instead a demand for constant exceptionalism becomes the norm, well that's just setting someone up to fail.
Fans are too demanding in the comic business.
>>81218354
Chaykin mentions two fans, one's obviously Ellison but I wonder who the other was.
>>81219960
>>81218354
>>81218071
And speaking of Chaykin, Ellison, and The Shadow:
http://comicscommentary.blogspot.com/2012/01/harlan-ellison-on-howard-chaykins.html
Anyhow, issue #108 of The Comics Journal includes a report of a radio interview with Frank Miller that Harlan Ellison conducted on March 14, 1986. The interview is mostly about Miller's Dark Knight, which Ellison praises and holds up as an example of updating an old character "in more adult terms". Ellison contrasts Miller's work with what he describes as the:
"loathsome Shadow revival that is being done by Howard Chaykin, which in my view is an absolute obscenity".
Adding later that Chaykin's series was:
"a really offensive, ugly, mean-spirited, violently pornographic piece of work".
Ellison also criticized what he described as "the starfucker syndrome", in which:
"the comics companies are giving total auteur freedom to certain people to create projects like the Dark Knight project, and yet some of them are turning out very, very sour. Some of them are going very, very wrong."
>>81218732
He can be nice to people close to him, and still be a misanthrope in general. I'd say the latter is reflected much more in his work.
>>81220089
People who think that Moore is a misanthrope need to actually listen/watch him speak.
He only comes off as cold and bitter in text.
>>81220051
Issue #111 of the Journal has reports of three more Hour 25 radio shows from 1986, in which Ellison interviewed people such as Marv Wolfman, Steve Gerber, and Frank Miller. There is a quite interesting discussion about John Byrne's Man of Steel which you can read following the link, and also more interesting Ellison comments about Chaykin's Shadow:
Ellison referred to the Shadow as "beloved to people of my generation," but found Howard Chaykin's interpretation "vile and detestable." According to Ellison, Chaykin's Shadow is a "sexist pig who uses people, sacrifices people, hasn't one grain of decency in him. He's a psychopathic killer."
[...]
Ellison said he objected to Chaykin's killing off original Shadow characters and sidekicks. "At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" he asked.
>>81211819
I have truly never read any of his works. I wouldn't even know where to start reading
>>81220192
Ellison is known for his ability to nurse a grudge, and here's one more example. In 2003, Michael Chabon edited McSweeney's Mammoth Treasury of Thrilling Tales, a collection of stories by various writers, with each story carrying an accompanying illustration by Howard Chaykin (who did his usual exemplary work). Well, each story save one. Here's a note Harlan Ellison posted on his forum at the time:
HARLAN ELLISON
- Saturday, February 22 2003 19:23:45
The reason my story in McSweeney's doesn't have an accompanying piece of art by Howard Chaykin -- as do the other stories in the issue -- is because I didn't want one. I wanted the marvelous color oil painting by my friend (and frequent Ellison-fiction illustrator) the phenomenal California artist, Kent Bash, that he did for this story-idea when I came up with it for the final issue of HARLAN ELLISON'S DREAM CORRIDOR. The illustration had to be done in black&white, so you cannot see how spectacular it is; but you'll see it when I get around to putting together that issue of DREAM CORRIDOR. What DOES piss me off, however, is among all the typos and amateur fuckups in McSweeney's #10 (which is incorrectly identified
as #11 on the table of contents) are two unacceptable, egregious demonstrations of sophomoric editing and amateur proofreading:
1) They dropped all the copyright notices, thereby forcing me and other writers to have to get letters of omission so we can register the stories with the Library of Congress;
2) The table of contents announces "all art in this issue by Howard Chaykin." Well, no, in fact; Kent Bash is an internationally-acclaimed artist, and however good or bad Howard Chaykin's little b&w cameos may be for McSweeney's purposes, the Bash painting is not comic-book art, it is a full visual interpretation of one of the punchlines of the story, and failure to acknowledge Kent REALLY and TRULY angers me.
Harlan Ellison
'Nuff said.
>>81211819
>What is your opinion on Moore /co/?
His contribution to the medium is immeasurable. His stories are the comics equivalent to George Orwell and Cervantes.
>Particularly Watchmen and The Killing Joke.
There is so much to say about Watchmen but the least is that it was experimental and pushed the medium forward.
The Killing Joke probably went to far, and lot of less talented people (Garth Ennis) have been playing a game of one upmanship with it in terms of violence/cruelty.
>>81211819
What did Bryan Johnson have to do with Watchmen?
>>81220257
>Cervantes
>Alan Moore
Superficially similar because they simultaneously satirized and transcended a genre - Alan Moore superheros and Cervantes chivalry romances - but Moore's never created a "type" like Cervantes with Quixote. Without Quixote there's no Huckleberry Finn, or Ignatius. Also Moore's philosophically weighty, but he's not funny. He's actually grating-ly serious. Quixote is amazing because it is simultaneously hilarious, sympathetic, satiric, and philosophical.
>Orwell
>Cervantes
Authors of totally different standing. Orwell's essays, 1984, and Animal Farm are very well respected, and widely read, but they're not quite the stature of Quixote. Quixote is much more influential. 1984 and the essays are also increasingly showing their datedness.
>Orwell
>Moore
Probably of similar stature, though Orwell's got a much broader popular success.
>>81217826
>And yes, nobody made money working for Byron Preiss except Byron Preiss.
This just made me remember that Ellison interview in the Comics Journal where Ellison defended Byron Preiss after Groth brought up people who had beefs with Preiss such as Chaykin.
My thoughts on Alan Moore?
I feel like Watchman was great, but it probably loses a lot of it's original impact because, by the time I'd read it, a lot of comic book heroes had turned in to genuinely awful people under their heroic veneer. Watchman was just a more well put together version of what had become standard practice.
Killing Joke is fucking awful. Though that opinion is probably tainted by the fact it it was meant as it's own piece rather than a comic that dictated the fates of certain characters. I'm so happy we're finally at the point comics are pretending Barbra was never a cripple.
Really, the problem of both seems to stem from them being their own things but then having the mainstream parrot their foundations to the point they lost their uniqueness.. and thus their entire point.
The Birth Caul is probably one of my favorite of his work though I wish I could understand moore spoken word performance better to listen to it without having to read the text in the comic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDXb-Zfof9c&list=PLP6Xgl4da_TRpseF5c9dWqOdWVS0ImbKo
Watchmen was great, but Moore's a looney.
>>81217675
>Now it's Moore's turn to be butthurt, and he says negative things about Morrison whenever interviewers ask him questions about Morrison.
I thought Moore had just the one interview where he really layed into Morrison, but didn't otherwise talk about him.
>>81222540
>I thought Moore had just the one interview where he really layed into Morrison, but didn't otherwise talk about him.
No, he's recently brought him up again in another interview.
I think it's funny cause back in the Kimota book he tried to avoid mentioning Morrison's name while taking a shot at him, which I think would've worked. I guess he figured that if he didn't make it direct it would just continue.
>>81211819
I was reading his 90's output from Image Comics. I don't mean Supreme or Judgement Day. I'm talking Spawn, Violator vs Badrock and Wildcats.No reinvention here, it's played straight. Edgy, dark, brainless 90's schlock without a hint of irony. I wonder if Alan was really in that pressing need of cash money....
>>81222714
Should also mention that in both cases it was usually the interviewer that brings up Morrison's name.
>>81211819
he thinks Watchmen is this masterpiece of moral ambiguity, but once you get past the obfuscation and metaphor the text is pretty explicit about who is good and who is evil.
Killing Joke was cool
>>81222756
He still had some good ones, like that not-Superman (I forget his name) story about being one of the last beings in the universe.
>>81222852
Mr. Majestic
>>81222871
right right Mr Majestic. I feel like it doesn't really matter what these characters are called when Moore writes them; Supreme, Majestic... all I see is Superman.
>>81217938
Miracleman isn't even that good. His Swamp thing and Watchmen are both better than it.
>>81223070
Not him, but I really disagree.
Miracleman blows Watchmen out of the water.
>>81222904
Yeah it's why I don't completely buy Moore saying that he never had a real interest in Superman since he was 12 years old and needing to resurrect it for the stuff he was offered. I think he just needed to distance himself from DC because of all the bad blood in the last 30 years. Unless he meant "real interest" as like someone who still followed the book through adolescence and adulthood in which case then he'd be right.
>>81223103
I personally disagree. Miracleman's art wasn't that good, and it had some weak parts. While Watchmen was strong throughout and Gibbon's artwork was more than just good looking artwork.
perhaps his generation's pick of the litter...
>>81217892
That was a great read, thank you.
>>81223122
I guess he meant it in the sense that he still likes the character and the mythology but doesn't find the material from the 70s and onward to be particularly good.
Promethea is his best work. But everything I've read by him I end up loving, save forn Neonomicon maybe.
>>81223335
That would make sense. In Supreme he kind of seems dismissive of the 70's era of Superman, preferring to reference the 70's cosmic comics in general.
>>81211819
I think he is a very interesting comic author and a rather unique creative weirdo. The world will be a more hollow place once he passes away.
I liked Watchmen a lot, but I can't say that I read the Killing Joke because I just don't care about Batman enough to do so.
>>81218732
Yeah, Moore is really passionate about the things that matters to him. Super heroes are simply not part of the passion that drives him anymore and I think he is right to be cynical about big publishers.
>>81217892
I also just remembered something else, this part:
>CHAYKIN: The assumption Will made was there was him and everyone else—that the everyone else is doing work that’s by nature secondary to his vision. His dismissal of Jack Kirby is a classic example of this. I’m not a huge fan of Kirby’s, but I acknowledge his place in the pantheon. Will never thought very highly of the work. I am sure you know this.
>ANDELMAN: It was never actually said to me.
>CHAYKIN: Will regarded Jack as a guy who just turned the pages out.
>ANDELMAN: If so, I think that had a lot to do with where they started together, and that is what Jack was doing at the beginning, and I don’t think he ever saw him any differently, but…
There was a book about comics some time ago (like in the last decade) that mentioned a convention panel or something where Eisner was as dismissive of Kirby as Chaykin said he was--something like how Eisner didn't think Kirby did work for art's sake. Then someone showed Eisner the original art to this page of Devil Dinosaur, and Eisner remarked, "Well, I could be wrong." or something like that. Anybody remember the book on comics I'm talking about?
>>81220117
Yeah, a lot of it is just that ironic British mannerism that is often lost in text to people who are not familiar with it. The tone of his voice makes all the difference in the world and I have heard few people in interviews that has been as sincere with the fondness of their voicea as Alan Moore. When he speaks about something he enjoyes you can tell it comes straight from the heart.
>>81221589
But Oracle was great.
>>81217303
>Alan Moore hates superheroes
Alan Moore hates what super heroes has become and he is probably not happy that he was a part of what brought on the changes he dislikes. What he wanted other people to do was to emulate being experimentelly creative with the medium rather than just trying to emulate his final products, with mixed results, for over 20 years. He is upset that a lot of his colleagues working in todays comics doesn't seem have the drive to find their own voice and influences, also because it just might be his fault.
They're about the only comics I've ever read and by extension they're also best ones I've ever read. He's completely right in that you should tell an original, compelling story or not bother at all.
>>81213288
At least in the comic circles.
>>81223157
Is that fuckin Glycon in the background there?
>>81224767
It sure is.
>>81211819
Garbage. Complete and utter shit. The Richard K Stallman of comics, and not just because of the beard, but because of the batshit he spews. The dude doesn't know anything about art or writing, he just fucking makes utter crap and edge lords eat it up. Comics are worse for his influence.
>>81211819
I liked him a lot more before I started reading his interviews. You can see him progressing from somebody who was arrogant enough to think he can kill the superhero genre with Watchmen, but still kind of nice, to somebody who thinks that Watchmen is the pinnacle of sequential art and nothing ever did or will reach it. It feels he's bitter cause subconsciously he knows he's not good enough for "grown-up books" as he calls with his kind of purpley prose, so he has to settle for being King Shit of Comicbook Mountain which is like being a King in a village of retards in his eyes.
It doesn't really help that he only does interviews with low-balling yes men he knew for years and who so far didn't get on his shit-list an achievement that is pretty fascinating cause you only have to forget his birthday to suddenly become persona non grata in his house.
I think he's an amazing writer who's said some things I don't agree 100% with, but I never agree 100% with anyone, not even myself, so I don't worry about it.
>>81217675
You know, I read like a fuckton of Morrison's interviews and he really said more nice things about Moore and his work than bad. Besides that one column in the 80s and one time when Millar was the one that started shitting on Moore and Morrison was "right on, mate" most of the time if it's not Watchmen he says nice things. An issue of Swamp Thing made him cry. Unfortunately, Moore seems like first-impressions kind of guy and that shit in the 80s is all that matters. And since it really feels like a type of situation where Moore sycophants told him that this Morrison fella is out to get him, the way Moore talks about it, it's like Morrison was stalking him for decades or something.
>>81220580
I feel like he meant in relation to the particular medium/genre, rather than writing as a whole.
>>81211819
>Particularly Watchmen and The Killing Joke.
I didn't really care for them. They're both good, well-written stories, but not really to my liking.
I much prefer Supreme, Tom Strong and Top Ten.
>>81211819
I think he's pretty great; and at his prime was one of the iconic writers of his age that helped shape and change the way comics have been made ever since.
He's a peculiar sort though, and it makes it easy for people to dislike him, and for that dislike to bleed into the perception of his works.
>>81217492
I believe he wrote a story in which the Gen13 kids went into a dark dystopian future in which Spawn had overthrown Malegbolgia and become the dark overlord of Earth.
Never been able to find it though.
>>81213288
After reading that, most certainly.
from hell, top ten, promethea and tom strong are all top tier works
>>81220257
What the fuck does Garth Ennis have to do with The Killing Joke? I could see Millar but Garth has put out a bunch of genuinely fantastic war comics.
>>81222756
>and Wildcats.No reinvention here,
He did a little bit with revealing that the big war had been over for centuries and the home world was not the paradise everyone thought it was. That has hints of his usual "Everything you thought you knew is wrong!" approach to a franchise.
>>81211819
Killing Joke is one of his weakest best known works.
V for Vendetta is better than both, From Hell his magnum opus.
>>81222756
Stuff like Spawn is proof that the assertion "no character is bad with the right writer" is blatantly wrong.
>>81226262
The only good Spawn-related thing I've ever read was Bendis' Sam & Twtich. Here's all of Spawn's role in it
>>81225776
This is my general approach to evaluating entertainment and creators. Otherwise I wouldn't be allowing myself to like almost anything of the things I enjoy.
>>81211819
I like to imagine him and Grant Morrison are different versions of the same person that wound up in the same universe by accident, and that their final battle will usher in a new epoch
>>81217452
What the fuck did I just read
>>81218037
Where the fuck is this comic book? Like seriously, there are two volumes but the only thing I can find related to it is two teasers and a 3-page preview.
>>81223722
Yeah Eisner was quick to dismiss things he never read. In his own introduction to a volume of Usagi Yojimbo he says for a while he ignored the series because he assumed that Stan Sakai only used animals because he wasn't talented enough to draw people
>>81226703
>they're supposed to fuse to become the demiurge
>but this would prove that Morrison was right about hypercrisis, and Moore chooses to take his own life instead, damning the cosmos to swift heat death for the sake of denying his rival the satisfaction
I think he is cool and agree with most of his opinions.
Some of his work is kinda meh though (I'm mostly talking about Promethea.)
>>81214372
Sounds like a sensible man.
>>81217231
If he realized how much money they made off his name that way, I don't think he'd do interviews anymore. It's probably better for his peace of mind if he never learns how internet economics works. Then again, it might make an awesome comic about spider gods.
>>81218732
This. Have you ever seen videos of him at conventions and talking with the fans? He seems to be a pretty nice guy, sometimes even answering the most repetitive and dumb questions. And he's pretty funny as well. The problem he seems to have is with journalism and the whole Marvel/DC thing.
>>81211819
Alan Moore, he's just this dude, ya know?
>>81226055
You might be thinking of Spawn/Wildcats.
>>81217452
I have an original physical copy of the RAW this was published in. Bet you guys wish your parents were alt-comics nerds in the 80's.
>>81217689
Read this, it's gold.
>>81230750
Yeah, it's where >>81219007
comes from
>>81211819
Watchmen's overrated.
Very...infantile understanding of world politics.
Ozymandias is a ridiculous Mary-Sue.Catching bullets is, in fact, impossible. He would have to be super-human to do it, but Manhattan is explicitly the only super-human.Predicting the future by watching a lot of television made me roll my eyes.
Manhattan's speech on Mars about how the existence life is not a big deal was a load of crap. Very shallow and uninteresting.
Speaking of which, Manhattan's mere existence means the cold war should have ended in the 60s. He doesn't *have* to blow up all the Russian missiles. All he has to do is teleport into the Soviet premiere's office and say, "Hey, peace treaty. NOW!"
Either make the story about an uncaring Godlike being, or make it about the cold war. You can't do both.
That damn pirate story went on forever, and I... didn't care. I don't need a metaphor for what's happening in the story, and the pirate tale was wildly melodramatic.
I hated Night Owl and Silk Spectre 2. Having sex while 3 million New Yorkers rotted in the street. Fuck you you narcissistic cunts.
When I saw them with that stupid blonde hair I wanted to start punching them until they both stopped moving.
Ozymandias's plan made no sense, and could just as easily have triggered World War 3 as prevent it. The supposed moral quandary the book presents was no quandary to me at all. I never saw Ozymandias as anything but a mass-murderer, and the fact that everyone else rolled over for him when he made his argument made me think that they're all easily led idiotswhich, granted, might be the point.
The only sympathetic character is Rorschach. Everyone else is either an idiot, a narcissist, or a mary-sue. And even Rorschach does ridiculous, impossible things.
Oh and psychics exist in this universe. Sure, why not?
![[gg]_Goku_Sayonara_Zetsubou_Sensei_-_01_[5651802B].mkv_snapshot_03.46_[2010.10.17_02.22.49].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/KwUysz4.jpg "[gg]_Goku_Sayonara_Zetsubou_Sensei_-_01_[5651802B].mkv_snapshot_03.46_[2010.10.17_02.22.49].jpg")
>>81231234
if this isnt a copypasta, it is now
>I hated Night Owl and Silk Spectre 2. Having sex while 3 million New Yorkers rotted in the street. Fuck you you narcissistic cunts.
>When I saw them with that stupid blonde hair I wanted to start punching them until they both stopped moving.
autism speaks
>>81211819
A good writer even when his stories aren't great (whatever happened to man of steel and killing joke). By which I mean, even when the plot is total garbage he is able to make it into a good story because of his writing
A bit of a douche (reee superheroes are crap! But then reuses old pulp characters)
>>81217574
>On the other hand, an entire generation of artists and writers grew up on it. And despite the current trend of nice driving out the good, in which talent has to apologize and pander to an audience that operates under the mistaken impression that it has the right not to have its feelings hurt, Flagg! opened the door to an entirely new vocabulary for telling stories in comics.
He nailed it.
>Of course, I do believe that what we have here is a very early example of what’s come to be known in academic circles as vindictive protectiveness – championing a minority of which Mr. Morrison isn’t actually a part, while needing to heroically interject against a perceived injustice against them.
Multiple times.
>>81217574
AWESOME!
>>81218071
I don't know much about this guy, but anyone who pisses off Harlan Ellison is A-OK in my book.
>>81231314
Autism accusations are the hall-mark of the mentally feeble.
>>81232108
So I guess you use autism accusations then
Alan seems like a good guy and i like his stories.
I just wish he and Morrison would make up already, i am suprised Gaiman has not held a peace summit yet since he is friends with both.
>>81211819
Moore is the one guy who has earned the right to talk shit about anyone he wants, and he exercises that right.
>>81220580
>Also Moore's philosophically weighty, but he's not funny. He's actually grating-ly serious.
You've never read his comedy books have you? D.R. and Quinch is a funny participation in the (OC and Stiggs, Beavis and Butt-Head) style juvenile delinquent comedy with a sci-fi twist.
The Bojeffries Saga is a mock on horror stock characters juxtaposed in a working class English background.
Tomorrow Stories satirizes American superhero, kids adventure comic book tropes.
>>81220580
I'm... unimpressed by Moore's philosophy.
>>81211819
he is great
Just wanted to say as the OP, this was my first ever thread on /co/ and I'm really pleased and impressed that barely anyone lowered the tone to caustic elitism with "pleb/edge/babbys first/dude x lmao/muh x" spamming.
Really interesting reading this thread as a babby to comics and learned a lot, didn't even know one of my favourite writers in Ellison is a pretty big player in the comics world. Cheers guys.
>>81235709
Ellison is a big comics fan. He has a fondest for the Golden Age characters though the actual comics he feels holds up include Captain Marvel Adventures, The Spirit, and some others I can't remember right now. I think he still follows comics though, but I'm not 100% certain. He's had a lot to say about comics over the last 30 or so years though.
I do remember that he's friends with Peter David and a lot of others.
Why do people even hate TKJ or compare it to his long form of comics to downgrade it. It's an amazing one shot imo. Almost all of his single issues at DC are great.
Only his Captain Marvel is good. Rest are overrated plebshit.
>>81236484
Captain Britain*
>>81230509
>>81232108
Is not an accusation.It is a diagnosis
>>81211819
TKJ is one of the best comics ever made when it comes to the craft. There is way more there than is usually being talked about and I doubt it will translate that well into animation, but I'm waiting anyway.
I've read Watchmen well after release so I can't reliably say how did it change the landscape of superhero comics, but it's a good book.
Moore, just like Miller, is one of the most important creators to me as comic book reader and I frankly don't give a shit if he is a crazy old man or a misanthrope or whatever. Still, I find his opinions infinitely more valuable even when he talks about divine snakes or whatever the shit he believes in than the daily portion of twitter bullshit from the current generation of capeshit creators.
>>81223070
Miracleman is fucking genius, it creates an amazing universe of endless possibility amd Gaiman continued it perfectly. You're of course entitled to your opinion, just know that it's wrong
>>81211819
Im biased and simply dont like the type of stories he likes telling.
What's /Co/ opinion on Moore's and Burrows's Providence?
From what I've read, it's fucking wonderful. Moore is back at his prime doing a monthly that's unnerving and creepy while exploring a Lovecraftian world.
Burrows has really come forward as an artist and his depiction of fish people as this ethnic enclave is pretty cool.
>>81240588
At the beginning I hated it but then I thought about it and was like "wait a minute, this is genius." I agree with all your points.I felt the rape was a bit much.
