What makes Superman being Superman?
What is the essence of the character?
And why people never get it?
I think to really 'get' Superman you need at least a slice of his upbringing. You need to have had a stable home life, and/or you need to have had excellent parents, and/or you need to be a parent yourself dedicated to doing right by your kids.
Most comic book writers have none of this.
His optimism towards mankind, his constant need to restrain himself, that his identity is truly Clark and not Superman (the opposite of Bruce being the disguise that Batman wears).
Superman is the man who will never let you down. No matter how dark the night or how rough the road, Superman will always be there to inspire and lend a helping hand.
>>81182837
>that his identity is truly Clark and not Superman
Isn't that different pre-Crisis? I know Byrne mad some significant changes with The Man of Steel and I've never read any pre-Crisis Superman stuff except For the Man Who Has Everything and Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes
That son of a bitch brought the war TO US
>>81182757
He is a person that can do anything he wants. And all he wants to do is help.
>>81182815
This.
Superman is just a nice dude who does nice things. He's good to the bone, kind of dorky, smarter than he lets on because he doesn't feel a need to be smart or correct people unless it's important. He IS a bit naive, but not an idiot, and is afraid of hurting people so he never really cuts loose unless you really, really make him mad.
Another important thing to consider is his Midwestern protestant work ethic. He's blue collar and thinks anything can be solved with enough determination and hard work, and is inherently more sympathetic to more 'common' people. He's charmingly milquetoast while also bring terrifyingly aware
>>81182882
>Isn't that different pre-Crisis?
Not really, in Superman #298, due to some pretty screwy circumstances, he has to be Superman 24/7, never stopping to be Clark Kent. It literally drives him to tears.
It was made in 1976, long before CoIE.
>>81182920
That's it, that's the key to Superman.
Superman does have a tragic backstory, but it happened when he was an infant so it has no affect on him at all. His family life was wonderful and he had everything he could ever have wanted at home.
Superman does what he does because he realizes he has incredible power and that he can use it to make people's lives better. There's no Freudian ulterior motive or secret twist to why he does what he does. It's pure altruism, doing good for its own sake.
It's actually really incredibly simple. Writers fuck up when they overthink him.
>>81182757
He is good for the sake of being good, with the ability to do that good, as envisioned by his creators.
He trys to live an uncompromising good life as he believes all people would if they could too.
These are truely alien ways of thinking that humans can not relate to.
>>81182757
>>81182757
Superman is all things to all my people. No matter what you do, someone will scream not muh superman.
Superman's key character trait? He believes that everyone can be good - that everyone can be helpful to humanity if they tried. No, he doesn't always get it right. No, not everyone can be saved or redeemed by Superman's belief in the inherent goodness of humanity. The trick lies in showing Superman failing to save everyone but never giving up regardless. The ideal version of Superman is one who, like the infamous speech says, knows humanity will stumble and fall behind him...but will eventually join him in the sun.
>>81182757
A man with power beyond our comprehension and yet aids us.
>>81182815
>Most comic book writers have none of this.
Let's be honest most comic book writers don't have much behind them beyond some writing classes.
>>81183556
This is painfully true, coming from someone who actually does read widely and experience things.
I love Geoff Johns to death but he has the intellectual depth of a parking lot puddle.
Lots of good stuff ITT.
A key thing -- which even Siegel and Shuster would wholeheartedly agree with -- is that his Kryptonian heritage doesn't define him. It's a simple way to explain why he's able to do the things he does, but it's certainly not needed for the feeling of alienation. Because, as it's been said, he's a farm boy from Kansas who moved to the Big City of Metropolis.
Beyond that, I've personally always thought of Superman as the "adventurer" of the Justice League. Like, everybody has their own niche, but I would expect Superman to show up in ANYONE'S story at ANY point in time. And not as the "savior", but as a passerby fighting crime in the same area.
In terms of "how do you make him popular?", you probably have to go back to Golden Age Supes. Remember that he was created when there basically were no superheroes: Siegel and Shuster were, thus, big proponents of him using his strength to get results. Yeah, he wanted to reform people and make them good, but he used intimidation to do it A LOT. He could be kind of mean and hard to people (especially compared to modern incarnations), but it felt clear that he was "the people's bully."
People don't like Superman primarily because he seems to not do anything morally grey-white (which is where basic intimidation would be). Instead, he takes the clearest cut cases, which is pretty boring.
>>81182908
that's perfect
>>81182757
People get superman all the time. Numerous writers from John Byrne, to grant morrison, to mark waid, to alan moore (though he called it supreme).
>>81183577
Those are deeper than they appear. Soaked most of my pants stepping into one.
>>81182757
No one at DC gets him
See >>81169195
>>81182757
He saves people, beats up bad guys, and Clark Kent identity is a must.
That's literally all you need for a "faithful" adaptation to the character since all the different eras he varies in personality a bit
>>81182757
There are two main ways of writing Superman. He's either a genuinely good person and that's attributed primarily to his upbringing by Kents or he's a weird alien with a set of impossible moral ideals. Both are fine as long as Superman saves people and doesn't act like a jerk.
>>81182996
>>81182920
This is exactly how he is in Man of Steel and BvS.
The only problem is that the world around him fears him and he realizes his actions have SEVERE reactions.
He can do literally anything he wants, but all he wants to do is help people and fit in to normal human society.
There's a great page from a story where there's a kid and his family being saved and the text on the page is a kid's school paper that basically says that. Wish I had it saved on my phone.
>>81187700
This.
Here's hoping that they come to their senses when he resurrects.
>>81182908
I wouldn't have put it as simply as this but these two sentences are essentially the key.
>>81182815 >>81182920
>>81183200
>>81182971
The other key component besides the above is that the gifts he has give him a unique perspective. How many books show him in orbital/suborbital space, looking at the planet the way no one (other than an astronaut) has truly been able to see, and appreciating it as much as he does as his adopted home world. I also think he would, as in Waid's Birthright, be able to see life force in other living things given the extent of his vision abilities. He has a genuine appreciation, in a truly extraordinary way, of what humanity has, on this planet and with ourselves.
>>81182757
>What is the essence of the character?
Clark Kent had the best parents. Beyond his incredible power he's a very good man.
>>81182757
Superman isn't perfect. He is us at our best. Superman is the potential inside of everyone to do their best to be good.
Superman isn't defined by his powers, he is defined by his selflessness and his ability to see the good in everyone.
>>81183599
This 100%
>>81190161
>is the potential
This as well.
>What is the essence of the character
- A revenge fantasy from 2 poor jewish kids against the rich and powerful
- A male adolescent power fantasy
- American supremacy
- Jesus on spandex
There have been many interpretations. The inspirational one seem to be the most unpopular
>>81190161
>That whole post
And here is the reason people don't like him.
>>81191284
Either you appreciate the character, or you don't. The reasons people love him are the same that others don't.
Superman is a modern myth of a god trying to be human. Those of us who love him want to believe in the idea of the greater good, while the opposite is driven to deconstruct him.
Its all a matter of what you believe in.
>>81182757
He is an idealist and he can be an unironic idealist because he can do the impossible. People who can't relate to this idealism thinks he is silly for not being cynical like they are. Hence they try to make him more relatable to their cynicism.
>>81191254
You have a number of people right here, posting contrary to what you are writing. For one, it really wasn't even viewed as spandex until well past the Silver Age was over. Action wasn't the best selling book of it's kind on the planet because 'the inspirational' was unpopular. Even when Captain Marvel took the sales title in North America, what is he but a knock-off of Superman with an ever more child-like sunnier disposition.
>>81191419
>god trying to be human
He's a person with the abilities that get perceived to be god-like. He views himself as one and the same with everyone else.That's totally a different perspective in say Zeus taking on a mortal coil and having intercourse with random women because reasons.
>>81191284
As >>81191553 points out, people want to be cynical or expect others to both appreciate and understand, not to mention, participate in that cynicism, so the person who doesn't, and who doesn't with an absence of irony, is simply something that they will never 'get.'
You've probably never really known a fireman. Or a vet who signed up not because he had a gun fetish or had no other options as far as employment or to get out of the middle of nowhere. Or the school teacher who could gone to business school and learned how to make money be doing things like repackaging mortgages and making money off the split second exchange of stock trades by super fast computing, versus teaching at a inner-city school.
>>81183314
Not:
>Krypton made me Super...
>but earth made me a man
Byrne, you had one job.
>>81192279
I posted >>81191553 and I have have spent years trying to unlearn my cynicism because I realised that it was holding me back and only made me depressed. It has been hard for me because my cynicism comes from nihilism. Embracing idealism in different forms has made me a happier person, but it has also made me unhappier during depressions. So I can understand why people stick with the easy cynical path and think of themselves as realists.
People always say DC doesn't get Superman, but from the looks of it most Superman fans don't even know what they want.
Half of the time he should just be good ol' Clark Kent, upstanding Kansas farmboy trying to do the right thing no matter what.
And the other half of the time he should be KAL-EL, perfect immaculate spacegod here to show us all an ideal to strive towards.
>>81187700
>This is exactly how he is in Man of Steel and BvS
No. No, it's not.
He loves people, people love him, and he can save everyone
>>81193064
He can be both
Because in almost every imaginable scenario a human being who got Superman's powers would become a monster. They'd be bullies, they'd be tyrants, they'd be haughty. Even the nicest guy you'd know...if that guy got powers like that, they'd almost certainly abuse them in some way.
Not Superman. He has all the power in the world and he's as humble as it gets. What makes him remarkable and heroic aren't his powers but how he uses them.
He SHOULD be a dick but he's not. His essence is overwhelming moral character when he has every opportunity to go against that. He has nothing to personally gain from doing good because he already has it all, but he does it anyway because he loves you.
>>81192728
I don't disagree with you. I'm not cynical - but I can easily sometimes despair for humanity when I take the public transit system or simply am engaging in day to day activities. But I also well-acknowledge that much of what I view as inappropriate, simplistic, rude, untoward, unprofessional, etc., etc., is as much a product of the society in which we live in which is far from the ideal that I suspect most people would choose for themselves.
Life has value, the problem often is that we find ourselves in lives without value, meaning, etc. If, for example, we got rid of the construct of money, I believe most people would choose to do something productive (including making art, or caring for/growing plants, etc.) for the rest of the planet. But then again, I also would expect people not to be selfish, which might be expecting too much without a cultural and philosophical change in our society.
>>81182920
These are the reasons I enjoyed the Captain America movies more. It was actually kinda refreshing to have a movie hero that is not a snyde smartass or a brooding tragedy magnet.
All I wanted was a new Superman movie about Superman being a good guy, being the best he could be, without a shred of irony.
It's like Hollywood is ashamed of this idea and think that people couldn't relate to it.
>>81193064
>Half of the time
>And the other half
Most comments here are coming down on that he was brought up with solid values to do right WHICH is showing others the ideal. In fact, a few people have stated that he's not perfect and I'm not sure anyone really thinks even say All Star Superman is "perfect."
As >>81193245 put it, essentially, it's not either/or and no one really is coming down that way OR comes down that way elsewhere.
>>81193751
Selfishness is important to a degree, but it also needs to be weighted against compassion. It takes selfishness to get a lot of the things you want in life, including love and doing the things you are passionate about. However, it's only really efficent if you can rely on other peoples compassion to get you through life and showing compassion to our fellow human beings gives all our lives a larger meaning. It builds trust and the motivation that gets us through the hard times. It makes us all stronger in more ways than one.
>>81192123
>For one, it really wasn't even viewed as spandex until well past the Silver Age was over.
Autism speaks
>Action wasn't the best selling book of it's kind on the planet because 'the inspirational' was unpopular.
It sold so well because kids want to read about Superman's wacky shenanigans and the new super power of the week. Nothing inspirational here. About the Golden Age, it was more about how much kids wanted to punch those assholes who fired their dads and shit
>Even when Captain Marvel took the sales title in North America, what is he but a knock-off of Superman with an ever more child-like sunnier disposition.
That's another topic, how DC stayed on business by destroying the competition, often on not-so moral ways. Fun fact: DC supported the CCA because the cape genre was losing readers to other genres, what arguably killed the American comic industry
>>81182920
>He IS a bit naive
How and why do you say this? How is legit naive?
>>81193064
A lot of people don't know what they want until they see it.
Where to start where there is no end?
If you >>81194749 are >>81191254, you are making far more cogent arguments than you did initially, but we're not really talking about National's business practice (do you want to talk about Timely or Stan's ethic, while we're at it?).
If you want to argue autism, be thankful I didn't decide to spend the word count disabusing you of your 'male adolescent power fantasy' slight.
Popularity needs to be measured in some sort of context. If you take the simplest measurement, e.g. recognition, you would have to agree that the shield is amongst the most highly recognizable symbols. It's a popular tattoo, far more so than anyone using say a Batman logo. Do you imagine the people putting the shied on their bicep, back, thigh, calves, etc. do so because it's their revenge fantasy? They are male adolescents and it represents their power fixation? They find permanent ink on their skin to be a more fashionable statement than spandex? And the people in other continents or who are immigrants to this country, they pay to have it done because they believe in the supremacy of the USA?
>>81194325
You could view that selfishness as motivation or determination. The parent who works extra jobs to make sure their child can get into college - do you term that selfish or motivated?
I'm not sure we are disagreeing at all, I think we are just looking at the same things in different ways.
>>81195376
Selfishness is a part of nature, before we had convinient trade and industrialised agriculture you might had to go out of your way to not starve. Wanting a better quality of life is selfish, but it can also be a motivation to improve all of our quality of life. This want for more has resulted in that now more people across the globe die of heart conditions rather than starvation that has throughout history been one of our biggest concerns.
So a kind of selfishness can be extended to other people and bring some good with it. It doesn't have to be the same thing as greed.
>>81183599
Explain Siegel's Silver age Superman and prove they disagreed with it. Golden Age Superman wasn't the only one they did.
>>81187700
No, not at all. Superman in BVS has no humanity. He doesn't bother talking to the people he saves, or tries to comfort him. Instead he goes along with their weird god worship. Instead of explicitly telling society he means no harm and all he wants to do his help, he lets 2 years go by without explaining any of intentions to anyone. After the senate bombing, he goes into hiding instrad of trying to figure out who was responsible. He threatens Batman and Lex with violence and comes across as a facist with a god complex in those moments. I mean good lord, he spends the entire film looking really upset, as if helping people is this huge burden he can't stand.
>>81182996
>Superman does have a tragic backstory, but it happened when he was an infant so it has no affect on him at all.
What an idiotic thing to say. Your species being extinct would have a tremendous effect on anyone especially if that species afforded you astounding ability beyond what everyone else around you could do. Have you ever met an orphan torn apart by the fact they have no clue where they came from? And they aren't even aliens that came from far beyond with insane abilities. Superman is a legit alien, come on now.
