What's the worst type of Disney villain?
The "Evil-in-the-name-hates-babies-and-puppies" villain
or the
The "Generally-nice-person-is-actually-a-dick-so-there-can-be-a-plot-twist."
Or perhaps you're also tired of the "Villain-was-bullied-and-just-misunderstood-please-watch-their-side-of-the-story-in-theaters-now."
>>81050557
Definitely the "Generally-nice-person-is-actually-a-dick-so-there-can-be-a-plot-twist." It been overdone and everyone is getting sick of it.
At least the "Evil-in-the-name-hates-babies-and-puppies" has screen time and impact to make up for it.
>>81050557
"Generally-nice-person-is-actually-a-dick-so-there-can-be-a-plot-twist."
>Simply because that is poor writing. What happened to foreshadowing? It doesn't have to be in your face. It can be subtle and people will still love it.
The "Evil-in-the-name-hates-babies-and-puppies" villain
>At the very least I still find them entertaining to watch.
>>81050557
>Or perhaps you're also tired of the "Villain-was-bullied-and-just-misunderstood-please-watch-their-side-of-the-story-in-theaters-now."
This
This is the worst
>>81050557
"Totally-evil-and-unlikable-but-also-not-all-that-threatening-or-charismatic-so-they're-just-a-pain-to-watch"
Ratcliffe from Pocahontas is coming to mind but there have probably been others.
The second one is fine if they're cute
BesidesDawn is more of a "Nice person who is misundestood because everyone is a dick to her but she still goes about fixing it in the wrong way" type of villain
Cruella da slut
Cruella da slut
if she wouldn't fuck you
you're shit out of luck
>>81050557
plot twist villains, when they don't have a proxy.
Diz flicks stick to basic stories, and if they haven't established a main antagonist by the end of the first act, the second act is inevitably filled with mostly pointless traveling from one place to another with no sense of mounting tension, which in turn undermines the payoff at the climax
>>81050557
> Generally-nice-person-is-actually-a-dick-so-there-can-be-a-plot-twist.
You mean the one they've usedfour times in a row now?
It's becoming pretty sad; I guess they perceive it as some kind of just-add-water sophistication to add to the story (or simply the producer's view: Frozen did it and it was a hit, so it IS what you do now), but what it does is mostly getting in the way of any real characterization and proper groundwork on his/her motivations
>>81050764
And chase sequences. You gotta have those. Maybe the characters won't get away!!
>>81051033
The only one that did it well was Wreck-It Ralph because of how King Candy/Turbo was such a complete asshole even before the reveal and had a threat and menace to his character.
uhh, neither? both types have been used well. why so negative
Shere Khan is a great villain because he's clearly evil and menacing but also well mannered and charming. You know he's bad, but you also love him. The way he threatens people is perfect; he doesn't torture or physically abuse, but every word he says you know is scaring the shit out of the other animals.
>>81051239
Yeah, it's well played there. At first, he's sort of a joke antagonist; then, he does some suspicious stuff, but when he confronts Ralph and tells him about the "greater good" stuff it sort of makes sense and, to your shame, you sort of agree it's for the best; thenholy crap he IS the bad guy I sort of saw It coming but still
>>81051367
Yeah, it was extremely well done in Wreck-It Ralph. Meanwhile Frozen prince guy (I don't even remember his name) turns into fucking Snidely Whiplash for little reason other than "oh shit we need an actual bad guy to replace Elsa."
>>81051367
he's the most effective version of this.
I hope the next big villain in a Disney movie is a call back to the enjoyably evil because it's fun. We could use that type again in this age.
>>81051561
I'm personally still sure they turned him into Moustachetwirl McMonologue in part to make sure no-one in the audience would feel the slightest bit bad about Anna kicking his perfectly dashing and capable fiance (who kept the citizens alive while the royals themselves were singing and traipsing along the mountains) to the curb within two days of meeting the hunky real love interest.
If he'd have been decent but mislead, which would have made more in-character sense, Anna would have appeared to be a bit flimsy about her affections, and since she's the heroine that won't do, so Hans had to be an asshole so douchey it'd nuke any romantic hopes for the Hans & Anna romance people might have
>>81050557
I hate the "Generally-nice-person-is-actually-a-dick-so-there-can-be-a-plot-twist" that leads to "Villain-was-bullied-and-just-misunderstood-please-watch-their-side-of-the-story-in-theaters-now" type of villain.
>>81051239
>I need foreshadowing so I'm not surprised and I don't seem stupid
I bet you like the reveal that Darth was Luke's father too.
>>81050602
Most of the Disney movies that have those DOES have plenty of foreshadowing (Zootopia and Wreck-It Ralph do at least). If you couldn't catch the foreshadowing that's your fault for being retarded, not the movie's fault.
>>81050635
Reminder that Disney actually made a kid-friendly version of "Hannibal: Rising" with Maleficent.
>>81050602
I agree with wreck it ralph and hadn't seen Zootopia. Don't automatically assume attitudes I hadn't expressed yet.
>>81052001
It's one of the worst things about that film: it gets credit for subverting predictable story patterns, but in the end they just keep flinching at the best opportunities to do really different things
They make part of Anna's storyline about not just getting it on with literally the first guy you meet (instead, she picks the second, and just because the first one turns out to be the motherfucking devil). The b-story should have been about not making your life goal getting a love interest (not something I'd particularly like myself, but I'd respect the move, and it would fit in really well in the Zeitgest). Keep things ambiguous enough with Kristoff; no kisses, no true love stuff. Just put the potential in for whoever will like to look for it, but don't hammer it in; happy couple endings still counts as fairytaley if you're supposed to be trailblazingly dismissing that kind of stuff to begin with
>>81052225
> Zootopia
> Foreshadowing
The villain becoming obvious because it'd be the only possible explanation unless they make the fat leopard the villain doesn't count as foreshadowing
>>81052435
Anon probably meant that post-it thing which every "real" Zootopia fan totally noticed.
>>81050557
Latter obviously.
You know what made guys like Maleficent, Cruella, Ursula, Jafar, Scar, and Hades so entertaining? They didn't feel like living plot devices shoved in at the last second like the last three ones and had actual character. At least Turbo/King Candy was characterized well before the reveal.
>>81050557
>"Generally-nice-person-is-actually-a-dick-so-there-can-be-a-plot-twist."
Infuriating, because it's so close yet so far to the superior "Nice-person-not-actually-a-villain-but-fate-and/or-ideology-means-we're-at-conflict-with-one-another-even-to-the-point-of-death".
>>81050557
What about mixed bags of the second IE supposedly "evil", but torn between being a shit or caring about others (John Silver from Treasure Planet) or having bad shit happen to him, but end up as a downright asshole through-and-through (Lotso from Toy Story 3)?
>>81052225
How did Wreck it Ralph foreshadow the villain?
>>81050557
fuck you, cruella was amazing
a great villain doesn't necessarily need the best motives, it's all about the acting
>>81051239
King Candy/Turbo also gets a pass because he did it first, and did it way better than Hans, Yokai, and Bellwether. He's the closest thing to a renaissance era Disney villain.
>>81050557
The boring not-fun-to-watch kind. Like Radcliff.
>>81050557
Come OP, when you have a truly insane criminal you can revel in the driven madness of it all.
>>81050712
>Misunderstood
She tried to have Judy killed. She smiled while doing it.
>>81050602
>>81050557
Regarding Hans, I watched Frozen already spoiled about him, and I say that the twist made fuckton of sense.
Hans's characterization was all over the place. Rewatch his lovable dork act towards Anna during their song scene and how ruthless he was towards the duke.
Watch him being a competent regent and realize he was appointed as one because he made (seemingly) irresponsibly stupid decision of allowing the always sheltered princess he (seemingly) loved ran after her dangerous sister all alone.
His character wouldn't make sense if not the reveal he was putting on act to fool people.
>>81056696
This. People are asshurt because Disney managed to actually pull the wool over everyone's eyes. I mean, fucking watch Love is an Open Door and pay attention to him. There's this thing called subtext, and subtext isn't having him secretly grin the second Anna isn't looking. Hans was more than comfortably ok with marrying this random princess, and he seemed way too in control when Elsa went berserk and fled.
Most of these faggots would be victims of a female Ted Bundy, guaranteed.
I'm more unhappy about how little charisma modern Disney villains have. Older Disney villains had very strong characterizations, and as a result, they've become timeless classics. Hans would be lucky if anyone remembered him five years from now..
>>81057224
Prince Hans has quite a following not because of his status as a villain in a top-grossing film, but because the character has such potential. He intelligent, cunning, not what he seems- he's an iceberg.
>>81058306
And yet, he'll never compare to the likes of Scar, Jafar, Maleficent, Cruella, etc., etc.
Monstro and Chernabog are my favorite Disney villains. Largely it's because they're both incredibly designed/animated and scary/menacing, but also because what makes them great villains is they aren't caricatures or have convoluted motives. They're literally a whale and a demon doing exactly what a whale and a demon do. They're not misunderstood or "being evil for fun". They're nigh unstoppable forces of nature.
>>81058584
I think personality is important.
>>81058366
No, but he could become the greatest Disney Prince of all time (the guy who snags Elsa wins life).
>>81058584
>They're literally a whale and a demon doing exactly what a whale and a demon do
so they're not even villains dumbass. there are no villains in Pinocchio
>>81059224
>Fox
>Guy who bought Pinocchio
>>81050557
>The "Generally-nice-person-is-actually-a-dick-so-there-can-be-a-plot-twist."
I'd love this if it could be done right. Zootopia and Frozen had genuine sociopaths just pretending to be good people. I want a villain whose antagonism is the logical conclusion of all the seemingly-nice things they'd been doing before.
>>81059272
they're not villains, just temptations for a little boy to be naughty and shit
The problem is these villains make for rather dissatisfying final conflicts.
You're not gonna see a climactic showdown with the sheep or Hans like you would with Beast and Gaston, or Tarzan and Clayton, or Simba and Scar.
>>81059440
>implying WiR didn't have a climatic showdown as fuck
>>81059473
I'll be honest. I don't actually remember a whole lot from Wreck-It-Ralph. I don't even remember what the villain looked like.
>>81052999
you must be retarded
there's an entire exposition about turbo
and he's referenced before king candy shows up
>>81059519
congrats to being a fucking retard then
>>81050557
What's wrong with villains being openly evil for the sake of being giant dicks? I'm sick of the plot twist bullshit of 2 and the Fangirl pandering of 3.
Villains don't need to be complex, just compelling.
Just saying, it was completely obvious Hans turned out to be a dick.
Villains who enjoy being evil are much better because you get to see them relish it and have fun with it.
>>81059373
Which, in a movie about being a good boy, makes you the villain.
>>81059622
Pic obviously not related.
>>81059903
ill disagree and say it wasnt obvious. however, it was completely fucking stupid. his SECRET VILLAIN REVEAL was such bullshit to see unfold, and made zero sense.
honestly, i dont even think frozen needed an overt/mustache-twirling villain. i think frozen could've gotten away with the message that love doesn't come at first sight, that it takes time to grow, and that there isn't just one type of "true love".
the whole "kiss to cure anna" scene wouldve been so much more powerful if hans if they ended up kissing and finding out she wasn't cured, because WOAH HOLY SHIT, expecting to love someone after meeting them once is stupid.
he could've gracefully walked out of the movie by then (realizing there was nothing he could do) and the rest of the movie could've easily played out the same.
>>81060763
Let me rephrase that. It was obvious to me.
>>81052819
That this didn't happen in Toy Story 2 is a crime of the highest order. Everything was basically set up to giving the Prospector a fittingly tragic end, but then they cop out because they just have to make him evil for no other reason than to deny the moral ambiguity that had already been established.
>>81065893
Eh, meant to respond to >>81052616
>>81053138
Gothmel is part of the renaissance so no.
>inb4 someone memes Gothmel did nothing wrong
>>81050557
the one thing entertainment needs to do is: Surprise the audience.
That's it.
By now the "Generally-nice-person-is-actually-a-dick-so-there-can-be-a-plot-twist." type or the misunderstood type is so common, everyone expects it, so a straight forward chewing the scenery villain is unexpected and would be fun change of pace. For a while.
Best case is of course, if the writer simply makes im naturally evil, out of the situation not out of necessity. That way you can always make his character surprising, no matter how he turns out
>>81066490
woah, put that edge away, you might hurt yourself
