>The great Cap himself has no qualms about tossing a loki mind controlled thug off the side of a hellicarrier. He has killed plenty
>Hawkeye is a literal shield sniper and has busted bunkers full of people with explosive arrows
>Thor was wringing necks in TDW
>Widow openly shoots thugs
>IM gladly puts down terrorists and extremis soldiers.
Matt seems like one of the only heroes in the MCU with that code. The avengers arent that far off from the punisher in that they put down the bad guy. Why has the "no killing bad guys" code never been brought up with the MCU Avengers? In universe and out
Because refusing to kill bad guys is dumb. And Matt's really inconsistent at his rule.
I think it's because of the level of threat they're up against. Matt fights street level criminals in lower stake situations, so his choice not to kill is easier to uphold. The Avengers are literally fighting to save the world from destruction.
>>81013051
Drone
Also OP, the Avengers are just glorified cops
>>81013083
>Drone
?
>>81013029
Cap only kills to defend himself or others, if the bad guy was down in the ground bleeding, unconscious, or pleading for mercy then Cap wouldn't kill him.
Punisher however kills regardless and shows no mercy
>>81013029
>The avengers arent that far off from the punisher in that they put down the bad guy.
There's a difference between being willing to kill someone in a fight and killing people in cold blood like Frank does. He hunts down and executes people outside of situations where they're an immediate threat.
>>81013115
fair enough point anon, good one
>>81013029
Who cares, they are bad guys, just shoot them in the face.
>>81013029
A refusal to kill doesn't make you morally superior.
It's your right to have that code and no one should force you to kill when you don't wish to do so, but killing enemy in combat situations isn't immoral especially if you're part of an outfit that's allowed to do so. The only one who may be morally reprehensible in any form is Cap and even then there's a decent chance he wasn't a mind controlled goon and just a terrorist hired by Hawkeye because FUCK SHIELD.
>>81013144
That's not always the answer, Frank.
>>81013029
I think it's a little bit different, but I do think Matt is the most pure MCU hero with Cap in second.
>>81013051
Not really. Unless we're talking the ending of Season 2. He was letting Elektra stick people left and right.
>>81013195
>The only one who may be morally reprehensible in any form is Cap and even then there's a decent chance he wasn't a mind controlled goon and just a terrorist hired by Hawkeye because FUCK SHIELD.
I'm pretty sure it was stated that Loki was "working" (ie; controlling) with members of groups hostile to SHIELD during that movie.
>>81013029
I would say Matt has the luxury of a smaller scope.
With the Avengers: the word is in the balance. They need to make split second decisions about what to do in the heat of the moment. A single mook left unchecked could carry out Loki's backup plan, or HYDRA's B Game.
Total world control is in the balance.
Matt? Worst case scenario, his beat up crooks serve a sentence and have the POSSIBILITY of reoffending, committing a crime like theft, or yeah - murder. But it's a small chance after what he does to them...
Matt isn't burdened by conflicts as large as the avengers - who by the way, not as heroic as you'd think.
Roll call -
Natasha Romanov: assassin and spy. Kills for work.
Clint Barton: assassin and spy - kills for work then goes home to his farm with his wife and kids.
Thor: "God" of another realm who think human lives are pretty small in the scheme of things.
Hulk: unstoppable rage monster
Iron Man: narcissistic self destructive mad scientist
Cap: a soldier who knows that SOMETIMES in a war? You gotta stop the bullies, no matter where they're from.
>>81013029
not killing =/= morally better
sometimes killing is good and not killing is evil
>>81013296
And yet it solves the problem, every single time. It might open up new problems in the process, but never anything a little more face shooting can't solve.
>>81013330
I was talking about the two notable moments in Season 1 - Nobu and roof guy.
>>81013029
In the MCU or in general?
Matt's defines Catholic guilt either way, so even if he doesn't always live up to it, he rakes himself over the coals like none other.
>>81013330
They were undead ninjas, do they count?
>>81013646
Roof guy didn't die, nobu was an accident
>>81013029
Difference is that DD is a vigilante where as the Avengers are the planet's first and line of defense against threats even SHIELD can't handle.
>>81013029
There's basically 3 levels of killing. Well, you could probably divide it up into more than 3, but for this comparison we only need 3.
>I will never kill under any circumstances. I only fight to incapacitate
>I will fight to neutralize a threat, may kill if necessary to win, but will allow my enemies to surrender, and will take them prisoner if possible
>Bad guys deserve to die and I will kill them even as they beg for mercy
The Avengers, Frank, and Daredevil are each at different levels.
>>81013195
>but killing enemy in combat situations isn't immoral especially if you're part of an outfit that's allowed to do so
youre missing the point of a personal code of morality anon
even if your boss tells you to kill somebody youre making the choice to either do so or lose your job
but its still a choice and being part of "an outfit that is allowed to kill" doesnt just excuse personal responsibility
>>81014080
You're right but at the same time I don't think "I will NEVER EVER KILL EVER" is necessarily always right. A soldier can be ordered to kill a terrorist who is about to detonate a bomb. That same soldier could be ordered to burn down an enemy village.
I would consider both of those acts to be very different morally even if they were both "part of the job"
>>81014080
personal responsibility of Avengers is to protect civilians and the world, not to keep bad guys breathing
Please stop Batmaning every comic hero. Not even Superman is above killing if it needs to be done. Killing bad people is a good thing if there is no other option.
>Remember the bad guys on the shows you used to watch on Saturday mornings? Well, these guys aren't like those guys. They won't exercise restraint because you are children. They *will* kill you if they get the chance. Do *not* give them that chance.
Helen Parr understood that supers do not always have the option of using nonlethal force to stop bad guys. It doesn't mean you have to like it, but it does mean you may have to do it to survive. (It's when you -do- start to like it that you need to stop yourself or risk be stopped by others.)
Yes, MCU Daredevil is.
Traditionally 616 Cap never killed or used guns until some soft retcons in recent years. Not sure why the fuck that bothered people "HRUR HE WAS IN A WAR." Sure, but he's also more proficient without firearms and didn't ever need to do it.
Same with people who get butthurt about Hulk never killing an innocent. He wouldn't be sympathetic if he did.
>>81014205
This.
Fucking Incredibles was so far ahead of it's time
>>81014136
>You're right but at the same time I don't think "I will NEVER EVER KILL EVER" is necessarily always right.
This I will agree with. I liked the way a certain comic put it. Killing is never a "good" thing. But sometimes, life's dice come up badly and killing is the least bad (which doesn't mean good) option available. You should still, however, try your best to find an actual good option if reasonably possible.
>>81013029
I don't think he's morally better than at least Cap. Cap was and still is a soldier, he is moved only by sense of duty.
Matt is not only moved by sense of justice, but also by sense of how much he likes to punch criminals.
>>81013029
Comic books are literally the only place where people will actually demonize a person for killing Nazis.
>>81014397
That's just bad writing.
>>81014397
many Nazis were also just doing their duty
to them they were defenders of Western civilisation
