How do you feel about the Joker being the one to kill Bruce Wayne's parents in the 1989 Batman movie?
>>80989969
Hated it when I was a kid, still hate it now
>>80989969
Not a fan. But FUCK that guy has a great Joker face.
>>80989969
Absolutely awful. It's Sandman shot Uncle Ben-tier of terrible.
>>80989969
I never liked the plot "twist" but that guy's face is fucking awesome
>>80989969
sutpid as hell but i loved Jack Nickelson as the joker
It was one of the only flaws of that movie.
It works but I prefer it when it is just some Randy who kills his parents.
>>80990389
Randy Orton punt kicked Bruce's parents that fateful night.
>>80989969
Never read the comics, so I didn't even know it was supposed to be different.
That said: the movie got it right. Batman and Joker being, in essence, responsible for each other's creation is greek tragedy levels of pure, unadultered dramatic irony.
The later realization it was some random junkie or w/e who killed the Waynes really took away from the mythos.
>>80989969
Is it actually stated in movie that Joker did it?
A friend came up with a very weird idea that Batman was pretty much watching the face of his enemies in his dreams as the ones who killed their parents. Something like some sort of psychological trauma.
>>80989969
>Joker Created Batman
>Batman created Joker
Pure poetry and I love it
>>80990636
thats what i figured too his constant projection is what allows him to keep fighting his insane never ending war
I want Robin to have killed his parents cause it turns out Robin was always there and is actually just Asian so he seems like a young boy, but he was always the killer and lived to torment him
It works really well for the movie, but I wouldn't want it to be in main continuity. It makes the Joker too important rather than just another villain
>>80990629
the problem is that batman's never ending crusade on crime is a core aspect of his character. if you can so easily link it to one villain, then bruce has no reason to wage a war on crime, just a war on the joker. once he catches him why doesn't he hang up his cape and call it a job well done?
you can argue the same for joe chill, but the point of that was it was literally a random street thug, could have been any one, mugging a random family, which also could have been anyone.
>>80989969
i didn't mind it because i have no idea what batman was during that time
>>80989969
Fucking awful.
But Jack Nicholson's Joker was fucking GOAT.
>>80990629
>That said: the movie got it right. Batman and Joker being, in essence, responsible for each other's creation is greek tragedy levels of pure, unadultered dramatic irony.
i guess that's what there going for on the movies i kinda like it to think of it
Good movie, but that was stupid. It was just making some big connection between Batman and Joker that didn't need to be there.
>>80989969
>sutpid as hell but i loved Jack Nickelson as the joker
A useful dramatic device in a self-contained movie, but not something I'd want to see appear elsewhere.
Narrative laziness. I don't think Sam Hamm wanted to do that, I think that was a studio thing.
>>80990819
That is a non-issue: Batman never finds out it was Jack Napier, Joker never learns Batmans identity.
But you are right in that it works best as long as Batman believes it was a random mugging.
>>80990766
It would be like future Bruce gave Kato a time machine
Worked really well for the movie which was more of a conflict between these two massive larger-than-life personalities than it was a superhero origin movie (it was a different era).
It's certainly NOT MUH BATMAN but there's nothing wrong with that.
>>80991030
>Batman never finds out it was Jack Napier, Joker never learns Batmans identity
Have you even seen this movie?
>>80991144
>t's certainly NOT MUH BATMAN but there's nothing wrong with that.
Yeah it's Tim Burton's Batman which I'm fine with. I'd rather see more stuff like that than the assembly line cape movies
>>80991200
You're never gonna please everybody even if you try so you might as well let one artist realize their personal vision.
>>80989969
I don't like it because it would imply Joker is a fucking geezer when Batman fights him in the present. It's another reason I can't get into Gotham the show. I don't think people understand how time and aging works.
>>80989969
Least favorite part of the movie.
It makes a lot of sense in the context of the film, but his parents getting killed by some normal petty criminal has meaning to the character that this loses. Batman's parents weren't killed by a supervillain, they were killed by crime. Mundane pedestrian crime. Batman Begins does a decent job of getting this across, that Gotham is this poverty stricken city, and the mugger is just a desperate man who made a bad decision. So Batman's parents weren't killed by some freak, some bad egg, they were killed by typical human nature.
However, in the context of a film that contains both Batman's origin and the joker, linking them makes a lot of sense. Makes it feel more like one single, unified story. This is why in Begins batman gets trained by Ra's al ghul.
One of the reoccurring problems with cape films is that they tend to struggle with telling both the character's origin story and their first adventure and defeat of a villain in the same film. So most of them add some link between the villain and the origin, though they all still feel like two stories taped together. The worst example is probably Captain America: First Avenger. The first hour is a perfect origin story for Cap, and then the second hour is this tacked on mess. The reaosn it's so bad in this particular instance, of course, is because they didn't just want to tell a story about Cap fighting Red Skull, they wanted to cover his entire WW2 career so they could end the film with him getting frozen and waking up in the modern day. Thor actually manages to avert this, by having the whole film be his origin, but, then, a lot of people don't like the film for this very reason, because he's not actually Thor The Mighty for most of the film. That's the trouble with origin stories, the hero only really becomes their awesome, superhero self, at the end. So you end up with a superhero film that only has one scene of the hero actually being a superhero, as the very end.
Wasn't there an arc where Batman finds the thug who killed his parents and ends up killing him but getting nothing from it, so that's why he never kills?
>>80989969
Never cared as a kid but looking back it's a huge mistake. The Wayne's murder should just be a random criminal or junkie, not some future supervillain or contract hitman out to kill them.
>>80990141
Oh my god you are sending me into fits of rage. No one understood why I was so mad about sandman/uncle ben. My rage knew no bounds.
>>80989969
I always preferred when it was just a mugging turned deadly with some two bit thug with a gun.
I also prefer it when Joe Chill gets away with it (or at least Bruce has nothing to do with what happens to him) and Bruce never gets closure.
>>80991432
Continued: 'Hancock' is a of example of a superhero origin story, but the film itself is not a superhero film. It's comedy that just ends with the main character becoming a superhero.
Most cape films are trapped in this place of wanting to tell the origin story but also needing to tell a superhero adventure story.
Funnily enough, the only example I can think of a film that successfully does this without it being at all awkward is not based on a comic. Robocop.
>>80991620
I dunno about your last paragraph; Chill of the Night may've convinced me otherwise.
>>80989969
feelin' fine
>>80990075
faggot
>>80989969
>>80990665
Fine as a standalone story.
>>80991030
>Batman never finds out it was Jack Napier
He totally, blatantly does. It's the bloody climax of the film.
>>80990819
>why doesn't he hang up his cape and call it a job well done?
Because he doesn't want what happened to him to happen to any one else. He knows there are more bad men out there that can do this sort of thing to any random family that happens to walk the street.
The identity of the killer makes no difference. The principle remains the same. A man with a gun ruined his life one night for seemingly no reason, and it could happen again at any time.
If he did what you suggest, that would mean that he was no hero at all.
>>80990819
only if you assume he's motivated by the need for revenge rather than a desire to protect others less fortunate than himself
even as a child the world's greatest detective should have realized that in any other family, the loss of both parents would mean the loss of the home, income, and all the rest that follows on from those
if his motivation is so narrow that he's genuinely just out for revenge, then sure, kill the joker, win; but if he's genuinely trying to protect Gothamites, then he understands from the start that murder and robbery have root causes that go deeper than punching can solve, and the corruption of Gotham's police and government is his real target
>>80991675
a sentence isn't a paragraph and its just my personal taste brah
>>80989969
I saw Mask of the Phantasm first as a kid, so...eh. Could care less.
Interesting portrayal, but he was nothing until he put on the makeup.
>>80991856
You can have a paragraph that is also a sentence. They aren't mutually exclusive.
>>80991308
Gotham specifically showed how Joker could be anyone by making him a legend before the man, so there's no reason why he wouldn't still be around Bruce's age.
>>80990766
???
>>80992061
It may have been better if the audiance knew, but none of the characters did.
>>80991778
Yes, but it makes more emotional sense for him to wage a war on all crime if his parents were killed by an ordinary criminal who is therefore more representative of all crime as a concept. The more unusual and freakish the killer the less representative of ordinary crime they become. It still works either way, it just works better if it's a mundane, ordinary criminal.
>>80991308
>It's another reason I can't get into Gotham the show. I don't think people understand how time and aging works.
I fail to see the problem with the ages of the characters bro? Everyone so far is either in their later 20's to early 30's.
Last episode penguin was explicitly sated to be 31
Bruce is 12, in 13 years when bruce finally starts flying around being batman Penguin will be 44, I fail to see the problem with the penguin being one of the most sucessful mobsters in Gotham at the age of 44?
I feel like people just generally assume batman is a lot older than he is sometimes.
>>80989969
I don't see how it's a problem other than "not muh".
>>80990141
That was stupid because it was such a blatantly obvious retcon.
>>80992061
this should have been comics Joker
every time Joker gets beaten a new guy rises to take up the mantle, sometimes he's scary competent, other times he's a literal joke
>>80991821
The joker is a shitty representative of police and government corruption, anon. A lone, freakish, psychopath notorious for his nonsensical and random crimes is not a good representative of the underlying root causes of crime.
Also, Batman does mostly just punch people and is rarely seen trying to fight government corruption. You are right that if he really wants to fight crime then punching people is not the solution, but that kind of negates the entire concept of Batman. This is why people joke about Batman being a crazy fascist who sadistically beats up poor people.
>>80989969
Hello fellow CinemaSins viewer.
>>80991778
To me the best resolution of the Wayne killer was in the New 52 of all places.
The killer is once again Joe Chill, and Bruce Wayne finds out. Years before he becomes Batman, Wayne tracks Joe Chill down to some crackhouse and says "I'm Bruce Wayne". Chill is drunk, doesn't really react much other than nonchalantly saying sorry. Bruce then pulls out a gun and points it at Chill. However, Bruce relents and is unable to pull the trigger, he can't bring himself to take a life, not even a wretch like Chill. He leaves, and then goes on his Batman training journey overseas.
It's similar to Batman Begins, but has Bruce not go through with killing Chill on his own, not because of a conveniently-timed mob hit. Batman isn't doing what he does out of revenge, he's doing it because he doesn't want what happened to him to happen to anyone else.
>>80993363
>Chill is drunk, doesn't really react much other than nonchalantly saying sorry
Actually, Bruce Wayne angrily demands to know who hired Joe Chill to kill his parents, because Bruce has been investigating for years and is convinced that there must have been a reason. Chill says he just wanted money for booze and didn't even know who the Waynes were. The reveal that his parents died for nothing angers Bruce so much that he prepares to kill him, before relenting.
>>80993363
I like him wanting revenge and then being robbed of it. It explains why he's so angry. Batman isn't just a hero, he's a vengeful hero. He's not the punisher but he's got the same leanings. I think you need the revenge factor for that to really work.
Obviously Batman isn't just about revenge, but I do think that it's powerful and necesarry for a big part of it to be that his war on crime is partially fuelled by a sublimated desire for revenge that he never got. That's why he's the Dark Knight and not just a knight.
>>80991432
>>80991660
I took the time to read this so might as well reply
You're right I guess
That's it
>>80989969
Thought it was fantastic. Joe Chill is a shit character and has nowhere near as much impact.
>>80989969
I'm okay with it now. But I look at the 89 movie as this strange alt version of batman. like a strange elseworld comic done in live action. And as that the movie works. Just can't think of it as an accurate representation of the comic.
On one hand, I like how neatly it ties everything up. It has a sense of endless struggle; how violence begets violence.
On the other hand, having the killer be just another faceless drop in the Gotham City sea of crime; an entity that represents the totality of Gotham's illness that an adult Bruce Wayne will attempt to be the cure for, is possibly more meaningful.
>>80994060
I appreciate you taking the time to read it. I didn't realise what a wall of text I was making until it was too late.
>>80994348
>But I look at the 89 movie as this strange alt version of batman
there are people who see live action adaptions as anything but this?
>>80994495
Pretty much how I feel about it as well. That reveal scene though was fucking awesome.
It's shit for the same reason things like "Clark and Bruce met as children" is shit
>>80996915
And that reason is?
I was a kid when I killed your parents I say I made you you gotta say you made me, how childish can ya get, ya wouldn't hit a guy with glasses would ya? huh?
>>80990957
Who are you quoting?
>>80997196
>>80996915
It's trying to interconnect the story just a little too much. Where it doesn't feel natural, like Deus Ex Machinia. Also back tracking of sorts an attempt to make it more interesting.
>>80997196
People will accept the impossible more readily than they accept the improbable. At a certain point too many coincidences makes a story feel way too contrived. It just feels a lot less forced if Bruce's parents' death isn't directly caused by one of his villains.
It's also just ridiculous to have two people who know each other as adults meet once as children just for some OMG DESTINY wanking
>>80989969
It was fucking stupid
Much like Batman 89 itself
The one flaw behind Jack Nicholson's Joker.
It was really, really stupid and unnecessary.
>>80989969
Been watching cinemasins I see
>>80998009
>>80991660
I felt the first half of Hitchcock was a lot stronger. Maybe it was the villains that ruined it for me later
>>80991432
I'd argue the worst would be Green Lantern.
Burton was already set on Batman killing villains left and right.
Giving a motivation for killing Joker didn't hinder anything.
Honestly? It makes a lot of sense
Its very common for a key character from a hero's future being placed in his past/origin. Reverse Flash being the best example of how it, and rebooted origin stories in general, can be done well. Same thing with Brainiac from Superman TAS
The character of Joe Chill only serves to exist so that he can kill Martha and Thomas Wayne. To introduce the Joker as the killer simplifies Batman's origins and only adds to the dichotomy bullshit of Batman and Joker that's forced down our neck every fucking time the 2 pop up together
In an origin story like Daredevil: Man Without Fear, every piece is vital. Every character serves meaning and every scene propels the story further. You can't afford to add in the Kingpin as the man who killed Battling Jack as it goes against everything that makes him important later on in the story. And this is for Daredevil, a character who's origin has been told and retold up to 3 times at that point. Hell, Stick is an addition to the Murdock Mythos too, but we're able to accept that easier than the Burton's Joker as it plays once again into ideas that Frank Miller introduced later on in ol' Horn Head's career, specifically the idea of him not having any super-powers and his radar sense being something that everybody is capable of achieving
>>80991432
>>80991660
Agreed on this. Something I seldom do.
>>80989969
That looks nothing like Nicholson.
>>80990819
>the point of that was it was literally a random street thug, could have been any one, mugging a random family, which also could have been anyone.
But that's not canon. Joe Chill gets sent out by a mob boss to whack Thomas Wayne, has a spurdo, and plugs Martha too. That's been established since... the Fifties? It's an old-ass issue anyway.
>>80989969
I actually like the Jack Napier origin to a certain degree, but didn't really care for him killing Wayne's parents. I thought TAS did it better.
>>80989969
Great in the context of the movie and Burton's Batman, wouldn't care for it as comics canon. I still think Nicholson's the best Joker, and Burton Batman's the best Batman movie.
>>80992565
Jack Napier is a mob boss, though, and even the other bosses are scared of him. He's nothing without Grissom's support but when he goes too far, Grissom sets him up to fail.
Then it goes wrong and with the edge his Joker persona gives him, he takes over the Gotham crime families, something Jack Napier couldn't have managed.
Those crime families explicitly own the cops and politicians of Gotham. This is all touched on in the film.
>is rarely seen trying to fight government corruption
He's trying to do it in a stupid way, by way of bringing down the mob from the outside. If he'd ever studied he'd know the best time and the best way to bring them down is with an inside man at a time of internal struggle, but the theory - bring down the mob - is sound.
It's the beating up muggers that doesn't really work, though in the context of this one movie, he's building a legend as a terrifying night entity that serves him well with pretty much everybody but Napier.
I like the fan theory that the Michael Keaton version of Batman ends up thinking that *every* villain killed his parents, one after the other. Keaton was great at conveying a fundamental insanity in Batman, and I think such a delusion fits in well with the way he played the character.
what would a 2016 tim burton batman film even look like? has tim burton even made any thing recently?
>>80990615
RKO!! RKO!!! BAH GAWD THAT BOY HAD A FAMILY!!!
Liked it as a kid, like it less now.
>>81002371
Johnny Depp as Batman.
Helena Bonham Carter as Catwoman.
>>80991896
worlds greatest detective.
