>http://www.salon.com/2016/03/19/adult_superhero_fans_make_daniel_clowes_sad_people_need_something_that_has_very_clear_moral_boundaries_i_guess/
>I am laughing at the fact that for years, when we were doing “Eightball” and “Hate” and “Love & Rockets” and stuff, we thought, “What we’re doing is really the mainstream stuff. It’s like comics for adults, that a general audience could read… and only the tiniest niche audience of emotional defectives care about superhero comics.”
>Right. And yet they’re dominating our industry. I remember an artist, Bob Burden, saying, “It’s so random. It would be like if all comics were about pilgrims and then we did comics about normal people and we were looked at as the weirdoes.”
>So that was our thesis, and then to see with the advent of technology where they could actually make these realistic superhero movies, to see that: No, the entire culture is what the comics shop was in 1985. It repudiates our lofty claims. It says more about our culture than anything else. I’m always kind of saddened when 45-year-old parents of my son’s friends can’t wait to go see “The Avengers.” That shouldn’t be for you. [Laughs]
>I think there’s a certain chaos in the world and people need something that has very clear moral boundaries, I guess. I’ve taken my son to see a few of the superhero movies and I just find myself tuning out the minute it starts. It’s just not of any interest to me.
>I’ll leave the movie and a day later I’ll think, “Oh, we should go see that movie.” It’s like I can’t even remember it. And he doesn’t even like them. That’s the thing, he’s sorta like, “Yeah, it was OK.” [Laughs]
>There’s no doubt about it. I find it hilarious when normal people are talking about obscure Marvel characters like they always loved them. It’s like, No you didn’t. [Laughs]
>Yeah, or just like, “Oh, that’s great, I love ‘Iron Man.’” It’s like, No you don’t. [Laughs]
[Laughs]
>>80920631
>I’ve taken my son to see a few of the superhero movies
Im surprised he could ever get his dick in a woman in the first place
Oh look, another guy whose oh high and mighty about comics, with his superior patrician taste[Laughs]
>gib me money pls
keep crying
>>80920649
>[Laughts]
>>80920631
>I'm not as big a success as I could be if only everyone liked my work instead of what's popular
Is there a word for that kind of thinking because it's some of the worst shit
>salon
lol stop, anon
>>80920631
/co/ would gnaw their own mother's throat if she said something about superheroes being immature or something. You would probably stab yourself in the tongue if you ever caught youself sleeptlking shit about superheroes... That's not a board to post this at.
>>80920781
Fuck off, Clowes
>>80920792
I'm Moore ye daft cunt
>Salon
Fuck off.
>>80920631
the inexplicable conquest of the cape genre in itself justifies cape comics treating cape comics as a legitimate artistic framework
>>80920769
dan clowes is a master and has been established as such for a while. he doesn't need help selling books.
>>80920663
>>80920670
>>80920722
>>80920769
>Some rightly criticises adult capeshit fans for being intellectually immature
>insecure manchildren engage in desperate ad hominem attacks
Like fucking clockwork
>stories about heroics will always be the most popular
Why is this so hard for people to understand?
>>80920631
>>I think there’s a certain chaos in the world and people need something that has very clear moral boundaries
>Modern superhero comics
>Having clear moral boundaries
I don't think Clowes has read any superhero comics in decades. Hickman's Avengers run among others is full of shades of gray.
In December 2013, Shia LaBeouf's short film Howard Cantour.com became available online. Soon thereafter, those familiar with indie comics noticed its remarkable resemblance to Justin M. Damiano, a comic Clowes contributed to the 2008 charity anthology The Book of Other People.[22] The short film was then removed by LaBeouf, who claimed that he was not "copying" Clowes, but rather was "inspired" by him and "got lost in the creative process." LaBeouf later issued several apologies on Twitter, writing, "In my excitement and naiveté as an amateur filmmaker, I got lost in the creative process and neglected to follow proper accreditation", and "I deeply regret the manner in which these events have unfolded and want @danielclowes to know that I have a great respect for his work." Clowes responded by saying "The first I ever heard of the film was this morning when someone sent me a link. I've never spoken to or met Mr. LaBeouf ... I actually can't imagine what was going through his mind."[23]
>Legal representatives of Clowes also sent a cease-and-desist letter to LaBeouf[24][25] concerning another tweet stating he intended to make a second film plagiarizing Clowes.[26]
>>80920892
>stories about heroics will always be the most popular
Well why are the stories about punching, making shitty jokes while punching and MAKING HARD DESICIONS more popular then?
>>80920631
You can like both, can't you?
Just because I like watching Spidey fight with Green Goblin doesn't preclude me from appreciating more nuanced art.
I can understand his disillusionment a bit though; the fact that an entire medium is essentially dominated by a single genre can get a bit tiresome at times.
His take is basically "Stop liking what I don't like", dressed up as critical analysis by using multi-syllabic vocabulary. I can see why Gary Groth loves him.
A lot of these articles roughly translate to "My pretentious slice of life book doesn't sell as well as an Spiderman or Superman, two American cultural icons."
>Wah every adult should be as joyless and elitist as I am
Prick
>>80921016
The fact that capeshit like Spiderman or Superman are American cultural icons says a lot about the lack of maturity of most Americans.
>>80921039
Yeah, he does come of as a cunt.
He has a fair point that there isn't much variation in genre within the comic book industry but
>only the tiniest niche audience of emotional defectives care about superhero comics
>'emotional defectives'
It's a needlessly insulting tone that makes it sound like this is more out of a need to feed a superiority complex than anything else
>>80921001
Yeah, it's weird.
In Manga and Franco-belgian comics you don't see one genre dominating everything.
>>80921067
Hi, Alan.
>>80921067
Doesn't the same apply to the Ancient Greeks telling tales about Hercules?
>>80921001
This. When I started getting into comics, I cut my teeth on Ditko's Spider-Man, Swan's Superman, The Hernandez Brothers' Love & Rockets and Woodring's Frank. I put Harvey Pekar and Moebius above writers like Roy Thomas and Grant Morrison, but I still enjoy Roy's and Grant's stuff as well.
>>80921086
I'm 80% sure I read somewhere that Japan's going through a glut of high school drama manga these days. Damned if I can find the link, though...
>>80921101
Hercules is real.
On one hand, he has a point: there needs to be more variation in the comic book industry - or the Big Two, at least - if it ever hopes to grow. Capeshit won't keep the boat afloat forever.
On the other hand, he has no place trying to police what other adults enjoy.
So according to him I can't enjoy the latest Ms. Marvel while still enjoying stuff like Saga and even his own Ghost World? I can't enjoy Metal Hurlant/Heavy Metal while still enjoying Superman?
>>80921165
No you fucking child. Grow up.
>>80920631
>So that was our thesis, and then to see with the advent of technology where they could actually make these realistic superhero movies, to see that: No, the entire culture is what the comics shop was in 1985. It repudiates our lofty claims. It says more about our culture than anything else. I’m always kind of saddened when 45-year-old parents of my son’s friends can’t wait to go see “The Avengers.” That shouldn’t be for you. [Laughs]
I remember people making this claim when Phantom Menace came out. "Hey man, its supposed to be big, dumb and stupid. Star Wars is supposed to be for kids!"
>There’s no doubt about it. I find it hilarious when normal people are talking about obscure Marvel characters like they always loved them. It’s like, No you didn’t. [Laughs]
This is so fucking true and one of those things that has been grinding my gears for years now. Ever since Iron Man came out in 2008 all of the sudden you get these people who think their Marvel comics experts and shit, but like fuck you didn't know who Jessica Jones was before this year. I read the fucking comics when they came out. And I'm supposed to capitulate to this bitch like she owns the fandom?
>all this capefag butthurt
>>80921121
you don't even need a source, it's plain to see that a disproportionate amount of manga stars highschool students regardless of the kind of story it is
>>80921181
>these people
>she
wew lad
>>80921195
Anything to keep the NEETs happy, I suppose.
>>80920631
Is this guy laughing at people for being secondaries or for liking comics?
Either way he's coming off like an autis.
>>80921181
>DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ME YOU FILTHY CASUAL
>Dan Clowes
>>80921207
Whereas capefags are soooo intelligent...
>>80920649
I do hate it when interviewers write that down. It never fails to irk me, no matter the context.
>>80920781
My mom said for years the shit I enjoyed was for kids.
But now superheroes are big, and she's a complete tool who will instantly accept anything if the majority goes along with it so now she has no issue with what I enjoy.
I think the fact she accepts it now just because it's popular pisses me off than when she shit on it for being immature.
>>80921219
>webcomic loser hating on a real creator
You don't say?
>>80921227
Because he's happy and you aren't?
>>80921220
We all know manga and it's readers are superior to comics.
>>80921237
>capes are impopular
>capefags whine
>capes become popular
>capefag whine
>>80921259
>impopular
wut
>>80921067
Yes, only Americans like Superman and Spider-Man.
The rest of the world hates them.
Clearly.
>>80921259
Bad news Freehaven, I filtered you long ago.
>>80921272
>defeated the truck
More like parodies them.
>>80921243
>Because he's happy and you aren't?
Nice projecting m8.
I don't like it because I find it impersonal and awkward when written down. It's not about Clowes, it's about interviews in general.
>>80921259
>impopular
>>80921294
In that case, don't read plays or transcripts, ever.
>>80921302
The 1950s, dude. Do you even capes?
>>80921287
>Not knowing about Japanese Spider-Man
It's not a parody, it was a real show. Spider-Man was so popular in Japan that they made a live-action TV show about him.
"Defeated the truck" is just another example of awkward translation.
>>80921086
manga does but it's more in phases and even shit like naruto ends eventually compared to the big 2 which are eternal
>>80921243
>webcomic loser hating on a real creator
That was just him having fun. He doesn't seem to have a problem with having a blurb of Clowes' recommendation in Megahex.
>>80921322
>It's not a parody, it was a real show
What's the difference? Many Japanese movies and shows look like parodies to me.
>>80921337
that's only because you're a mega-autismo
>>80921336
Understandable; the nly reason why that webcomic loser is there is because Fanta wants some of that tumblr money, so that beingit's hard to use "he" or "she" with those LGBTshas to be kind to real creators.
>>80921337
That's beside the point.
Someone said "The fact that capeshit like Spiderman or Superman are American cultural icons says a lot about the lack of maturity of most Americans."
I pointed out that those characters are popular in other countries too.
>>80921337
>Many Japanese movies and shows look like parodies to me.
It's almost as if Japan is an entirely different culture that you don't "get". But that can't be the case, can it?
>>80921349
>2DEEP4U!
>>80921355
Yeah, but they're not a religion in those other countries.
>>80921360
Who are you quoting? I'm just saying not being able to differentiate satire or not is a sure-sign of autism
>>80921379
>satire
Because le manga is DEEP and INTELLECHUL, right?
>>80921360
>>80921388
>>80920914
Yeah, in fact, I recall Chuck Dixon complaining about the exact opposite. He hated how modern comics were grim and gritty and had "moral relativism", which he somehow blamed on liberals.
>>80921388
I'm not defending manga or western comics. I'm just stating the fact that >>80921337 probably has a case of the Auts, is all
>>80921396
>manga is stupid like me
Nice to know we finally agree.
>>80920914
>I don't think Clowes has read any superhero comics in decades.
Why should he? Capes died 20 years ago.
>>80921420
>I'm not defending manga or western comics
Nice backpedaling, bro.
>>80921400
Well, then he shouldn't have written franchises where bad guys usually escape the good guys.
>>80920631
God damn why are comic writers so disgustingly pretentious and full of shit.
Do you think Anton Chekhov whined to everyone because The Importance of Being Earnest was more popular than Three Sisters?
Or did Arthur Miller cry because Annie Get Your Gun was more popular than All My Sons?
Like seriously, why don't these pretentious fucks get that sometimes people just want to have fun.
>>80921437
>le references to famous playwrights
/lit/ pls
>>80920631
Let's leave Clowes' comments aside for a moment.
I read Ghost World and liked it, is the rest of his work worth checking out?
>>80921437
>literature should be stupid like me!
>>80921455
Yes, definitely. Eightball, Like a Velvet Glove Cast in Iron...
>>80921458
No, they just imply some autism fetish.
>>80921471
>fetish
Throwing around any words you can now, eh?
>>80921165
Ghost World is garbage, possibly the least-interesting thing he's ever done.
Fuck off you fake "fan".
>>80920631
So he's simulatenously insulting comic fans and "fake" fans
So we can all agree that any person that judges quality entirely on some minute external factor like if the main characters wears a cape and saves people is a complete fucking idiot right?
To say guys like Grant Morrison, Chuck Austen, Alan Moore, Mike Mignola, Scott Lobdell, Moebius etc. are all worthy of the exact same blanket dismissal because of the GENRE that they work in is insane. Yes the comic industry leans HEAVILY in the superhero direction, but that's the history of the industry. That's how it was created and that's how it has supported itself.
I agree that most of the modern movies like the Avengers are terrible brain dead children's films that bore me within minutes but what the fuck does poor filmmaking have to do with superhero comics? The movies aren't inherently awful because they star super heroes, they're awful because they're committee created and there's no reason for quality because they'll be successful in any case.
>>80921456
You're the only one who is stupid here bro.
But seriously, noone else but comicbook writers act like this.
Hell look at Shakespeare for fuck sake. He understood that there were times to be serious and times to be silly.
This is a guy who wrote Hamlet, which is a play filled with some of the most complex character interactions and well elaborated character development in literature, perfectly capturing a young mans descent into complete madness. This is also the guy who wrote Much Ado About Nothing, which is essentially the gross out sex comedy of the time.
But nah senpai Dan Clowes is 100% right, if an adult isn't 100% serious 24/7 it's pathetic and sad, everyone should just be miserable like him.
>>80921540
>So we can all agree that any person that judges quality entirely on some minute external factor like if the main characters wears a cape and saves people is a complete fucking idiot right?
Yeah, but it works in the other direction as well.
When people like Morrison tell me how amazing and important and uplifting the superhero genre (and every work in it) is then I know he's an idiot too.
>>80921550
tl;dr. Sorry /lit/.
>>80921540
>any person that judges quality entirely on some minute external factor like if the main characters wears a cape and saves people is a complete fucking idiot
Yer not the chuffin' full shillin'?
Why is it so hard for writers of all people to get the concept of escapism? People get enough real shit in their actual lives they have to deal with. It shouldn't be a surprise they're not looking for more in their fiction
>>80921602
Escapism is fine in small doses
When browsing thematic websites hunting for pictures snapped at the shooting of Captain America 8 Part III becomes the main topic of you dailty thoughts and conversations, it's the first sign of brain degradation
>>80921602
And yet gossip stories sell like hotcakes...
>>80921237
I think noone can seriously say that capes are mature. No matter how many adult concepts and storytelling techniques you put in a cape comic, it still remains a power fantasy aimed at being cathartic. You can have satire about capes or meta-capes, but those just mirrors to capes, not alternatives to the simple kiddie storytelling that is inherent to the concept of costumed vigilantes.
There is no such thing as a mature superhero comic or movie. I still like it, but let's call it what it is.
>>80921582
I seem to recall Morrison also taking a swipe at Chris Ware and other non-cape comic writers for having a bad attitude seemingly for not writing escapist fiction.
>>80921641
>fine in small doses
This. I have the same opinion about pulp fiction: one or two stories in a day is fine, but a whole magazine? Ugh.
>>80921662
I wish Morrison knew to how to write a sad superhero story, a la Ware.
>>80920631
Yeah, he certainly sounds like the kind of self-important douchebag Salon would write an article about.
>>80921602
>Escapism = cape
>>80921550
I think your comparisons to literature are off-base, in that there are times when a genre or book might be *popular*, but no times when the medium is completely *dominated* to the extent that comics are.
There are people on this planet RIGHT NOW who have no idea that *any* non-superhero comic even exists. For them, comic==superhero and superhero==comic and that's that.
And what is the effect of this? I'd say it's the reason why almost nobody reads comics.
You know why superhero movies are so popular but comics are so unpopular? Because people think that movies are full of variety and only occasionally about superheroes-- they think that they can watch a superhero movie this week and then go back to watching non-superhero movies next week-- but they think that comics are exclusively a never-ending stream of only superheroes and nothing else, and they have no interest in getting invested in that.
Capes are strangling comics.
>>80921656
is Homer's odyssey mature? Is Dante's divine comedy? is Virgil's aeneid? is the epic of gilgamesh? the book of samuel? journey to the west? the Mahabharata? 1001 Arabian Nights?
>>80921642
Gossip stories are fiction mostly, though.
Glossy magazines basically take cherrypicked stock photos of famous people looking mildly fat, ill, angry or sad and invent pompous stories around it.
That's basically mean spirited fan fiction.
>>80921746
>capes are as good as the classics of literature
>>80921641
Anything is fine in small doses, not just just escapism.
>>80921752
Yes, they're not fantastic fiction but they're equally escapist.
>>80921764
No one is saying that, but Clowes' argument would dismiss every one of those works.
>>80921772
And yet you're always consuming capeshit...
>>80921781
Why, exactly?
>>80920631
Abloo Bloo Bloo. Maybe he'd be more successful if he wasn't a whiny hack.
>>80921791
Oh, he is successful; in fact, he became successful without making capeshit, which has a lot of merit.
>>80920631
Based
>>80921746
Dante's divine comedy is political satire. Homer's odyssey is a lyrical text. And 1001 Arabian Nights doesn't have something akin to superheroes in it, as far as I know. All of these were groundbreaking works of genius IN THEIR OWN TIME.
Besides, all of these and especially biblical texts and the epic of Gilgamesh are of a mature interest because they're basically a conservatory of ancient ideas about the world.
So: Capes have much in common with ancient texts, but they're written in this time and not then - superheroes simply aren't something that relates to the modern experience in any deeper way. It's fine to enjoy them, which I do greatly, but they are far removed from any form of maturity. Of course, this is not black and white, as the cape genre overlaps with other genres.
>>80921656
>There is no such thing as a mature superhero comic or movie
What's the definition of maturity here?
>>80921791
He would be more successful if he was a whiny hack writing capes.
Aren't you people always bemoaning the fact that top-selling writers like Bendis and Slott and Snyder are whiny hacks and successful?
>>80921785
>And yet you're always consuming capeshit...
As if indieshit made by English writers were anything better mate.
I don't even know why you pulled capeshit out of that post.
>>80921067
The rest of the world likes stories about heroes, too. If none of that resonates with you I'm sorry.
>>80921817
For instance, something that makes your brain actually work, not leaving you more stupid than you already were.
>>80921833
We're discussing capeshit, lad. And yeah, no one is saying 2000AD is any better.
>>80921764
there is zero difference between the kind stories told about the likes of beowulf or king arthur and the kind of stories told about the likes of black bolt or hal jordan.
your position is arbitrary
>>80921818
>being comparable to bendis or slott
Now you see the problem.
>>80921837
>posts a manga
>a kind of comic that also tells stories with no heroes
OK?
>>80921847
>the classics of literature are shit, like capes
lol
>>80921791
>That much salt on a pretzel
might as well not get one if you plan on ruining it.
>>80921862
>Kamen Rider
>not a hero
>>80921872
>that lack of reading comprehension
No wonder you only read capeshit...
>>80920631
>Salon
Jeez, OP. I call myself a liberal and even I won't read that rag. Why would you?
>>80921902
>I call myself a liberal, but I love corporate franchises
lol
>>80921862
you are intentionally misconstruing my argument to further raise contention
>>80921872
Kamen Rider is (super)heroes, but everybody who knows about manga knows that non-(super)hero manga exist too.
We're at the point now where there are people who know about superhero comics but have no idea that non-superhero comics exist.
The rest of the world likes stories about heroes, but only America could let heroes poison the perception of an entire medium.
>>80921862
>kamen rider
>not a hero
Surely I'm being trolled.
>>80921181
>This is so fucking true and one of those things that has been grinding my gears for years now. Ever since Iron Man came out in 2008 all of the sudden you get these people who think their Marvel comics experts and shit, but like fuck you didn't know who Jessica Jones was before this year. I read the fucking comics when they came out. And I'm supposed to capitulate to this bitch like she owns the fandom?
oh my god who even cares
>>80921841
>For instance, something that makes your brain actually work, not leaving you more stupid than you already were
I don't think that there's anything in the genre of capes that precludes that.
>>80921817
Maturity in a story for me is the reflection of actual human sensitivity in that given time. I don't want to say "realism" because that is associated with grim and gritty storytelling. What I mean is that subtle problems people have in real life should be represented and solven/not be solved in a non-trivial way. It's not a measure of general story quality, but of complexity in the depiction of the human experience.
Take All-Star Superman for example: This is a fine work of art to me. It soothes me and gives me hope. But I would not call it mature, exactly because it is so forcefully concentrated on that simple notion of hope. It ignores the subtleties associated with that. Again, fine work of art which emotionally resonates with me but does not actually reflect the complex experiences we have every day.
Take Gotham Central on the other hand as an example of cape-related, but mature stuff: Again, fine work of art and I also would call it mature in some way, because it more closely and more complex reflects what humans go through every day.
It's perfectly fine to enjoy capes. Capes can be a work of art and beautiful. They can give us hope DESPITE the complexity of our lives. But generally they do not REFLECT that complexity and subtlety, which is what I would argue a mature work always does.
>>80921847
How about the fact myths and legends were created to impart cultural beliefs and values, whereas capeshit is created to make a profit?
I could perhaps agree if there was one "Superman legend" but there isn't. Capes are just churned out and rebooted in perpetuity for one reason and one reason only, to make money. People keep reading them for the same reason they keep going to Starbucks, because it's safe and familiar and they know what they're getting. I did used to read capes but Jesus I soon got bored and wanted something different.
>>80921550
>>80921594
But Shakespeare's contemporaries thought he was pleb shit
>>80921987
Myths and legends were often created as propaganda.
>>80921923
America's the only place to have to deal with this shit for decades. Plus the only reason it happened at all is because the industry WASN'T all capeshit for kids at the time and moral guardians thought it should have been
>>80921910
You trying to point out some hypocrisy, friend?
>>80921809
They're also the surviving greatest hits from a period that have gone through hundreds if not thousands of years of editing and polishing, rather than an entire modern genre. Shakespeare's pretty great, sure, but there were many, many, many more poets, baladeers and theatrical writers during his day, some of them were as popular as him at the time, and a lot of their output is shiiiiiiiit. Even by the standards of the time, which are all over the place because of the constraints of the era, the cultural mores, the amount of time and effort people put into making them, and the relative lack of choice in literary entertainment. One or two might survive, but there's a reason "A strumpet'f dishonour: Beeing a maidf adv'f ftroll thru debauchery in five actf' gets completely forgotten.
>>80921957
>But I would not call it mature, exactly because it is so forcefully concentrated on that simple notion of hope.
Ah, so you need the perception of "complexity" to be mature.
I don't even like superhero comics but I really don't see the problem here. Even if someone general likes fiction with more depth to it it doesn't mean they can't be in the mood for an easy to digest MCU movie every now and then for example. It feels like a really pretentious idea to think someone can only exclusively enjoy simple action flicks or something with more artistic merit.
>>80922017
Yes, impart cultural beliefs and values, that's what I said.
How do you think you create a coherent society without convincing/manipulating people to share the same values? Literally every society on the planet does that to their children.
>>80921987
>I did used to read capes but Jesus I soon got bored and wanted something different.
Well bully for you.
>>80922023
I still maintain that Archie and DC created the comics code specifically to drive EC out of business.
>>80922051
>It feels like a really pretentious idea to think someone can only exclusively enjoy simple action flicks or something with more artistic merit.
That's snobbery for you.
clowes never said you cant like both guys
he just doesnt like it himself and thinks that people who only like "shallow" media like capeshit and not more "complex" stuff are stupid
you guys are seriously misrepresenting clowes here
Oh please will you all shut the fuck up! Look this is the great debate in comics, you can complain all you want but indie comics were never mainstream material. I mean have you ever see Love and Rockets referenced on tv and not just by name? Also it's stupid how flooded American comics are with superheroes, but that's how the industry is, but what can you do changed the taste of everyone? Neither side has perspective, like back in 2000's there was a glut of indie autobiography comics, it was not just blankets, there was so many at the time. Hell indie chases more trends than anything else. They also never last in the public conscious. Like think who are the most famous indie comics characters? For a while it was The Teenage Mutant Turtles. So yeah the industry is fucked lets just burn it to the grown and see who lives.
>>80922053
>impart cultural beliefs and values
Capeshit became the dominant genre due to the Comic Code of Authority's attempt to do just that.
>Clowes
You mean the guy who writes about how being a middle class American is the greatest struggle?
>>80921809
>Dante's divine revenge fic
>everyone who was mean to me is in eatong shit
>people I like are in heaven with all the saints.
>>80922043
Yes, and of course the story would need to "ring true" also. Not complexity for complexities sake.
So maturity doesn't automatically mean "better than immaturity" for me. Immature works can have resonance, but they do so through very simplistic, distanced from life notions. All Star Superman is more of a philosophical exploration of what hope and optimism is in idealistic form. It's so abstracted that it does not reflect actual nuanced human experience in a way meaningful to this particular time.
Again, I don't mean that immaturity means bad. I just mean that capes are a simple concept set in modern times instead of simple times. If the myth of Gilgamesh were to be invented now, it would not make any wave and seen as kids stuff because it's so cognitively simple relative to what is cognitively possible today.
>capeshit defense force
This is why this industry sucks.
>Look at me and praise me, for my taste is so much better than yours. Meanwhile your taste is terribly wrong, you ought to be a kid or retarded to have that kind of taste.
Caring about whether or not you like "adult" things is what teenagers trying to look adult do.
Some people never grow out of it though.
>>80922122
>MUH ENNUI
So mature and complex.
>>80920631
>Americans
>culture
Maturity is preferring escapism to reality while still partaking in it.
>>80921158
>there needs to be more variation in the comic book industry - or the Big Two, at least - if it ever hopes to grow. Capeshit won't keep the boat afloat forever.
The boat is made of capeshit. The boat was built with capeshit and has had every original part replaced with capeshit. There's a few planks of Image and a poop deck made from the Walking Dead, even a mizzenmast of Saga, but the boat is mostly capeshit.
The worst selling Superman is as 55,000 issues is still several times the Wicked + the Divine's regular 10,000. You can't scuttle a boat on purpose to replace it with a dingy.
>>80921987
If you were going to get deep about it, cape heroes share some attributes with folk heroes where there's a basic few stories that are probably intended to give a lesson and then get progressively wackier stuff added to them over time because people make up new shit to top the old stories and sell their interpretation. You know how X character works (jovial / vengeful / smartass) so put him into Y new situation (courting someone / fighting something / doing something new and impressive)
Capes bypass some of the cultural mythology aspect by being actively pushed by mega media corporations as part of the branding and merchandising rather than developing more organically over a long time. Its not just some old coot talking about Paul Bunyan and his giant cow to entertain children and explain why there's no more forest, its a large profit driven enterprise trying to exploit a niche to its fullest having helped kill off their competitors. The company have it in their interest to link their corporate mascots to established popular political and social ideas, and establish their pretty odd niche as an essential component of the American cultural framework.
Or something, I don't know, I'm talking out of my ass.
>>80921351
Simon Hanselman identifies as non-binary and uses male pronouns.
>>80920631
>why aren't my comics as popular?
>these movies suck! STOP SEEING THEM! WATCH GHOST WORLD!
>>80920631
>and only the tiniest niche audience of emotional defectives care about superhero comics
what a faggot
>>80921370
>a religion
There's maybe less than half a million people in America who read comics consistently, which I'd say is still at cult numbers.
>>80922246
>what is the modern depiction Santa Claus
Coke pushed the jolly fat fuck hard.
I don't think he is that wrong. At least he admits it's not for him and has a bit of humor about it.
>>80921987
>whereas capeshit is created to make a profit?
It's 2016, nearly everything is created for profit.
That's a worthless standard for gauging the authenticity of something.
>>80922110
>clowes never said you cant like both guys
>he just doesnt like it himself and thinks that people who only like "shallow" media like capeshit and not more "complex" stuff are stupid
>you guys are seriously misrepresenting clowes here
We wouldn't have something to argue about if we were reasonable.
>It's like, "I'm an asshole"
>>80921437
George Bernard Shaw hated Shakespeare because Shakespeare was popular than him. Shaw of all people. Fucking Shaw.
>>80922340
Can you really not see the difference between writers and artists creating their own original works driven by their own creativity and publishers taking a chance on them, and megacorporations paying writers and artists to churn out more stories about their popular copyrighted franchise characters?
Read some Euro comics sometime. I don't think many creators over there sit down to create with the intention of getting a fat paycheck first and foremost in their minds.
>>80921086
Yes you do, it's just less pronounced and more mutable. There are and always will be cultural trends.
The problem is Clowes isn't seeing it at all: when comic books started superhero stories took off but there were periods of horror, romance, etc. comics too. There were different trends and specialist publishers within the industry. As that industry consolidated (and effectively died, going by publication figures vs. publication figures) you ended up with one hardcore fan group being dominant. That's continued ever since, more-or-less - until now, maybe, actually, because if you compare superhero numbers vs. non-superhero numbers in the industry just now I think they'd be a lot closer than they have been in a long while. Separate from that, movies right now are going through a phase where superhero movies are the trend like cowboy movies have been a trend, like teen movies have been a trend.
Daniel Clowes is linking the superhero comics and the superhero movies together too much, without (apparently) getting in America he was always pitching to a niche industry.
Plus, once something becomes an accepted cultural touchstone it's well, a cultural touchstone. A lot of kids have read comics at one time or another: you wouldn't rag on a kid for reading comics just like you wouldn't rag on one for playing with lego. Some of those kids become adult fans of very specific stuff in the same way you get adult fans of lego.
>>80922429
>I don't think many creators over there sit down to create with the intention of getting a fat paycheck first and foremost in their minds.
I can't think of anyone who does this other than Arleston.
>>80920631
>It would be like if all comics were about pilgrims and then we did comics about normal people and we were looked at as the weirdoes.
Just because you do less known comics doesn't mean anyone views your comics as "comics for weirdos".
It's also a silly thought process because look at movies, I'm not talking about superheroes, I'm talking before. All these blockbuster action films with these protagonists that kick ass and have cool one liners(much like superheroes), they've been here since the 80s and have always dominated the industry of film in terms of money.
>
>There’s no doubt about it. I find it hilarious when normal people are talking about obscure Marvel characters like they always loved them. It’s like, No you didn’t. [Laughs]
It's like, superheroes have been dominating the industry for decades now, but you just now decided to speak up about how much you dislike them, after countless of others have spoken up about it in the last 2-3 years? I find ii hilarious when he tells me he always hated capes comics. It's like, No you didn't. [Laughs]
You idiots seriously don't know who Clowes is? he's unarguably one of the top 5 GOAT... It's just that, along with a lot of the "comix" OGs, his perception of superhero comics lies on 60s camp.
>>80922429
You're an idiot if you think the French/Euro and Japanese comics industries are not trying to make a profit.
You're gonna work in comics a feign surprise at the fact that most are about superheros.
And then blame and belittle those that did not by what you made, it's their fault for not buying.
While an immense majority of comics are about superheros, merely making a comic in another genre does not mean failure, not if its good.
And then he scolds people for being casuals?
At least he found a way to feel superior no matter what.
Can we set him up for a fatal car accident, please?
>>80921086
Are you nuts? manga is completely dominated by shonen.
>>80922485
Ya big dum dum, Clowes has been criticizing superhero comics for 30+ years. Download Eightball on kat.ph, it's still amazing.
>>80922429
>Can you really not see the difference between writers and artists creating their own original works driven by their own creativity and publishers taking a chance on them, and megacorporations paying writers and artists to churn out more stories about their popular copyrighted franchise characters?
Capes pay the bills, man. Rucka has to do occasional DC work so he can keep the lights on while he does Lazarus, Gillen is making megabucks writing Darth Vader while he does weird wizard shit at Image.
Brubaker made so much bank from Captain America vol 5 he can do whatever he wants now. Fraction and Deconnick have left Marvel all-together for Sex Criminals and Bitch Planet.
Am I supposed to disregard all that commercial work they did? Is it really inherently having less creative integrity? Warren Ellis rides commercial work like a white horse made of cocaine on a lightning bolt and does whatever he wants. Does it matter if it's James Bond or Injection at that point?
>Read some Euro comics sometime. I don't think many creators over there sit down to create with the intention of getting a fat paycheck first and foremost in their minds.
I have, a lot of them are poorly edited and paced. Blacksad is great. Moebius' stuff is often a lucid mess. Froid Équateur by Bilal was a bunch of rambling pseudosexual ideas.
>>80922523
Shonen isn't a genre you blockhead. It's the target audience of the magazine it was published in.
Shonen can be action, slice of life, fantasy, sci-fi, romance or many others.
>>80922506
>You idiots seriously don't know who Clowes is?
I've read his Acme Library collections. He's master of storytelling.
>he's unarguably one of the top 5 GOAT... It's just that, along with a lot of the "comix" OGs, his perception of superhero comics lies on 60s camp.
He can also be up his own ass.
>>80922528
I've read some Clowes and I've ordered Patience and it's on the way. Just saying, coming out and talking bout them now seems like poor timing. 10 years ago if he said this in an interview I'd at least see more honesty than now when he just sounds like he wants to join the party. Besides, my first point still stands.
>>80922485
>they've been here since the 80s
I'm no expert on the history of action movies, but I've at least seen earlier James Bond movies with big cool action set pieces, and snappy one liners, as a guy with super-gadgets fought to stop a supervillain
>>80922506
We know who Clowes is, we just think his views on capeshit makes him a pretentious snob.
>>80922582
I'm talking about that "battle shonen genre", you know, One Piece, Dragon ball, Bleach, One Punch man...
>>80920631
>hipster indie creator acts smugger than though
News at 11!
>>80922594
He's a 50 year old man that never gave a shit about superhero comics, he's been shitting on superhero comics for his entire career. He's not "coming out".
>>80921067
Superman and Spiderman are way more interesting than Smurfs or TinTin fella.
>>80921243
He publishes real books and is a New York Times bestseller. For what that's worth.
>>80922506
He made that movie with Shia labeouf right?
>>80922627
>a New York Times bestseller
That means about as much as an Oscar these days.
>>80922618
It sure feel like it. Al right, you're 25 and wan to shit on capeshit? fine, do it. 5 years later, still shitting on capeshit in interviews? alright then. 10 years late, well, buddy, it's time to just drop it and live your life at this point. You've made your thoughts on the matter known already.
>>80922616
>though
He's just giving his opinion on the state of the industry. Because he was asked.
>>80921400
No, he basically thought that cape books had an all age audience and thus shouldn't go into political stuff that little timmy would be confused by, like gay marriage, etc.
It's weird, because he writes women better than most women and inserts lots of gritty real world stuff into his books.
>>80922616
Doesn't this kid have any parents?
>>80922654
It's just some dude asking, another dude replying. Calm down.
>>80920891
I felt bad that you got ignored so I decided to reply. Feel better, anon.
>>80922656
Well his opinion makes him sound like a pretentious asshole but that's just my opinion.
>>80922666
He was posessed by you, Satan.
>>80922652
Are you mad that they judge it on artistic merit and not popularity?
>>80922656
No, I agree with him. Cape movies are largely forgettable popcorn pieces and movies are either utterly light hearted or Oscar bait about gay ethiopian kids writing poetry. There's no middle ground.
At the same time, he could just say, I believe there's more you can do with the medium and we're not taking advantage of it, without sounding more grumpy than Alan Moore.
>>80922694
they kinda judge it on popularity though.
>You might think that you're enjoying things, but you're Wrong.
Oh bow, one of those kind of elder nerds.
>>80922684
He gave valid points, though. He seems to hate that they are popular instead of hating them because they're popular.
>>80922657
Dixon is behind-the-times like most old men. "little timmy" has an ipad and plays minecraft.
>>80922711
If they did Star Wars and capeshit would wipe the floor.
>>80922694
I'd like to think the devil would have better fashion sense than that.
>>80922727
And is probably already gay married.
>>80920891
They all attack him instead of defending cape comics because they're indefensible.
>>80922666
Some parents are horrible people.
>>80922616
>/fa/ would defend this.
Clowes wants to blame someone for the lack of variety in mainstream American comics. Blame the Comics Code for killing every genre but superheroes.
>>80922727
This is true, and they've all seen /b/ tier humor already if their parent let them unsupervised on the Internet, so it's a lost cause.
>>80922694
>Are you mad that they judge it on artistic merit and not popularity?
Best Supporting Male actor will almost always go to an older man with a stage background who hasn't been in "showy" roles.
Best Supporting Female Actor will almost always go to a young woman in her first big breakout role so she can ride the success of that for years.
Best Film will go to a movie that confronts an "important" issue.
Best Director will go to an Academy favorite.
The Academy is overwhelmingly biased toward biopics about handicapped or closeted men, particularly period pieces from WW2. Fictional films set in-period based on real events too.
Less than a third bothers to see more than one animated film a year so Disney or Pixar will always win by name recognition.
>>80922786
I feel like webcomics are bringing variety back.
Problem is they're made by amateurs and 98% of them suck ass fumes out of an old couch.
>>80921195
>>80921205
Many people conflate anime and manga as one. I hope you two aren't doing same.
>>80921086
They also don't have to deal with the stupid shared universe and multiverse shit that plagues American comics.
>>80922815
So the academy have a type?
Honestly a reshuffle would be a breath of fresh air, I'd love if actual animation entusiasts got to vote on Best Disney/Pixar Movie (Animated)
>>80922823
>Problem is they're made by amateurs and 98% of them suck ass fumes out of an old couch.
Also, no one can tell them that the suck because their little fanbase will back them up no matter what they do. Editors are important to force someone to get off their ass and do something new.
>>80922784
Would they stick out theirneckfor them?
>>80921677
>>80921662
>>80921582
Morrison's rant about being raised working class was embarrassing.
Besides, how can anyone hate Chris Ware? He gave us Rusty Brown.
>>80921422
>1996
That's an interesting cut-off point.
>>80922823
Well Image and Dark Horse are doing their part I guess. And IDW, but almost all of their output is licensed.
>>80922761
maybe you should read the rest of the thread
>>80922871
The anime industry is in a creative downturn, too.
It just peaked in the 1980's and 1990's and then hit a brick wall.
>>80922887
I feel like the creative industry is heading in the wrong direction in this sense.
Seeing as most critics lack 'tact' or anything constructive to say at all, it easy to write them off as bullies or haters.
Now you see writers from the big two lashing out at fans on twitter and revealing that their heads are lodged up their own asses.
Having thick skin and being receptive to critique is a rare gift.
>>80922998
To be fair, anyone can anyone a huge gay faggot who sucks horse dick at any time. And a lot of things that are accepted now would have been flamed to death if the Internet had been widespread in the 1990's.
But the small mainlyliberalecho chambers and stupid stuff like New Games Journalism is a creative retreat. Just look at all of those Marvel books that are just cutesy, no edge.
>>80922990
They can't afford to pay their talent, and pander just as hard as the west (e.g. Wacky Schoolgirl Slice of life v.s. Crude Family Sitcom).
>>80923048
The yen being in the shitter and merchandise driving those shows doesn't help. Action cartoons have basically died in both the West and East.
>>80922614
One Punch Man is seinen, not shonen.
C'mon Clowes! Let's not get too sanctimonious about it. I mean, we all eat at McDonald's sometimes. We all grab a Starbucks coffee once in a while. Might as well get comfy with a little bit of capeshit too. I've got my Superman and X-men sitting next to my Acme Novelty Library and Palookaville. Chill out. It's fine.
>>80922012
No they didn't. John Milton, for example, had a huge, huge erection for the guy. There was a brief period of time when his work was considered too flashy because it didn't suckle Aristotle's teat, but even then damn near everybody conceded that he was a fantastic writer. The writers people thought were better than Shakespeare generally felt the opposite way about their own work.
>>80922930
>Morrison's rant about being raised working class was embarrassing.
How? Superman was his lifeline as a kid. Mature Adults Who only Read Serious Graphic Novels piss on that, but their books never inspired any kid.
>Besides, how can anyone hate Chris Ware? He gave us Rusty Brown.
Fuck Rusty Brown. He's a horrible person, not just because he's a nerd, but because he's a horrible person.
>>80920933
this. superheroes movies barely feels heroic
>>80923129
Not true at all. Robots aren't popular with Japanese boys but action anime do fine. Provided they have tits for the pervs.
>>80923251
Yeah, but the merchandise has gotten worst and more expensive. Compare Gyrozetter's ugly shell formers with old school Braves toys.
Hot glue toys took over everything, too.
>>80920631
>Comix creator
>Salon
It's like the cancer is real.
>>80920631
I only read Death Ray from him but found it nothing special. What's his deal?
>>80920631
To me this just feels like every person that thinks "I can't be wrong, it's everyone else that's wrong."
>>80921540
>that's the history of the industry. That's how it was created and that's how it has supported itself.
You're wrong. The first comics were in newspapers around the turn of the century and were fairly broad in subject matter - i.e. Little Nemo in Slumberland, Krazy Kat, Fritzi Ritz. The first superheroes didn't appear until the latter half of the 1930s.
Superheroes aren't the foundation of the genre historically.
>European comics constantly push the boundaries of what is possible with sequential art as a medium
>American Comics have been stuck in the same rut since the late fifties and refuse to progress.
>>80923132
It's originally a webcomic. It doesn't fall into either category because it wasn't published in a shonen/seinen publication.
>>80922614
And the industry still isn't dominated by them. Any sales chart has a lot variety.
>>80923528
That's not how it works.
>>80923528
One Punch Man is a meme series anyway. I read the first four volumes and thought it was amusing for the references but otherwise lackluster.
>>80923518
>European comics constantly push the boundaries of what is possible with sequential art as a medium
Examples?
>>80923546
They're strictly demographics so if you're not aiming your series specifically for either and self-publishing it it can't really be said to be either.
>>80923533
Yes it fucking is.
>>80923573
Metal Hurlant, 2000 AD, Fucking Moebius.
>>80923602
Those are just anthologies. And Moebius has been dead for years. Give me 10 examples of such stories published in the last 10-15 years.
>>80923518
>this is what eurofags actually believe
>indie comics
>relevant
>>80920631
>STOP LIKING WHAT I DONT LIKE
people like this make my fucking blood boil
>>80923753
If you count Walking Dead or iZombi, indies are more popular than ever. However, those are genre works, and Clowes probably hates them.
>>80923894
Genre works are the lowest tier of sequential art save for capeshit.
>>80923783
It's the sense of superiority that got me.
The only people who worry about how mature something is are children who want to seem more grown up
If you're an adult you know that it's okay to like whatever the fuck you want
>>80923894
iZombie is a DCancer property, not indie, you fat fuck.
I don't mean to hate on Clowes, but he's being a bit simplistic. He's complaining about the way the medium evolved, and this evolution happened for a bunch of reasons, including censorship in the fifties and the growing insularism of the comic book community in the eighties. It's as if a movie director from the fifties was complaining about western movies, or a writer from the XVIIth century was complaining about knighthood romances.
Of course he throws in some ad hominens there, calling superhero fans "emotional defectives". It kinda goes to show how people see the world in a different way. Used to be, a liberal like Clowes was all about live-and-let-live, while a conservative would be the one worried about manchildren being emotionally warped. Now the seats have turned.
>>80923951
Being pleb and proud is worse than being pleb and quiet.
>>80923953
Vertigo was a prestige series that gave some creator's rights back in the day.
>>80923983
Veritgo is under DC though.
>>80920917
Shia LaBeouf's after-the-fact, bullshit justification of his plagiarism of Clowes' work, and the way he doubled down by pretending to be a shock artist, is more dignified, culturally relevant, and entertaining than anything Clowes has ever done.
>>80920631
I didn't know who this fuck is until I looked him up.
Now I realize its the guy who's books I skip over while digging through trade paperback boxes at conventions.
>>80923978
Who are you to classify others as plebs? You are acting like a teenager.
>>80924167
Only a teenager would rush to call others he disagrees with teenagers.
>>80920631
So let me see if I got this correct:
Hipster comic writer who only has one moderately well know book bitches about superhero comics while wondering why people don't buy more indie trash like the stuff he writes.
Is this close?
>>80924255
Spot on actually
