Why is this bad without spoiling anything,everyone loves it except for /co/.
>>80351312
It's the most meandering, plodding Joker story since the Killing Joke, without any of the atmosphere to make it palatable. The "twists" are meaningless, the weird quasi-romantic bullshit is annoying, and the ending is probably the most lackluster of any Batman story ever published since War Games.
>>80352108
The killing Joke isn't plodding, I think each moment of it is well spent, no filler,it's my favorite Batman comic too.
>>80351312
Because everyone is a casual who things edgy Joker is amazing.
>>80351312
I don't hate it, but Snyder has a boner for joker he can't seem to calm down.
>>80351312
1. People are sick of the Joker
2. Nothing really happened, it was just Joker acting super crrrrrazy
3. /co/ in general doesn't like Batman so it tends to be overly critical. The opposite is true on sites like Reddit, where criticism is discouraged
4. Snyder's Bruce is just shit in general, in my personal opinion
5. Lackluster ending, which is typical for Snyder
>>80353095
Hmmm, I like Snyder's Bruce and how he tries to improve Gotham in other ways than just kicking criminals so hard in the head that his boot print replaces the memory of their mothers face. I dont think that /co/ hates Batman
>>80351312
/co/ hates Snyder because not muh Morrison when in fact Morrison didn't even write that great of a Joker. My advice, read it and judge it for yourself. Just don't read any tie ins and you're good famino.
>>80352400
It's so fucking overrated. It's well written but I felt art was so much better than story and it's the weakest Alan Moore's work at DC.
>>80351312
>everyone loves it except for /co/.
That's not even true.
>>80353508
This is assuming you're talking about DotF specifically and not Snyder's run as a whole
>>80351312
Because /co/ hates Snyder. It's a good story.
>>80351312
/co/ can't get pass fact that the Joker cut off his own face for pointless gore and dislike that he wasn't funny
>>80351312
>like every "big comic event"
>issue after issue of build into inevitable anti-climatic resolution that goes nowhere
>add edge for flavor
Shit.
>>80353474 Elaborate on how it is overrated, every page of that book is well spent and is my favorite comic book *subjective*
>>80351312
I'm talking about DotF specifically, Most people (including me) like Court/City of Owls,Black Mirror and Zero Year, I'm just talking about how a lot of anons hate DotF
>>80351312
I enjoyed it as it came out, and I still look back on it fondly. It has a bad ending, but not even the worst possible ending, which /co/ gets hung up on.
I like the idea of different iterations of the Joker, and this is a pretty good story about Horror/Thriller Joker that reminds me of Hannibal Lecter. It also has some really great art, and the B&R and Red Hood tie ins were pretty good
>>80353715
I'm really not trying to be an asshole, but I'm curious, how long have you been reading comics? I love Killing Joke, it's great Batman and a great comic, but I can't imagine it being anyone's favorite use of the medium ever.
>>80353772
Despite>>80353474 being correct in that it ultimately failed,The Killing Joke at least attempted to examine the relationship between Batman and the Joker in a meaningful way. It focused too much on masquerading as "adult" by being needlessly dark and macho, but it still had a modicum of a point: what does the Joker mean to Batman, and vice versa?
DotF, on the other hand, was a story all about how gay the Joker is for Batman. It's similar to TKJ in how poor the substance:gravitas ratio is--the court jester metaphor, while unoriginal, is akin to the titular "joke" ins serving as a bit of food for thought, but the rest is mostly gore and whining--but it's ultimate point is really just stupid.
As to why everyone likes it: the majority of comic fans don't give a shit about analysis like this. Give them some flashy dialogue, "realism," and a story that takes itself seriously, and it's high art as far as they're concerned.
>>80353940 I have been reading marvel/DC comics since I was 11 (currently 23), this was the first comic I loved and its what got me into the medium.
>>80354088
The reason TKJ was dark is because the new Batman movie was coming out and they needed to make the Joker the definitive batman villain so they released ADITF and TKJ to make the Joker seem more serious and insane
>>80354173
It doesn't make the story any less self-indulgent.
>>80354109
What other stories have come close, and what do you look for in a great comic? What did TKJ do well that you look for in other things you read?
>>80354208I'm not sure how doing something that someone wants is bad but opinions.
>>80354173
God I never thought of it that way. It's incredible that inside a year The Joker crippled Batgirl and murdered Robin. Literally nobody would have blamed Batman for killing the fucker at that point.
>>80354324
>I'm not sure how doing something that someone wants is bad
>literally embracing the "comics should be editorialized, assembly line products" mentality
I hope you aren't one of those people bitching about how the Big Two are just shadows of their former selves nowadays.
>>80354270The Dark Knight Returns/Black Mirror/Under the Red Hood/Watchmen/V for Vendetta/Snyder's new 52 batman 1/2/
4/5 /Y the last Man/Swamp Thing etc
>What did TKJ do well
Every moment in that comic was well spent,showed the relationship between Batman/Joker well and art was some of the best ever
>What do I find in comic books
I cant answer that whole heartedly
But I'm sick of people calling me a pleb because I like mainstream comics
I was annoyed with the damn fake outs
>Alfred is blinded by bleach
>Nope hes fine now
>Faces torn off at dinner
>Haha good one huh?
>I know who you are
>Nah I really dont, never could bring myself to find out
>FAST FORWARD TO ENDGAME
>Psyche! I did know!
>>80351312
1. Sick of Joker
2.Tries to make it BIG and GRAND and OMG NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME AND OMG THEY ALL HATE BRUCE NOW
3. Ends on a wet fart which makes the #2 look especially dumb
4. Snyder's Joker is just cra-ray-zayyyy!!! and gay.
5. Snyder's Bruce is particularly dumb and infuriating. Pic related. And Bruce being dumb is one reason why the whole "they all but Dick totally hate Bruce now" is so fucking stupid. Them all breaking up and getting mad as been done before to death, but this time it wasn't even good in the way it's set up.
6. The faceless Joker thing is dumb still.
>>80353715
Because the focyse of the book was in wrong direction as far as Alan was concerned at the time and we as readers absorbed it. It's remembered for it's flashy less substantial bits of lel Joker's irigin, lel Barbara and Jim raped, lel so dark and grim fueled by the fan theories if how it has much more meaning, how it's so dense when in the end it's just a fucking Batman/Joker stiry that is written with dialogues, tones and themes that makes it feel more transcendent and subversive than any other same 200 stories. Best part about it was how author saw the relationship of joker and put it to great words that are really interesting. Barbara and Jim are plot devices and Joker's origin is only there ti 1) provide more substance for the book, 2) make book feel really important and give it more credence while none of it are actually substantial or of any use to the story at all, Jim and Barbara thung is just being edgy for the sake of being edgy which Alan himself said was the case and Joker origin doesn't add anything new to the table and is utterly unneeded. The interesting parts are overlooked for these parts alone and the ones that do look at those part take it for granted as the definitive while in fact it is in the end just just author's point of views on how he thinks about that relationship. It really destroyed any potential Joker/Batman stories for decades. I mean to this day that book is haunting every author trying to write a good joker/Batman story.
One technical level of writing Alan himself is capable of greater things than the ones he provided in TKJ. It's not really a very dense material, he just wrote it because if an obligation to DC. The meta narrative is so simple, it's "Hi I am great author Alan Moore and this is what I think about a crazy guy and a vigilante and this is how I picture them having a conversation and this is how I picture them sharing a laugh." He has done way better work for DC yet his legacy to xape fans is TKJ. Just no.
>>80353715
Me continuing from >>80354929, if you really think that is the best comic you think ever written or whatever, you need to read more comics, if you think this is the best Batman book ever written, you need to read more cimics and if you think this is your favorite comic, you need to read more fucking comics.
>>80354929
>He has done way better work for DC yet his legacy to cape fans is TKJ. Just no.
No, that would be Watchmen, which isn't much better depending on how you look at it. But otherwise you're completely correct.
>>80355146
>No, that would be Watchmen
Please don't devalue that anon's informative (if messy) post by trying to talk shit about one of the most consummate comic books ever created.
>>80355146
You think capeshit plebs actually like or remember him for Watchmen? Because all the normies I have talked to remember him for writing that "definitive Joker" story, they just know he wrote Watchmean too.
>>80355257
I'm not talking shit, just saying that book has it's own problems with how it's remembered within the industry.
>>80355266
Ah, true. I forgot we were talking about general public reactions for a second.
>>80355375
>with how it's remembered within the industry.
Maybe; certainly not to the warped degree like The Killing Joke is. But even if it was, its importance in craft highly outweighs any problems it had in influence. It deserves the majority of its praise.
Do you guys prefer murderous but goofy Joker or full edgy Joker?
Which series/run strikes the best middle ground between the two?
>>80355638
Stupid question anon, /co/ just prefers everything Morrison even though his Joker is super meh and supersane theory is superficial.
>>80355638
You posted it
>>80355704
Go to bed Snyder. Maybe King will fix your fuckups if he's really the new Batwriter.
why does everything have to be suuuper edgy now?
>>80355819
Guess I forgot to add I am a Morrisonfag but instead you didn't really counter any of points (not that I expected a discussion) and gave the most /co/ response ever.
>>80355819
Not that guy, but /co/ does fellate Morrison far too much
