>Alright hold up for one second, we may have a differing view of how to treat superhumans but take into consideration that you are literally attempting to assassinate me and not doing your ideology very many favors; before the camera starts shaking again do you mind explaining why Steve is on your side in light of the fact that you are trying to murder people who disagree
Because Stark wants Bucky arrested for actions he had no control over due to mind control
>>79671336
My only gripe is he is actually gripping the slide of the gun.
>>79671379
This particular scenario seems pretty arrest worthy
>>79671379
This scene doesn't really make him out to be mind controlled.
Maybe Bucky was going to shoot someone else and Tony stopped him.
>>79671416
On what charges? Hulk did more damage and present a greater threat than Bucky ever was.
>>79671379
I think it may have something to do with him killing his parents, too.
>>79671548
Crime is not some relative game where you cannot arrest someone until you have arrested everyone who is worse than that person
>>79671548
But no one died from hulk.
>>79671676
This is so fucking stupid. Who wrote this?
>>79671645
Right, because some people are more equal than others.
>>79671676
Thundercunt thought otherwise.
>>79671548
The charge on him attempting to kill Iron Man for trying to get him arrested
>>79671676
Pound for pound one of the worst spreads in comic history
>>79671336
maybe you can explain why you of all people are siding with government controlling of superheroes. literally the opposite of your entire character arc so far
>>79671781
That was a misunderstanding. He clearly was trying to stop an invisible assassin behind Tony.
>>79671336
Apparently Marvel is setting up Zemo to be their MCU Doctor Doom.
>>79671772
>You can't arrest a man who killed one person unless you arrest another man who killed ten people first
What specific variety of retard are you
>>79671860
Without the mask?
Pfft sure thing.
So OP, what you are saying is Tony gets to shoot lasers at them but Bucky is the wrong because he uses bullets?
>>79671860
yeah or he's just the batroc of civil war
Sebastian-kun already said this Bucky is a mix of BroBucky and HydraBucky, the stupid manlet brought a StarkWatch™ to a fight so Buck tried to pop his ass like the trained Hydra killer he was.
>HE'S JUST CONFUSED!
>STOP IT TONY HE'S MY FRIEND
Steve is already dead when this scene happens.
So you're telling me this nigger stopped a bullet with his fingerless metal gloves without any kind of damage to the fingers or the other unprotected hand standing on the slider?
>>79671875
>Arrest that man, he knew killed eleven people.
>That green uncontrollable monster? Nope, he's above reproach because Hulk strongest there is.
Yes, let's encourage this.
>>79672375
>You will never motorboat those titties
>>79672375
>>79672464
I love how the Japs are obsessed with his boobs.
>>79672448
Reactive armor OP. He'd have minor gunpowder burns but the armor released a jet of super-compressed air which cooled as it expanded, nullifying the heat.
This should be final proof that RDJ being shoehorned into this movie and demanding more screentime means he's going to be made to look like the good guy who's just trying to do the right thing. Marvel sold out Cap.
You fucking manlet he was going to shoot your leg so maybe you could shut the fuck up.
You took the gun into your hand to catch the bullet.
BUCKY DID NOTHING WRONG
>>79672694
>calling Tony a manlet
I hope you're ready to get sued.
>>79671676
>You haven't killed anyone.
>I mean, sure, you beat the flying fuck out of them in a blood rage, but you didn't kill any of 'em.
>>79672456
The Hulk isn't the one shooting at Tony right that second, anon.
Your argument is that Tony's thoughts should be "You know, this guy is trying to shoot at me and that's kinda uncool...but I probably shouldn't try to stop him because I could have stopped the Hulk at this point."
>>79672489
It's funny because the only one with bigger tits than him was his love interest.
Bucky is shooting Tony
Not trying to kill him
Tony is the retard rising Buck's gun to his face.
>>79671407
This, nigga is going to get his hand cut up
So the plot of Civil War is basically 'dont kill my friend who murdered all these people!!!'
does nobody else see how fucking weak and terrible that is? Even when you dont compare it to the original book
>>79673298
Yeah, I don't like it. The way this is presented it's making Cap and Bucky look like the bad guys.
>>79673390
Seriously though in what way arent they? I get that the government is also pushing to basically "own" the Superheroes but at this point AntMan is the only one who isnt already part of the government?
The whole thing is steve being unable to accept the fact that his friend has become a mass murderer.
>>79673521
Well, Bucky was brainwashed, so there's that. He probably feels like Bucky should be exonerated since Pierce and Hydra were brought down, so he won't be assassinating people anymore. It still feels stupid that they shoehorned a Civil War storyline into this when this would have been much better if it was just a Cap movie with maybe a minor roll by Stark.
>>79671837
Damn, and Tony protected the assassin?
It all makes sense now
>>79671379
Drunk driver argument. It doesn't matter if he had no control, he is still responsible.
"A drunk chooses tp drink, He didn't choose to become the winter soldier"
And he can have a parole for good behavior if he shows remorse.
>>79673521
>I get that the government is also pushing to basically "own" the Superheroes but at this point AntMan is the only one who isnt already part of the government?
The Avengers are currently independent of any government. They're like MSF and their operations are very illegal.
>>79673696
Yeah he looked real brainwash while he tried to shoot tony in the face in the new tv spot
But even with him being brainwashed it doesn't excuse his actions?? Like at all. Steve is legitimately the bad guy in this.
>>79673892
>Yeah he looked real brainwash while he tried to shoot tony in the face in the new tv spot
Yeah that shit was dumb. He's literally trying to shoot an unarmed Stark at point blank. Tony might be a dick, but Bucky and Steve just look like bad guys here. This is what I was afraid of when I heard RDJ was going to be in this, then it was revealed to be Civil War, then it was rumored that he was demanding more screen time. Marvel knows where their bread is buttered and they don't want audiences thinking their poster boy is evil, so they're making him into the reluctant antagonist people don't hate him after this movie is done. They don't give a shit about Cap.
>>79672054
Maybe this is his start.
We have to pray to the Russos that no other villain than Crossbones dies.
>>79673865
Oh, really? I thought by the end of AoU they were back with ~new~ SHIELD.
>>79674019
Maybe this movie will finally kill the MCU
>we'll finally be free of this nonesense
>>79672464
>tfw you will never look this good picking up take out
Why even live?
>>79674019
>Implying this movie is going to be biased as the comic
>>79673892
I'm going to be pretty pissed if everyone just magnets to Cap like this annoying retard does
If they're going to make Tony be sympathetic at least have characters in universe be sympathetic to him as well, otherwise it just seems like a story with 1 sane person and an entire world of morons
>Tony might be the poster child of "ITT: 'villains who did nothing wrong'"
>>79671676
No way such a seemingly remarkable coincidence would go unnoticed for long.
>>79674233
*gradually magnets
>>79674233
Falcon was cool his first appearance now he just comes across as a dick.
>>79671860
>Their Doctor Doom
So they're going to ruin both Zemo and Doom by giving us a weak amalgam of both?
>>79673696
>He probably feels like Bucky should be exonerated since Pierce and Hydra were brought down, so he won't be assassinating people anymore.
That's not Caps call to make. He has no idea the extent of Bucky brainwashing. It may only take some sort of trigger before he's slaughtering politicians all over the place
>>79674631
Wasnt he also the one who shot JFK?
>>79671416
I don't see Hawkeye in cuffs after he nearly took down the Helicarrier
>>79674799
They all saw Hawkeye be mind controlled. All they have is Buckys word that he's reformed. And considering he's an agent of Hydra, an organization that is known for being sneaky cunts it's idiocy to trust him
>>79674233
Just pulling this out my ass
But I have a feeling Wanda is joining Caps side because she's following Clint like a lost puppy
>>79674799
Hawkeye isn't the one pointing a gun to Tony's face after his reformation
>>79675016
Yeahh, after leaving Hydra she honestly has nowhere else to go, so it makes sense she clings to the guy that helped her and her brother the most.
Same is probably for Antman. Clinging to the only guy he's met before.
>>79675061
Because they didn't send two dozen cops to arrest him
>>79675106
So if he had two dozen cops sent to arrest him, he would be justified in murdering Iron Man?
>>79675106
"oh no they're sending people to arrest me for murdering people, i better murder somebody else to prove how much of a not murderer I am"
>>79675133
>>79675139
Yeah. They send in that many armed to the teeth guys in a no knock raid for your ass
Yeah. They just wanna hug it out ya?
Just like Stane, Whiplash, and Killian?
I have to applaud them for actually making Tony's side sympathetic, well done. Cap just seems completely in the wrong so far.
>>79675075
Antman probably shares Pym's opinion that super powered shit is too dangerous in the hands of most people, and especially there government.
>>79675016
shes the speedball that starts this
>>79675177
All these guys here?
They're for YOUR protection buddy ;)
>>79675187
Yeah it's much safer to let these people do whatever the fuck they want
The problem always with Civil War type stories is that in the Marvel Universe
Tony Stark's side of we should regulate this stuff is actually the correct point of view, so to justify him being in the wrong the thing to spark the incident has to be so egregious that it puts people against him.
>>79675177
You're right, I completely forgot about the classic "kill anyone who inconveniences you" thing
Good thing Steve's there to help him out
>>79674068
They were funded by it I believe, but SHIELD doesn't answer to the government either. That's the whole reason they had the military on their ass for so long in season 1/2
>>79675312
Yeah. Being hunted is being "inconvenienced"
>>79675185
I bet you think guns should be illegal too
>>79675370
Now that was a big leap in logic
>>79675342
>being taken in for due process = "and here we see the Iron Dictator in its natural habitat, out for Sebastian Stan's blood"
>>79675389
What did you think the registration act was an analogy for in the comics? It's gun control!
>>79675370
Anybody can own a gun. Not everybody can turn into an unstoppable rage monster that can wipe out a city
>>79675294
Not saying he's right, just saying it's probably why Scott (and Hank) are siding with Cap.
>>79675421
Why do you think the comic is renowned for being garbage? It's a horrible analogy
>>79675415
He isn't being taken in for due process, they want him dead. The system of due process has proven to be corrupt in the first place
>>79675430
>have to register for existing
Hmm, I think this happened before and it didn't end up well for those who had to register
>>79675475
>He isn't being taken in for due process, they want him dead
Source it
>The system of due process has proven to be corrupt in the first place
It'd really be corrupt if it justified the murder of Tony Stark for attempting to detain Stan
>>79675501
>muh jews
Banner experimented on himself and a lot of people died because of his cowardice
>>79675523
Never mind on the first part, just remembered the old trailer
>>79675475
but why would they want him dead?
That doesnt make sense! All he ever did was murder dozens of people!
He deserves to be let free for that! Its just corrupt for them to not.
>>79675301
The people who would come to be in charge of regulating these people would be no less likely to abuse their power
>>79675558
Are you really saying the holocaust was no big deal?
>>79675501
Hey, I got a birth certificate and I'm doing just fine.just kidding, I know what you mean.
God damn these fucking drones
>>79675567
No, they rightfully would want a man like Bucky dead, but Steve is also right in laying down his life to fight for the soul of his best friend. Most people in this day and age don't really understand the bonds of brotherhood though
>>79675647
I have a feeling that Cap and Tony had a conversation where Tony probably said something along the lines of "We'll make an example out of Bucky" and Cap was like "Yeah, nah nigga"
>>79675501
I never got why people always thought registering was less like having a census and more like the first step before putting people in camps. Magneto thought that way because he was crazy with paranoia thanks to his childhood and trying to rationalize his war on humans, not because he was a well-balanced individual. If he didn't keep trying to genocide regular people every other week things like the sentinel program and random mutant incarceration would have never gained the public support in the first place.
>>79675586
Are you really comparing the Holocaust to Banner? You're the one who trivialized it in the first place.
>>79675724
>"Is it me? Is my BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS that is wrong? No, no it's the humans.
>>79675735
I'm comparing the holocaust to registering a people for existing
Are you actually trying to see what I'm saying or just translating it to your convenience.
>the movie isn't asking the audience to determine which side is right, but which side is less wrong
Classic Civil War
>>79675702
They've already said that they've given the kill order on Bucky from the beginning. He's an extremely dangerous and unstable weapon of Hydra that they want eliminated. Nobody but Steve has a reason to fight for him, but that's what makes Steve a great character. He will put himself at odds against the entire world to do what he knows is right, like saving his brother from execution. They're with each other til the end of the line
>>79675501
The difference is, despite what Hitler said, Jews didn't actually have the power to destroy all of Germany any time they wanted. Also if you're arguing that governments only want people to register so that they can hunt you down, how do you feel about Driver's Licenses and the census?
>>79675770
I read that in Principal Skinner's voice, thanks for the chuckle.
>>79675817
>Jews didn't actually have the power to destroy all of Germany any time they wanted.
You do know he disarmed them right?
>>79675817
You need a driver's license for the privilege to drive. Not to exist
And you can bullshit the census all you want. They won't arrest you for not doing it.
>>79675724
Because it would give the authority over the operations of super humans to the hands of institutions that have proven to be corrupt and would undoubtedly abuse their power.
>>79675813
>that's what makes Steve a great character. He will put himself at odds against the entire world to do what he knows is right
>blind idealism
Someone post the Red Skull "you move" edit
>>79674482
I think his problem is that he's barely even a character at this point - He's basically just an extension of Cap that does whatever Cap wants and doesn't really have motivations, opinions, or personality of his own.
>>79675813
>He will put himself at odds against the entire world to do what he knows is right
Unless you're arguing that he's infallible, this actually sounds like a pretty big flaw.
>>79675813
>He will put himself at odds against the entire world to do what he *thinks* is right
>>79675980
Obviously. Did you really need that spelled out to you?
Every functioning adult knows that right and wrong is subjective.
>>79675920
It's not blind idealism to fight for the life of your brother who's been with you through the death of both of your parents, who you fought a war side by side with. Red Skull could absolutely use the same speech, and he simply would be met by Captain America as his opposing force, and they would determine who is right through their conflict. People like you have no ideals and would sacrifice anything you believe in and any person you love with pressure from the collective.
>>79676025
Not really, moral objectivism is a real thing
>>79675954
He's a loyal sidekick anon. It's the point of the character. People seriously barely understand what these characters are meant to be anymore and it's ridiculous. Where do you get your skewed perspectives on things?
>>79676077
>It's not blind idealism to fight for the life of your brother who's been with you through the death of both of your parents, who you fought a war side by side with
That's not what I was referring to
>Red Skull could absolutely use the same speech, and he simply would be met by Captain America as his opposing force, and they would determine who is right through their conflict.
Except Red Skull is very clearly wrong and Cap is almost always right in every scenario they meet, that doesn't mean that their psychologies aren't completely braindead
>People like you have no ideals and would sacrifice anything you believe in and any person you love with pressure from the collective.
There is literally zero, not even one true thing that you've said with this sentence
>>79676115
Good sidekicks have character of their own and aren't just a sidearm.
>>79675775
But none of these people were born like this. They all took it upon themselves to be Superhuman. You would have a point if were talking about mutants, and I would agree with you, but we're talking about people who choose this life
>>79676077
>Red Skull could absolutely use the same speech, and he simply would be met by Captain America as his opposing force, and they would determine who is right through their conflict.
I didn't know that you browsed /co/, Senator.
>>79675958
I don't see it as a flaw to lay down your life for your loved ones and for what you believe in. People like you would surrender anything so a quiet, mundane status quo could be maintained. People often just get mad seeing humble and virtuous men like Steve Rogers and Superman, growing to resent them and developing a desire to tear down these symbols of honor
>>79676092
I'm sure the anon meant that discerning the objective truth is subjective to each individual and fraught with difficulties.
>>79675501
>have to register for existing
But that's not what's happening at all.
It's about the Avengers not being allowed to fight as a private army and ignore all international law. They just can't go around shooting up people around the world anymore.
>>79676138
It's not a brain dead psychology at all, you've just been trained to rebel against true virtue and authority. You can't reach the ideal Steve Rogers can, so it must be a lie, it must be stupid and wrong. And eventually, it must be destroyed. You probably don't even believe good and evil actually exist.
>>79676153
yeah but truly good sidekicks are a diamond dozen
>>79675876
As opposed to the completely unelected and unsupervised authority of individuals with superpowers enforcing their own ideas of justice?
>>79676254
Yes, they must only be allowed to do it as pawns of one of the governments already proven to be corrupt and do the exact same shit time and time again. But somehow instead of just Captain America leading this team, it would be better to have it in the hands of the fucking bureaucracy of politicians that are already bleeding the world dry. You're fighting on the side of the soccer moms who want to make the whole world the suburbs right now
>>79676263
What are you even talking about here? Unflinching idealism is never a good thing unless you have a really basic "ideal" that completely adheres to human rights. If your ideal is "help people avoid pain" or just a simple "promote hedonism" then that's fine. If it's "never ever let X die in any circumstance," at some point when you're met with a scenario where carrying out your ideal causes you to be a less morally upstanding person, you're a detriment.
And you seem to think that my suggesting that adhering to an ideal like Cap's ultraboner for Bucky equates to me saying all ideals are bad, which I haven't stated once. I'm just saying that blind idealism is a dumb way of looking at the world.
>>79676025
Sorry, but not every "functioning adult" was raised on the "feel-good, no-accountability" hippie bullshit that you kids these days are raised to never grow up on.
>>79676335
*for Bucky is stupid equates to...
>>79676263
So what you're saying is that Steve Rogers could never do anything wrong, and that him imposing his will upon others (what you refer to as authority) with 0 checks or accountability could never have any negative consequences?
You're not arguing that Cap is a good man, you're arguing that he isn't human.
>>79676281
Absolutely. Elections are mob rule at best, and at worst a shame for the ruling elites who buy figure heads as puppets. The common people of the world are no more virtuous then these elites themselves. They have no conception of morality or justice. This authority needs to be in the hands of a select group of unique individuals that have proven themselves worthy of it like Captain America has. I'd rather have dozens of unchecked superheroes in the world than a cabal of government agents working at the behest of corrupt politicians. All you're fighting for is total assimilation to the collective.
>>79676316
No one should have absolute authority, including the Avengers. They are not infallible - An entire country was destroyed and the world almost ended because one of them made a bad call.
Your perspective is skewed because you're looking at this from the perspective of the audience, who has been following Cap as the main character and identifying with him. In-universe, giving him a free pass to do anything he chooses with no legal intervention is fucking insane, and more important sets a disastrous precedent.
>>79676335
It's only you that's understanding ideals as vague generalities. I'm suggesting that men with true authority shouldn't submit their power to the hands of lesser men who would abuse it. You take blind submission to the government and "the people" as a virtue, but it isn't. It's Slave morality.
>>79676412
So fascism.
![tumblr_o27a57NqAC1tctq75o3_500[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/6MSces2.gif "tumblr_o27a57NqAC1tctq75o3_500[1].gif")
I'll be really interested to see the true context of this scene. Has Bucky been recalibrated or given a trigger phrase? Is he in his right mind but there's a fatal misunderstanding? He might even think Tony is HYDRA, given the history of Stark Tech and Obadiah Stane's control.
What we know: Tony has been involved in some very shady shit and brings a lot of trouble on himself and the entire world. He's been *told* to answer for it, but never has because he's rich and powerful. It weighs on his mind, though, because he does want to be a good guy and is stumbling toward the path of the hero with good intentions. He's not malicious.
We also know: Bucky was a good guy who spent years fighting HYDRA with Cap as both a close friend and fellow soldier. He was captured and tortured by the very group he was trying to destroy (more than once!) and forced to serve them. Imprisoned, dehumanized, experimented on, drugged, and had his brain fried on the regular -- extra when he expressed any independent thought -- for 70 years. When you think about it, it's some of the darkest shit by far in the MCU. And we still see him resisting HYDRA conditioning multiple times, and they're probably hunting him now that he's gone AWOL. He has every reason to be paranoid and PTSD as fuck.
No way do either of these guys want to casually murder people. Either one of them is not in their right mind, or things are not what they seem. I'm guessing the latter -- they're not bad guys, they're guys with high stakes and bad intel.
>>79676363
I'm saying Steve Rogers is an exceptional man that stands above the masses, yes.
>>79676476
Rand/Ditko/Bryke/Bird pls
>>79676412
Who grants this authority to the superheros? Who determines who is and isn't virtuous? In your system, you're basically just arguing that the strongest rule over all the untermensch.
Congratulations you've just justified Supes' character in Red Son.
>>79676476
>I'm suggesting that men with true authority shouldn't submit their power to the hands of lesser men who would abuse it
I want Nietzsche to leave
>>79676484
In essence, it would be an ordered cosmos under the rule of a pantheon like the Olympian Order, yes. It's much preferable to your collectivist bureaucracy of slaves
>>79676263
>you've just been trained to rebel against true virtue and authority. You can't reach the ideal Steve Rogers can, so it must be a lie, it must be stupid and wrong
Sounds like something Hitler would say at a fucking rally. Just replace Steve Rodgers with "The Aryan"
>>79676460
Captain America opposed Ultron from the beginning and was the one to end it. If Tony wanted to quit the Avengers, take all of his resources and funding and fold himself into the military with War Machine, he has every right to do so. But he crosses the line when he tries to impose this decision upon the others. Steve did nothing wrong and has no reason to conform the way Tony has. The panicking mobs of the people and the corrupt politicians should be disregarded
>>79676505
Their nature determines their authority, and they will live out their greatness if they are born with the capacity to do so. Steve was chosen for a reason
>>79676412
So what is it about these select individuals that exempts them from public authorization and scrutiny, then? What makes them more capable of evaluating morality and justice than the will of the collective?
Imagine if Captain America started bombing abortion clinics because he thought it was systemic murder on par with the Holocaust. Imagine any of them having some extreme political opinion, and the power and "moral backbone" to act upon it.
It's all fine and good when the unassailable cabal of superhumans fights for what you believe, but the problem is they're not going to. They fight for what THEY believe. I'm not that much of a fascist hero worshiper to abide by that.
>>79676476
>It's only you that's understanding ideals as vague generalities.
My entire point is that when they go above that, they can get scary (and even when they don't sometimes).
>I'm suggesting that men with true authority shouldn't submit their power to the hands of lesser men who would abuse it. You take blind submission to the government and "the people" as a virtue, but it isn't. It's Slave morality.
Absolutely nothing I've said even remotely suggests that I take "the people" or "the government" above all in judging a scenario (though as a utilitarian I guess "the people" would describe my views in a different context). I'm stating that the "no u move :(((" psychology that Steve has is moronic and is a dangerous ideal to have. The only reason people are fooled into thinking it's sane is because Cap is written by people who want to make him the protagonist of the story. Applying blind idealism to moral judgements instead of evaluating the particular context of a scenario with additional viewpoints and a digestible thought process is what you're seriously, seriously advocating here. Take a step back and realize that your fictional hero has the same thought process as his villain.
>>79672865
Hayley Atwell is a literal perfect human being.
>>79676648
What the hell lmao this sounds likeit was written by a henchman for a supervillain
>>79676648
Your argument has literally boiled down to "God's Will shall determine who is truly just, and grant them the strength to rule others."
I take back what I said. You haven't justified Superman in Red Son, you've justified colonialism and slavery.
>>79676573
It's something a warrior aristocrat would say, and before the era of the French Revolution would have been a thought held with no apprehension
>>79676533
I'm sorry to break it to you, but Nietzschean ideals are what superheroes are built upon.
>>79676662
What gives the public this authority you speak of or gives them the right to scrutinize those who are greater than them and have saved them countless times? What makes you think the public has any true conception of morality to begin with when all of the human experience would tell you otherwise? The public has no authority other than violent mob rule
>>79676744
>I'm sorry to break it to you, but Nietzschean ideals are what superheroes are built upon.
No, not necessarily
And you'd better not be attempting to slap the Ubermensche = Superman argument here, because the allegory has superficial-at-best connotations for Supes
>>79676721
My argument is how all conflicts in human history have been determined. We can proselytize our ideals and virtues all we want, but in the end who is right will be determined by who emerges when these opposing views clash against one another
>>79676793
>What gives the public this authority you speak of or gives them the right to scrutinize those who are greater than them and have saved them countless times
Holy hell man, the entire point is NOTHING, and it's literally, LITERALLY a fallacy to say the people or Steve inherently have the power of judgement due to "authority"
You should not be looking to an authority alone for judgement (though it may have rational points which could guide a judgement- but that's independent of its authoritative status). You should be evaluating a situation with all the data you can find
>>79676077
>It's not blind idealism to fight for the life of your brother who's been with you through the death of both of your parents, who you fought a war side by side with.
It is if that brother is responsible for the deaths of innocents.
>everyone's going to act retarded for this movie
>won't get explained away as NANOMACHINES SON.
>>79676486
That scene with Bucky surprised me since Marvel usually has shit cinematography but this one shot actually looked pretty alright.
>>79676667
All you're suggesting is submission to the government, in the very specific context of this scenerio. You're suggesting Steve surrender his ideals and his brother because the bureaucracy demanded it. You can try to convince yourself that you're simply considering all points of view and trying to compromise, but all you're actually doing is considering surrender. There is nothing that you hold sacred that you wouldn't offer up as sacrifice to your enemies
Wait, shit, what happened to spider man?
>>79676845
So since the Native Americans were all but wiped out and many of their cultures erased, does that mean that they were the bad guys and the US was morally justified?
>>79676793
>What gives the public this authority
The public is the entity that is being saved/protected/served. Superheroism is a service, much like any other, which means that the party being serviced has final say about how the service is carried out. After all, without a public to protect, the superhero has nothing.
>>79676916
yes
that's what you get for standing in the way of Manifest Destiny, son
>>79676911
>All you're suggesting is submission to the government, in the very specific context of this scenerio
What scenario? The specific context, the thing that I'm arguing about with you is whether or not blind idealism is a retarded psychology to have.
>the rest of your post
No, my argument is my argument and not whatever you want me to say my man
>>79676813
The concept of unique individuals with a nature greater than of those all around them taking the authority of virtue and justice upon themselves is though
>>79676914
I think they don't want to publicize him too much when his is just a small supporting role, possibly just a glorified cameo, otherwise people would get all hype and get dissapointed, and claim false advertising.
>>79676870
He was subjected to mind erasing psyops experiments and used as a living drone. He's fighting to get his soul back. Steve sees that as a fight worthy of laying down his life for
>>79676914
he made another deal with the devil and removed his part in the movie
>>79676970
>the concept of a hero is though
It's literally as superficial as that
A person with superpowers that saves people. That doesn't mean all heroes are Nietzchean. The main man Supes couldn't be further from the Ubermensche- he's a guy who trusts humanity to evolve on its own path but just wants to placate threats which endanger the species' existence. Completely conflicting with the hypothetical Super man that exists to bring in a new standard for humans
>>79676865
That's a meaningless statement. It's just a cowards cop out answer for a man who believes in nothing. What data would you like collected on Bucky to determine his fate?
>>79676999
And I'm sure that the families of all the people Bucky has murdered would be touched to hear such an inspiring tale.
>>79676930
That's a sense of narcissistic entitlement on the side of the people. It's slave morality, wishing to see great men dragged into their collective. They are being saved, but they are still ignorant followers who have no real authority and no conception of virtue or justice. Steve has proven himself virtuous and worthy of his authority, the masses have proven the opposite.
>>79677040
who is his 2d waifu
>>79676916
They are a conquered people yes. The fact that they were destroyed and scattered doesn't make them virtuous. That's just your conception of slave morality telling you that what is weak and helpless is good, and what is strong and authoritarian is evil. You must always align yourself with the perceived victim
>>79677074
Do you always throw yourself at the feet of weeping victims?
>>79671860
You mean he's going to be a calculating supervillain? Wow, how different than 616 Zemo...
>>79677111
what if he likes 3dpd?
>>79677155
off with his head
>>79677040
That's irrelevant to what I'm saying and you're taking the argument from "Caps psychology is bad" to "is Cap in the right here" so good jo-
>>79677130
Damn, it took me a while to realize but I now understand that you're merely pretending to be retarded
>>79677038
He is guiding them by example anon. He still disregards the laws of the masses to pursue the fulfillment of his law of a higher nature
>>79677130
I'm not saying that all Native Americans were good people, I'm saying that there was no moral justification for killing them all. I think if you honestly disagree with that sentiment, you need to take a step back and look at your worldview. Your argument up to now has been "might makes right" in every sense, and therefor would see the expansion into the West along with the extermination of millions of people through genocide and biological warfare as acceptable.
>>79677074
Thus the whole marketing of teamcap or teamironman and such. Don't think it through too much or you'll ask why they don't compromise, bring Bucky into some neutral-ish location like Wakanda until they can be sure he's free of his brainwashing and make some sort of deal so he goes away for some time but has a good chance at being released in the near future and shit.
Course Hydra's probably trying to keep any kind of negotiations from happening too perhaps.
>>79677192
>I'm saying that there was no moral justification for killing them all.
manifest destiny
>>79677165
It's a mark of someone who has nothing to say to label his opponent stupid or "retarded". You're neglecting to see how your belief that this system of regulation even having the slightest chance of working without becoming immediately corrupt and abused is a greater expression of blind idealism than anything I've said. You've failed to explain how registration wouldn't just put the authority of these heroes in more dangerous hands, or at best place arbitrary restrictions on the for the comfort of politicians and soccer moms who demand a false sense of control over the world
>>79676486
Basically this.
It's like the first trailer to Winter Soldier, where Fury shows Cap the Helicarriers and says "We’re going to neutralize a lot of threats before they even happen" to which Cap replies "I thought the punishment usually followed the crime" and "This isn't freedom, this is Fear!"
The way that looked in the trailer, was that SHIELD had made a new fleet of Helicarriers and were going to start being pro-active about stopping terrorists, bad guys and shit. It made Cap look like a he was saying that they should wait for shit to happen before they go after bad guys.
But then it turned out that Project Insight basically involved shooting people from long range based upon a DNA match and SHIELD's best guess as to whether or not they were "bad". And not only that, Fury was not entirely convinced that it was a good idea.
There will be some scenes not seen in the trailer that change a lot of contexts of scenes from the trailer, like maby when the kill order comes through for Bucky, Steve tries to reason with Tony and convince him that he wasn't in control of his actions, like Hawkeye in Avengers 1 or Hulk in Avengers 1 and 2 and that they should bring him in alive, but Tony doesn't care. Maby the scene with Bucky trying to shoot Tony is while Tony's having a metting with Zemo, who Bucky recognizes and tries to shoot, but Tony intervenes
>>79677192
Oh, it also implies that Hitler did nothing wrong
>>79677192
All you can do is look at the world as the way you think it should be and lament the fact that reality does not align with it. You're incapable of taking in the human experience as the tragedy that it is and accepting the suffering that is a part of it inherently.
>>79677276
Because he didn't?
>>79677276
there's been lots of dictators, don't use hitler all the time. vary it up a bit.
>>79676486
What if this is at the end of the film, with Stark helping clear his programming?
>>79677276
Literally name one thing he actually did wrong
>>79677347
Russia
>>79677198
He killed both Tony and T'Challas fathers
>>79677347
wasting v2s on morale targets
>>79677074
I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but Barnes never decided to murder people. He was never allowed to decide anything, and forced into compliance to an extreme degree. Handlers like Pierce are the ones with the intent murder people AND torture Bucky into mindlessly serving as the weapon.
Bucky is also one of Hydra's victims, and to force him to answer for their crimes is not only illogical and unjust, but cruel. Unfortunately only Steve knows the man under the machine.
>>79677366
There's that I guess, well I don't think they've quite confirmed that yet though. Still Stark isn't unfamiliar with brain washing, don't think he blames Banner for Hulk destroying another city and stuff.
>>79671379
He should be arrested. Then he should hire a good lawyer and let the courts sort it out. This whole movie could be avoided if Cap's team weren't dumb shits.
So I noticed Ant-Man has his mask on in all the shots I've seen so far. Will they keep it on the whole time and just do VO to save money?
Same for Hulk and Black Panther?
>>79677406
That's extremely naive of you anon.
>>79677406
Thing is they don't want him arrested. They want him dead. If Bucky put down his arms and went willingly he would last twelve hours before something "happened" to him.
>>79677493
How would that save them money? At this point I Think the actors all want more screentime, RDJ doesn't like doing the in-helmet stuff because it's all recorded afterwards when he's tired as shit and he's just alone with a bucket on his head or something.
Where'd everyone go? I was having fun debating the ideals of virtue and justice in regards to the conflict in this movie.
>>79677578
There's another thread up, maybe more, haven't looked for all of them.
>>79672489
does cap use boku or watashi?
>>79677537
If they keep the mask on the whole time they dont have to pay for likeness, and they could just use CGI and dub afterwards like the TMNT movies do with Johnny Knoxville.
>>79677531
So basically it's Civil War again, where both sides are unspeakably stupid?
>>79671336
Stop making assumptions about a scene that was obviously sloppily edited for trailer purposes, we don't know who he was trying to shoot or why Tony grabs the gun from him and why he pulled the trigger.
But OK I'll start assuming too.
Bucky is dangerous and a threat, the guy is a mess and he just barely shook up the Winter Soldier programming and from what one of the suppose spoiler leaks saidhe's going around murdering HYDRA membersnot to mention he is also getting chased by HYDRA which means that just about anyone doing anything aggressive or doing something like reaching for Bucky's weapon might get seen as a threat to him and for all Bucky knows Tony is out to kill him too.
So far from what I've gathered in the trailers and from EW interviews Steve's main beef with Tony's side is that they are chasing Bucky to either to kill him or take him in and use him for their own purposes, he's obviously not OK with them doing that.
And Steve is on the right to be wary of them, the Winter Soldier killed Tony's parents and shit will be personal to him and I bet he won't have any mercy for Bucky, General Ross has history of experimenting on prisoners and creating Abomination, Zemo (although unknown to everyone) is from fucking HYDRA and hell him alone is enough to justify Steve of being distrustful of Tony's side taking Bucky in, then there's the shady as fuck World Council who along with SHIELD got BTFOed by HYDRA.
The smart thing to do is to appoint Steve and Sam as Bucky's handler and give them certain terms and conditions as to what Bucky can or can't do unsupervised and for Bucky to get some therapy and then Steve would most likely comply with the Sokova Accords, but obviously Tony and his side don't have any desire to help Bucky at all.
>>79676669
You're waifu a dyke.
>>79677634
I don't think they're paid for how much screentime they have, and fuck I would imagine they would want to appear more if possible, most of the actors seem to love being in the MCU and others are trying to get into the DCEU, unless they're just assholes like the dude that was supposed to be War Machine.
>>79677690
so am I
>>79677711
LONDON
O
N
D
O
N
>>79671789
I'm more disturbed by BW siding against WS, considering you know, she's an assassin herself who was pardoned for all intents and purposes.
>>79673864
>And he can have a parole for good behavior if he shows remorse.
The difference is that Bucky is not even going to get the benefit of a trial, especially since there are people on Tony's side who want him either dead or want to use him as their weapon.
Not to mention Baron fucking Zemo already infiltrated Tony's side.
>>79677798
well in her case it's probably 'if you don't help us put this guy on the gallows, you can hang there next to him'
that and her inevitable switching sides can be seen from phobos
>>79673298
To be fair pretty much all of them have either directly or indirectly caused way more deaths than Bucky
Especially Tony.
>>79671676
Didn't they say he killed people in Avengers?
>>79677798
Yeah, Natasha probably did as much shit as Bucky did. You'd think if anyone would have some empathy for a conditioned, manipulated spy-assassin it'd be the one that went through bullshit conditioning herself.
>>79677854
That might be for the point of them trying to be more accountable and such. She wasn't exactly happy about Cap trying to find Bucky to begin with. The heck does Vision even care about Bucky for example.
>>79677854
Maby she's still shitty about the time he shot her
>>79673298
More like "Don't take my friend who was abused, tortured and brainwashed by a terrorist organization into doing their bidding without a proper trial and proper help and with your shitty intentions of also doing the same to him" also do people keep forgetting that Zemo is with the people that Team Tony is working with?
>>79677893
Maybe he's just sticking by Tony?
>>79673892
>But even with him being brainwashed it doesn't excuse his actions?? At all.
Ok, are you asking a question or writing a statement?
>>79677827
It just seems a bit weird that a group of heroes that has been very accepting of redemption sob stories gets divided with Bucky.
I mean literally nobody in the previous movies even implies BW should pay for her crimes.
I understand it's personal more than anything here but it makes them look like huge hypocrites.
>>79674233
Hopefully not, Tony's weapons and Ultron probably killed more people than the Winter Soldier ever did.
>>79676608
>It's just THIS Avenger that we can't trust. We got rid of him, we're totally trustworthy now!
Same argument could be applied to the Hydra members within the government.
>>79677086
It's called cooperation.
Humanity does better when we help each other up and aren't fighting to push each other down like crabs in a bucket.
>>79678084
>like crabs in a bucket.
Is this a real turn of phrase? If not, bravo for coming up with it, made me chuckle.
>>79676486
the only fucking post in this entire thread that is 100% correct
>>79678115
It's an old phrase.
>>79678084
It's a cute ideal, but it fails when it meets the reality of the human experience. You might as well of just handed me a finger painting of people from all nations holding hands encircling the earth. It's the lowest order of thinking for men who have no real belief in anything or true understanding of philosophical ideals.
>what if we all just got along guys?
>>79677111
Bucky doesn't have a waifu.
>>79678217
When we get along we make the ISS, when we don't we make ISIS.
>>79676486
You are the person who makes the most sense in this thread.
>I'll be really interested to see the true context of this scene. Has Bucky been recalibrated or given a trigger phrase?
Wasn't the codename for this film Sputnik? In the comics Winter Soldier's shutdown phrase was Sputnik so it could be that it's his trigger phrase in this movie.
Also in the comics Sharon Carter gets brainwashed by Faustus and shoots Steve after Crossbones snipes him which is what kills Steve (I am ignoring the time bullet BS) so maybe they will do something similar with Zemo and Bucky.
>>79677274
Trailers lie a lot so yeah people making hasty assumptions out of them is kind of dumb but I guess we don't have much info about what exactly will go down in the movie so it's one of the few things people can actually do for discussion.
>>79678223
Does Cap have a waifu?
>>79671548
Id love to have seen a hulk trial and subsequent execution attempt like we got in ultimates, but in the movies they don't really have time for that.
>>79677366
We still don't know if he killed T'challa's dad.
Steve your husbando a shit
>>79678217
You're making a big leap from "perfect harmony will never be achieved" to "FREE FOR ALL EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF".
>>79677074
Except Bucky did it unknowingly, also if Wolverine forgave him about being brainwashed into murdering his Asian waifu in the comics then everyone else can.
Oh yeah and thanks for the shit posting.
>>79678260
Bucky.
>>79677209
>god told me to do it
>literally the same thing muslims say
>>79678056
What the even fuck are you trying to say?
>Bucky is somehow on trial for being a bad guy due to mind re-conditioning
>Black Widow isn't
??????
>>79678279
Would you go against the government and die for your waifu/husbando anon? Didn't think so.
This is why Cap is a better person than all of us.
>>79678279
Go to bed Tony, this won't make Steve return your calls.
>>79678329
Saying we can trust the Avengers because only one of them did the bad thing and is now gone is equivalent to saying we can trust the government because only some of them did a bad thing and are now gone.
>>79678217
What. There's nothing idealistic about basic cooperation, it's how our all damn society works.
And it certainly doesnt mean we can all "get along", you can cooperate with people you despise.
You're way too pretentious for your britches anon. You talk like Eisenberg Luthor.
>>79678339
Honestly if saving Bucky meant being dropped to a desert planet just the two of them and no one else, to live the end of their days, then yes he would accept.
In the comics he even at some point says he is willing to run off with Bucky, fake their deaths, and live as hobos if it meant keeping him safe.
>>79678244
The ISS is worthless and exists to keep the wide eyed, gaped mouthed masses placated. It means nothing. You still have an adolescent fantasy of what the human experience is
>>79675016
That or deep down she just wants another crack at Stark. He's indirectly responsible for the death of her entire family at this point.
>>79678337
Hey now, she's a girl.
>>79678378
This is true friendship.
It's obvious theres going to be someone who triggers Buckys murder mode on Stark, even though he's been good up to that point on. Hell they might have even been fine with Bucky joining up with them up until that moment.
>>79678379
You don't want zero gravity lettuce?
>>79678337
Because RED IN MUH LEDGER.
But really I think she gets a hearing or a trial of some sorts during the end of TWS after she leaks all of SHIELD's info.
That said Bucky would not get the benefit of having a trial.
>>79678300
I'm just suggesting that the existence of several opposing nations and their never ending series of conflicts is an important aspect of the human experience
>>79678258
>Trailers lie a lot so yeah people making hasty assumptions out of them is kind of dumb but I guess we don't have much info about what exactly will go down in the movie so it's one of the few things people can actually do for discussion.
It's kind of inevitable for a movie like this with a lot of buzz, speculating about it more won't make it come quicker. The only alternative is just to not pay attention to trailers and publicity and only discuss the movie after it comes out and you've seen it.
>>79678365
It's how a small number of very basic operations work anon. Outside of that, it is the will of a select few that is the driving force behind society
>>79678337
Presumably that all happened before she joined SHIELD.
>>79678425
Those nations themselves are shining examples of cooperation between individuals and groups that put their conflicts aside to work together.
