Has anything in the New 52 actually contributed to the mythology of the characters rather than shitting all over them?
New 52 seems like a weird Elseworlds series
>>78383073
Superman got a nice T-shirt.
>>78383073
No, in fact I'll say that it failed in it's attempt to create a clean slate for more readers to be able to pick up the books. Now less readers are reading then before the reboot. Marvel has dominated DC in sales and really I hope DC goes out of business and that Dan Dideo and Bob Harris are held responsible, and their names are dragged through the mud when the history of comics is retold.
Big mistake. Save for Morrison, I jumped ship. All the history, shared continuity, relationships, gone. All for some half assed modern retread. No thanks.
>the reboot happened four years ago and some people still aren't over it
>>78383126
Why is it only Morrison is able to handle DC mythology and homage well? Johns too, but he likes to alter shit to suit his tastes waaay too much.
>>78383073
It had a shaky start, but at this point DC has more than recovered, so in the end it doesn't bother me at all that it happened.
>>78383142
The thread isn't about how the reboot was bad. There were a lot of good shit in it. There still are.
We're just talking if the reboot added anything worthwhile to the mythology. Can you think of something cool that was added to the canon thanks to it?
>>78383126
Morrison is always gold.
Most shit seems to make huge sweeping changes to the characters rather than building on what came before. It's telling that much of the tie-in media like the shows are calling back to the old continuity rather than the new one
>>78383142
Because it erased most characters' backgrounds completely. Things don't magically stop being bad after they've been around for a while.
You can leave a turd sitting on the floor for a few days, but it's still a turd.
>>78383124
>really I hope DC goes out of business
Let's not go crazy here. That would mean Marvel would be in control. That's a world I never want to see.
Hopefully they get new management and pull a Disney Renaissance though.
>>78383181
Grayson, The Omega Men being more morally grey, GL:DW, and Middie, to name a few.
>>78383181
Martian Manhunter being an enemy of the JL and being a bioweapon made by the White Martians
>>78383142
>>the reboot happened four years ago and some people still aren't over it
Guilty as charged. I'm still mad.
And I'm not reading DC until they undo it either. If that means I never read another DC comic again--oh fucking well. Why should I care? They erased my characters and inserted a bunch of Elseworlds characters in their place. I don't give a fuck about these new guys.
>>78383234
From that, only Grayson added something really good to the character continuity. Midnight isn't really up to his Wildstorm days. It feels too safe and nothing cool was added to the character still.
>>78383242
Martian Manhunter is a good example.
>>78383264
But You are of missing some actually good books though, something that Pre reboot was severely lacking
>>78383264
Examples? And dont say Wally.
>>78383073
Has anything in the Crisis on Infinite Earths actually contributed to the mythology of the characters rather than shitting all over them?
New Earth seems like a weird Imaginary Story.
>>78383299
My favorite books got cancelled by the reboot
Now we have Batgirl, which is the worst thing I've ever read, and Deadpool Harley
>>78383279
I meant just the fact that he's part of the main continuity, and can interact with mainstream DC characters.
>>78383299
Yeah, and I'm probably missing some good indie books, too, but I don't intend to start reading those books either.
I wanted the books I liked to continue, not to be served up 52 new ones with new characters.
>>78383279
His relationship with Prometheus and the fact that his origin was really the only thing that really changed
>>78383313
They're all different, dude. That's not the same Superman, Wonder Woman, etc., from before. Those are different characters. They might as well be Elseworlds.
>>78383322
And why are you reading those when we got books like Omega man and Martian manhunter that actually Retconned a lot of the shit of Jonn past and made him likeable and it even has Mr biscuit
>>78383242
But that's fucking awful
>>78383323
That's the thing, though. Other than him lusting for Dick's ass nothing worthwhile came out of it yet.
I'm still wondering why they even merged Wildstorm to the main universe. They haven't done nothing with it than some half-hearted and mediocre attempts.
>>78383331
Was it his new origin? Space owls still?
>>78383329
Well, it's not 52 new ones. GL and the Bat-Senpai mooostly carried over
>inb4 butthurt Cassfags
>>78383345
They seem pretty much the same to me, ill give you WW but every writer writes her different, hooing their version is the difintive one. Thats veen a thing since pre reboot
>>78383319
>Has anything in the Crisis on Infinite Earths actually contributed to the mythology of the characters rather than shitting all over them?
It did, a lot. Specially during the 90's.
>>78383073
There was some great stuff. Swamp Thing, Dial H, Animal Man, Action Comics, All Star Western, Frankenstein, but yeah the reboot was a mistake
>>78383370
I admit I did keep reading GL for a bit after the New 52 launched, but then the story got boring and I was already pissed at DC anyway so into the trash it went with all the other books.
>>78383354
Are you implying that J'onn wasn't likable? Are you retarded or something?
Just because they retconned it doesn't make it good. In fact, the fact that they retconned literally everything about the character makes me hate it more. It's not a Martian Manhunter book.
>>78383384
Swamp Thing, Animal Man, Dial H and All-Star Western kept the characters continuity intact. They were carryovers like Green Lantern and some of Batman.
>>78383214
>Because it erased most characters' backgrounds completely.
Yes, and? Sometimes characters need hard rebooting. Your precious continuity was also a result of CoIE erasing the back story of most characters.
>>78383345
>They might as well be Elseworlds.
Boo fucking hoo. As if this is somehow bad.
>>78383424
I'm more of a Infinite Crisis type of guy, that rolled everything back somewhat. I love me some nostalgia.
>>78383408
He was not back in the beginning of the reboot you dense idiot
>>78383440
I'm still waiting for Wonder Woman to hold Superman's jizz inside an urn. I sure thought this was going to happen when Supes lost his power.
>>78383382
Everything good could have been done without the Crisis! All it did was make things more confusing and ruin characters.
Who's this punk claiming to be Jason Todd? Jason Todd's supposed to a circus kid with red hair! Why are comics taking away all the redheads?
>>78383440
>as if having everything you like about a character eradicated is somehow good
>>78383479
So you're complimenting the fact that they unfucked a character that they had fucked with the reboot? Kinda like the whole Mister Miracle/Barda situation in JL?
>>78383479
>the reboot is good because it fixes problems the reboot caused
You are one goddamn dumb mother fucker
>>78383345
>>78383264
I always wonder if people had the same reactions to post-Crisis changes
>>78383367
Wildstorm was already dead by the time they merged with DC, nobody gave a flying fuck about them. DC should just keep putting some effort to actively use them rather than giving up when every Wildstorm book failed in the relaunch, though can't really blame editorial on that one.
>>78383498
>Everything good could have been done without the Crisis! All it did was make things more confusing and ruin characters.
This is not wrong, though. I always believed that. Just create a new universe and focus the new stories there.
Thanks to CoIE we had Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis. Heck, we're still in the process of rolling everything back with The Multiversity and Convergence.
You don't need to erase everything to build your shit when you've at your disposal such a neat concept that is the multiverse.
>>78383511
Oh so you are that guy, We once had a run about how Mister miracle was dealing with bard splitting out with him, bad characterisation was common thing in the pre reboot, and Johns decided to Fix it on JL
>>78383536
I guarantee JSA fans did.
>>78383508
Well it makes me smile like a gleeful cunt right now
>>78383566
Infinite Crisis was also the beginning of the worst era of DC
>>78383566
>Just create a new universe and focus the new stories there.
Oh, you mean like 2099, Ultimate universe?
>>78383593
2008 was a very cool year, mang. Hypercrisis came to birth during that time.
There was good stuff, like Dick becoming an agent. I think its a good development that sets him apart from Batman and seems like a pretty natural evolution of the character.
Lemiere's expansion of the Animal Man mythos was pretty cool, I really like the animal tribunal and the depiction of The Red and the whole thing with his daughter.
Soule expanding on Swamp Thing and adding all the different Parliaments, while kind of unneeded and derivative, had some neat ideas going for it.
But above all else, Dial H was an amazing reinvention of the core concept and really everyone should read it.
People who think new 52 was a mistake forget how fucking shitty the era was just before the reboot for most books.
>>78383615
Was final crisis 2009 or 2008 ? i forgot now
>>78383073
Fuck off Marvel Shill, you're not fooling anyone. DC is the best it's ever been right now.
>>78383611
YUp. No need to erase shit. Just do like they did back during the 50's. Establish that the new comics will be taking place in a new universe somewhere and be done with it. This way you leave open the chance of doing something with the older characters to bait the audience nostalgia.
Crises on Infinite Earths was DC's biggest mistake.
>>78383536
Oldfag here. Yes they did. Going into shops back then was always hilarious.
>>78383073
It's been 5 years get over it.
>>78383637
>Lemiere's expansion of the Animal Man mythos was pretty cool, I really like the animal tribunal and the depiction of The Red and the whole thing with his daughter.
This was nothing new, though. For those that didn't stopped reading Animal Man after Morrison's run the new run was just a very cool retreat.
>>78383566
From an in-story pov I agree, but the real reason DC did COIE is that sales were so bad higher ups were considering outright selling the entire company to Marvel.
>>78383659
except in both cases the new universe came crashing down hard because people lost interest because the books didn't matter, the status quo changes created to drum up interest just drove off more people
>>78383714
fair nuff, but do you think the crossover with Swamp Thing (which was good but had a lot of problems and a kind of terrible ending) would have happened in a pre new52 universe?
>>78383659
Isn't that exactly what Convergence did?
>>78383697
Tell me some stories grandpa anon
>>78383757
There were books back then that were already in production before the reboot and that were just held back for a bit for the relaunch.
Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Wonder Woman
Batwoman
Legion of Super-Heroes
Green Lantern (all)
Batman (some)
Aquaman (some things were changed)
There are more that i'm forgetting. These books would be released even there wasn't a reboot.
>>78383798
There really isn't much to tell, really. Just the nerds back then really were more like comic book guy than they are today. Sure, you had some nice people then, too, but liking things not sports had a worse stigma than it does today so the persecution complex was off the charts. Any change was a back stab to fans.
>>78383844
i though WW was going to be a vertigo tittle, so much that the art had to be changed a thousand times thanks to that
>>78383384
From that titles, what are still ongoing? What need the new continuity of the reboot to work?
>>78383878
It was going to be Wonder Woman new canon following JMS's failed run which ended leaving the door open for a reboot.
>>78383698
>leave bad thing for long enough
>magically becomes good thing
>>78383772
Convergence didn't do anything but waste everyone's time and bring a handful of pre-Nu52 characters into Earth-0
>>78383844
Funny thing is those were the only good ones from N52
>>78383984
forgetting about Dial H and Prez there son
>>78383073
>the mythology of the characters
Fucking lol
>>78384014
Prez is an elseworlds story so the Nu52 is irrelevant to it. You're right about Dial H though. Also Demon Knights.
>>78383978
Yes, but it made it so the old characters were "still out there somewhere." I don't understand the mentality that it makes a difference whether the old universe is dead or not. You're not going to see them either way. The old comics still exist in this universe, that's what matters.
>>78383124
Fuck off Tom Brefort
>>78384105
Demon Knight had an awful pace and went fuckall nowhere. The characters in the book also all had better material before.
>>78383181
Grayson
>>78386053
I liked it you fag
>>78383181
The Court of Owls are cool.
Manual reminder that literally none of the post-New52 stories required the annihilation of the old continuity.
We got SOME good stories out of it, but they didn't need to trash all of the old ones. A relaunch would've done the exact thing they wanted without ruining everything else.
>>78383073
I still kind of hate what happened to Cyborg. I would have rather they made him one of the younger heroes who finally graduated to the big leagues (which I guess technically happened in Robinson's JLA) than ripping his origin from the Titans to the JLA.
>>78384090
Indiean please go
>caring more about mythology/continuity shit instead of just enjoying good individual stories
Getting into cape comics was a mistake I guess.
>>78387395
Don't let shitty fans ruin it for you.
As solid as DC's output has been for the past year+, the universe still really does feel very small.
So many characters are still gone, and those who aren't largely feel completely disconnected from each other. The sense of camaraderie, community, and friendship just isn't there anymore, and it's kind of a bummer.
Hopefully JLU gets relaunched or something, because it was the only book doing anything about that.
Folding the JSA back into the main universe is gonna be great for this when it inevitably happens.
>>78387395
They really aren't good individual stories though. I'd forgive it if it were good, but it's not.
>>78387579
Omega Men, Dial H, Wonder Woman, Action Comics, etc.
>>78387579
That's just your opinion. I've enjoyed a lot of New52 books and I'm also digging many DCYou series.
>>78383073
SHAZAM! and Forever Evil off the top of my head.
>>78387395
Nah
With cape stuff being most of the market, there's always plenty of good cape books to go around, not to mention decades of old ones.
Even the first wave of the reboot, which was an editorial mess, had at least a dozen solid cape titles.
>>78387612
Most of which suffer from the reboot, rather than being better for it.
>>78387706
How did any of those suffer from the reboot?
>>78387663
Forever Evil could have been done without the reboot
>>78383637
Dick becoming a secret agent would probably work in the old continuity. Especially since it's a continuation of Morrison's work
Still blows my mind that a Phantom Stranger book lasted more than 20 issues.
>>78387706
Or now you're just lying.
Omega Men barely showed up and their last mini was pretty mediocre.
The previous Dial H series sucked.
Pre-reboot Wonder Woman was a fucking mess.
Cornell's Action Comics was Outstanding when it was a Lex Luthor ongoing, but that story wrapped up and the Doomsday crossover it ended with was pretty lame.
>>78387663
This
The Shazam franchise was a complete mess pre flashpoint.
>>78387766
Man, what the fuck were they even thinking with everything after 52?
>Convergence wasn't used as an excuse to change up the continuity, keeping the New 52 stuff that worked and undoing the really stupid shit/bringing back characters
Why, DC?
You fags are still mad, i mean the stories pre-new 52 is still there you can read them anytime you want.
>>78387718
Action comics and Wonder Woman constantly conflicted with the main books, the others suffered from having an unstructured mess of a universe.
>>78387763
That's the weakness of the writer of the last Omega Men book, same with Dial H, nothing to do with the reboot.
Wonder Woman did need to be cleaned up, but a reboot isn't what she needed, she needed something like Power Girl got 12 issues of, before they handed it off to a team that caused the book to be dropped so goddamn fast you'd think it'd just been coated in spiders.
>>78387860
They did bring back characters
>>78387216
those stories still exist anon
as long as they exist in your heart and in your hands they can never truly be eradicated
>>78387763
The Post-reboot Dial H kept the canon of all the previous pre-reboot Dial H books.
>>78383073
At least they finally got rid of Wonder Woman/Superman shit, that lasted way longer than it should've. The relationship at best felt more like some weird friendship than an actual relationship.
I am still deeply peeved over how some characters got the shaft because of the reboot. I also thought Futures End had an interesting idea with bringing Earth 2 characters to the main Earth. Because hey, if that happened in main Earth continuity right now that would open up a slew of new story potential. From villains to heroes being all around.Maybe it was just wishful thinking though, but I wanted Barry to possibly team-up with Jay. I want the Flash family to start growing again.
>>78383264
I'm still mad they brought back Barry/Hal
as far as I'm concerned, Johns is the worst thing to happen to comics ever
>>78383354
MM is shit though
>>78383508
But everything you like about the characters isn't eradicated by a reboot, unless the only thing you like is backstory.
I havent really spent too much time catching up. Constantine, swamp thing, and batman were so disappointing Ive kind of given up on mainstream dc. I still read grayson because i dig the idea, but im just not interested in the rest. Nu52 flash seems fucking awful.
I dont get the wank over nu52 swamp thing. It was just a massive retread/ripoff of moore era stuff, done poorly, with a really stupid alternate future crossover in the middle. Bringing vertigo shit back into the main universe was a mistake.
>>78388619
New52 Flash IS terrible. Don't read it. Do read Omega Men and some other stuff. It's weird, a lot of the mainstream popular stuff is utter shite right now (probably because the fanboys still lap that shit up) while the niche stuff is really good
Things I've personally enjoyed from the reboot
The complete retooling of Wonder Woman and Olympus
The emphasis on espionage in Suicide Squad, Grayson, Midnighter, and the Wildstorm spy organizations
Stormwatch working in the universe, though they've only been great in Future's End
Black Adam/Sinestro Bromance
Harper Row, though I know she's incredibly divisive
Omega Men retooling
Martian Manhunter's more ambiguous standing within the community
The retooling of Shazam
Red Lanterns
The emphasis of the Green and Red, etc. in Animal Man, Swamp Thing, JLD, etc.
Expanding the Aquaman Mythos and his standing in the JL
Forever Evil
Things I haven't liked all that much
Earth 2
The new Harley Quinn
Condensing the Green Lantern and Batman mythos
The Handling of Wally West and Donna Troy
The uneven handling of Superman
The lack of use for Wildstorm characters
>>78388386
>Johns is the worst thing to happen to comics ever
At least DC, yea. His storytelling, and the writers it spawned is surface level, thin, analogous to a kid smashing together action figures with each big plot beat being a character sneaking up on another yelling something edgy in a colorful voice bubble.
>>78388688
>Expanding the Aquaman Mythos and his standing in the JL
What mythos? Because when io think Aquaman Mythos, i think of Peter David. Geoff Johns did shit with it. There's a lot of prophesies and promises, pretty much like what happened with his Green Lantern run, but that's all. Johns is really good at building hype, not so much at the execution of it.
>>78388688
>The lack of use for Wildstorm characters
Seems like Seeley is trying to bring more of them in Grayson though. We got Midnighter, Ladytron, Grifter in the next issues and possibly Jack Hawksmoor too.
>>78388672
Manabooch's run was good!
>>78390084
yeah, but the current run by Vendetti is garbage
>>78388786
Peter David was a long time ago. Between Peter David and Geoff Johns the Aquaman mythos got pretty much buried. As for Johns, you can personally thank him for kick ass Mera. His run on the character was way too short, especially considering how he was playing the long game, but still.
What's the best Flash run? I've only read most of the New 52 run.
Other than animal man, I can't think of one hero that got better out of this.
