Is Toph a Mary Sue?
>>78190484
Nah
>>78190484
Nah she had legitimate personality problems
>>78190484
nah, she's kinda of an annoying "cool girl" cunt
Sokka might be tho.
Is Jin a Slutty Sam?
>>78190636
No she's just a hooker
>>78190484
Of course, considering Mary Sue has no standard definition and is just applied to any character they don't like.
Following the guideline of the original Mary Sue, we have three notable traits.
1: Improbably talented for her age
2: Has skills no one else possesses
3: Is well-liked by central characters for no reason
While she fits category 2, She misses out on Category 1 because she's the same age as most of the other prepubescent prodigies in the show, and category 3 because she has open conflict with many members of the main cast.
>>78190484
No, she's a Toph. They don't have Marys or Sues in their world.
>>78190768
well she does create an entirely new form of bending so i say she does fit into the first category
>>78190822
it isn't improbable though. it is explained why she is so good at bending, and it's a part of her character.
>>78190904
It's totally improbable. You're really underselling how OP Toph is.
At the age of 12, she:
1) Had a unique fighting style nobody else used
2) Had the unique ability of seismic sense
3) Invented metalbending
4) Could defeat professional earthbending fighters easily in her first appearance
5) Fought Bumi, a master with decades more experience with all of it during wartime, to a draw
How'd she get so good? By hanging around some beasts of burdens for a few years while she was barely old enough to not shit her rich girl panties.
Depends.
Do you mean an actual Mary Sue in that she is a self-insert of the author who is extremely talented, universally well-liked, incapable of doing wrong and always successful in everything she does? (See: Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way)
Or do you mean the modern definition of a mary sue in that she is more competent, popular or powerful than you're comfortable with and you don't like her? (See: Superman)
>>78191011
To be fair, everyone in the Gaang has fought older, more experienced opponents and won.
She was would have been on if not for The Chase and The Runaway. But she came pretty damn close.
>>78191050
Jesus, you what are you asspained about, Supesfag?
>>78191083
>Jesus, you what are you asspained about, Supesfag?
Has anyone really gone far?
>>78190604
>constantly victim of pratfall nonsense
>Just says corny bullshit that everyone rolls their eyes at when he isn't formulating battle plans every other episode
>spends an episode in a hole, another episode way fucked up on peyote
No, he's treated like a silly guy much of the time
>>78191011
They explained pretty clearly that if they want to, the original benders can imbue people with OP bending
>>78191083
>mention superman as an example of a character who is often incorrectly called a mary sue
>lol buttmad supesfag
okay
>>78191011
It's established that hanging around beasts with bending powers gives you a huge leg up on everyone else; look at Zuko, or Wan. Toph hung out with the badger moles a lot more than they hung out with dragons.
>>78191011
In all fairness, Aang NEEDED an amazing earthbender to be his teacher, it might have made more rational sense if it were some big buff dude like The Boulder, but they did something fun with it and made an interesting character, Toph's action scenes are great and she's all around enjoyable so does it really matter?
>>78191157
Zuko didn't meet dragons until he went to see them with Aang. Zuko's primary teacher was Iroh.
>>78191157
So if I hang out with the moon and the ocean my water-bending skills will be tremendous!
>make way for the best water-bender!
Even though she can "see", she can't see. She also NEEDS to feel the earth, or she'll go nuts.
She wouldn't be if it wasn't for the super-sight thing. It's basically the most powerful superpower in the show's existence - like Daredevil, if Daredevil could also bend metal. And the whole justification for this amazing talent that literally nobody has ever been able to do before is... she was blind and imitated some animals. Yeah. THAT'S apparently all it takes.
The show tries to play it off as if being blind is actually a disadvantage, but it's sorta like calling someone with super strong robot legs 'crippled' because the legs don't have nerves.
>>78191157
>>78191207
That doesn't not make her a mary sue. Thats just her reasons for being OP as fuck.
not to mention mary sues are always tortured in SOME way to make them seem less like a mary sue.
>I was born blind and my parents don't understand me
>I got lost and then got trained by some moles and now i can see using the floor and I'm now the worlds best earth bender. Oh and I can even bend metal.
>>78191054
Not to the degree Toph has.
Katara: beat Hama but got stomped by Pakku
Sokka: lost to Piandao who was holding back
Aang: is the Avatar
Azula: cheap shotted Iroh, but not before getting kicked off a boat by him
Zuko: got ass kicked all the time
>>78191157
>>78191142
Her power level is still pretty ridiculous considering there are a ton of badgermoles in Ba Sing Se. Again, fought Bumi to a fucking draw.
>>78191207
>In all fairness, Aang NEEDED an amazing earthbender to be his teacher
Not really. Katara wasn't really that amazing compared to Toph. Toph was also a pretty shit teacher to begin with.
>she's all around enjoyable
She's only enjoyable because she's cute and spunky. As a character, she's pretty insufferable and spoiled.
>>78191011
Toph is blind and can only "see" using her earthbending. She is literally practicing earthbending 24/7. Of course she'd be better than just about everyone else. And the seismic sense wasn't that unique if Aang picked it up.
>>78191364
>>78190484
The way Katara suddenly became a waterbending god is pretty bullshit. She's pretty mary sueish until the show purposely tries to get us to dislike her.
>>78191332
>she was blind and imitated some animals
It's not just "some animal" it's the species that were the very first Earthbenders. You could argue she learned the purest kind of Earthbending possible. Also as a consequence of being so connected to the earth she's ineffectual when not on solid ground which I think is a fair drawback.
>>78191332
Being blind isn't inherently an advantage though. She copied the seismic step technique from the (also blind) badger-moles. Her entire fighting style is built around the technique, including how she learned metal bending. It's not that she's just naturally op as fuck, she just has one stupidly strong and versatile technique that others can't use.
>>78191386
>Toph is blind and can only "see" using her earthbending. She is literally practicing earthbending 24/7
That's doesn't count as practicing earthbending. That's like saying every time you make a fist, you're practicing boxing. Toph isn't manipulating earth, or practicing forms, or sparring with anyone.
>>78191466
>she's ineffectual when not on solid ground
She got over the sand thing in a few episodes and earthbenders aren't really strong on water to begin with. It's not really much of a drawback.
>>78191433
I don't know why most people think Katara's progression was bad but like Toph.
Now people are usong the term incorrectly.
/co/ is so shit when it tries to analyze fiction... Pure autism.
>>78190797
>no sues in their world
But there is a Suyin. If she wasn't there, ALL of Season 4 of Korra would have been completely avoided.
>>78190484
the plot rarely revolved around her and she was never better at other people's specializations than they were.
There's nothing mary-su-ish about being the best earthbender ever when Aang was always more important than her in every way
>>78191364
>Zuko: got ass kicked all the time
They mentioned it repeatedly that he's a fucking failure as a bender, especially for being the child of a firelord and the grandchild or a previous avatar.
His biggest moments were whenever he was swordfighting or running around on walls, and when he threw back a full power lightning blast in his fathers face.
>>78191543
Shut up man, I really don't believe that you are só stupid to actually think that she is a Mary Sue.
To begin with, she gets called out and hás conflict with a lot of characters, the world also don't bens over to ver, and she isn't a black hole that makes the plot be about her. She is just much stronger than the typical earth bender, and this is her entire point, but just being strong don't make anyone a Mary sue.
Don't forget that the world os based on wuxia movies, where this is common.
Also, Aang easily defeated her.
>>78191011
Yeah, a genius born into money in a pre-science civilization is likely to do stuff like that.
>>78191574
>analyzing fiction
>pure autism
well duh
>>78191543
they were at the north pole for like 4 episodes tops and in those 4 episodes she goes from being aang's equal in water bending to being his equal if he were air bending. It's retarded as hell
>>78191690
He won over Zhao, that is an importante admiral, and fought Aang to a draw on the episode about the lady with the perfume. Also, Azula only had a chance to hit lighting on Aang, because Zuko was helping ver against him and Katara
He was able to invade and defeat everyone on his path without bending on a FN fortress, and almost won over a comandant earth Bender without bending.
Why people rhibks that he is weak? He never get the fore bending like his sister, but he is obviously extremelly skilled.
>>78191690
>They mentioned it repeatedly that he's a fucking failure as a bender
Zuko is only a failure compared to the special snowflakes that compose the main cast.
He was good enough to beat Zhao at Agni Kais twice, could swordbend through an entire fortress, fight Jet and earthbending soldiers without his bending, and eventually caught up to pre-crazy Azula's skill level. He's like the fourth best firebender by the end of the series.
>>78191752
How does being born into money let you buy skill?
>>78191723
Using your guidelines for Mary Sue-ism, she fits two of the three requirements. Crazy overpowered and unique skills nobody else has.
>Aang easily defeated her.
Aang is the fucking avatar. It doesn't help her case if he's the only one who can beat her.
>>78191818
he still loses every fight against a main character and doesn't even defeat his personal enemy.
>>78191849
>Aang is the fucking avatar.
More specifically it was his airbending gave him the advantage against her in a situation she had no way of foreseeing.
>>78191889
>and doesn't even defeat his personal enemy.
Yes he does you fucking dolt, his personal enemy was HIMSELF. He beat that by becoming better than he was.
>>78191011
Because she's fucking Daredevil. Don't you people watch the show?
>>78191849
>How does being born into money let you buy skill?
Leisure time to pursue it. Duh.
>>78191849
he's better than Zhao, grunts and maybe aang, but thats it really. every other firebender we've focused on has been on a different level compared to him. even his father was shown to be alot more badass.
>>78191011
>5) Fought Bumi, a master with decades more experience with all of it during wartime, to a draw
When the fuck was this?
>>78191914
>Yes he does you fucking dolt, his personal enemy was HIMSELF. He beat that by becoming better than he was.
And he's a failure as a king and a person because of bullshit like that.
>>78191770
Katara was a prodigy who excelled once she met a proper teacher and got good after constant fighting. Even so, she never reached master level. Pakku only really said she was good enough to continue Aang's training, not that she was good enough to be a master. Doesn't help that Aang half-asses his training alot.
>>78191956
He was on equal footing with Azula by the "Southern Raiders".
>inb4 Azulafags say she was already going crazy despite not showing any evidence that she is
>>78191993
>And he's a failure as a king and a person because of bullshit like that.
Why the fuck are you reading the comics you're only making it worse on yourself
>>78191849
There are much more requirements to be a Mary sue.
Being powerful for their age is common on avatar, even people like Ty Lee, Azula, Mai and Jet are much more skilled than people with less than 17 would actually be.
By your admission, half of the cast of avatar os a mary sue them, considering that types like Ty Lee had an almost unkque style that was used to defeat elit earth benders with Yeats of experience.
But this kind of argument os obviously stupid.
Just accept that on this world people van be masters at a young age, because it's fucking wuxia movie logic and its fine. Being overpowered don't make a Sue, the way that the storuly TREAT you, males you a sue.
>>78191989
The Lost Adventures comics. It was a draw because the fight between the two of them was wrecking the surroundings enough that the Fire Nation was going to find their position easily.
>>78192033
cause you know what, at the end of the day the flash says "fuck all that honor bullshit, i'm gonna go get shit done" and actually gets shit done.
>>78190484
nah a sue would have soft feet despite being barefoot all the time
>>78191956
Every other firebender are just the there best of the world.
Seriously, being the fourth os a hell out of an achievement.
>>78191011
>Fought Bumi to a draw
When?
And Toph's ability made her uniquely suited to defeating Earthbenders. She got absolutely rekt by Aang in their first meeting because she couldn't utilize it.
As for the beast of burden thing, it took Zuko 2 minutes with a dragon to suddenly relearn firebending, so if we're gonna talk animal bullshit, let's start there.
Also Toph got rekt by Azula, so if we're gonna talk bullshit prodigies, no one was more "special" than Azula.
>>78192084
Well is Ty Lee a mary sue?
Cause i think so
>>78192084
>Being powerful for their age is common on every series with young main characters
ftfy
>>78192137
Nah, she is just strong. Being strong don't makes you a Mary sue, stealing the spotlight and being always right males you one.
Ty Lee was show a lot of times to be weak of mind, until the finale, and the story never treated ver as beibg always right.
You guys are fucking stupid, and call everything a Mary sue.
>>78192084
In a series full of special snowflakes, Toph is the worst. It's not that Toph is powerful for her age. It's that she's powerful compared to other special snowflakes.
No other child prodigy in the series could fight a master in their art to a draw.
>>78192131
>As for the beast of burden thing, it took Zuko 2 minutes with a dragon to suddenly relearn firebending, so if we're gonna talk animal bullshit, let's start there
The original master thing is bullshit since Katara lived her entire fucking life next to the ocean in view of the moon, and she could barely make a puddle.
>>78190706
Demonstrate your claim.
>>78192230
Azula defeated her.
Aang almost didn'r anything.
And sheer power doesn't make someone a sue.
>>78192257
She never talked to the spirits directly. Remember that they had physical forms?
>>78192227
>Always right
>Responding to everything as if he's better than us
you would know one you fucking mary sue
>>78192270
>a master in their art to a draw
Bumi who is 112 years old and the worlds best earthbender.
sure she lost fights against fire or air, which to be honest are both invisible to her, but when it comes to earth, she's automatically the best.
>>78190484
No, seeing as how no one likes her. Including her children.
>>78192230
She is not even that powerful compared to the rest of the cast though, Aang beats her, Azula's gang beats her, Zuko would arguably beat her at the end of the series.
She's legit around everyone else's power level.
>>78192476
>counting the comics
That's just unfair seeing as they're just shit in general, not to mention Bumi being 112 would put him out of his prime.
>>78192504
Also this, she has genuine problems through out the series and if you're counting the comics I'm counting Korra, she's a massive fuck up and failure as a parent.
>>78192476
She can litetally predict all movements of earth bending before they are finished. Makes perfect sense actually.
You probably complain when the blind swormaster of a wuxia movie defeats everyone too.
>>78192230
Katara held her own against a master before she even got good.
Tai lee repeatedly made a fool of benders without any bending.
>>78192641
>Katara held her own against a master before she even got good.
Pakku wasn't even trying. It was like a little kid trying to beat up their dad. Wasn't even close.
>>78192618
yeah cause it's still fucking bullshit.
Hell i justify superman, but i understand he's bullshit at times.
Nah, she's just a protagonist.
>>78192672
She impressed him.
>>78192711
So fuck you, go whatch a fucking documentary if you can't accept basic breaks from realitty commons on different genres, like wuxia, action and fantasy/adventure.
Seriously, fuck you, your autism is ridiculous. Stop trying to ise real world physics or logic, when the genre don't work on that way. Its like complaining about travelling above the speed of the light to other planets on most of scify stories.
No, she's just minmaxed as fuck.
She exchanged OP powers for being a blind asshole.
>>78192851
>>78190484
>Wasn't a self insert
>Didn't have a crazy hair or eye color
>Wasn't remarkably attractive
>Wasn't always right
>had flaws
>Wasn't loved by everyone for no reason
>Did not resolve every plot
>Did not die in some kind of incredible sacrifice because she was too good for this sinful earth.
Nope
>>78192230
I've always justified that as Toph's sensing abilities giving her an extra edge when fighting Earthbenders that she doesn't have against the other bending styles. Bumi would probably fare better in combat than her against any other type of bender (especially air).
The fact that Toph was literally blind, couldn't use her sensing abilities off of solid earth and was unable to fight anything that could fly or move off of the ground for extended periods of time makes this false
>>78190636
What are her rates
By now Mary Sue is someone who has it unreasonably good. Toph does not have excessive handouts of sympathy nor does she venture beyond standard protagonist power package without a good excuse (Although you'd expect some blind earthbender to exist and develop metalbending before)
>>78190484
most people in this thread doesnt konw what mary sue means
im fairly certain you don't either
>>78191364
>Azula: cheap shotted Iroh, but not before getting kicked off a boat by him
he's got like 40 years of experience on her.
>>78192010
>He was on equal footing with Azula by the "Southern Raiders".
She was starting to lose it by then.
>>78195101
>She was starting to lose it by then.
Citation needed Crapper.
>>78195124
It was evident right after the betrayal she was not herself.
>>78191364
Piando is the most proportionally OP character in avatar though. He killed a legion firebenders when they tried to conscript him.
>>78195171
citation needed
>>78190484
mary sue has really lost its meaning
>>78195387
Watch the show.
>>78195430
Just saying somebody looks like something doesn't count as evidence.
Are you fucking your professors to get your way through school you retarded fucking shit?
>>78195493
are you actually replying to shitposters?
>>78190484
No one is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu in this show, not even in Korra.
You don't know what a Mary Sue is. Kill yoursef.
>>78195493
How many goddamn times do I have to point it out to you? She was paranoid in a few scenes before that fight and then she started cackling about being an only child. She was slipping.
>>78195633
This desu baka senpai. Hiro should filter the word "Mary Sue". Fuck that tvtropes shit.
>>78195673
>TVtropes invented Mary Sues
Really now?
>>78195657
>then she started cackling about being an only child
She does that all the time.
>She was paranoid in a few scenes before that fight
Give an example. You can't just say she was paranoid. How was she paranoid?
>>78190484
>Mary Sue
Don't use terms that you don't understand.
>>78195735
They took it to ridiculous extremes.
>>78190484
Toph is just a powergamer who took a bunch of disadvantages at character creation.
Mary Sues are specifically self inserts and aspirational fantasies. Nancy Drew is more of a Mary Sue than Toph is. Toph is OP but she's a character written by people and made to interact with the world of the show. She isn't a deus ex machina.
You people are all stupid assholes who are looking to piggyback off of whatever internet nerd-cred slang you can find to create artificial discourse. Fucking parasites. You're the real Mary Sues.
Nah, but she was an overpowered brat.
>>78197494
>Mary Sues are specifically self inserts and aspirational fantasies.
Incorrect. Mary Sues are specifically characters that excel in their fields to an unrealistic feat, who hardly ever or never face repercussions for their actions, are revered by here other members of their cast, and are expected to be loved by the audience.
Criticisms of these type of characters have been made long before and after "mary sue" was even a term and they have been applied to self-inserts, protagonists, antagonists, and even side characters.
>>78197843
>Mary Sues are specifically characters that excel in their fields to an unrealistic feat, who hardly ever or never face repercussions for their actions, are revered by here other members of their cast, and are expected to be loved by the audience.
That's close, but "wish-fulfillment self insert fanfiction OC" is critical to the definition of "Mary Sue", otherwise the term has no universally-understood meaning, and becomes [dumb] shorthand for "character I don't like", which is useless in any sort of discussion.
>>78197471
So she's a Munchkin?
What are her stats?
>>78196190
>She does that all the time.
Bullshit before the betrayal she was calm and calculating.
>Give an example. You can't just say she was paranoid. How was she paranoid?
Dude she was hysterical when attacking Zuko.
>>78192957
>Wasn't remarkably attractive
You would not believe what blind girls do for my penis.
>>78192476
>Counting the comics
Sure, let's go ahead and count the EU for Star Wars and all the What If stories for Superman while we're at it.
>>78190484
No. You have to remember, Mary Sues have to be flawless, morally perfect and always right, not just extremely talented.
>>78198038
Assuming some DnD system, Dump stats are probably INT and CHA.
Primary stats are WIS and CON. STR is low,
Dex is average.
Something like
6 Str
7 Int
6 Cha
10 Dex
16 Wis
14 Con
I dunno, been ages since I did any PnP stuff.
>>78198086
>Dude she was hysterical when attacking Zuko.
>hysterical
She made a one-liner. That's not really hysterical.
Zuko, who knows Azula better than you do, could sense when she was crazy during Sozin's Comet, but didn't sense anything wrong then.
Zuko caught up in skill level because he kept training while Azula coasted on her laurels. It's not that she's bad, Zuko just got good. But go on ahead and try to defend your not-waifu's competency while also simultaneously believe she's a scared little girl who doesn't understand anything.
>>78198363
Because Azula wasn't in the middle of a fucking breakdown at that time. Anyone could have seen she was out of it at Sozin's Comet.
>>78190484
The minute anyone gets off the ground shes fucked.
>>78191011
So does that mean Daredevil is a Mary Sue too?
>>78191146
>incorrectly called a mary sue
>Superman
>>78191050
>extremely talented, universally well-liked, incapable of doing wrong and always successful in everything (s)he does?
>>78190484
Whats that???
>>78190768
>1: Improbably talented for her age
Talented despite being blind. Age is not the factor. She was made young so she fit in. The best earth benders are moles and she is blind like the moles. It is actually built into the overall story from the previous season.
>2: Has skills no one else possesses
Still blind. And many others have similar talents. Her being the best is not a factor in being a Mary Sue.
>3: Is well-liked by central characters for no reason
There is plenty of reason beyond her just teaching the avatar earth bending. They like her for her very specific skills that were established and maintained from the beginning.
She really doesn't know anything other than her earth bending.
She would be a Mary Sue is she knew finances just because her family is rich. If she knew/met the world leaders before the gang met them. If she befriended all the animals instantly. If she could cook despite being a pampered little girl. She stays within the scope of her character.
She would be a Mary Sue is she had skills outside of earth bending. Besides that and her comic timing she doesn't have many other skills.
Sokka on the other hand. Guy knows engineering, sword fighting, mathematics, astrology, sailing, dated the Moon, cooking and various other talents. There is the Mary Sue.
>>78198417
Exactly. She wasn't showing any major symptoms of duress, nor was there any indication that it impacted her fighting performance.
>>78198923
She was falling but she didn't hit bottom.
>>78197843
>unrealistic feat
You know whats unrealistic?
Freezing yourself for 100 years
Bending air
Riding a flying Bison
Bending water
Bending earth
Bending fire
Normal people who normal weapons able to stand a chance against said bending
Water bending submarines
Somehow defeating one of the strongest fire benders alives while his fire bending is boosted by ten with twoish years of training
>>78198842
>Sokka on the other hand. Guy knows engineering, sword fighting, mathematics, astrology, sailing, dated the Moon, cooking and various other talents. There is the Mary Sue.
Someone is not a Mary Sue because they have multiple talents. And that he dated the Moon was hardly a benefit to him.
>>78198999
But wouldn't Aang be the most powerful fire bender in the world by default?
>>78199114
Point being: He is an uneducated teen with unrealistic abilities that he should not have.
The moon part was a joke.
>>78199148
Well... the engineering and sword fighting he learned from that one smith guy, didn't he? And mathematics you can learn anywhere. And astronomy. In fact, engineering, mathematics and astronomy are kind of in the same skill group, providing they're not too complicated.
As for the cooking...
Thing is, multitalents just exist. They are a thing.
>>78198980
>ban evading
>>78199230
Huh?
>>78190768
The other prebubescent prodigies are also improbably taleneted for their age, hence "prodigies". I believe she's also the youngest person we see bending period before Tenzin's kids in LoK.
Who the fuck is her husband?
>>78190484
No.
>>78199280
>husband
>>78199280
>husband
>>78199114
>Someone is not a Mary Sue because they have multiple talents
Correct, but a Mary Sue is someone who has talents they should not have. A back water tribe hick should not have all those abilities.
But I would say he is not a Mary Sue, if he could also water bend, then I would say he was.
>>78190484
why does she have huge titties and a child bearing hips for an 11 year old?
>>78199822
Because you are imagining it in your pedophile mind.
>>78199822
she doesn't. your pedo brain is exaggerated unremarkable features.
>>78199888
>A pedophile calling someone a pedophile.
>>78190484
Toph had tits?
>>78199822
>huge titties
>child bearing hips
She literally doesn't you idiot. She's starting to go through puberty, as she's the same age as Aang (12).
No. She is incredibly powerful but all of her abilities are justified in-universe. Also, she is not particularly competent outside of her area of expertise and has numerous personality flaws. Toph is like the poster child for making a tomboy token disabled character actually good.
>>78199173
Cooking and astronomy are at least the BASIC things that a society of hunters that travel by boat should know.
What has he diplayed as engineering? I cant remember.
I wonder tho, where the mathematics came from...when he used it? When dealing with maps? If so, it shouldnt be that strange for people who sail on boats that look like viking ships. In terms of navigation and boat construction, Water Tribe seems to be much more like norse men than inuit.
And we are show him learning how to sword fight.
In the end, he has plenty of negative qualitties that makes him not being a mary sue.
>>78198363
Maan I would pay in bodyparts for a series with bumi as the protag.
>>78192919
Looks like you lost lol
>>78198470
What about when she's in the airship and turns herself into Iron Man? Or anytime they're in a boat and someone throws her some rocks?
>>78200980
When they're staying with the inventor guy with the paraplegic son who were living in one of the Air Temples, Sokka gives the guy some ideas, I think he literally invents the hot-air balloon in his universe.
>>78190484
>slut
>rejected by all the male characters
>mary sue
pick one.
>>78201863
She can see trouth metal on the last season.
>>78201904
But he just used some logic based on what the scientist said about how the gas worked, not some master engenering calculus.
