>get a burst of creativity and write a shitload of story in my setting for once
>it's really coming together and getting pretty refined
>realize that i will never have the artistic talent to tell the story the way i want to
what hope is there
alternatively, how much does it cost to hire an artist to draw a webcomic
>>81732186
There's a sort of tradeoff between reliability and price. It's easy to find people who will work for next-to-nothing, but they're very likely to give up or pursue better offers.
There's also the question of exactly how much of the process you are looking to outsource. Do you know how to come up with panel layouts and framing? Do you know how to divide dialogue up into properly-sized bubbles, and position those bubbles in a readable way? It's going to cost more to hand someone a story and say "adapt this into a comic" than it will to hand them bubbled thumbnails and say "make this pretty".
>>81732374
well, i'm not going to pretend i'm a professional, but i certainly have an idea of how these things are supposed to work. but ideally i would work closely with a passionate artist who loves the story as much as i do and we work on it together, both doing some art-stuff and write-stuff
but that's kind of moving into some delusional "work for video games"-tier stuff, i imagine
$30/page, bear minimum, more if you want color.
If you have a job you can easily sustain your hobby ($240 a month for two updates each week), but if you cared enough and had any talent as a writer you'd either be half competent as an artist and be able to make it yourself or the sheer talent to pull off your story with garbage art.
Basically, unless you want to make a publishable book and pitch it around at publishers, just buckle down and do it your goddamn self.
>>81732748
this is kind of silly advice desu, loads of writers arent "half competent" artists. it's not a requirement for talent
"just do it" is always bad advice really, unless the only thing stopping someone is sheer laziness
Don't talk about it, be about it: kill yourself already.
Go read Grant Morrison's final draft Arkham Asylum ASHOSE. He wrote the entire thing out more as a film script, with scene breakdowns and stage directions, and then did thumbnail panels for the ENTIRE work, when it was originally a 64 pahe treatment iirc.
Point being if you're gonna blindly hand this off to someone and say "adapt this", you need to give them absolutely as much direction as possible.
That said, Dave Mckean did end up throwing out nearly all of Morrison's artwork in favor of a heavily experimental artstyle, so depending on the look you want your "developer art" so to speak may be entirely unimportant.
>>81732812
See
>>81732935
If you have a passion for comics, you're going to put your heart into it. If you can't even bother to TRY to draw, you weren't going to make it anyway. Stop making excuses and either do it or fucking go home. You don't have to do it alone, but people like OP refuse to even try.
Why not give us a sample, OP?
>>81732850
No need, I'm already dead.
>>81733383
his advice was better than yours, he didn't literally say "just do it," he gave a good, concrete example
i know it's 4chan but that doesn't automatically mean you need to be a shithead
>>81733415
Sorry, I would, but it's not going to make much sense out of context. Furthermore, I didn't actually proofread it, and I'm not comfortable showing it off yet. You know what they say, if you show your stuff off to people, you're less likely to work on it. I think they say that.
>>81732935
>>81733383
I suppose that's not a bad way of looking at it. I just really don't want to tell my story with shitty "developer art," I don't want people to be turned off by it. Perhaps it's an unwarranted concern.
>>81733483
Oh, stop acting like a little bitch just because your feelings were hurt. You were just going to ignore them and let the thread die anyway.
Comics are a visual medium and if you have a passion for that you have to contribute to it, no matter how "bad" you are. Writing isn't just about events and dialogue and pacing, it's about detail, setting, emotion, clarity, focus, viewpoint, style, meaning, character, expression, communication, translation. If you don't care enough to thumbnail your pages, just go write a book. There is literally nothing standing between you and the story you want to tell except your commitment, which includes a commitment to improving your skills.
It's seriously as simple as do or don't, you just might have to spend time practicing if you choose "do".
FUCK
OFF
TALENT IS A MYTH
A FUCKING MYTH, YOU UNDERSTAND?
APPLY YOURSELF, FUCKWAD
LEARN SHIT
STUDY
WORK
ON
YOUR
FUCKING
ART
>>81733515
Everyone is expecting you to come out swinging with thumbnail developer art. If you're actively looking for an artist then obviously you don't have finalized art yourself.
There's a reason every big comic release has a 6 man team working on it, nobody is going to sleight you for not being able to make everything.
>>81733766
lol
>>81733766
Is this a serious post?
It can't be a serious post, this is the 21st century. We know about genetics.
>>81733515
>it's not going to make much sense out of context
>I didn't actually proofread it
>I'm not comfortable showing it off yet.
Then you're not far enough along to be worrying about hiring an artist yet.
If you've got a good enough story, it should be able to work one page at a time. It might not "make sense", but comics are like books in that every page, every line, matters. A good page of a comic can usually (there's always exceptions) stand on its own as comprehensible and assessed on its composition with absolutely no context, even if the events are crazy nonsense like pic related.
You're still figuring out what you want to write and how it's going to happen, and that's fine. Save the worrying for when you figure out what goes where and why.
>>81733856
Genetics literally do not equate to talent outside of savantism.
Talent is code for "I've been doing this since I was a kid", or at most "I pick up on this faster than normal"
You do not come out of the womb being a good writer, artist or etc. Maybe mathematics and logic but that still requires a great deal of instruction.
>>81733861
Yeah, I suppose you're right. I just tend to worry a little too much
Some pretty good posts in here so thanks guys
>>81733792
There's a big difference between expecting them to be an artist and saying they should at least try to thumbnail because it's pretty integral for a work of passion. You can use literal stick figures for thumbnails and draw it with Crayola crayons, the point is to understand what's being drawn where and how. It's the directorial component.
>>81733861
Terrible example, the FLCL manga doesn't stand on its own or make any fucking sense without having seen the show.
t. Someone who just read the FLCL Omnibus for the first time 2 days ago
>>81733856
>this is the 21st century
Exactly you fucking retard. People believe in godly gifts 200 years ago.
Drawing and writing are skills like any other, developed by observation and application.
No one is born an artists. If you can draw well while young is because you started at a very young age.
No one is born a writer. If you can write well, is because you've read a lot and applied that.
Stop making up excuses to not work hard. Apply yourself and start studying, or just fucking die already.
>>81733962
lol, yikes, pal, you ok?
>>81733954
>t. Someone who doesn't get comics writing.
Fixed.
The FLCL manga isn't good. In fact, it's a fucking mess and poorly drawn to boot. My point was that as nonsense as it is even it's scripting can easily be broken down, understood and analyzed. Try actually looking at the page; you have a clear progression laid out, setup and punchline, opening and closing, camera angles and level of focus change, etc. If we had a pure text script of just this page, we could "understand" it without greater context and make judgements about its effectiveness.
>>81733996
He takes everything literally and responds to every shitpost vaguely directed at him, even in the HYW thread.
Just ignore it.
>>81733925
>Maybe mathematics and logic but that still requires a great deal of instruction
Even that is all about predisposition. For some kids math "clicks" earlier, and they just get it. Until it clicks for you though, you just gotta keep trying. Like drawing, sewing, painting or sculpting, it WILL eventually click, your brain WILL eventually shift and see numbers in a different way than before, but you gotta give it time.
The problem is that people expect immediate results, instead of working their asses off.
Pic related is some guy from /ic/. If this doesn't make you hyped as fuck to learn and become a master at your craft, than just give it all up and settle down.
>>81733996
I just get mad when people blame their laziness on lack of talent.
>>81734078
The what now? I don't even draw myself, I just hate people whining when it's literally as easy as just DOING.
>>81734116
It's really not that easy for some people, though. Like, specifically, you aren't wrong; if you do anything long enough, you're bound to get good at it. The problem is that a lot of people have trouble sticking to things, especially if they don't see results.
Again, I'm not saying that's a good thing; but it really isn't "easy"
>>81733925
>You do not come out of the womb being a good writer, artist or etc.
No, you come out of the womb with an increased potential to be a good writer, artist, or whatever. It's true that if you don't fulfill that potential through training, etc, you will never be good, but someone without that potential will never be equally good, whether they're lazy or work their asses off.
>>81733962
See above, to be honest. It's funny that you don't use athletic examples, because they're the ones that most clearly show the importance of genetics.
>>81732186
Don't give up OP.
Goethe started working on Faust in 1772 and didn't finish the thing until 1832 when it was published posthumously. That's 60 years you've got to polish the thing and achieve literary immortality.
>>81734149
> The problem is that a lot of people have trouble sticking to things
Which is itself also a genetic predisposition. So whether you work hard and apply yourself or lack the attention to focus on something is also genetically motivated, which shows how full of shit the other guy is, lmao!
>>81734226
>It's true that if you don't fulfill that potential through training, etc, you will never be good, but someone without that potential will never be equally good, whether they're lazy or work their asses off.
Literally has never been proven. Predisposition does not mean "genetically enhanced", it means you're simply prone to learning that quicker than someone else. After you got it, though, you'll reach the same plateau as anyone else. You don't have "Enhanced Drawing", you just might learn how to draw faster or earlier than someone else.
> It's funny that you don't use athletic examples, because they're the ones that most clearly show the importance of genetics.
It's funny I don't use a physical skill as an example of a creative skill? Wow, yeah, it's fucking hilarious.
>>81734278
Why are you just making stuff up?
Unless you have an attention deficit disorder, or autism, your ability to focus on your work is completely based on how you were raised.
if you were a motivated child, you'll keep being motivated when you grow up probably. If your parents never encouraged you to keep up with a hobby, like drawing or writing or soccer, you'll probably be a slacker in those areas, even if deep down you really like them.
Seriously, genetics is nothing compared to external influence. It's an excuse to make people feel better about being shit at things.
>>81734384
>tfw have ADD
>tfw the medication i'm taking only seems to help for short periods of time
>tfw basically can't concentrate on anything despite repeated attempts at cultivating discipline
just shoot me
>>81734427
Don't worry man, I haver ADD too. Just try to set 90 minutes aside every other day for being productive/studying.
90 minutes away from the computer, sitting on a desk, with some papers and a pencil laying in front of you. No stress, no obligations, no nothing. Turn off your phone, and start working. The first few minutes will be frustrating, your brain will be on fire, but it WILL pass. Even if you don't end up doing much the first few times, keep doing it. Eventually you'll condition yourself. That's how I did.
>>81734317
> After you got it, though, you'll reach the same plateau as anyone else
1.Your assumption that everyone can learn the same skill to the equivalent standard on the basis of time and effort is simply wrong; given equal time and effort someone who lacks an additional finger will never play guitar or paint as well as someone with an equivalent mastery with that additional finger. There is no fundamental difference, just one of subtle degrees and cultural factors, when it comes down to a genetic level of difference.
>>81734384
>your ability to focus on your work is completely based on how you were raised.
Which is just to say that your ability to focus is determined by the effect of your parent's combined genetic predispositions (most principally) and additional cultural and societal influences (secondarily) on you.
>>81734384
>genetics is nothing compared to external influence.
All the external influence in the world will not help a paraplegic cripple compete against full-bodied athletes in the olympics.
>>81734498
Missing an entire fucking finger goes a bit beyond simple genetic variance you dumb fucking cunt.
I'm talking about healthy, able-bodied humans with no disorders.
>>81734528
WOW NO FUCKING SHIT
>>81734492
i've been doing that more recently, albeit with less time allotted. it has helped a little bit
>>81734498
>additional cultural and societal influences (secondarily)
And, in fact, these are really genetic in basis as well, because the guys who were born with bigger muscles and quicker reflexes were the guys who beat the shit out of the other tribes in prehistory and led to the formation of the societies and nation states we inhabit now, which provide the forms of education and training to artists that they do. So, in fact, everything is escapably genetic, whether you like it or not.
>>81734569
Try it with 90 minutes.
It's the perfect time slot, especially if you have ADD.
It gives you about half an hour to calm down and start getting into the mood, and an hour of actual production.
ITT:
/co/ spouts pseudo-scientific pop psychology bullshit to justify being lazy NEETS who never work for anything they want.
>>81734580
>Source: anon's rectum
I wish you guys would actually read and study instead of making shit up and basing your arguments on what you THINK makes sense, but alas, I don't really give a shit.
>anyone can be an astronaut, you just need to focus real hard and work for a long time!
>anyone can be an olympic athlete, you just need to focus real hard and work for a long time!
>anyone can be a navy seal, you just need to focus real hard and work for a long time!
>anyone can be a rocket scientist, you just need to focus real hard and work for a long time!
>anyone can be a talented artist, you just need to focus real hard and work for a long time!
It really just shows the lack of respect and appreciation you have for the masters of the trade, to be honest.
>>81734631
That's all literally true, though.
The "masters of the trade" themselves confirm this, ya fucking cunt.
>>81734654
Okay, show me a present-day quadruple amputated navy seal, astronaut or athlete, or a rocket scientist with parkinson's.
It really is mark of incredible vanity of someone's part to think they can do something that is reserved for miracles of nature just by putting in a few hours a day.
It takes much more humility to admit that there are many, many things that you will never be good at no matter how much you try.
>>81734631
Literally all those have to undergo months to years of training to even begin to do what they do though you absurd retard
>inb4 someone points out subjectivist art or some other product of cultural stagnation in response
>>81734756
You're pulling nonsense out if your ass. Nobody is talking about bullshit like crippled marines.
You do realize you're basically calling yourself retarded, right? "PEOPLE WITH SERIOUS BRAIN PROBLEMS CAN'T DOX, THEREFOR NEITHER CAN I!"
>>81734756
Yes, you're right, a man without legs will never run as fast as me.
You have proven that artistic skill in the end is all about your genes.
You did it again anon, you've proven the world you're a complete fucking imbecile.
If only you were born with the talent for not being a fucking jackass!
>>81734756
>It really is mark of incredible vanity of someone's part to think they can do something that is reserved for miracles of nature just by putting in a few hours a day.
>It takes much more humility to admit that there are many, many things that you will never be good at no matter how much you try.
>I am incredibly lazy and everyone who says I should be doing something with my life are egotistical SHITLORDS"
ftfy
>>81734799
>Literally all those have to undergo months to years of training to even begin to do what they do though you absurd retard
Never denied that being an astronaut or athlete or anything like that takes an intense amount of training, but you simply can't train someone who's genetically inferior into the role.
If what you're saying is true it should be simple to provide me with counter-examples to the above point.
>>81734809
>You have proven that artistic skill in the end is all about your genes.
Show me one single element of artistic skill that does trace its basis ultimately back to genetics.
>>81734869
>but you simply can't train someone who's genetically inferior into the role.
What the fuck does that even mean?
If you're talking about disabled people, then hurr fucking durr, obviously.
And obviously that's not what is in question in this thread. We're talking about able-bodied, healthy humans being able to reach the same level of skill in creative skills through dedication and study.
Like that's not even a theory, or opinion, that's literally how it is, in real life, right now.
Are artists really so fragile that they can't handle something as basic as the concept of talent? Some people are predisposed to being better at different things. It's not a big deal.
>>81735119
It's just a bunch of fags who can't draw getting pissed off at anybody suggesting that they might never be great at art.
>>81735119
Mention talent near a good artist and he'll probably give you the same talk you're seeing here.
The best artist I know would probably yell at you if you as so much as implied that his craft is a fruit of innate talent.
Not that someone like you who never worked hard to perfect a craft would understand;
>>81735170
More like a bunch of retards who never tried to get better at anything spouting pseudo-scientific nonsense.
>>81735201
>Mention talent near a good artist and he'll probably give you the same talk you're seeing here.
Does that mean we get to blow up at them just as hard if they mention they don't think they'll ever be good at math/programming etc. or is this a fragile-artist only thing?
>>81735233
WAHHH ABLOOBLOOBLOO
>>81735247
>>81735265
(You)
>>81735119
People in general are too fragile to handle that anymore. Every rich is "self-made", every tall dude with a handsome face gets laid all the time because of his "personality". People are little pussies who can't handle the idea that their success was handed to them.
>>81732186
I'll do it, black and white, $10 for a page provided you don't go fucking crazy.
https://www.furaffinity.net/user/salkafar
There is some of my shit. I don't just draw furry.
>>81735336
I wouldn't say success was handed to someone so much as they just happen to be better at some things than others. Some people are naturally better drivers than others, but with enough practice almost everyone can become reasonably competent. Same seems true for any other skill, and it seems a bit strange to wall off art specifically into this corner where everyone is exactly as good as it as everyone else and the only difference was manhours spent.
>>81735336
Wow, really opened my eyes to the harsh truth of the world.
I mean, it's not so much talent as an innate interest which makes you more willing to put in the time and effort. Also it's hard to play catch up because most good artists have been putting in the hours since childhood or at least adolescence, and if you start in adulthood it's harder to devote the same amount of time as someone who has been developing the same interest their whole life. That's what talent is.
>>81735344
Yeah I dont trust furies to draw my shit
>>81735344
is this will laren as a furry?
>>81735442
>le silly hat maymay
>>81735408
That's informal conventional wisdom. Manhours is LITERALLY what separates masters from "competent" people.
This isn't something people made up, this is science. It takes thousands of hours to become a genius at a craft.
Fucking Mozart studies endlessly for over 10 fucking years before producing any of his famous pieces
Go fucking study about the process of learning instead of spouting this informal wisdom bullshit.
>>81735468
>I mean, it's not so much talent as an innate interest which makes you more willing to put in the time and effort.
Also they need to have just the right combination of caring too much vs not enough in order to git gud. Artists who care too much burn out eventually and just can't produce, the ones who don't care enough stagnate and become Dobsons and Buckleys. Being a good artist is about perseverance more than being a prodigy, but that doesn't mean that it's something anyone can do.
>>81735594
>Fucking Mozart studies endlessly for over 10 fucking years before producing any of his famous pieces
Okay. And what does your retard mind think of the hundreds of thousands of people who studied for 10+ years and never became famous?
>>81735594
>It takes thousands of hours to become a genius at a craft.
I'm not sure where I said otherwise. Can you link me to any study that says "every single person learns exactly the same, same rate same ease etc, no variation between people exists" because I would be interested in reading it.
>>81735653
Fame =/= Skill
I'm talking about getting good, not famous.
Luck and networking is what gets you famous, not skill.
>>81735693
I'm not saying everyone learns at the same rate. I'm saying if you try hard enough, you WILL get there, unless you have a disability.
>>81734892
I would posit you're missing the gene that lets humans detect sarcasm.
>>81735808
>I'm saying if you try hard enough, you WILL get there, unless you have a disability.
So, in other words, with varying amounts of practice depending on the factors inherent to the person, almost anyone can get to the level of reasonably competent? So what I said?
>>81735929
>reasonably competent
No, you can get good. As in actually good.
As in a master in your trade.
You just need to practice, there's literally no other way.
If you don't practice, you'll never be a master at it, and if you practice long enough, you will definitely get there.
It's not a MAYBE situation: if you practice for years, you WILL get super good at that thing, as long as you're constantly challenging yourself and actively learning from your experience.
Many people just reach a plateau and stay there. It's hard to leave that plateau once you get there, but it's definitely not impossible.
>>81733766
You can draw all day, every day and still have your stuff look like One did it.
Let Anon get the help he desperately needs instead of dumping even more impossible goals on his lap.
>>81736089
Are people who drive for hours everyday reasonably competent or masters?
In any case, the fact that you keep on addressing points I never made makes me think that you aren't actually arguing with me, but are having a generalized conversation you've had before. I'm guessing the "talent doesn't exist!" thing is just a huge overreaction by people who want to emphasize that they practiced like any other skill? That's a bit more understandable even if it still comes across as a little silly.
>>81734618
P much.
Having ADD doesn't mean you're incapable of applying yourself, it means you're predisposed to getting distracted and mulling over things. Shit, it's not even a bad thing if you want to get into art as long as you stop using it as an excuse, it just means you're more likely to second guess things and shift focus while creating. ADHD in particular can actually be kind of a GOOD thing for an artist if you don't sit on your ass, depending on the level of severity.
>>81733766
You can draw all day, every day and still have your stuff look like One did it.
Let Anon get the help he desperately needs instead of dumping even more impossible goals on his lap.
>>81734079
"Clicking" doesn't really mean anything and it doesn't mean just because part of it "clicked" that you will only get better.
Programming clicked really fucking early for me and for a while things seemed to be fine. But then Object Oriented programming kicked in and even after 10 years I still haven't gotten the hang of it, not even in C++ or Java or anything at all.
So I gave up on programming altogether, it was a waste of money and time that could have been better spent not doing anything at all. At least I would have some leftover money not wasted into getting in debt to pay off college.
>>81736214
>Are people who drive for hours everyday reasonably competent or masters?
Are they practicing their driving? Or are they just driving to work and back? Because the latter is the same as just doodling on your notebook for hours every day. You're not actually studying drawing, you're not actually getting better at anything.
>, the fact that you keep on addressing points I never made makes me think that you aren't actually arguing with me
What points are these? I'm literally just rebutting the points you've made.
Everything I've said so far can be backed by half a minute of googling, while all the arguments supporting "natural talent" are based on literally thing.
Find me one article supporting the idea that people with predisposition hit higher highs and I'll fold.
>>81735481
Oh. Well, good luck with that noose, then.
>>81735541
I do not understand that reference.
>>81735119
Levels of predisposition aren't the same as full on can/can't. It's actually the opposite of what you're describing; artists fear being told that their mediocrity is more of a result of their poor work ethic than fate. It's way easier for an artist to swallow that someone was just born gifted than to admit failure.
>>81735344
Your panel work is atrocious, I'm not surprised you're this desperate, and I feel terrible for anyone with standards so low that they would pay for this instead of taking an art crash course.
>>81736394
>So I gave up on programming altogether, it was a waste of money and time that could have been better spent not doing anything at all.
So you're literally just someone who gave up and is now mad about it?
Thanks for proving my point.
Do you honestly think some people are born with an innate talent for fucking programming? You just needed to fucking study more, ya lazy bastard.
>>81736466
Fucking this.
Predisposition is literally just a PRE DISPOSITIOIN.
You're inclined to learn something earlier and faster than someone else, but once you hit those basics, it's all about working hard, baby.
Tell a shit artist he needs to study more a particular suject, he'll find a dozen fucking excuses. "It's just my style", "I just can't", "I focus on other stuff".
Tell a great artist he has a gift for drawing, and he'll give you a lecture on busting ass.
>>81732186
You could start with it looking very shitty. If it's interesting people will come anyway and you can redraw/hire someone to redraw/have someone approach you with proposition to redraw One Punch Man style later.
>>81736639
isn't homestuck also kind of like this?
>>81736661
Homestuck is literally just drawing slightly above stick figure level, taking Google image search results, and mashing them together.
>>81736567
>panel work
Not him but I'm curious what's wrong with it. It's just boxes and stuff, why us that bad?
>>81736710
well, yeah, and people flocked to it, and now he's got people drawing the comic for him at this point
>>81736583
I don't understand why you think your "point" has any scientific basis. It's just motivational shaming. You're screeching "LMAO YOU'RE BAD AT THING BECAUSE YOU SUCK NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE BAD". As someone who is naturally good at math, I can assure you that there are people who are naturally bad at math. I see no reason why any other subject would be different. You yourself admit the existence of learning disabilities, but then adopt a philosophy that not only denies their existence but actively shames those who have them.
You just come across as a stupid asshole looking for reasons to shit on random people.
>>81736567
Well, don't. They seem happy enough.
Desperate I am not. Not for business. How desperate are you for someone to draw?
Or are you really going to take an art crash course?
>>81736583
>Tell a great artist he has a gift for drawing, and he'll give you a lecture on busting ass.
This. If you aren't consistently tearing apart your own work, you're a poor creator in any media.
>>81736782
at the same time, don't be too harsh on yourself, like i am. you'll end up despising your own work, and never wanting to do anything, because you constantly second guess it.
it's a very, very fine line
>>81736583
>Tell a great artist he has a gift for drawing, and he'll give you a lecture on busting ass.
What the fuck would he know? What does he have to compare his own experience to? Of course he's going to say to work hard, that doesn't mean working hard is a guarantee of anything.
>>81736583
>You're inclined to learn something earlier and faster than someone else, but once you hit those basics, it's all about working hard, baby.
>Tell a shit artist he needs to study more a particular suject, he'll find a dozen fucking excuses. "It's just my style", "I just can't", "I focus on other stuff".
So it literally is just an overreaction to annoying people? The frustration is understandable but there is no reason to go overboard. For example, people with schizophrenia tend to be employed in creative fields and their non-affected siblings are also over-represented compared to the general populace. This suggests a genetic component to creativity.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/199/5/373
With the programming example, nobody is born a great programmer, but they are born with different abstract reasoning abilities and so on that do affect ease of understanding. If a software engineer had to deal with "I'm not a computer person, you're so talented" as a way of minimizing the amount of study the engineer invested I'm sure they would also jump on the talent doesn't exist train, but that doesn't really excuse it.
![[bombs internally].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/YDyUKig.jpg "[bombs internally].jpg")
>>81736725
>it's just boxes and stuff
If you really think that then you will never understand what makes a good comic and more importantly how to make one.
Panels are what makes comic work. It's not words, it's not art. It's the correct sequence, framed in a way that makes the viewer "read" it and not feel like the page is a disjointed mess.
ITT: A probable Trump-voter reads a study about manhours and misinterprets it to mean that a literal retard can become Da Vinci if he tries hard enough. Cue several rambling posts of rude tryhard bullshit.
>>81736747
"Shaming" people? Jesus, grow the fuck up, you weak excuse for a man.
I don't think what I'm saying has a scientific basis, I KNOW it does. It's part of what I'm majoring in, you retard.
Predisposition gives you a headstart in observation. You realize how certain things work faster or earlier than most other people. Application is entirely up to the subject.
Only through constant observation and application do we better our abilities. And you WILL get better.
Someone who "drives for hours every day" isn't really observing and applying anything new. If he was, you bet your weak-bellied ass he would be getting better at it.
This isn't something I'm making up to make people feel bad about themselves, this is fucking basic 20th century psychiatry.
>>81736848
>that doesn't mean working hard is a guarantee of anything.
It isn't. You have to work smart too. If you keep doing the same stuff over and over again and glossing over the hard stuff, you'll end up painfully mediocre or worse.
How do I stop myself from letting the story get away from me? I keep writing detail stuff that I could easily summarize and expand on later, and I only have like, one fucking character even written. Plus, I've mostly neglected to keep the central theme and plot of the story in mind, and keep forgetting about it as I write.
How do I stop doing this, other than to stop having autism?
>>81736948
>"Shaming" people? Jesus, grow the fuck up, you weak excuse for a man.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
You're such an oblivious retard. Holy shit. I stopped reading here. Grow up and get back to me when you're a complete failure at the age of 40 because you thought you start your own business with gumption and grit.
>>81736848
>everyone who busted their ass became a good artists
>every good artist busted their ass
HMMMMMMMM I WONDER
WHAT
MIGHT
THIS
MEAN????
>>81736948
>I don't think what I'm saying has a scientific basis, I KNOW it does. It's part of what I'm majoring in, you retard.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL what the fuck worthless major are you going for?
>,baby
>you weak excuse for a man.
>you bet your weak-bellied ass
Check out this young conservative adopting the speech mannerisms of ye olde Duke Nukem. This is funny because it's like the male equivalent of how white nerdy tumblrinas talk like niggers because they think it gives them an air of authority.
>>81736912
I'll have to add that to the group of things that I need to work on for comics I guess. Thank you
>>81737005
>every good artist busted their ass
No one is arguing this point. Everyone agrees that this is true.
>everyone who busted their ass became a good artists
This is the part that is wrong and makes you look like an idiot.
Why is this hard for you? Do you have a learning disability?
>>81736984
Just write everything down. Everything.
To assemble the puzzle you need to set down the individual pieces first, the order doesn't matter. Eventually everything will fit into place. Don't think of the story linearly, think of it as something you'll constantly go back and forth changing the interchangeable parts.
>>81734654
Very Obviously NOT. Every astronaut has to be Captain fucking America before even factoring that they also need to be rocket scientist to even land a nomitation for the job.
>Decent writer
>Won a few writing contests
>Getting published in a lit mag
>Reading voraciously, always trying to improve
I can only get a few pages in before I burn out. How do you guys do it? All I want to do is produce something complete, something creative, for myself and others.
>>81737114
It's not wrong though. Everyone who puts their observations and studies into practice will learn from it.
If you didn't learn, then you weren't actually observing it.
Maybe you need a different approach, a different mindset, but you WILL learn something eventually as long as you're actively trying.
The problem is that most people reach a certain level, and then when they can't get past it they get frustrated and give up instead of pushing on.
Maybe it's more comfortable to stay at the level you currently find yourself in, maybe you have no real stakes in it so giving up isn't a big deal. But it's not because you COULDN'T, it's because you wouldn't.
>>81732186
Just draw op, I know how it feels, but just draw, I've been making shitty comics and "animations" just to make the depression go away.
>>81737114
>>81737077
I think these two points are related. Maybe to even bother investing all the time required to get good, you need to believe that it will inevitably pay off in the end, and if it didn't seem to for someone that person was just weak. Working without a light at the end of the tunnel, with the knowledge that you might still turn out mediocre instead of a master, would be stressful as shit.
>>81737120
i guess so. it's just been frustrating me that i still can't quite nail things down to the point where things are internally consistent.
but that makes me feel better
>>81737378
Don't worry, man. The important thing is to keep doing it and then figuring out what's working and what isn't. Don't be afraid to get feedback on your shit, too; it's super important for your growth.
>>81736848
Yes, it is. Jesus. what kind of work ethic is that?
>>81737421
do you have any recommendations on where to get some good feedback? i love to shitpost on 4chan and all, but it's usually like 1% good feedback and 99% garbage. although admittedly the 1% is usually the best you'll find anywhere
i don't wanna share anything with my friends because, well, i want them to read it and be surprised, if i ever finish it
>>81732186
>have the artistic talent to tell the stories you've thought up for the last decade
>have no time to do it because being an adult sucks
>responsibilities and even friends consume life and freetime
>could have easily pulled it off as a kid, even tried to, but didn't have any of the artistic abilities back then
Well fuck me..
I'll figure something out thougheven if I have to live as a goddamn hermit.
>>81737464
People on /lit/ do that frequently, at least they did when I went there. Lurk that board for a few weeks, while producing more stuff, and then probably you'll find a thread about sharing your own work and having it rated by other writers.
>>81737527
shit, /lit/ is actually good? never been there myself
i'll get lurking, thanks anon
>>81736583
Yes I am mad at it and I will always be mad at it. It was the only thing I was ever good at and it turned out I wasn't doing great.
Ten years is not enough? Should I have gone for 20? Woot! I'll be 38 then and be able to program in C++ lot's of amazing opportunities will be waiting for me at that day.
>>81737483
If you have time to post on 4chan, you have time to draw.
Admittedly, it's less effort to post on 4chan, and it's hard to get into stuff if you're exhausted, physically or mentally, from work and other obligations. But still, get to it, anon!
>>81737608
>If you have time to post on 4chan, you have time to draw.
Good point, though occasionally checking message boards and other dumb internet stuff might take up an hour/ hour and a half at most. That's not even 1/5th of the time it takes me to finish a single picture. I was never good a speed. I honestly dread to see how long it takes me to do entier comic pages... still, you're right. I, and others like me won't make any progress if we don't sacrifice more chunks of our time. It might just have to be a 'little by little' endeavor.
>>81736725
Take a look at this.
We have six identical boxes. Not a big deal if we're trying to convey something simple or making a point with them or otherwise running a really tight ship here and using that equality to its fullest, but we've got more complex movement going on here and a joke that's not just three beats like Peanuts.
The actions are conveyed with very little thought. Leopardman kneels down and sits by Raccoonfuck, but since we have equal panels and the "cameraman" is EXCLUSIVELY trained on Leopardman and straight up kneels down with him, we have absolutely no focus. Actions have no weight or emphasis, body language is stiff, all movement takes place between panels, and there is no focus on anything. The Raccoon's reaction is the punchline but he's not even the focus of the last panel at all, he's given as much attention as the Leopard. There's no flow, no guiding the audience visually, nothing, and he has the gall to basically just draw the Leopard in the exact same poses with his lower body off frame for half the comic for no other reason than drawing sitting is hard.
This is terrible, terrible composition that ignores the most basic rules of visual storytelling and nobody should pay for work of this quality.
>>81732186
I know people are picky when it comes to art
But if the story is written well enough some people don't care how it looks
One punch man is the best example of this
One is a terrible artist who has gotten better since he first started. His comics are written well enough to catch the attention of an artist who is now updating the current story.
All I'm saying is if your confident enough in your writing then do it
>>81737814
That's because I don't draw these like comic pages.
>>sigh<<
This thing started as a porn comic. It.. degenerated into... drama? Romance?
But, I will take your criticism aboard. I will. Any improvement is welcome.
And no, I am not very good at this, which is why I am cheap!
>>81737858
I love OPM but I'm not entirely certain it's a great example. Mob Psycho 100 is probably better.
>>81737937
Yeah just remembered mob psycho after I pressed submit
>>81737814
Also he's not a leopard. You can tell by the spots: they're dots, not rosettes.
>>81736984
1.Are you starting where the action begins? Nothing wrong with a bit of backstory or flashbacks, but you need to start by introducing your characters, setting, and a conflict. Don't spend hundreds of pages getting there, don't jump in deep and then have all the core story happen in the past (unless that's your goal), just start with a hook.
2. Combine characters and try to condense while offering an interesting sequence. We don't need four mentors if you can just have one.
3. Can you tell the story in a novel's length? If you feel the need to split the story up into distinct works (like "episodes" or "book one") you should either cut the fat or make each one a COMPLETE story in its own right.
>>81732404
Go network, make some friends. You'll never get what you want through for-hire artists on the internet
>>81737903
>That's because I don't draw these like comic pages.
That has absolutely nothing to do with my post, and if you're in this state of mind my criticism can not help you.
Graphic novels, news strips, webcomics, flash cartoons, animatics, photo blogs, fuck even travel brochures, it doesn't matter. Composition is the heart of media and matters. What you're "drawing it like" isn't what matters, what matters is your ability to assess what you're conveying and how effectively you communicate it.
You're not getting upset, and that's good, but you can't progress if you excuse things arbitrarily. You don't even have to take my advice, just get rid of non-logic like that and actually open yourself up to trying to understand your own work. Why did I put this here, how clear is this, why do I notice repetition here, that kind of stuff. What I have to say isn't going to help, you have to start by understanding your mistakes, recognizing them and grasping why they're problems, rather than working off the suggestions of others. Otherwise it's pointless because you're not building understanding.
>>81738099
You can just email pro artists with your pitch and details. That's how Nathan Edmonson got his start and he's making money to this day off crappy writing backed by gorgeous art.
>>81738538
I will take your criticism to heart. I was so happy that I was producing stuff (which is not a given) that I was not paying attention to quality - or not enough.
The "I don't draw these like comic pages" means I draw panel by panel. Separately.
>>81738538
...I guess I'll have to get 'Understanding comics'.
>>81740804
It's a good resource to start with, but you'll want to also pour over books you love and try to dissect them. People underestimate just how much matters in a comic.
This thread is needlessly hostile, but making your own comics is fun.
>>81737937
Mob Psycho 100 is written by One anyways so it's all the same, as far as examples to look to for this kind of thing go.
Speaking of which, is Mob Psycho 100 any good?
How do you get the will to do art? Whenever try to draw I see at how bad it is and I cry and give up, how do I get past this?
>>81741901
I know, that was my point, you dope.
>>81742056
Draw something that's fun to draw. Surely there's SOMETHING you like to draw, right? Do you like doodling video game stuff or something?
Do that, and balance that catharsis with drawing and practicing basic shapes and figures. Once you become confident in your circles and triangles and what have you, start looking up art resources to help you understand construction.
>>81737858
ONE is a terrible example because he's a one of a kind exception and nobody would have cared about OPM if Murata had not redrawn it.
In the reality of things you have actual professionals doing webcomics right now, putting lots of work into eye-catching art and trying really hard to make things as appealing as possible to their target public.
Starting a webcomic with bad art -right now- is a guarantee of failure unless you have a massive fanbase built up from the days of webcomics' inception.
>>81732186
just draw dude, even if it is shit.
>>81743332
impressive
>>81743673
it was either not make it or kill myself.
i've been wanting something of this, but i know it's just going to be edgy cringe shit.
>>81743673
>>81743789
actually, you know what?
maybe i'll make a shitty comic right now of katana fedora
>>81743884
>>81744719
Continuing cringe comic
>>81732186
>Used to love writing
>get horrible writers block
>finally manage to overcome it by writingfapfics
I honestly don't know how to feel
>>81745412
more
>>81745505
>>81746545
is this loss
>>81746786
>loss
what's that?
i'm still doing this
>>81745489
Seems to work for Tina Belcher.
Athough I suppose in her case it's shlickfic.
>>81746982
Loss is a manifestation of the Hypercrisis. It just appears, like a crystal forming in a solution. Which also produces cyanide.
>>81747960
oh you mean that shitty meme
>>81748198
There is a word too many in that sentence.
>>81748249
well, uhhh when i'm done make something just for you.
>>81748301
Thanks.
>>81748361
how about now
i'm not really good at this but
>>81746545
update for the crap
Go with a minimalist style and fake it until you make it. You can always go back and re-draw pages, but right now, the important thing is to get the pages out.
>>81742226
You forgot the part where your art is gonna suck balls for the first year or two.
This is the best possible art I am capable of
>>81754148
damn...bro that's... deep...
>>81754203
it's an autobiography
>>81743086
One is a perfect example
He has two series one has been animated
The other just got picked up to be animated
