Why was this run so loved? Not trying to start shit, just want to have a conversation about it, can we?
Here's my problems with it, because I think the premise is strong, the execution is just poor. First of all, you're thrown right into the fray with this and Selina's already a mob boss for at least a few months when you jump in. Second of all, you're supposed to care about these characters you've barely seen for a few issues, like, how can I believe Selina actually cares that much about Antonia? They might be "family" but it's so superficial, they didn't even know the other existed until recently. Third, it's incredibly lame to assume nobody knows she was Catwoman, even with the rebooted universe it's still hard to imagine that she was Catwoman for at the very least 3 years and her identity was never publicly revealed(despite her taking that mask off at every turn as if this is a movie and she's a big name actress) meaning she was never caught by the police in the meantime either. Fourth, some scenes are just too damn goofy to take seriously, like meeting up with Black Mask knowing it's a trap but as soon as his muscle pulls a gun she just disarms him with her shoe. Fifth, Stephanie Brown, just...Stephanie Brown. And lastly, I can believe Selina wants to save Gotham but why do the other Calabrese want to save Gotham too? Why must they all also be honorable and good people? not only is it cliche but it would've made for a better read to have Selina be the only "good" person in the title.
>first of all
It's call in media res.
>second
This is you just being a lazy reader.
>third
It's called a secret identity.
>fourth
This is Gotham where a man in a batsuit is considered the apex predator of the underworld.
>fifth
What's your problem with Stephanie bitch
>lastly
Sounds like you just want flat bad guys.
I mean it's not the best comic of all time, but it was a refreshing serious take on Catwoman with good art.
>>77414252
That's what I said, the take is interesting, the execution is lackluster, to say the least
>good art
ehhh, wouldn't say that.
>>77414304
>the execution is lackluster
The namefag said the exact opposite of that.
>>77414304
>wouldn't say that the art is good
Get your fucking eyes checked then.
>>77414341
>but it was a refreshing serious take on Catwoman
I agree with that, I even say this in the OP(is reading hard for you?) but the execution was not good
>>77414352
Nah, the coloring is excellent and does it's best to save the pencils but the people and faces aren't well drawn and the action scenes are mostly bad, The city looked good, especially under the first artist.
>>77414304
I thought the execution was pretty good, especially for Catwoman.
To address your points, I actually preferred there wasn't as shit ton of The story dedicated to exposition or origin stories. The plot and thrust of the tale was about the whole mob world, not about setting it up. I get tired of everything being obsessed with setting everything up neatly. We can understand a character is close without having to see them hanging out all the time, i.e. Bruce is quite fond of Talia historically though you don't see him interacting with her every month.
Third point, it's no sillier than nobody realizing Clark is Superman for 70 years. Suspend your disbelief for fantasy and superheroes and things, you won't enjoy stuff if you're nitpicking and obsessed with realism. You miss the forest for the trees.
Someone caring for their hometown or being sentimental about certain things doesn't make them good. I've known some gangasta criminal types irl and they're, you know, people. People who do bad shit and are you know, terrible people but also have fondness and care about certain things.
>>77414066
>And lastly, I can believe Selina wants to save Gotham but why do the other Calabrese want to save Gotham too? Why must they all also be honorable and good people? not only is it cliche but it would've made for a better read to have Selina be the only "good" person in the title.
Because they fucking live there? I mean, yea, they're criminals, but no one wants to live in a shit hole, even if its a shithole of their own making.
>>77414475
I don't want origin stories and shit like that but I just can't understand why Selina would care so much for Antonia and why Antonia would care so much for Selina. Antonia is a new character so she needs to be developed and she needs some work done on her, you can't just introduce a new character and state to your reader "okay, so these two are super duper close and they're willing to risk their lives for each other because", hell, the problem is that the two don't even have any history, they've barely known each other for a few months at best.
>Third point, it's no sillier than nobody realizing Clark is Superman for 70 years. Suspend your disbelief for fantasy and superheroes and things, you won't enjoy stuff if you're nitpicking and obsessed with realism. You miss the forest for the trees.
But this obviously doing it's own little thing in it's own little corner. I don't give a shit what Superman is doing or how magick works when I'm reading Catwoman, so why bring it up?
>Someone caring for their hometown or being sentimental about certain things doesn't make them good. I've known some gangasta criminal types irl and they're, you know, people. People who do bad shit and are you know, terrible people but also have fondness and care about certain things.
Do you seriously not find it incredibly cliche to have Selina work for the only honorable family in Gotham while all the others are just throat slicing scum? It's not that Antonia share Selina's ideal to save Gotham, it's that the characters are portrayed very black hat white hat and Selina is conveniently placed in the white hat camp.
>>77414499
>but no one wants to live in a shit hole
The other families have no problem with it.
>>77414576
If people can't peg for Clark for Superman then why would they peg Selina as the maked cat theif?
>>77414576
>but this obviously doing it's own little thing in it's own little corner. I don't give a shit what Superman is doing or how magick works when I'm reading Catwoman, so why bring it up?
Read the paragraph again, you're severly missing the point.
And no, it's not surprising that the good character and Batman's love interest is with the less evil characters. It would be very Ooc for Selina to want anything to do with the really terrible guys, she would wash her hands of the whole affair rather than work with the really shitty people.
I enjoyed the run and thought it was excellent, especially when you contexualize it and realize it's a Catwoman book. was it some revolutionary realistic take on the mob scene or noir comics? No. Was it a great little noir crime story where Catwoman got to be more than she usually is? Yup.
Also there's more to good art than drawing expressions. Catwoman had great mood and atmosphere.
>>77414690
Because she had to have been caught and unmasked and because she takes off her mask often anyway. And because, as I said, if something dumb happens in a different comic, why does it have to impact another comic? that's just stupid thinking.
>>77414576
Why would the fact that Selina would associate with like mided people be a cliche?
>>77414715
>And no, it's not surprising that the good character and Batman's love interest is with the less evil characters
Elaborate. Please. Catwoman only recently found out she was the daughter of an ex crime boss, it's not part of her backstory. And to save Gotham(and part of the motivation is that she didn't grow up with a silver spoon up her ass, she grew up on the streets, there's enough in her backstory for you to understand why she would want to save Gotham) she would be willing to work with(and deceive) anybody. It's just incredibly convenient that the Calebrese family were all respectful and genuinely good people.
>Catwoman had great mood and atmosphere
Because of the coloring.
>>77414717
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief#Animations_and_comics
When did people lose the point of stories by being obsessed with realism? It's sad.
>>77414721
Because she didn't chose to associate with these people. She didn't hand pick them, they just happened to be like minded.
>>77414785
>series is rooted in realism
>tries it's best to be realistic
>occasional wacky shit because lol there's a different series that's so fucking wacky and we had to be too
fucking tone, how does it work?
>>77414780
I mean the colouring is all part of the art, and the series also had wonderful layouting.
>>77414830
Meh, layouts are nothing special and the coloring is done by a different guy than the pencils. It's just sloppy or unfinished or...whatever you want to call it. It's not necessarily bad art, certainly passable, but with so many good artists working in the industry, it's hard to call this "good"
>>77414817
>rooted in realism
Wrong right off the bat. The story is definitely grounded but it's still about Gotham and her freaks.you might as well bitch about Batman's tone too.
>>77414817
That's not a great example of tone, as the series isn't particularly wacky at any point. Suspension of disbelief doesn't have anything to do with it being about Superman, it's just an example. It's a mob story that takes place over, like, a year. It isn't part of the story that anyone saw her without her mask and who knows, maybe some random did, but being furious that it isn't covered and ignoring the story by being obsessed with the fact that it didn't happen isn't being unable to enjoy the story on any level because of that is pathetic imp
Also like I said contexualize it. It's Catwoman not some Standalone Image crime lord story.
>>77414878
I'm starting to think you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
>>77414798
>>77414780
obviously she did choose the calebrese family because they are the lesser evil in a town filled with necessary evils, a fact that she very might've picked up growing up in Gotham's streets.
>>77414888
>as the series isn't particularly wacky at any point
It is, the shoe example is one of them. But the fact that it doesn't happen often only helps my point because the tone is serious and realistic
> It's Catwoman not some Standalone Image crime lord story
Again, this helps my point. It would work better if the story took place in the first couple of years of Batman being active.
>>77414878
That's why I said good not amazing.
Just because the colouring is carrying a lot of what make it good doesn't stop it from being good. It actually helped carry the mood and atmosphere, who cares if that wasn't the penciler? All that matters is the art actively contributes to the story and it did.
A lot of your complaints seem fixated in the idea that people think this is the best art, best story or best mafia tale. Nobody things that, people think it's one of the best CATWOMAN runs. Of course it has flaws - plenty of them, but for what it is? It's excellent.
>>77414946
But she couldn't have picked any other family other than the Calebrese even if she wanted too.
>>77414957
So because it had one semi-comedic end to a fight that pulled you out of the entire series? You're getting blue armed Sonic sad here.
>>77414969
>Nobody things that
People did, I remember loads of "this is the best thing ever" posts.
> It's excellent
but you don't actually elaborate as to why, simply saying "it's good" won't actually make it good.
As for the art, as I said, there's too many good artists working in the industry right now for me to call this good, especially since most of the heavy work is done by the colorist. It's not bad art, just not good. Serviceable.
>>77414976
Selina is a character that makes the most out any given situation.
>>77415026
You're aware colouring is part of the art, right?
Also I have plenty elaborated on how and why I enjoyed it. You need to learn to enjoy things for what they are, you're getting bogged down in petty details instead of being able to view the story as a whole and judge it that way
>>77415024
What's the point of that scene? It just takes up several pages for nothing except to have a different tone than the one you set up until then. Besides, my problem with that scene aren't just that she used the shoe, it's everything surrounding it, hell, it happening in the first place, walking into a cheesy popcorn movie style trap just to flex your muscles is lame as hell. Might as well kill Black Mask yourself right there if you're gonna be overly simple about things.
>>77415026
So this is you just being a contrarian then?
>>77415058
But this situation was favorable for her from the start.
>>77415073
Severely autistic more like, jeez
>>77415073
Ho am I contrarian? It's not a super popular run, I'm actually bringing in arguments while nobody is willing to discuss. Meanwhile you were all happy to feed the "not muhh Selina" troll for weeks.
>>77415068
That scene is there to remind the audience that Selina is a feisty badass capable of amazing feats and I don't really see how that contradicts the tone of the book.
>>77415111
>It's not a super popular run
Well now you're just lying. It's the most critically acclaimed Catwoman run in a decade.
>>77415111
You're not really bringing in arguments though. One of your points is "I don't like Stephanie Brown" and "realisticslly someone would figure out she's Catwoman".
I enjoyed the story because I liked the plot, I found the whole mafia take compelling. I enjoyed the characterization of Selina Even in such a different setting and that we get a great older DC woman who acts like it, is in control and savvy. I liked the mood and atmosphere of the book, which was further accented by the art. I thought the dialogue was crisp and interesting. I liked that it was able to explore and balance a range of moments, from dealing with Selina's emotional devastation at the loss of Bruce to more fun moments like her getting the up in Black Mask and playing him. Too often books get stuck in being all miserable or all fun, but it was able to balance both while keeping tone. I enjoyed the relationships she had with the other members of the mafia, and the further glimpses of the personalities of some of the crime lords who run Gotham. In general, as usual, I liked the fleshing out of Gotham and the whole mafia scene from a different perspective than Bruce - I have long enjoyed such things, having liked Gotham Centeal and Gotham Academy too.
There may be weak points or moments, but I'm able to enjoy the series as a whole without becoming fixated on moments here and there that weren't ultra realistic. Because what's ultra realistic about Black Mask and dressing up like a fucking cat lady in the first place?
>>77415277
Betetr arguments than "I like this" and "this is good because I say so"
>>77415339
Yeah your super great arguments of
How come they didn't spoonfeed me the early Mafia stuff?
I don't understand how people can become close without it explicitly being spelled out for me
How come nobody knows she is Catwoman in a Catwoman comic?
I don't like fun things they pull me out of realism
I hate Stephanie Brown
Why would a criminal not hate Gotham?
>>77415111
ITT:People who have been doing nothing but discussing your arguments.
>>77414475
I don't understand Batman stories. Why can't every Batman arc start with Bruce's parents getting shot?
>>77415402
>I don't understand how people can become close without it explicitly being spelled out for me
Well, yes. There's a thing called show, not tell. There's no prior history between the character anyway so you just telling me they're close is bad writing.
>>77414066
>all of that bullshit
That's what you get for reading a Catwoman book, dumbass.
>>77415432
Are you suggesting that they don't do that?
>>77415461
It is shown through their interactions. Did you even read the book?
>>77415461
Valentine isn't telling you they're close, she's showing you.
Dumbass
>>77415500
>>77415520
They barely talk, it's just a lot of internal dialogue in which she states she cares about her but you're never given reason as to why.
