Just moved to Chinatown and there's a restaurant supply store a block away. Started walking around and it's awesome in there and I'm considering buying a knife.
They had some Chinese cleavers and Japanese chef knives for really, really cheap (we're talking 12-25 bucks a pop). I'm working with some shit-tier Cutco knives and I'm thinking about picking one up. Does anyone have any suggestions on good brands to have an eye out for?
>>7546432
I have a CCK Chinese cooking knife and it's pretty good...they definitely take some getting used to but they really are amazing for their utility.
>>7546426
Been using a Chinese cleaver as my #1 for two decades. No regrets.
>>7546432
Yeah I was just looking for brands so if I see a reputable one I'd buy it. There are son shit ones but there are some that look really nice, too.
Yeah just don't. I have a $25 Chinese market cleaver I just use for taking the spines out of birds because it's not great for much else. Save up for the Japanese like previously stated, always liked Shun, MAC and Misono a lot. Never liked Global, handles are too thin and slick, that sand they use to balance them will come loose and the steel is so hard it might shatter if dropped on a hard surface.
My parents have a Chinese cleaver that they use for practically everything: Chopping veggies, fruit, and (not surprisingly) meat. It's like a decade old at this point, and they've managed to keep it moderately sharp. I think I'll try to pick up the brand name when I drop by there next.
Just find your local restaurant supply store and buy there.
knives at consumer goods stores are a rip off.
>>7546426
I love the chinese cleaver
not necessarily the size, just the blade profile
I use a small one as my no1
they are much thinner, with a finer edge
this means they are a pain in the ass to sharpen however
better for vegetables and meat
worse for fine work
>>7546702
to be frank Ifind the main benefit that they offer more quality on the cheap end of the spectrum
I have a set of globals, and some heavier mundails as well
but I find myself using he $4 chinese cleaver anyway, mainly because I can open cans with it, not be worried about dropping it
I wouldn't use it if I was a line cook, working all day with it or anything
they have notable trouble with hard vegetables like pumpkin, and the lack of a point makes some cutting (I seem to find chicken) hard
also it's a nuisance cutting herbs with a rocking motion
but they dominate potatoes, cabbage, onion
>>7546723
My main worries were the lack of point for the finer stuff, but they seem to be amazing for veggies and thin slicing stuff
I'd probably pair it with a more traditional chefs knife to take care of meats/herbs
>>7546751
yea, well that's what I do
I pair mine with a global kind of like pic related
the point, curve and thicker blade fill the square edged cleavers gaps
but I'm not a pro cook
Remember to dry the knife after washing. CCK knives are carbon steel and will rust. Good knives though.
Any opinions on J. A. Henckels?
Should I be looking elsewhere?
>>7546829
I would, my parents have them, and they're possibly the worst knives I've ever used
Use a cck as my erryday work knife, no complaints. You might have to relearn some techniques, and yes it's gimmicky, but I wouldn't trade mine for anything.
>>7546829
Henckels are a broad range of knifes (just like wusthof): mostly home kitchen shit, some alright, and a select number of high end models. I wouldn't buy them at retail cost though, since you're paying as much for the brand as you are the actual qualify of the knife (same could be said for MAC these days, and probably Tojiro very soon).
>>7546829
Pretty plain german steel (except some of the super expensive ones). Come with relatively shallow/sharp edges out of the box.
I really love the shape of the handle and the handle material of my Zwilling Motion knives (were gifts). A very pretty set of knives at least.
German > Japanese
What knives should i be looking at for a guy who spends 3 hours a day in the kitchen?
>>7547290
French > German
>>7546426
If you have a Chinese cleaver and a parring knife you won't really need anything else
>>7549157
>Japanese and German knives both have distinct advantages and it all depends on the individual.
I would agree with this:
Japanese knives tend to be thinner (and thus lighter) and made from harder steel. They cut with less effort and maintain their edge better. On the other hand, that hardness means that if you use the knife improperly you can more easily chip the edge.
European knives tend to be thicker/heavier and made with softer steel. The softer steel means that they can handle more abuse (like chopping bones) without risk of damage.
>>7549168
>They cut with less effort and maintain their edge better. On the other hand, that hardness means that if you use the knife improperly you can more easily chip the edge.
So they do or don't maintain their edge better?
I have found that german kinves, such as classic wustoff series will last for years without sharpening or even honing with regular use - while japanese knives actually require sharpening very often unless you only use them to cut sushi.. in which case we are not comparing apples and oranges anymore.
Because then we would be comparing a knife that is NEVER used to a knife that sees use every single day. Sushi chefs sharpen their knives daily or weekly in Japan and they are only cutting soft flesh of fish and vegetables.
IMO this speaks volumes about how much better german steel is for the home chef.
I have a knife block full of german steel and 1 single bevel gyuto that I use on very rare occassions. I find that I generally need to sharpen the gyuto more often than the german steel which is used almost every day.
>>7549205
Either you only cook once a month or you don't know what sharp is if you think that ANY knife can stay sharp for a year.
The reason that sushi chefs sharpen daily is because they need a highly polished edge in order to not micro-tear the meat. If you take a good gyuto and sharpen it well with a microbevel, it can go for weeks with only slight stropping provided you don't abuse it.
>>7549205
Sushi chefs sharpen their knives daily because if you don't have a razor sharp knife cut the fish it can actually affect the flavor, hence it must always be at peak levels. Regular japanese kitchen chefs don't sharpen as rigorously.
>>7546441
This. It does large scale prep easier, but if you're used to using a normal chef's knife it will take some relearning and practise before you get good.
>>7546426
I have two, one's an old(80's) American made chinese cleaver and one's the all metal meme knife by WINCO. They are my mains for everything.
You need to pick the right one, for home you want the thinnest and lightest they have, there are traditionally 6 grades, from fine vegetables to splitting cleavers, but you'll find #2 or #3 in that store. It will be about as thin as a regular chef's knife and flat, rather than wedge shaped.
for $15 or whatever they're charging, you won't regret it
>>7549168
Not really, it's all over the map. Gyuto are battle axes compared to Henckels chef's knives, really thick and chunky by comparison, but the thickest blade on the market is Wusthoff. most brands are about the same, 2.2-2.4mm thickness, but you really only find the very thin, very light chef's knives from western makers
they do use harder steel
How often do you guys need to hone your knives during prep on average?
I hone mine a couple of times a day at work if I'm doing a lot of prep but it loses that "falls through the food" level of sharp a little quick. It's still way better than the house knives but I feel like it should last longer between honings.
Are my standards way too high or is there potentially a problem with my technique somewhere?
>>7549262
Once before prep I strop on a 8000grit stone.
That's it.
>>7549262
The reason is loses the "falls through food" quickly is because when you hone, you put up a wire edge, or basically a burr. This bends real quick and goes back to not sharp. Sharpen your knife properly, remove the burr and your knife will stay sharper longer.
>>7549277
I've checked the knife and don't feel a burr though. Even looked at it with a jewelers loupe and it looks straight.
I've got a thousand grit stone, and I can get knives sharpish, but not shaving sharp. Do I need a finer stone to get any further, or do I just need to improve my technique?
>>7549327
If you sharpened the knife in that picture for the love of god just use plastic serrated knives or something
god damn
>>7549327
>holyshitsnacks
ayy lmao
what brand of stone is it and how long did it take you to fuck that blade up so epically
>>7549327
oh my god....... that blade profile... jesus
make it stop...
>>7549327
First you need to stop using a belt sander you fucking retard.
>>7549511
top hole, old man. hell of a read.
>>7549277
This is crap. Stropping does not create a bur. Stropping is like honing, it realigns the edge where it has folded over at microscopic levels.
>>7546559
>girlfriend's mom uses a Chinese cleaver for everything
>sharpens it with gravel
Not sure if badass or silly
>>7549980
That's what I suspected. Any tips? I generally try to lock my hands to the angle and very gently go back and forth across the length of the blade.
>>7550012
Usually the most common problems are that you aren't holding a consistent angle between strokes, or that you're pressing too hard. You might also need to deburr the knife after sharpening by raising the angle slightly and giving it a couple very light edge-leading strokes on the stone.
It might also be that you're just putting too obtuse of an angle on the knife. You might try something like the sharpie trick to see where you're removing metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kzGvtX-h8g
>>7550048
The angle looks like it's definitely a problem, based off that video. I'll try the sharpie thing, cheers.
>>7549876
Stropping is abrasive, of course it can create a burr.
https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/what-is-a-burr-part-2/
>>7549205
>So they do or don't maintain their edge better?
They maintain their edge better during normal use by a person who uses them correctly.
They are more fragile if you are an idiot and use them improperly.
Does that make it more clear?
>>7549234
>Not really, it's all over the map
While I do admit that was a generalization, I think that the trends are true overall.
I have two Gyutos made by Japanese makers: a Watanabe and a Glestain. Both are substantially thinner than my parent's Henckels and my roommate's Wusthof, despite the fact that they also have longer blades. While I am sure they exist, I have never seen a Western-made chef's knife that I would describe as thin. And likewise I'm sure that there are some Japanese makers creating thick-bladed Gyutos.
guys im not into comparing dick sizes i just need a good fucking knife that won't break the bank
just go with a decent german right? henckels? wustoff?
any good american knives?
>>7551689
http://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-DP-Gyutou-9-4-24cm/dp/B000UAQOUA
Or cheaper/not as good:
http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Fibrox-Straight-Chefs-8-Inch/dp/B008M5U1C2/
>>7551692
that looks pretty nice actually
Saw through a brick and then slice a tomato?
>>7551872
Any serrated knife will do that.
>>7551413
here:
http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/129/Chefs-Knives-Rated
specs for the 1/2doz top brands or so. Henckels by far the thinnest, the gyutos all on the hicker side.
my farberware and henckels are almost half the thickness of any gyuto i've seen and also of all the wusthoffs I've seen. have a Sabatier on mail order that is likewise much thinner than any gyuto I've ever picked up.
can't generalize here.
>>7546426
Any of you guys use Mora knives?
They have a good rep for being cheap yet high quality?
>>7552001
Yeah, the data there is all over the board. Henckels is not the the thinnest they have listed--it's the same as the Tojiros, and the Global is actually thinner, though I got that measurement from a different website.
I think it's a bit muddled here because they are all very small sizes. Check out the 10's and 12's and the difference gets much more pronounced.
![attachment[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/yuO29LO.jpg "attachment[1].jpg")
>>7552001
These measurements are all spine thickness and ignore thickness behind the edge, which is what really matters when cutting through soft materials.
Most gyutos are zero ground convex or have a small very small bevel at the very edge. French and german knives might be thinner overall, but they have much thicker primary bevels so you'll meet a lot more resistance when slicing.
>>7552063
this is astonishingly wrong. the gyuto is a direct copy of the classic French chef's knife in almost every regard, the lack of bolster being the main exception.
the edge geometry is just the same as all standard western chefs knives, i will get off my ass and take a picture to prove it in a few minutes.
Meanwhile, traditional Japanese knives are massively thick, heavily beveled, chisel blades with a few exceptions like the sushikiri and nagiri
>>7552133
We're not talking about traditional japanese knives. We're talking about gyutos, as per all of the knives in the link you posted.
Even in the article you linked there's no relationship between spine thickness and performance.
>>7552133
>the gyuto is a direct copy of the classic French chef's knife in almost every regard
But that's not true at all. The shape of the blade is certainly inspired by the French and German designs, but that's really about it. Thickness, bevel, sharpening angle, hardness are all different.
>>single bevel
We're not talking about traditional knives; we're talking about Gyutos.
>>7552063
Actually, if you look at the weight of the knives that becomes clear. Notice that on that list the Gyutos are all lighter than the equivalent blade size Western brand knives. Same blade length, similar handle, but a major difference in weight. That difference in weight comes from somewhere: the Western blades are thicker on average.
>>7552183
No. the gyuto is a DIRECT, FAITHFUL copy of a classic French chef's knife, without the bolster and with or without a traditional handle. I have a 1918 Henckels that looks exactly like a modern Gyuto. You can buy a Sabatier new that looks exactly like a gyuto.
>>7552198
they're fucking not. Hang on wihle I get my phone and take a picture
>>7552063
bog standard $20 farberware chef's knife edge including bent tip
>>7552063
spine at the tip
>>7552247
>DIRECT, FAITHFUL copy of a classic French chef's knife
Then why are the Japanese knives from your very own link so much lighter than the classic French design?
And why are the steel hardnesses so different, which you can easily look up on the various manufacturer's websites?
And why then do the various makers of Gyutos point out how they are thinner than their Western equivalents? For example:
http://bernalcutlery.com/japanese-knife-types
https://www.okamiknives.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/309991-Gyutos-Japanese-Chef-Knives
http://www.kataba.co.uk/how-to-choose/
>>7552063
single primary grind and compound bevel to the edge.
the SHAPE of the blades arw different between modern western knives and gyuto. the edge geometries and grinds are the same
What three knives are most important for a professional chef? After chefsknife.
>>7552265
lack of bolsters, choice of steel, handle construction.
>>7552265
>And why then do the various makers of Gyutos point out how they are thinner
marketing. promoting the GRORIUS NIPPON ULTIMATE SERPERIR SAMURAI FOLDED GORRILLION TIME MUH ANCIENT WAYZ trope.
there's actually been a trend recently of "laser gyutos" that are deliberately much thinner than traditional gyutos because people have been noticing the fairly obvious factual inconsistencies in the marketing bullshit
>>7552247
>>7552259
>>7552263
>>7552266
>still talking about spine thickness
That's not what thickness behind the edge means.
>Same edge geometry and grind.
They're really not. Pic related, it's an electron micrograph from a japanese knife company that had to redesign their blade geometry to make them more western style to suit how knives are used in the west.
>>7552266
>>7552263
>>7552259
this absolutely common $20 Farberware knife is 2.2mm thick at the heel, btw, THINNER than most top brand gyuto like MAC or Shun btw.
this knife is also: high carbon forged, distal taper ground, heat treated and cut paper out of the box. $20.
I bought it at Walmart. it's a top seller. if that can't convince you to stop smoking the weeb cock and look at the reality of cooking knives, nothing will.
Look, enjoy your weeb shit. it's pretty. It does have different performance thanks to hardness and ergonomics, if it suits you personally, roll with that. Just don't pretend it;s a)not utterly derived from western designs b)inherently superior thanks to the mystical properties of being crafted in far off lands. It's just preference and owning fancy stuff. Same as with watches and cars.
>>7552297
the first pic is the EDGE, genius.
>>7552283
>lack of bolsters
Only the Henkels and the Wusthof have bolsters; the other western knives are still heavier despite the lack of a bolster. Ergo, the bolster doesn't explain anything.
>>choice of steel
First off, that can't matter because the density of different steel alloys are virtually identical.
Second, didn't you say just a few posts ago that they were identical reproductions? And how you're admitting the steel is different? Pick one.
>>handle construction.
The handles seem pretty similar to me. Most of them are full tang riveted construction (western-style) yet there is still a major difference in weight. Also note that the victorinox is among the heavier knives despite it's lack of a full steel tang in the handle.
>>7552298
>. if that can't convince you to stop smoking the weeb cock and look at the reality of cooking knives, nothing will.
What's your point here? It's a cheap-ass knife made from stamped sheet metal. Of course it's going to be thin.
Also, who said anything about Japanese knives being better? We said that they are typically harder, lighter, and have a narrower bevel. That's not "better", that's "different". Such a knife performs better cutting soft foods, but is less tolerant of abuse and is ill suited to cutting even small bones. That's a tradeoff that may or may not make sense, not saying "lol jap stuff is the best".
I own both Japanese and western knives. Which I use is totally a matter of the application at hand. If I'm slicing veggies I'm going to grab the Gyuto. If I'm breaking down a chicken or splitting lobsters I'm going to reach for my Sabatier.
>>7552001
Stop trolling. God I can't stand people who go into knife discussions just to spread disinformation and misinformation.
If you get a set of micrometer calipers and measure the edge thickness of real gyutos vs. western chef's knives 1/32' back from the edge it will become obvious within moments that gyutos are typically a LOT thinner behind the edge.
This is not a subject for debate, this is verifiable based on micrometer measurements, which have been done, and the results of which are well known in kitchen knife forums.
So are the results of Rockwell hardness testing Japanese gyutos vs. western chef's knives, where the Japanese knives are typically a LOT harder than the western ones. Again, information that is already well known among online kitchen knife discussions.
>>7551689
Tojiro is kind of the standard for cheap VG10 knifes and easily available, so I can see that.
Fibrox has celebrity pricing for a kitchen supply store knife though. What does that offer over say Icel or Arcos?
https://youtu.be/lVCM5BfeA8c
>>7552701
No. You are, probably knowingly, spreading misinformation.
I own quite a few kitchen and pocket knives, own a set of micrometer calipers, and have reground the primary bevels on multiple knives to thin them out behind the edge to a specific desired geometry.
I have also handled a fair few Japanese gyutos and the vat majority have quite obviously thinner blade geometries behind the edge than western knives.
They also generally go to the trouble or specifying the steel choice and target hardness for their knives, unlike most western makers who often don't even specify the steel used, much less any heat treatment parameters.
That is even before getting into the typical use of stainless steels by western kitchen cutlery makers vs. The prevalence of high-hardness carbon steels amongst Japanese cutlery makers.
Also, MAC, Global and Shun are not at all representative of the geometry and performance of most Japanese cutlery makers, as they are the most western targeted brands.
Tojiro is much better, though the factory edges are nothing to write home about (though if you think ANY factory edge on a knife is sharp, you definitely need to practice sharpening...)
>>7552962
Listen, since we're just trolling each other at this point, I'm going to put an end to this right now, Aizen
>let's not do this here
bust out your micrometer and your knives and post some pics, or GTFO. i posted pics of my Walmart Chef's knife that is every bit the equal of a gyuto in geometry and blade construction, now you do the same.
put up or shut up, weeb.
>that was my blade that cut the mountain
>maxresdefault
lol meant to post the relevant pic related, but that works too
What's a good knife sharpener?
I own a Kyocera ceramic knife and a medium/good quality steel knives, which I'd like to sharpen since it's they never have been.
Naturally I want to get one that can sharpen both ceramic and steel knives. I was looking at Kyocera's own but I have little knowledge if I'm better off with a cheaper one.
http://kyoceraadvancedceramics.com/ceramic-kitchen-tools/ceramic-knife-sharpeners/ceramic-knife-sharpener.html
Seems like the sharpening rods are for steel knives only.
Any recommendations?
>>7553828
The best option is to learn how to use a whetstone.
>>7554120
I guess that's one option too.
Are there any differences between them? Or can I just get whatever? Do they work on ceramic knives just as well?
>>7553828
>not getting two of the same nife and just sharpening them against each other in a dark room while smoking a cigar.
>>7552282
I'd say paring, veg and filleting/bread.
>>7554157
You'll probably want something like a DMT diamond plate for ceramic knives. You can sharpen ceramic knives on ceramic stones as well, but it'll take longer and you'll probably wear the stone faster than you like.
Unless you're repairing damage like visible chipping you should be ok with something like a DMT extra fine, which is about 1200 grit.
>>7554181
we tried, mang. we got him to eat healthy for a little bit, we got him out of the dumps, made some cool stuff and helped him get a lil thing going, but he is just not a creature for this world. he's too beautiful for the rest of us and this sick sad place we call Earth
>>7553147
The top is a grocery store Cuisinart, the bottom is my Kohetsu 210mm gyuto in Aogami Super Blue at ~63-64 HRC.
The Kohetsu is:
0.010" thick at 1/32" behind the edge
0.035" thick at 1/4" behind the edge
0.090" thick at the spine, all measured at the heel.
The Cuisinart is 0.020", 0.050", and 0.100" respectively at the heel.
Go ahead and try and find a production western chef's knife that is 0.010" behind the edge, I'll wait.
>>7554322
put it in metric like a real person.
>>7554322
Don't bother, you're arguing with someone who thinks some blurry ass photos of a knife's edge and spine tell you anything about blade geometry.
>>7554322
> 0.010" thick at 1/32" behind the edge
I only have a set of Mitutuyo calipers, but we're not talking microns here. , Within a couple of 100s of inches my Zwilling Motion has the same, ~0.3 mm at ~1mm behind the edge.
>>7554909
Give it a break, the farberware is known to have thinness atypical of French style knives and gas been measured at 0.015 inches at the edge.
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/farberware_chef.html
>>7549157
What kind of French brands are good?
>>7554909
Which specific model of Faberware is that?
I must buy one if it offers a geometry similar to one of the most extreme laser gyutos on sale today (the Kohetsu AS 210 weighs only 4.4oz...)
>>7555096
a) thats not my knife, its an.older and even cheaper version
b) he says flat out it wasnt ground properly on one side, meaning its thicker than normal
and c) i sincerely hope you appreciate what a PITA it was to post this in the middle of making dinner
>>7555461
this one. and this is ENTIRELY my point, its not extreme, its NORMAL, and you CANNOT generalize about weeb vs non weeb knices. Henckels come even thinner. Wusthoff are crazy thick. gyutos are the same: diverse.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0051ENAQQ/
What are some good brands that offer affordable knives? For everyday cooking, meat/bread cutting and whatever. I'm not much of a chef, so I'd be looking something affordable rather than absolutely the best and most expensive that would probably be wasted on me.
Something that I can get off Ebay/Amazon preferably.
Are the brands anon mentione in >>7555643 any good? The Farberware looks good and cheap, but I know little about knives.
Anyone use a nakiri? How is it?
>>7557440
Victorinox
>>7558880
It's not 2004 anymore bro, they are overpriced now
>>7558946
>$40-45 for the 8 inch knife is expensive
>>7557440
Dexter/Russel or Mundial.
>>7559217
It is when you consider an actual good knife is like 10 bucks more
A fibrox is equivalent to any $15 generic "NSF" plastic handled knife for commercial kitchens, spending $45 for one because it was specifically endorsed by kimball is retarded
>>7546829
Henckels/Zwilling are fine German knives, (2 dudes on the knife). On the same level as Wusthof, etc. I've got several, and they're
Henckels/Zwilling International are their overpriced Chinese division (one dude on the logo).
>>7549205
Little late to this discussion, but generally knife hardiness is related heavily to the cook and style of cutting.
Western knives are generally used for chopping and rocking motions, with constant contact with surfaces and harder motions.
Japanese knives are intended for slicing(and in my experience all knives will stay sharper when used with slicing motions). If you watch videos of japanese chefs cutting vegetables compared with western vegetable cutting you might see what I mean. Hard contact with surfaces is not ideal.
A better explanation might be that western cooks tend to start their cutting motions with the tip pointed down, pushing down or forwards, finishing with the blade level or in the original position, and the knife blade making nearly full contact with the surface of the board. Whereas most asian cooks will start with the tip level or slightly up, pull through, and finish with the blade pointing down, making minimal contact with the surface, usually only at 1 or 2 points on the blade.
As far as chinese cleavers, CCK is the best, love them, I often buy some, use them at work and sell to colleagues who are intrigued by the idea of cleavers.
>pic somewhat related, my former rotation
>>7558321
I use one exclusively for vegetables. They're nice, like a small cleaver. If you cook at home and are looking for a one size fits all, I'd recommend a full size chinese cleaver, unless you have space issues. If you already have a bunch of knives, they're good additions to the collection.
