I was born and raised in the states until I was 18, then moved to Europe for university.
One of the possibly weirdest things I miss about living in America is being able to buy whatever food I wanted at almost every second of the day.
Hundreds of brands and varieties of whatever, like barbecue sauce, rather than the MAYBE 10 I can choose out of here. I never bought anything outside of my 2 or 3 favorite brands but I COULD HAVE if I wanted to.
I also miss coupons, my country doesn't do them.
I know /ck/ loves Ameribaiting but I'm being sincere.
>>7522145
I find too many choices annoying when there's really little meaningful difference among them. Stuff you actually need doesn't come branded 20 different ways - it's always the garbage tier stuff: soda, junk food, bottled sauces and dressings, breakfast cereal. Stuff no one needs to buy, ever, but having a preference for one brand over another kind of justifies the purchase, because it becomes an exercise in exerting your preference.
I sidestep that by simply never buying these kind of products. As a result I never use coupons, because they're almost always for crappy branded products I wouldn't buy in the first place. You never see coupons for onions or cabbage.
Everything you could ever want... Except a goddamn pomegranate
>>7522175
>you never see coupons for onions or cabbage.
No those are always on special or manager's discount but never coupons
>buy up all competitors
>corn products only
>illusion of choice
>>7522354
Right. The products they make coupons for are almost always garbage.
>>7522363
i think you're using the word "garbage" a little too loosely
>>7522368
Point taken. By "garbage" I mean poor quality products useless to someone who buys ingredients and cooks with them.
Let's all take a moment to remember when Boris Yeltsin visited the United States.
...In his autobiography, "Against the Grain," Yeltsin describes the experience as "shattering."
"When I saw those shelves crammed with hundreds, thousands of cans, cartons and goods of every possible sort, for the first time I felt quite frankly sick with despair for the Soviet people. That such a potentially super-rich country as ours has been brought to a state of such poverty! It is terrible to think of it."
>>7522358
You have a good point
>barbecue sauce: HCFS + smoke flavor
>soft drinks: HCFS + carbonated water
>bread: HCFS + flour and yeast
>syrup or any ice cream topping: lmao + ayy
>any cookie or cracker: enriched bleached asshole + corn syrup solids
>chips: salt licks in the shape of chips
>any frozen dessert: 100% laffin
>>7522175
While I agree that you don't need products branded 20 different ways as it often makes it harder to find the cheapest product and the more expensive ones are not any better just brand named
I agree that it isn't just shitty foods. Like for chips in America there's lays and then the store brand but for cheese there's like 10 different brands or for cans of beans there are 10 different brands
>>7523335
Disagree for my latter point lol I'm drunk
Does Europe still have only that one brand of peanut butter with the freckly ginger kid on the can?
I know your exact feel, down to the dot.
Born and raised in the states, moved to Spain a few months ago and just turned 19, I feel like I want to die when it comes to food. Unless I cook at home their shit has no flavor. I constantly find myself adding salt or spices to whatever is fed to me in a restaurant setting. Everything just tastes really plain and kind of sad.
That being said, I have a heightened appreciation for tomatoes, olive oil, oranges and jamon. Also lemons. They put lemons in practically every drink. Paella, chorizo, squid and most tapas are pretty damn good as well.
I've also stopped buying any prepackaged foods as they're always absolutely revolting-- no more frozen pizzas or microwave meals.
I do miss ranch dressing though, and macaroni and cheese. And canned/frozen foods. And being able to find rare ingredients without having to order from a specialty store.
>>7523449
>I constantly find myself adding salt or spices to whatever is fed to me in a restaurant setting.
>I do miss ranch dressing though, and macaroni and cheese. And canned/frozen foods.
Being American is like some kind of disease.
>>7523449
That hasn't been my experience with Spain's restaurants. But I've only eaten at vegan places there. I guess they need to be particularly good to survive in that niche?
>>7523449
Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to only be able to taste salt, sugar, and fat, but I'm not game to try ruining myself like that.
>>7523503
Spain isn't much better, according to diabetes statistics. But why is it so much worse than France? And how did Spain become the gayest country in Western Europe?
>>7523531
I've entirely quit added salt, and now my food is more flavorful while still tasting salty.
>>7522175
Basics like eggs and milks are literally ALWAYS coupon and I work at a fucking gas station. Enjoy paying more for less.
>>7522175
Fuck you, I have to go to a specialized store to get hotsauce that isnt tabasco
>>7523594
I found it hilarious and sad to see bottles of corn syrup in the windows of Taste of America shops.
>>7523535
To answer your question about diabetes i have a hypothesis:
1) compared to france, Spain's food is more expensive-- it costs more in the supermarkets.
2) in spain, if you walk through a supermarket, i have found - again compared to france - Spain has a much larger stock and variety of junk food; i.e chips, donuts, cookies, etc. and they are displayed more prominently.
>>7523760
¿Qué?
I was spending way less on groceries in Spain compared to France or the U.S.
>>7523797
But people aren't paid proportionally more in France?
>>7523449
>I feel like I want to die when it comes to food. Unless I cook at home their shit has no flavor. I constantly find myself adding salt or spices to whatever is fed to me in a restaurant setting. Everything just tastes really plain and kind of sad.
This happened with the Romans. Their water pipes were made out of led, which caused massive damage to their taste-buds, so they covered their food with a fermented fish sauce called garum to compensate.
American food is so processed, over salted and filled with additives and High Fructose Corn Syrup that they have destroyed the American palette. Eating real food is "bland" to them so they have to cover it with the additives they are used to in the form of ketchup and salt.
Jamie Olive oil did a show in America and every recipe he cooked for people was called bland and they heaped salt all over everything.
It is a dire situation and you end up with this poster here, a freak with a baseline so out of whack normal is an oddity.
>>7523535
>This anal pained damage control
Grow up.
>>7523554
>flavorful
Words used by morons to try and sound intelligent about food for $500.
>>7523586
Eggs and milk are extremely cheap, I don't think they are taxed as they are a basics item.
What sort of prices are we talking about with coupons? It must be pennies.
>>7524125
Maybe they were being literal? The area with the highest density of gay bars in the western world happens to be around a specific metro station in Madrid.
>>7522145
European here living in the USA.
The hundreds of brands you're talking about is a illusion of choice. Most of the time its the same thing in different bottles with different labels because there's only one or two factories in the country that manufacture it. One LIDL store has just as much product variety as a walmart grocery dept.
Why have 40 different shitty varieties of one product when you can have 5 great varieties of one product?
>>7522175
This is truth, Americans BTFO.
>>7524541
It's not intentional, it's just companies taking up market share. In a lot of cases it's the same manufacturer but different branding.
>>7523335
>for chips in America there's lays and then the store brand
In PA there's like a dozen brands of chips, including the store brand, in every store larger than a bodega. And even the store brands are pretty decent.
When I'm traveling I always feel bad for other states/countries, and it's damn near impossible to find horseradish and cheddar chips in a lot of places.
>>7522175
There are meaningful differences among products that may not mean much to you, since you only cook for yourself. Subtle but noticeable differences is the reason competition exists.
![Grocery-Store-Soviet-Union[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/J9L0F53.jpg "Grocery-Store-Soviet-Union[1].jpg")
>>7523256
Link related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWTGsUyv8IE
>>7524818
>Subtle but noticeable differences is the reason competition exists.
Nope. I do not believe the average consumer could really tell the difference between Lay's, Wise and store brand potato chips if you're comparing apples to apples (the regular ones). Brand loyalty has more to do with being accustomed to a particular product and, most importantly in this age of sophisticated advertising and branding IDENTIFYING with the product. You choose which brand you buy because you see yourself as the kind of person who buys that brand. If you don't give a fuck what people think and like to save a few cents whenever you can you buy store brand. If you think of yourself as a normal, regular person you buy whatever national brand's packaging appeals to you (or whatever you grew up eating). If you root for the home team you buy a regional brand. And if you think you're too good to eat potato chips but want some junk food anyways you buy Pirate's Booty or Smartfood popcorn. Unless you're a completely price insensitive customer, then you buy Terra chips or whatever organic puffed quinoa junk food thing masquerading as health food.
Beyond a certain point the taste of these products doesn't matter so much, because they're going to be consumed mindlessly on the couch in front of the television. What matters is that at the point of purchase the customer identified with that brand, and bought the product as a form of self-expression.
And if you really think about that it's pretty fucked up.
I much, MUCH prefer smaller shops that have everything I might need to big-ass supermarkets with aisles upon aisles of useless shit.
I don't know why but the latter just gives me anxiety. Seeing the sheer quantity of food on display then thinking about how that's the same for thousands of stores around the globe worries me.
>>7524964
Oh, and seeing how much of each shop is dedicated to shit that's nothing but bad news for your diet is sickening. I'm a thin person, but I used to be fat and I can empathize with them; having so much choice of shit to eat is very hard to resist.
>>7524541
>there's only one or two factories in the country that manufacture it
This is the key part of the post and shows that OP doesn't understand how modern manufacturing processes work.
>>7524830
This seems fake for the reason that you wouldn't build a giant supermarket when you have the stop of a few items per shelf.
That's illogical and you could do it in a normal sized shop.
>>7524947
That's a lot of projecting and no substance.
How much do you hate yourself?
>>7524964
>aisles upon aisles of useless shit.
I actively avoid these kind of stores. I rarely even go to the supermarket, because most of what's in there is crap. Luckily I have a lot of good small shops near me that have good stuff and are aggressively priced. I just give them my business. More pleasant experience to walk into a place, say hi to the familiar face behind the counter, grab exactly what you need and be done. But I'm aware most folks don't live in a place where this is even an option, so they're at the mercy of the supermarket.
>>7525093
Projecting? Do you have any idea how advertising and branding work? I have zero self loathing, but I hate the lifestyle the supermarket is trying to sell me: cereal in cold milk for breakfast, a lunchmeat sandwich for lunch, dinner of either a frozen heat and eat meal or some kind of semi-homemade concoction involving various prepared convenience products, always accompanied by a salad from a bag drowned in some kind of bottled dressing. Round things out with soda and snack food.
No thanks. I don't live in 1980's suburbia, so I sure as fuck don't want to eat like I do. I can cook, and I'm happy to do so. Just sell me ingredients and I'll cook my own food with them. I don't even want to look at whatever garbage Coca-Cola, Kraft, General Mills, Nabisco, Nestle and other makers of garbage tier food would love for me to buy. It just pisses me off.
>>7524818
The general difference is quality.
Some products, like Fishfingers, its very obvious. The highest quality is filet in batter, halfway prepared.
The lowest is bone scrape mashed together in low quality batter.
They look the same, because batter looks like batter.
And a lot of 20-30 different products is like that. And maybe 1 or 2 is proper fishfingers.
The same with hot sauce, nudles, and a lot.
>>7525238
If you're splitting hairs over quality differences of fishfingers or hot sauce you're scraping the bottom of the barrel. You could argue that one brand of TV dinner is better than another, but at the end of the day you're still eating a TV dinner.
>>7525266
Good quality Fish Fingers is okay food.
What makes it poverty trash food is what it is eaten alongside. On the top of lower quality fish fingers being a thing.
Its also a thing among hermetic food. Some are "okay", others are things that would never be on the marked.
Then there is TV dinners and premade Pasta. Things which lack a proper place on the marked in the first place.
>>7523321
You do realize that the ONLY reason corn syrup is the preferred sweetener by manufacturers is that it is easier to handle in a machine, don't you?
Liquids are simply easier to handle in a process than a granulated product. It's the difference between using a simple pump, and a gravity fed hopper that is prone to error.
>>7522145
sauce??
>>7525346
not even close to correct, the reason is corn subsidies and to establish a price floor for grain commodities thus making farming a more stable business without having to rely on commercialization and insurance which are not as efficient.
>>7525346
>>7525726
Neither of these are correct.
While it is true that subsidies help make HFCS cheaper than it might otherwise be, the real issue is the high cost of sugar in the USA.
Thanks to various tariffs and import restrictions (quotas) enacted during the late 1970's the price of sugar in the USA is roughly 3x the international average price. When the price of sugar spiked as a result of import quotas and taxes suddenly HFCS seemed like a bargain.
>>7523371
in poland we don't have it, we have felix
>>7525726
This is true. Also HFCS gives the US a domestic sugar industry easier to work with than beets or cane. We can subsidize the hell out of it because it's grown here.
It's true. 1-2 store brands and then a few others you find in every other store per product
I never really feel it's not enough choice because I'm so used to it
>>7523586
>milk
>basics
I agree that eggs can be considered basics, but milk? The dairy industry has been pushing their agenda for too long now. Their is no reason to drink milk from a cow ever. Get your calcium elsewhere.
>>7523594
Why not just buy different types of hot peppers, fresh or dried/powdered? "Hot sauce" is basically just a combination of hot peppers and vinegar, with preservatives and probably sugar in most of them.
>>7525136
It's pretty fucked up when you think about how much of a foothold big corps (really only a few of them) have in every local super market around the globe, especially in North America. But all the things their trying to sell aren't necessities, just over processed, frozen, ready-to-eat, and/or junk foods. All you really need are the store brands, minor start-up companies peddling a few products, meats, and the bulk veggies and fruits. I get that the bulk foods all come in boxes and are part of a brand in their own way, but they are still the closest thing to "farm-to-table" the average super market is going to get, so those "brands" are very much welcome.
Most people buy the big brand name "junk" food because they have conditioned themselves to believe they don't have enough time to prepare a real meal. But this is an artificial problem they've created for themselves. They most definitely have enough free time, but they instead fill it with mindless activities such as watching tv, surfing the internet, playing video games, etc. They justify these "leisure" activities by categorizing them as necessary relaxation periods so they can continue doing the "hard" work of their 9-5 job. But most jobs these days aren't very "hard", if anything they are far easier then they have ever been. That in itself can be stressful though, as people feel like they aren't really needed and the work they do isn't very fulfilling. Everything, from their shit job to their shit use of free time to their shit choice in food, is combining to condition them into being mindless drones that are easy to control. We choose this hell for ourselves.
>>7525293
Any pre-prepared frozen fish finger that you buy is already poverty food. The only battered foods you should eat are ones prepared fresh. They are the only ones that taste decent.
>>7523321
I find it funny when people act like "normal" sugar is better than HFCS. Any processed sugar is bad for you, so don't kid yourself. "Natural" sugars are only derived from whole foods, and not eating in a pure 'extracted from the plant' form. But heck, can't have our peanut butter tasting like peanuts can we.
>>7525001
Highs and lows. At one time the size was justifiable, not so much in that picture though.
>>7525842
why do people keep vilifying the big food corps?
No one puts a gun to the head of the consumers and tells them they must fork over their money for coke, oreos and prego sauce.
Most people buy brand name/prepared foods because they don't know how to cook, they don't want to cook, have no interest in cooking or simply don't care and the proof of that is that these companies exist and do the volume of business that they do.
> All you really need are the store brands, minor start-up companies peddling a few products, meats
And where do you think those foods come from? There are only so many factories for some products because they work on the basis of economics of scale, most products end up being the same with minor tweaks with different labels coming out of the same factory.
>>7525842
What's fucked up is that in much of North America the convenience products in the supermarket are the baseline for "normal" eating. But that's where we're at. Saying how fucked up it is while shaking your fists in the direction of Monsanto, ADM, Tyson and whatever other Agribusiness giants displease you isn't going to accomplish anything.
You can choose not to be a part of it, though. Or if that's too much of a pain in the ass you can choose to be only a very little part of it. Cook your own damned food and avoid ingredients you find sketchy (which is most of what's in the supermarket).
>>7525887
Because the big food corps are enabling the lifestyle you describe.
That being said, I have no problem with how other people want to eat. If they don't want to cook and would rather buy instant stuff, that's fine, that's their choice. But what bothers me is that the industrialization of food has resulted in a lot of lost knowledge and lost varieties of food. These days many people tend to think of food as a commodity item. All potatoes are the same. All carrots are the same. All tomatoes are the same, etc. That's outright incorrect as there are all sorts of differences between different cultivars of fruits and veggies. Meat tastes different depending on the breed of the animal and its feed. And so on. That's important information but it seems like it's being lost.
>>7524541
>there's only one or two factories in the country that manufacture it
While this may be accurate, it still doesn't mean that they are pumping out the exact same sauce in every bottle. The mechanized process may be the same, but for each different brand/type they would have different "ingredients". Ingredients here would probably be a syrupy concoction of the "flavor profile", fillers, and preservatives. So for each different one they make, they'd change out a bag/tank/whatever. Otherwise you would only see one type of each brand of bbq sauce, and not the "rib and steak" or "chicken" "flavors".
The things that are exactly the same are the canned veggies and fruits. All that's different are the labels they smack on the can/jar. The only time it's different is if it's originating from a different place.
>>7525907
>as there are all sorts of differences between different cultivars of fruits and veggies. Meat tastes different depending on the breed of the animal and its feed. And so on. That's important information but it seems like it's being lost.
hey I don't disagree with that, I like to try different things and it sounds like you do to. and on this topic you are talking about produce which isn't the same as the previous comment. but while we are on the subject of produce, while you and i may like the different varieties, the modern consumer around the world not just in the US and Western Europe, modern consumers want their produce to look pretty more than they want it to taste good that is simply the reality and consumer choice is what gets rid of varieties not so much the other way around. why would you grow variety of apples XYZ if there is no market for it? nobody is gonna do that.
>Because the big food corps are enabling the lifestyle you describe.
Slaughter houses enable you to have a lifestyle where you eat meat without having to ever see the animal you eat, you are literally paying someone else to kill the cow or the pig for you, its the same logic. but you wouldn't argue it that way, so whats the difference?
as far as losing traditions, yeah i know that it sucks, but that is up to every one of us, we can't use big corporations as scape goats. most people just don't care, the important thing is that there are enough of us that do to write that shit down and save it for the next generation.
>>7525869
HFCS is not chemically different from sugar, correct. But its appearance on the ingredients list is an indicator the product is cheap, poor quality stuff.
>>7525887
>why do people keep vilifying the big food corps?
Because the crappy food they make has set the standard so very low that people think mediocre food is amazing. I think it's wonderful that there is a system in place to provide cheap food to the masses. But when junk and fast food completely replaces home cooking for many people you've not just blown up the aesthetics of American taste, but you've created a huge health crisis. And you've made a tidy profit doing so. As will the Pharma and Healthcare industries when these people get sick.
That is fucked up. You can say no one is holding a gun to anybody's head, but most people just do whatever is considered normal, and normal has become very fucked up.
>>7525963
>You can say no one is holding a gun to anybody's head, but most people just do whatever is considered normal, and normal has become very fucked up.
thats just life. americans have proven time and time again that they don't think anything is wrong with the current agricultural subsidy system, otherwise their votes would show it on the floor of congress, pizza is a vegetable remember.
>>7525969
>pizza is a vegetable
Only the poor and poorly educated think this way. Unfortunately we're on track to make them about half the country.
>>7525937
>want their produce to look pretty more than they want it to taste good
Yeah, I know what you mean. A lot of customers do think that way. But the problem was trying to describe is that many customers don't even know that a difference exists. It's one thing to choose the pretty but tasteless lemon over the ugly lumpy tasty one. It's another thing entirely to not have the option of buying the lumpy one. The commodification of food is making things lean in that direction.
>>consumer choice is what gets rid of varieties
Perhaps originally, but these days a lot of people didn't even have the choice.
For example, I was watching "Mind of a Chef" the other day, and they had an old man as a guest discussing the produce catalog he saw in his youth during the 1950's. It listed dozens upon dozens of varieties of beans, carrots, squashes, etc. When that man went to the market he had plenty of choices. When I go to the market I have one type of carrot I can buy. One type of zucchini, etc.
>>would you grow variety of apples XYZ if there is no market for it?
Of course. My point is that there might be a market for it if people these days knew that those choices existed. Right now most consumers don't even know that there could be a choice.
>>7525937
>its the same logic. but you wouldn't argue it that way, so whats the difference?
I disagree. Whether I kill the pig or whether I hire someone to kill a pig the end result is the same: pig dies, and I get pork. The point I was trying to make about "enabling the lifestyle" is that the large corporations simply pick the "top earner" and sell that product alone. They take away options for the consumer by focusing on what's the most profitable as opposed to offering more variety.
>>7525993
>dozens of varieties of beans, carrots, squashes, etc.
You can still find many of these at Farmers' Markets. You will generally pay a premium for your nonstandard choice, but if you're lucky enough to live near a decent Farmers' Market the choice is still there. Just not at the supermarket.
>>7526014
Yes, I know. I shop at those markets & roadside stands, etc. I mail-order all sorts of exotic stuff. My point wasn't that these things are impossible to get anymore--clearly they are not. Rather my point was that the average person doesn't even know those varieties exist thanks to the policies of large corporations. If you don't know that they exist then it's difficult to seek them out.
>>7526022
True, but the average person eats fast food in their car at least once in a while. Why would they care about some heritage variety of lettuce when they're just gonna drown in ranch anyways.
The damage has already been done. If you want something better guess what? You're not the average person. The average person doesn't watch cooking shows on PBS. Just accept that you're part of the elite, and avoid soiling your palate with the garbage the "average person" gorges on.
If you're aware enough to be annoyed by the supermarket that's a sign you shouldn't be shopping there.
>>7526022
>average person doesn't even know those varieties exist thanks to the policies of large corporations
I hate to burst your bubble because you are so invested in this but you are delusional and I can prove it to you.
Go into a poor zip code near you and walk in the grocery store and talk with people. And no not whole foods, not a fucking farmers market, and not road side stands either, which by the way, get their produce from the same wholesaler as grocery stores.
Go in a food fair, food lion, go in a save a lot go to a walmart and look at what people buy.
> Of course. My point is that there might be a market for it if people these days knew that those choices existed. Right now most consumers don't even know that there could be a choice.
Consumers don't care. The gap between rich and poor only exacerbates this problem because when you have less and less money to buy food with you are not going to buy something you've never ate before.
>>7522145
I love this about the US.
More specifically, I love being in Texas where meat is so cheap.
NY Strip steaks were $2.33/lb (~$4.90/kg) at the local HEB a while back.
I can get all sorts of cuts of pork or chicken for as low as $0.70 a pound.
As to the variety, it's true that in some cases there are no meaningful differences, however grocery stores like HEB actually manufacture their own products and have lots of unique lineups that indirectly compete with national brands.
>>7526038
>Why would they care about some heritage variety of lettuce....
Maybe I'm just clinging to hope here, but I'd like to think that if someone like that tasted a really nice veggie then they wouldn't need to dip it in ranch to make it taste good.
And that sort of thing can happen at least part of the time. A couple years ago I took one of my interns with me on a short business trip. We stopped off at a hole-in-the-wall BBQ joint that I frequent and I bought us both lunch. Their drink selection was terribly limited so we both got lemonade. This place did lemonade the old-school way, with a big pile of lemons and an old manual juicer. The lady juiced the lemons, added water and sugar, then gave us our drinks. It completely blew my intern's mind. All he ever had was the "lemonade" from the soda fountain so the fresh stuff was a flavor explosion by comparison. He was literally freaking out about how awesome it was. When I pointed out that all he had to do to get the exact same thing was to squeeze lemons and add sugar that nearly blew his mind too--he assumed that it was some big complex involved thing to make lemonade, when in reality it's so simple that children used to do it. Now he's into cooking and he just recently got into homebrew too.
My hope is that if offered the opportunity to try things that are bred or grown for flavor as opposed to long shelf life or picture-perfect appearance that we'd have more people like that, and thus more variety in our markets.
>>7526052
OK I'm gonna have to ask this.
Where do you live?
Whats your yearly income?
What kind of industry do you work in or have worked in the past?
What kind of people do you deal with on a daily basis?
>>7526047
>you are not going to buy something you've never ate before
This is why I shop at grocery stores that do "Buy x thing, get x free."
It can easily let you save like $3-5 on a purchase you wouldn't normally make, which allows you to try new brands at the same prices as your standard purchase.
For example, the first here, you might say
"Well I was going to spend $4 on a 5 pound bag of cheap charcoal anyway. Might as well buy $8 of sausage and get a better quality charcoal for free."
Now, you've spent $4 more than you intended, but you come out with a pound an a half of decent sausage as well.
All in all, it makes for good value if you plan it properly.
This can't be done as easy by trying to use ten $0.40 coupons across a myriad of items.
>>7526052
>but I'd like to think that if someone like that tasted a really nice veggie then they wouldn't need to dip it in ranch to make it taste good
What if you can appreciate the taste of the vegetable, and also enjoy the way the flavors combine?
Would you also look down upon someone enjoying it with a balsamic vinaigrette?
Or a bit of pesto and red pepper?
>>7526047
>but you are delusional and I can prove it to you.
I'm not sure what your point is. What is it that you think I'll see there? I happen to live in a poor area: Hearne, Texas. Home of the very first Wal-Mart to ever go out of business thanks to crime.
>Consumers don't care
You're right. But I think the reason why many of them don't care is because they simply aren't aware that other options exist.
>>less and less money to buy food with
I'm not sure how that's relevant here. The average "poor" person buys box meals and eats fast food often. I did that shit when was in college. And now--even though I'm admittedly a snob about ingredient quality--I spend LESS money than I did during my college days eating canned soups & hamburger helper from Wal-Mart. Cooking from scratch is so much cheaper that even with 'fancy' ingredients it still beats the alternatives.
A few weeks ago I bought a family-raised heritage breed hog (mangalitsa, if anyone cares). After I finished breaking it down it cost me less than $2/lb. That's cheaper than even the cheapest pork at Wal-Mart.
I just recently ordered a country ham from Benton's, which is now inredibly famous thanks to being on so many food shows. Cost? $71 for 12 lbs. That's cheaper than what my local supermarket charges for their no-name deli ham, and nearly half the price of Boar's Head.
>>7526070
I'm not trying to be rude baby, but you are not the average consumer, you totally live in a different world than most people in this country, shit most people on 4chan. You are obviously making well above the average income in this country and live in a area that has a high variety of food options aka high income zip code.
Big corporations aren't the problem, you can't see that because you life in a completely separate world, its easy to say those people are wrong buying XYZ until you find yourself in their shoes. Talk with people you will learn more than what I can tell you on here.
>>7526070
>I should spend more money to get things I didn't want
>>7526052
>When I pointed out that all he had to do to get the exact same thing was to squeeze lemons and add sugar that nearly blew his mind
I had a similar experience while having dinner in the Midwest at the home of one of my wife's high school friends. She was serving frozen pizza and salad from a bag. She reached into the fridge, pulled out a few bottles of dressing, and asked who liked which kind. I asked if she had olive oil and vinegar, and when she said she did I asked if she minded me whipping up a little vinaigrette. She said go for it, and watched me intently as I did. Her response? "I didn't know you COULD DO that!"
Unfortunately for most folks good enough trumps better when the latter involves extra effort and/or expense. I'm sure my wife's friend did not start making her own vinaigrette, just as I'd wager your intern did not start making his own lemonade from scratch.
The only people who do that are food professionals and those for whom standard issue is not good enough but they're not wealthy enough to hire professionals to do it for them. (Basically the target audience for PBS.) That's you. That's me. The average person may be impressed by better, but they're not going out of their way for it. They're happy with the ranch dressing.
>>7526085
I like sausage.
After being aware of the deal, I wanted the sausage. {insert gay joke}
I wasn't planning on getting sausage, but that particular deal gave me a large discount per pound of food, considering I was going to purchase charcoal anyway.
>>7526060
>Where do you live?
Central Texas
>Whats your yearly income?
About $80k after taxes
>What kind of industry do you work in or have worked in the past?
-first job was at 15; mom-n-pop hardware store
-worked as an auto/motorcycle mechanic to put myself through college & to pay for my massive anime collection (hey, this is 4chan after all)
-managed a private lab for a major university doing research on polymers
-own my own business: welding, steel fabrication, & machining. I do manual machining, my partner does CNC.
>What kind of people do you deal with on a daily basis?
My staff/employees are mostly dorks into role-playing, sci-fi, and the like. A few of them are gearheads (hot rodding cars/trucks). About half of them are alcoholics and/or potheads. My customers are about a 50/50 mix of engineering professionals and oilfield workers
>>7526076
>What if you can appreciate the taste of the vegetable, and also enjoy the way the flavors combine?
Sounds great! Though that's a bit unlikely to happen with Ranch as it's a rather strong flavor so it tends to cover up whatever you put it on.
>Would you also look down upon someone enjoying it with a balsamic vinaigrette?
No, why would I?
Mind you, I don't look down on people who drown their burger (or whatever) with ranch. Much of our food has become so flavorless in the name of convenience and appearance that that sort of thing is often needed to make it palatable.
>>7526083
>Big corporations aren't the problem, you can't see that because you life in a completely separate world,
I think he's right. His world has higher standards. The world of low standards you seem to live in is partially a result of big corporations selling dumbed down food to people who can't tell the difference. If that's all you know it'll be good enough for you.
Where do you live?
Eastern Kentucky
Whats your yearly income?
Now less than $14000
What kind of industry do you work in or have worked in the past?
Currently a janitor, had a job for four years with a food and bev company that shall remain nameless but its a biggie
What kind of people do you deal with on a daily basis?
Currently none, just work and home barely even talk with a soul, but when working for said company I talked with consumers, store employees, store managers, store owners
I also live under the special status of being without legal status, been here for ten years gonna go home end of the year. so yeah we live in completely different worlds, unfortunately the one i live in is bigger and has more people than the one you live making 80k a year. I am trying to save money so I have $30 a week to spend on food and whatever else like toilet paper for example. You are completely out of touch with my reality and the reality of most Americans.
>>7526106
You seem reasonable, but it is worth noting that there are many brands and homemade varieties of ranch that are wildly different.
In most cases, I would consider something like a balsamic vinaigrette or a garlic aioli to be much more overwhelming in flavor than ranch.
However, many store-bought varieties of ranch have a very thick soybean oil emulsion that does indeed coat everything it touches thick with oil.
I suppose you could consider 'restaurant-style' ranch, which generally means a much lighter, thinner dressing focused on the herbs and buttermilk, and not the thickness of body.
>>7526119
>You are completely out of touch with my reality and the reality of most Americans.
When it comes to food and cooking that's probably an asset.
>>7526129
>When it comes to food and cooking that's probably an asset.
>>7525846
I don't think you have eaten good frozen fish fingers. None of the ingredients in the batter can sour, and the fish is prime quality frozen unless its warehouse trash in the first place.
The main flaws are:
1. Too much salt on fish, since it dries it
2. Flavorless batter, or batter from leftover oil which tastes sour
3. Wrong usage of pepper
4. Fish can be filett pieces, or it can be fishbone mystery mush.
5. Fish can be leftover fish, with a sour taste. Storage preserves said taste
Then again, what makes Fish Fingers poverty food is what its paired with. It can still be paired with proper butter, fresh boiled potatos and dill.
>>7525937
>modern consumers want their produce to look pretty
Modern consumer has no idea what vegetables are anymore, so eventually people stop caring about things beyond bright colors and water shine.
Shape will even be less of a issue.
Now, food variety has been a issue troughout the entire industrial revolution, and there has been a increasing pressure for uniformity in types of food.
Which is fucking sad, because it will lead to food monoculture, and then lots of disease and poor earth.
>>7526014
>You can still find many of these at Farmers' Markets.
Merely by existing, Farmers Markeds have no right to living. Mostly by staying outside of the current business environment.
If something exist, and normal entities are not purchasing from them, they do not exist.
Which is ironic, because restaurants will purchase weird breeds of food directly from farmers, if they discover such a thing exists, and the restaurant has enough of a luxury label to stand out.
>>7526233
> stop caring
If they cared to begin with you would have supply. But what you have a supply of is premade foods/sides/condiments. Consumers don't care.
>>7525963
>that entire second point
I'm a Brit and this is why the government is doing everything in its power to get rid of the NHS. Without an NHS the onus of obesity is on the individual, not society, so therefore there will be less of a social push to get fit.
Our Supermarkets are slowly turning into America Lite supermarkets and from my own experiences I can tell that the next generation is going to be malnourished as fuck.
>>7526314
How would you propose a fix? A tax on salt, sugar and fat? Wouldn't work as a fix. It would have a opposite effect of what's intended.
You don't treat drug addicts that way, you give them treatment. Sugar addiction should be treated just like drug addiction, it's not like you can just stop eating. There should be developed a drug to curb or stop cravings or the want of sugar. You end sugar addiction you end junk food consumption.
>>7524123
This. I remember going to a popup store in London which was selling a wide variety of American treats. It was all absolutely disgusting. WAY too sweet. Holy shit.
>>7524947
>I do not believe the average consumer could really tell the difference between Lay's, Wise and store brand potato chips
But you can. Easily.
>>7526328
I don't know how to fix it except a heavy push on healthy eating in schools and punishing parents who willingly fuck up their kid's diet (so like 75% of parents here). The thing is they don't want to fix it. Once the NHS gets privatized that's billions of pounds from fatasses ready to be taken.
>You end sugar addiction you end junk food consumption
Agreed. The thing is that most of America's food is packed full of sugar or sugar alternatives, even shit like Bread. We're not at that stage here in the UK but we're getting there.
>>7525709
Underrated post.
>>7526344
You will not see the NHS privatised there's no way the British public would stand for that. But then again you're considering exiting the EU so there's that.
>>7526357
>there's no way the British public would stand for that
The tory-voting Boomer """majority""" (23% or so situated in the right areas) would. A few big scandals and some more strikes from the "selfish" Junior Doctors is all they need. With even The Guardian, the most left-leaning paper here, hating on the opposition the Tories have carte-blanche to do all they want.
>>7526367
So would it be like the government pays for care in the clinic of the patients choice or more along the lines of selling all assets and running a public health insurance system?
>>7526377
A move to the American system basically with price rises and insurance schemes rising accordingly. The top people in power will benefit because they'll be in bed with a lot of big firms looking to buy, and will get a hefty deal out of it. It's also their entire idealogy, sometimes 'reasoning' doesn't come into it.
>>7526383
Considering that money isn't infinite I guess something will have to change in all of Europe's health system, there's a demographic atom bomb on its way. I don't know Britain's stats but member state I come from will have a ratio of one worker per retiree.
>>7526393
Correction
One worker per two retirees
>>7522324
>one pomegranate? That'll be $5 please.
>>7526303
No, its a weird thing.
Originally you wanted "proper" vegetables, white flour, and a lot of other stuff because it was more expensive, in a age where money was short, and life was even shorter.
Once things got industrialized, things got really weird, and its because the initial wave of people cared, that things like white flour and uniform vegetables caught on in the first place.
>>7526328
A lot has to do with how the industrial solution was made in the first place.
Just banning salt and sugar as preservatives for post industrial food could be a good start.
Sure, it would directly kill off a lot of things, but its one of the easy solutions.
Mostly because it would kill brine as a preservative for fresh meat, and a lot of powder sauces.
>>7526244
>restaurants will purchase weird breeds of food directly from farmers, if they discover such a thing exists, and the restaurant has enough of a luxury label to stand out
Yes. Where I'm from we call these good restaurants.
>>7526343
Maybe you can. They all taste like salt and grease to me. I can tell the ones fried in lard or peanut oil, but that's about it.
>>7524947
>Nope. I do not believe the average consumer could really tell the difference between Lay's, Wise and store brand potato chips
Apples to apples the frying method and type of potato is usually different.
That said, which one is "superior" is not easy to know, since the quality of potato chips vary between seasons and how old the oil is.
Among other things.
Most likely you could tell the worst one apart from the other 2, but if all 3 is on different quality levels its very obvious which is which.
But the consumer would be unable to tell which is which, if the consumer do not regularly eat all the types of potato chips.
>>7526399
>banning sugar and salt
Are you out of your fucking mind? Yeah let's just ban one of the most important nutrients in the world for human survival and also one of the most addicting substances for which our brains are particularly wired to gorge on.
We don't ban cigarettes as it is and you want to outright ban sugar and salt, not as much as a tax will ever be levied at those two because we all eat and politians don't fuck with freedom of choice of food.
>>7526211
You missed the most important flaw,
6. Mass produced by machines and Mexicans who could care less about the end product.
>>7526408
>Where I'm from we call these good restaurants.
Some restaurants do not want to be "good", because it means they have to deal with the logistics of purchasing the food.
>>7526426
It would not ban sugar and salt for seasoning, candy, chocolate bars, or pickles.
Are you unfamiliar with how making pickles out of cucumbers work?
>>7526441
If a ban has exceptions then it wouldn't be a ban at all, you can't even begin to imagine the unintended consequences of what you're suggesting.
>>7526328
I don't think sugar is really the problem here. The people with "addictions" to bad food would just replace the sugary foods with salty foods, remove those, and they replace them with overly fatty foods. They are looking for ways to release that Dopamine to make themselves feel better, because the majority of their life is depressing af. Forced labor/exercise is the only way to save some of the more far gone people. They need to restructure their Dopamine receptors to a level that isn't so fucked. Being physically active is a great way to cure their issues. To get around the 'forced' aspect, government could look to push more labor based industries to increase that job sector. Maybe increase labor minimum wage and provide subsidies to the employers of physical labor (construction, factories, etc.). Too many "jobs" are being created in non-physical roles. People working these jobs have to either work out or hope their job is very fulfilling. Working out takes free time and a strong will that most people don't have.
>>7526441
Most restaurants do not even know what good is. Nor do they care, because their customers don't either.
>>7526474
What you're advocating is in essence a brocolli mandate or a nanny state in all its glory.
>>7526457
The initial wave would be a complete collapse on what is on the shelves, if the preparation date is very short.
Then everyone would switch to some form of acid, most likely citric.
It would not solve shit.
But it would be fun to watch, for like the month while the companies can't sell shit because they have to reinvent their food.
And the only thing left in shelves would be cured meat, salami, pickles, milk and frozen stuff. And flour and plants.
For like a month. Then things would be using a new preservative.
>>7526487
>people not able to afford to eat
>fun to watch
>>7526497
>He do not want a good fun while the country lives of flour, mashed veggies and potatos
>And some cheap frozen meat
>And they can't season or marinate anything for shit
>>7526504
People wouldn't be able to afford what was available because the price would go through the fucking roof.
>>7525963
>HFCS is not chemically different from sugar,
I don't want to assume your level of understanding, but "sugar" is a general term for many different chemical structures belonging to the 'sugar' family of carbohydrates. 'Table sugar' is actually sucrose, which breaks down into fructose (the F in HFCS) and glucose. Sucrose is slightly more complex (di-saccharide) than fructose and glucose (simple sugars, saccharides). Even more complex would be the starches found in potatoes, rice, and other grains. It is complex carbohydrates that are the "healthiest" for us because they last long in our system and provide more fuel over a longer period of time. The simpler carbohydrates are used up quickly and if your not being physically active while consuming them, they will mostly be directed to storage in fat cells.
TLDR;
HFCS worse
Table sugar not as bad but still pretty bad
Starches and other complex carbohydrates - GOAT
>>7526521
Price of goods would be driven down because factories can not buy raw ingredients if they are not legally allowed to produce anything with them.
Factories have storages of 1-3 days maximum too, freeing up a lot of raw ingredients.
Such as flour.
Nor would it impact the price of pasta, rice, beans or any vegetables, or any frozen goods.
Its entirely possible meat would get cheaper, because less of it would be tied up in refinement for TV dinners and canned food.
This isn't the 1940s anymore. Freezers literally exist. So do refrigerators.
>>7526486
Banning sugar or salt or whatever other junk ingredient isn't any better. But the obvious solution to all mankinds problems is mandatory licenses for giving birth. No more dumb kids, no more dumb adults. Of course, this would require a whole other level of control that we aren't willing to give up at this point.
>>7526615
>Literally letting mankind decline
>And still not nuking India
why
>>7526092
>food professionals
Or people who like to cook as a hobby
>>7526395
And how many on the dole for that one worker as well?
>>7526766
That would be the handful of those with time and disposable income enough to be into home cooking as a hobby. Generally a privileged lot.
>>7527065
I'm apparently privileged because I take 30 minutes after work to cook real food.
>>7525983
Don't tell me you weren't around when pizza was declared a vegetable by Congress because it contained tomato sauce.
>>7526566
Just figured out you're trolling, no one can be that ignorant as your post makes you look. For a foodie you have zero understanding of food manufacturing, distribution and retail works.
>Price of goods would be driven down
You just removed 90% of foods from the market and prices would go down?
>Factories have storages of 1-3 days maximum too, freeing up a lot of raw ingredients.
In general factories have more than a few days of ingredients in storage, and whatever ingredients they have in storage you just mandated a formulation change, more likely they can't use it and if they did, it would take weeks for it to get to market
> Nor would it impact the price of pasta, rice, beans or any vegetables, or any frozen goods.
Again, you just removed all the items in a grocery store with the exception of the edges of the store, you left all the middle aisles bare, the price of those foods would sky rocket.
>Its entirely possible meat would get cheaper, because less of it would be tied up in refinement for TV dinners and canned food.
Let give you a quick lesson in retail economics, the edges of the stores, the so called healthy foods around the edges, the produce, the dairy, the meats. Those are the foods that have the biggest cost associated with simply having them in stock, they require special and costly equipment, display coolers out front which are only 30% efficient and walk in cold vaults in the back, each one of those depts requires a special employee dedicated to the maintenance of that dept, and those foods have the lowest profit margin if at all in the entire store and they also require the biggest square footage from the store and are the ones that sell less.
>>7526566
The unhealthy food, the ones in the middle aisles, the ones that people actually buy more of, require less attention because they are shelf stable, can be stocked by any joe that walks in the door no special care needed, have a higher profit margin and the manufacturer/distributor will pay for the space they take up on the shelf. For some products, the distributor itself will come in your store and do the work for you, he/she will keep the stock on the shelf rotated, they will make sure it is within date and give your money back if it goes out of date, you don't have to worry about what sells and what doesn't most of the time because the distributor will take care of that for you. The most sold items in any and all retail stores are pop and chips and you don't have to lift a finger to make money out of them, you can simply drop a pallet in the middle of the aisle and it flys away.
Milk? You throw it away by the cases
Produce? Everyday at least two 55 gallon drums go to the garbage
Meat? You don't want to know what happens to the meat.
Frozen foods, sometimes are donated, most of the time just goes in the dumpster
You're out of touch dude.
>>7524830
>>7523256
>Pic from Venezuela, they also have fingerprint scanners to ensure that people to buy to much toilet paper
>>7525001
>>7527515
If it is like Venezuela they drop the goods off but due to lack of stocks they quickly run out
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela
>>7527452
>You just removed 90% of foods from the market and prices would go down?
Demand from factories would collapse. Demand from factories freezing food would remain stable.
This means there is now more sales than there is purchases, driving down the price. Remember, there is shitloads of food companies operating on 1-2% margins after profit, which will be unable to have anything in stores.
This WILL mean there is now too much food in the marked.
>>7527452
>Those are the foods that have the biggest cost associated with simply having them in stock
Sorry, its not the 1940s anymore. There being more food won't change that meat producers have storage for bad seasons when sales stop up completely.
It do not change that the companies that truck food get their revenue regardless, and that stores in cities have a supply of 1-3 days. If there is no transportation, the stores are completely empty in 1-3 days.
Bonus point: Most warehouses are not room temperature, they are at the 15-18c range, because items store better. This means that vegetables and fruits can be stored there. Which will again mean there is no cost issue. The space exist, the supply chain exist.
Bonus point 2: You forget that even with commodity raw food, there is price ranges. Stuff like eco friendly food are a high price margin product. The only thing that will happen is that stores will use their existing manpower to refill middle aisle displays of good storage food(almost any root vegetable or grain)
>>7527466
>Frozen foods, sometimes are donated, most of the time just goes in the dumpster
Which means:
1. Meat in USA is of questionable quality in the first place
2. Meat in USA is prioritized for commodity products and high margin cuts
>>7526818
10-20% of the working population. So 1 dole per 16 people.
And its like 4 retires per 16 people at worst.
Thats what Bernie Sanders wants to do to America
>>7528746
>10-20% of the working population. So 1 dole per 16 people.
Nice math, bong.
>>7528257
>Meat in USA is prioritized for commodity products and high margin cuts
No argument there.
>Meat in USA is of questionable quality in the first place
Simply too broad a statement to make.
In all things, the United States is the home of the best and the worst.
You can likely buy meat from a cow that has been pampered and coddled its entire life. The cow of which that has been bred from a prestigious line of cattle known for richness and flavor of flesh.
On the other hand, you can waddle into Wal Mart and pay too much for assembly line steaks from ragged cows bred to be resilient to their shitty conditions.
As a Texan, I know I have access to great quality meat at the local markets at a reasonable price.
Saying that meat in the US is 'questionable' is an overbearing statement that simply cannot be considered true in many cases.
>>7524806
I was referring to a super market but yeah corner stores have a huge selecting here. But idk I feel like the non American chip companies are better like Humpty Dumpty or tato
>>7529546
>as a texan
You should have just started your post with that to save everyone the trouble of clicking on the thread and almost replying seriously
>>7529546
>The cow of which that has been bred from a prestigious line of cattle known for richness and flavor of flesh.
No such thing. You can breed cows for more size, or muscle. But not taste.
Taste is defined by what the cow eats, and how it lives its life.
Even if its lifes the comfiest life possible, its still going to be ruined by the fact its raised on fooder alone. Or plain grass.
wow some people here seriously need to clinb down from their ivory towers. people don't eat microwavable food because they think it's amazing, they do it because they can't cook or they're too busy doing something else to cook. a friend of mine used to eat nothing but take out and hungry man tv dinners, but it wasn't because big food was tricking him into it. after he got married he was happy to eat what his wife made for him.
>>7522145
You're experiencing 1st degree price discrimination when you're talking about choice. Without getting too into it, it's just the same thing being packaged differently. The hours of operation are pretty fucking rad though.
>>7522145
>Hundreds of brands and varieties of whatever, like barbecue sauce, rather than the MAYBE 10 I can choose out of here. I never bought anything outside of my 2 or 3 favorite brands but I COULD HAVE if I wanted to.
>>7522175
Dude what? I work at a grocery store and we have coupons for produce literally all the time.
>>7525001
> This seems fake
I visited Poland with my parents back in 1977 and remember having to work your way down the menu with the waiter, as half the stuff listed wasn’t available (it was all being shipped to special party member-only stores in Moscow) and Poland was the breadbasket of the Commie Block.
>>7525744
>Also HFCS gives the US a domestic sugar industry easier to work with than beets or cane. We can subsidize the hell out of it because it's grown here.
We grow ass-loads of sugar beets in the U.S. but as another anon mentioned up-thread, corn syrup is easier (and thus cheeper) to deal with on the production side then granulated sugar.
You don't have to pay employees to unload bags of sugar and empty them into machines, etc., it's far easier for a tanker truck of corn syrup to roll up and pump its load into a storage tank where it's metered out automatically into the food processing machines.
(also, corn us subsidized six-ways-to-Sunday)
>>7523503
>adding spices to food is bad
why are europeans so fucking stupid
>>7530243
>my friend was too lazy to cook
>therefore shoving his face with sugar-filled shit is fine
It takes 30 minutes to cook a decent meal for one. There is no excuse really, he just gave into temptation.
>>7522145
I'm curious what country you're in. I spent some time in Germany for work. It's been a few years, but I don't remember the food selection being noticeably worse than in the US. Different, but not really less choices.
>>7530243
>>7530243
>or they're too busy doing something else to cook
Leaving something randomly chopped up, on the oven, for 2-3 hours is not "using time".
Your "friend" is mentally retarded, and should most likely spend a week in psychiatric care, before anybody who has raised him gets thrown in then next week.
>>7530367
>corn syrup is easier (and thus cheeper) to deal with on the production side then granulated sugar.
That's entirely artificial. Sugar is MUCH cheaper than HFCS in general, but in the USA the situation is backwards because we tax sugar so highly and restrict its import. Thanks to those taxes (and to a lesser extent, subsidies for corn) we have an odd situation where HFCS is cheaper than sugar.
>>7531486
>Watching your food cook outside of checking it once in a while
why would you do that?
>>7531545
Depends on the food. If I have a roast in the oven then I'm certainly not going to stand there and watch it cook. But many kinds of cooking require attention.
>>7531610
Most require you to:
1. Reach boil/heating point
2. Check back once to adjust heat
3. Check 1-2 times to make sure you are not drying it out or applying too much heat
Even with something as advanced as making sauce, you only need to check like twice, if you are familiar with the plates heating settings.
>>7531741
That's pretty limited anon. Sure, if I'm boiling potatoes or re-heating a jar of pasta sauce then what you described applies just fine.
But say I'm cooking steaks. First I have to sear them--that requires attention so the sear isn't too light or too dark. Then I need to flip them and thus the process repeats. Now I throw in the herbs and baste them with butter--another process that requires constant effort.
If I'm making a roux, caramelizing onions, or cooking a delicate sauce then I'm stirring it nearly constantly to prevent it sticking/burning.
...and so on. Not all cooking is set-and-forget.
>>7531766
Steaks don't use time to cook. Thats sorta why they are good. You just need to eat, and then steak the steak in heat.
Bonus points: You could just marinate the steak 1-7 days in advance, and then just let it sit in the fridge until you feel like its a good day for it
>>7522145
Everything you ever wanted except real bread.
>>7531209
Again; we grow shit-loads of sugar beets in the U.S. and while we do subsidize corn syrup, it's done because of pressure from the industrialized corporate food production industry, where corn syrup is far easier and cheeper to deal with.
>>7522145
Say what you want but I think chain stores/restaurants should be banned, along with factory farming.
>>7533190
That's awfully authoritarian. Banning anything top down seems silly. But you're free to do what many of us who generally find chain stores/restaurants and industrialized farming practices unpalatable do - spend as little of your money as possible supporting that shit.
>>7533190
>I don't like something therefore nobody should do it
you are the reason >>7524830 happens
also there is no logic about treating animals you are going to slaughter for their meat and skins nicely. You are basically just harvesting protein, they aren't pets.
chain them down, cram them in pens, and fatten them up as quickly as possible. You are going to kill them anyway, their health and emotional wellness doesn't make a difference.
>>7533197
I try to but it doesn't make a difference and never will. I know I sound like a dick but most people don't know what's best for them.
>>7533222
you don't sound like a dick, you sound like a schmuck that needs to check their ego. What makes you so much better than other people that you know what's best for them and they don't?
you don't know shit, which is why you're here talking to me right now and not doing anything important.
I don't know shit either but at least I don't pretend to
>>7533221
I'm guessing you're an agnostic/atheist? Most people without morals are.
>>7533222
>most people don't know what's best for them.
So what? Most people don't count. Who cares what they do?
>>7522145
I remember finding a dusty bottle of yellow mustard in the back of a Sainsbury's in London.
Best. Day. Ever.
>>7533231
just because my morality isn't inline with yours doesn't mean I don't have morals.
if you were doing something abusive to human babies I would stop you, but I honestly couldn't give less of a fuck about what kind of conditions my dinner lived in before I took it home. I see livestock as food, they are worthless to me alive so I don't value them until they are dead.
>>7533239
Are you religious? If not then you're immoral as far as I'm concerned, your personal believies don't count as morals. You have no justification for stopping people from abusing babies.
>>7533252
Religion has nothing to do with morals.
>>7533239
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hqY1ejQUiw
>>7533270
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKHOpw6tpd4
>>7533276
Legit, but no one wants to hear it.
>>7533256
It has everything to do with them. It's impossible to have objective morality without a higher power.
>>7533252
Because you are so in line with your faith? You can't claim to be religious and live in the western world, it is simply a hypocrisy of the highest order.
>>7525001
Let me tell you a bit about how everyday consumerism and communism looked like.
>Husband's family is from Estonia.
>Mother in law had to stand from childhood on in long lines just to get a bottle of milk or winter boots for the kids.
>When she was small she'd earn a few kopek by pretending to be someone else's kid (because every woman with a kid in tow could buy 2 bottles of milk instead of one)
>Had to wait from 6am till who knows while pregnant and with 2 kids on her arms.
Only a few people cared and sometimes let her forward but usually old grannies would just cut lines because "i survived the war" bullshit.
The supermarket was huge but usually only once a month you could buy childrens boots or some different kind of sausage.
There were no packed shelves or self-service in that store.
My parents in law were very blessed by having friends from Finland and Sweden who sent care packages every month.
>>7533394
>>7525001
Soviet economy policy was complicated. This store was most likely made in the late 60's or re-purposed.
Typically production was geared towards highly designated items; e.g., the production of grain is prioritized above the production of bell peppers. This market was a market for purchase with internal currency, therefore the prices of items were extremely cheap, but often rationed. What occurred in many cases was that people would buy items they didn't need, but were first to get as they could then sell them on the black market, or they could simply keep them for when the need arises; e.g., I don't need new boots, but new boots are in stock. I'll buy new boots. This kind of economic logic caused shortages.
Combine this with infrequent supply, or potentially rerouted supplies due to emergencies or corruption, and you had blank shelves.
Essentially, smaller stores in large cities would be birch street stores which took hard or foreign currency as they had a much better idea of what stock they would receive.
>>7533190
Chain restaurants exists because people have the money to start a franchise, but not enough knowledge to make independent run. Or know chefs that can make the cuisine that they want to sell
Banning them won't really solve anything.
Now factory farming? Its sorta questionable. But its far less questionable than a lot of the chemicals used, or the general agricultural monoculture.
Banning factory farming is too shortsighted, and won't even go after any of the things that make it bad.
>>7533596
>the way things were during a time of economic upheaval was the way things were for 75 years of Soviet history
Your parents should have felt blessed to have eighteen year old prostitute Katya looking to work for a smuggled can of coca cola, these days I bet a girl like her goes for a lot of roubles.
>>7525001
The problem with Communism stores is how they are stocked. They have roughly the same amount of goods as western ones. But they don't have a supply of 110%. Instead they are at 100%, but with burst sales.
In a western store, there would be aisles of things people rarely bought, to fill up the store. And they would have a slight oversupply, when they in reality sell almost the same amount of goods as the communist one.
Top down rationing is also a issue, because in parts of the year, some goods are in a higher supply. This forces a shortage unless the supply can meat the demand.
So to sum up:
1. Stores do not have over supply. This means people will make lines when new goods is ready to be purchased
2. There are exceptions allowing for more goods. But no checking of it. Which means there will actually be a milk shortage because of people gaming the system
3. Goods arrive in uniform. So if all the meat arrives at Wednesday, everyone will visit store Wednesday for that one goods.
4. Outside of the days when those supplies arrive, you can not trust the store to have stock of these. Which again makes it worse. Otherwise people would just shop when it would be convenient.
>>7523256
I can't find boris vodka anywhere in fucking Sydney.
>>7533394
a 'higher power' is a construct of human imagination. real or not, it is arbitrary in this discussion as we cannot know what a higher power's morals are, or how they would act.
>>7522145
I live in usa half the time, uk the other half. I find the usa has a terrible choice in most things. All the supermarkets in the uk have atleast one premium jersey cow brand milk, often more than one. I have been to several different supermarkets in the usa, they just have normal cows milk. Usa lacks most of the cheeses we can buy here, nowhere does buffalo mozerella for example, only one store had marscapone. Even lidl here has both those cheeses. The vegetable ranges are so small and expensive compared to supermarkets here, and often poor quality, the vegetables are often partially rotten.
The meat range in the usa is awful, hardly any lamb products, never any duck or guinea fowl and the chicken is the basic shit. The beef is okay in the usa but not as good flavor as the uk, the only thing the usa does better is having chicken hearts and gizzard for sale, i have never seen that in the uk supermarkets. The fish range in the usa is one of the worst i have seen, do americans not eat fish or aomething? The usa has an awful bakery range too, the cakes are so shit, they are like the cakes used to be here 15 years ago, the breads are bland and basic too, even tesco here has things like spelt bread. The pastry ranges are also shit in the usa. Why do you guys not sell pain au chocolat? Its literally got chocolate in, i would have though americans would love it as its so sweet. Your spices, condiments etc are shit too, so medicore and really not a lot of range. Hell, even your clothes washing powders are inferior, they are like industrial basic shit that would ruin clothes quickly if you regulary used that shit to wash them with.
I am sure theres some stores in the usa that sell good quality things, but if we are judging only by supermarkets, then the usa fails hard. Step your game up, its supposed to be the land of choice and freedom.
>>7533596
How is Estonia today? Genuinely curious I want to go to that part of Europe and travel all of the eastern block including Ukraine, probably not going to do it until a few years.
How do I communicate? Can only speak portuguese and english.
The funny part being, 9 times out of 10 the generic store brand is just as good.
>>7534077
You're forgetting the many parts of the US still suffer from being frontier territory as recently as 150 years ago. Traditional European cheeses and European style baked goods didn't make it to the frontier. And in landlocked places people really didn't develop much of a taste for fish.
Everything you list as missing from a US supermarket is pretty easily found in the more cosmopolitan cities in the US. But the US is pretty fucking far from Italy and France, so Italian and French products are luxuries here. You won't seem in markets that cater to the lower and middle classes. That's where you see commodity grade industrial shit only. But if you go to places where more affluent Americans shop, particularly in or near a major city you'll find everything you're missing is available.
Think about what happened to British cooking during the 20th Century. Oxo cubes, the chippy, fishfingers... If it weren't for your proximity to other food cultures that weren't gutted by industrialization UK supermarkets wouldn't be half as well stocked. In the US industrialization of our agriculture happened on a much larger scale, and after that we had no neighbors with higher standards to show us what we were missing.
So the only people clamoring for the really good stuff are those wealthy enough to have tried it in the first place. Those who can afford to shop at specialty stores, eat at good restaurants and travel to Europe. That's a very small percentage of Americans.
>>7534077
Stop going to Walmart.
>>7534077
Everything you mentioned can be explained, mostly you have a supply chain that is very adapted to shelf stable products and that exludes most of the fresh stuff you're mentioning.
As far as meats, you will never find lamb in your run of the mill grocery store, same reason you won't find fish, people don't buy it, the farther away you are from the coast the more costly it will be also and as price rises less people buy it.
>The pastry ranges are also shit
Same reason as above, supply chain, cost and demand
I don't know where you were in the USA, sounds like bum fuck egypt, the kind of place I live in to lol.
>>7533276
terrible, and its funny how a vegan probably thinks thats a waterproof argument.
There is a difference between killing for food and killing for the sake of killing
if I was standing there next to the lever I would pull it because, well why not? save someone the trouble of having to deal with cleaning that shit up. I wouldn't go rushing out of my way to do it though
>>7534442
It is pretty much the vegan argument, though - make your choices so you're responsible for as little animal suffering as possible, because you can live just as well without it.
You don't have to agree with it, but it does make sense living in an industrialized world.
>>7534077
Where the fuck have you been shopping, the dollar store? I can walk down the street right now to a normal grocery store, an average Kroger, and get all kinds of imported cheeses. They have a huge display of certified Parmigiano Regiano, many different kinds of chedder, gorgonzola, and yes Mozzarella di Bufala. Do you like Mimollete? I can get you some. Sure, some of the things you mention are hard to find in some places, but the picture you've painted is way off base for people in other regions of the country. This is indeed a land of choice, and you've obviously been choosing to shop at wally world in the middle of fucking nowhere.
>>7534557
>thinking is vegan
lol wtf is this, the red scare?
>>7525782
>dairy industry
You do know how long dairy has been consumed by humans, right?
I agree that most people are lactose intolerant and don't need milk besides for when a dish calls for it, but fermented dairy like yogurt and cheese are fine to eat.
>>7524947
golly, it's almost as if we've been culturally hard-wired to define ourselves through representation than actualization
>>7535011
Surely being the target of advertising practically since birth leads on to consider what they buy as representative of who they are as what they say or do.
I could look in your pantry and tell quite a bit about you, probably more than I could from the car you drive, your music collection or the neighborhood you live in.
>>7534207
>>7534211
>>7534229
>>7534871
Miami, I tried walmart, costco, win dixie, some spic supermarket and publix. Its a major city and those stores cover a wide range of poor to middle class. Thats why I say it is shit. If I was in bumfuck nowhere, I would expect poor quality, I understand supply and demand,
Also why is smoked salmon so expensive in the usa?
>>7535063
this is absolutely true, and that's really what Debord's whole philosophy is about, we define ourselves through things - spectacles - rather than our own actual lives.
We amass cultural capital and signifying images and have them orbit around our person, and use those to tell people who we are. We become buried in the media we consume (and yes, we can consider food brands as media) until we're walking around totally obscured, like we're trapped in those inflatable sumo suits. Our thoughts aren't dreams, they're motion pictures playing in our heads, flicks full of product placement.
And even then, if we try to subvert this "brand subservience" and shop outside the mainstream entirely, then aren't we not just doing the same thing with counterexample? Shopping outside of the system doesn't free you from it, it just turns you into "that guy who's outside the system" - but this is considered deviant, and that's why we laugh at hipsters, lampoon "shop local" types, and label as "pretentious" those who take pride in their "individuality".
Abundance of choice and ease of access is the culprit, so the only way to really be free from the society of the spectacle is to determine every single thing you consume (and therefore represent yourself by) through means of coin flip or some other random or arbitrary method. Or to abolish all industrialized consumerism by either eliminating all choice and halting any deviation from a consumer standard, or reverting back to raising our own food, making our own clothes, etc. so that our consumption is the result of a necessary lifestyle, not a tailored image.
>>7535109
>that's why we laugh at hipsters, lampoon "shop local" types, and label as "pretentious" those who take pride in their "individuality".
By some metrics I qualify as all those things to at least some extent. Defining yourself by spectacle isn't a choice in the modern world - we're kind of stuck with it whether we like it or not. But being aware of it leads to choices that may seem more meaningful, or at least fulfilling.
>>7535152
True. Like, I collect a lot of physical media and odd knick-knacks. It's superficial enough to give Mr. Debord an aneurysm, but I feel drawn to the idea of cultivating these collections and having them displayed like a museum exhibit. A "museum of me," if you will. I feel like the objects I collect don't just represent me on a symbolic level, but given particular memories or time periods associated with them, can have more significance to my life than just me liking them. Kids with blogs nowadays, like tumblr (the actual blogging side, not the social justice side) so the same thing. They're basically virtual capsules of "them" and their interests and engagements over time. That's the whole "aesthetic" meme/movement too, I think. (And if you're curious, I collect horror movies and other spooky decor, and also retro video game junk, like Atari age stuff.)
Even older than that, think of a bookshelf - every book on that shelf, assuming the person has read it, represents ideas that the person has absorbed and synthesized into part of their being. Unless you're buying books just to decorate your space, these books ARE a part of you, and by not just storing them, but displaying them, you're signifying "these books have shaped who I am in some way" and the whole arrangement (that is, even the artful organization of the books - alphabetical? by size? by color? which ones are most prominent?) acts as kind of a synecdoche for the Self.
Debord's not wrong, but I don't think his argument is inherently cynical, although that's the approach he takes. It all seems bad on the surface, but at the very least it can indeed make people think about why they're buying the things they're buying. Do they want the Thing, or do they want to be associated with the Thing, or be seen as the kind of Person who buys the Thing?
shit, I never expected to talk media theory and consumerism on /ck/ today. pleasant surprise, though.
>>7535220
It's easy to make the case that materialism is shallow. But what would you replace it with? Utopian communities have shown over and over again you can't just pull a working community out of your ass. And spirituality isn't for everyone. So what does that leave the modern man? Not all that much, and g9iven the options I'll take hedonism, without taking it to extremes.
>>7535252
I argue that it's all a matter of proactivity. Modern man has more choices before him than ever before, but also more information to assist those choices than ever before as well. As many choices as we have between Brands A-Z, we have every resource available to figure out the minutiae that distinguishes them. Are we going to go with gut instincts and first impressions with our products, or do some research (or various trials) first to decide which one we really want, for the right reasons? Consumption should be conscious, not absentminded, and the comfort zone is the killer of conscious consumption.
So I really agree with you, the "hedonism" enabled by modern abundance can entail Galactus-level consumption either bereft or encumbered by discrimination (close-mindedness versus absent-mindedness), but a "thoughtful hedonism" lets people make the most of the choices presented before them. And this doesn't just apply to food, it applies to any kind of product or media that is manufactured in abundance nowadays: literature, film, television, etc.
At the end, it all kind of boils down to the classic philosophical debate of taste, and the cultivation thereof. "Good taste" vs "bad taste" can be minced out in argument, but the problem facing the culture of consumption nowadays (in food, notably) is the fact that few people are really cultivating taste at all. They're just not making the effort and probably wouldn't have a good answer if asked why they like Brand A over B. At best, they might have practical answers: it's cheaper, it's convenient, it's easy, etc.
Because really, assuming each brand produces their product with sanitary competence, what's the difference between two different kinds of flour? Of apple? Of imitated-recipe cereal? (Although with that last one, I did buy knock-off Cinnamon Toast Crunch as a kid once, and holy hell was it awful. But again, we're assuming competence)
>>7534185
Different anon. Pretty much every younger person (under 30) speaks english around here. Shops are perfectly normal.
Food wise, we usually like fatty food. Most estonians eat mainly potatoes and meat, lots of milk products. We also drink a lot.
>>7535353
Cool. I just looked up to see if you're part of Schengen wikipedia says yes.
Wasn't concerned about food, I want to go if I have the chance. Haven't figured out logistics of it yet, I was thinking going by train.
>>7522145
Maybe you're in Germany or something.
Her in britain, there's a few shelves of bbq sauces, even if it all tastes the same to unamericans.
Stores are open 24 hours 6 days a week, with some sunday opening.
And you get coupons through loyalty cards.
>>7525346
You do realise that the problem is that Americans insist on gallons of it being added to every single foodstuff, right?
I can't wait until the oil starts to run out and all the corn goes into ethanol production. Americans might have to stop having everything sweetened to the point it causes overload in everyone else.
>>7535734
>ethanol
you realize cold fusion has been invented, right? fossil fuels are dead.
>>7535353
>no picture of puppey
seriously?
>>7534207
Man, I love living in Europe. I get my cheese from France and the alps, my tuna and olives from Spain (same quality but much cheaper than Italy) and my salami and prosciutto from Italy, my feta cheese and even more olives from Greece, my beer from Germany, my fresh produce organic and locally grown.
Only the best shit at affordable prices. I couldn't imagine eating any other way.
>>7535734
Behold the average Europoor, nothing of value to add and woefully incorrect in their statements, yet they'll spout off to try and sound smart.
>>7523321
>>syrup or any ice cream topping: lmao + ayy
why did i laugh so hard?
Aussie here, yes. I'm jealous, we have fucking shit compared to the US, shitty fast food options, shitty item selections, and shitty produce selections too. We also don't have those cheap niche health stores you guys get either.
>>7537364
I know a few Americans who would gladly trade places to you. Count you're blessing's :-)
>>7535310
The cultivation of good taste as a worthwhile pursuit is a Renaissance idea, And the only places where it's more than a hobby for the upper classes are those where the Renaissance had as profound an effect on the culture as modernity - Italy, France and Spain leap to mind. In the north dreary Protestant values belittled the value of taste. In the US it's always been something for the elite: Jefferson may have had a cellar full of French wine, but very few of his pork and beans eating fellow Americans had ever tasted anything resembling good wine. In fact, the frontier mentality here has an almost knee-jerk reaction against good taste, seeing it as effete and possibly un-American. This is part of why it was so easy for degraded low quality industrial products to become the standard here, especially when it comes to food.
>>7537311
Europe has the advantage of being able to cherry pick the best stuff from many different cultures that happen to be not very far from each other geographically. Couple that with a tendency to value and protect traditional regional delicacies and you guys generally have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to food (depending on where you live). But you do pay much more for it than we do in the States. You can't imagine just how cheap food is here for the average person, even if the quality doesn't match up.
>>7537364
For a place that's really in the middle of nowhere you guys do more than OK. As far as fast food Hungry Jack's is a little expensive for Burger King level shit. But in your major cities you can find perfectly good Chinese food for cheap. And who the fuck can complain about meat pies, sausage rolls and pasties? And even the lousiest coffee shops in Sydney and Melbourne are pulling better espresso then the Starbucks that litter the American landscape. You have top seafood - the best oysters I've had in my life were in Ausfailia, and you have fucking bugs, too. And wine and lamb.
>>7537345
Behold, the American. Nothing to say other than attacking people!
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