Historical European Martial Arts Thread
Please keep it kind and on topic. Also no SCA/Reenactment please.
Essential Information:
http://www.communitywalk.com/user/view/81443
https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=619536
http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=686
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.hroarr.com/
http://www.middleages.hu/english/martialarts/treatise_database.php
last thread: >>967117
>>1054314
>that skin tight spandex
>>1054328
How do you guys train in your clubs? Do you study the a general style by concepts or do you study all the techniques from a treatise in order to get the concepts of the style? Or do you first study the concepts and then do the techniques for in-depht analysis? Or what else?
>>1054354
Likely we start with reading the manual, since we also do translation (medieval high german to german) this can take a long time. We check the basic stuff first, if it is standard Liechtenauer this can be somewhat fast. Afterwards it is interpretation and drilling time, this usually lasts months. once most of the stuff is clear and peer tested, we train it, simple stuff and loads of footwork first for the newbies, more complex techniques later.
What kind of gauntlets do you guys use?
I'm looking to upgrade from lacrosse gloves.
>>1054478
I use the polish sprraing gloves, they offer great protection and are durable, however they are a bit clumsy.
There are two projects for new gloves running, St. Mark and ProGauntlet, lets see if they can offer the same protection whilst being less clumsy.
>>1054491
St.Mark gloves are actually out now, although I'm still waiting a review on it before I buy
>>1054504
Url? whats the pricetag?
>>1054478
Red Dragon gloves.
Better than Lacrosse gloves for a comparable price.
Wouldn't rely on them for tournaments, though.
>>1054520
Actually, RD gloves are Lacrosse gloves.
>>1054506
210 euro money
http://www.saintmark.se/product/the-koning-glove/
>>1054354
we study some techniques from italian treatises and the lessons are split in 3 sections, first warm up/ building strenght, then footwork (i dont know if there's a name for it, the teacher calls steps/attacks and we have to do them) then technique studying and sometimes sparring. Sometimes since we have 3 teachers they split the class so newbies do easy excercises or if someone has to work on a pre-made duel for historical re-enacments and stuff.
>>1054354
In basic courses we work on concepts (footwork, wards, basic and special attacks, parries, binding, etc) so newbies can get a first glimpse on the weapons and systems and decide what do they want to study more, in advances courses we study the treatises and it's easy since the students already know the fundamentals. Basic courses are kinda good, when two good students spar plays from the treatises come out on their own and it makes me very proud of my students.
>>1054522
Oh, don't be a cock about it.
>>1054520
RD are good for nylon but really not ok at all for steel
>>1054542
Hey, for some stuff the RD gloves are perfect, but when anon asks to upgrade from Lacrosse gloves, then he likely needs something for steel, and RD's are simply not suitable for this.
>>1054544
>>1054546
We have about five people using RDs for Steel practise and sparring, and it's fine. May still hurt a bit, but keeps fingers in one piece.
As said, would not use them in a tournament or for I AM A DINOSAUR full speed full strength trying to beat each other senseless, but for practise and sparring with Feders they're fine.
>>1054548
>sparring with Feders they're fine.
Nope they aren't and you are really alone with your opinion on this.
>>1054314
>Be Australian
>Everything is geared to European Climate
>Every exchange rate f's us in the a'.
M8's, I can't even buy secondhand.
So we get this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA0ofDiSHaY
>>1054556
Ew. Worst coat of plates reproduction ever.
>>1054550
They're at least a bit better than standard lacrosse. Still far from ideal.
For everyone arguing about the Red Dragon gloves.
Just watch the pic in the OP.
>>1054807
https://www.fb.com/photo.php?fbid=10152438103102843&set=gm.982652145093846&type=1&theater
>>1054844
https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/2ifshz/carl_ryrberg_red_dragon_gloves_insufficient_for/
>>1054850
What's next, 9gag?
You guys wear anything to protect your ankles?
>>1059725
Shoes?
>>1059749
Dunno. It just seems like something so rare you wouldn't be doing yourself a favour by always wearing ankle protection.
>>1059753
Agreed, it is just that landhockey shin guards offer a good protection level, are light, cheap, can be worn under socks and they also come in the odd size that I need.
Hits to the foot are rare, but they also hurt like a bitch because they inevitably strike bone.
>>1059753
We've got a couple of guys who will often go for big one handed swings at the legs
Sometimes these dip enough to catch ankles
It's not super common, but I was just wondering if there's something you guys use that while uncomfortable would be preferable to shattered joints
>>1059808
Fast footwork.
Seriously. We put emphasis on that - there shouldn't be a strike to the legs you can't step away from.
>>1059818
>there shouldn't be a strike to the legs you can't step away from.
Thats a common mistake, strikes to the legs, epsecially the Gayzler are very effective. Also a Krumphau gone wrong can hit you.
Two of your 4 Blosse are your legs, and if you have an opponent that varies his attacks you will get hit there.
>>1059808
as said, shin protectors from land hockey.
>>1055026
yes http://9gag.com/gag/1518397/the-ultimate-hema-heavy-sparring-gloves
are there any good hands-on books (not pdf, ebooks etc.)/modern translations & commentaries out there of the bolognese school?
preferably longsword manuals.
So what do you guys use for forearm and elbow guards? SPES' stuff seems a little overpriced, and the elbows aren't padded at all, but maybe they're good quality. I'm just looking for something cheap that's not crap.
>>1060243
I use the Spes stuff, it's meant to be used over a jacket, that's why it doesn't include padding.
>>1060243
it's not that difficult to add some padding, btw
>>1060243
Spes (old model) for heavy stuff, escrima pad for lighter weapons.
Do you think dancing could be a good complementary sport to HEMA? Weren't swordsmen of the past skilled dancers too? I think that both dancing and fencing requires a good amount of body coordination, fitness and biomechanics. Is the dancing swordsman meme real?
>>1061337
The main reason to use the spess stuff is the all around forearm protection. Once you fight people who like that target it becomes very useful.
Also there was a broken arm last Swordfish, so it's not just about bruises.
>>1061327
The best swordsman I know is both a dancer and a boxer. Both are good for learning fundamental footwork principles.
>>1061327
Yep, back then swordfighters danced
>>1061327
Dancing and swordsmanship is a common association indeed, back then, dancing was a much more common thing for the gentry and the nobles. I can't recall but I think a treatise explicitely recommend to practice dancing as a complement, another one is for the practice of tennis for instance (Sainct-Didier).
Swordsmanship didn't exist separately from other practices such as dancing, it was a normal thing to associate them.
>>1061939
When I see newbies having problems, I ask them to do a couple dance moves together with me.
As a rule of thumb, if they can dance, like move their bodie in a harmonic fashion, they'll become good. If they can't dance, they'll usually quit hema within 6 months.
We got one exception, a guy that neither can dance nor fence for shit, but he loves swords more than anyone else, so he is faithfull to hema.
>>1061884
>>1061939
So dancing is a good complementary sport, and historically accurate. Were there other activities in which the swordsman of the past engaged? I am very interested in practising these arts from the past. In fact, I am interested in replicating the mindset of a Medieval/Renaissance/Baroque swordsman, thats why I want to find about their hobbies, to train under the old style. Do you have any information, or links to a compendium that described the ordinary life of a swordsman, their training methods and activities like dancing, playing music, and such?
>>1061995
Hunting, at least for medieval knights.
>>1054314
>Also no SCA/Reenactment please.
You forgot to add HMB
my group.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc8ugETr25c
>>1061995
>Were there other activities in which the swordsman of the past engaged?
Depends. We'll assume you mean well to do lower-gentry...
>"Royal" or Real Tennis (even backed by sources like >>1061939 said).
>Die due to gout.
>Dance knigga, dance (although these days I think any form of dance works, just not reloading animations...).
>Die due to exhaustion & having drunk nothing but wine for the past 72 hours.
>Gymnastics & wrestling.
>Die of minor injury such as compressed spine.
>Riding a horse (kinda less relevant nowadays, but you'll get quads of the gods) if you want to do mounted combat at some point.
>Die because you fell off or tried to commit a sin.
>Fucking good (what else do you do all Winter after your seventh child dies?).
>Die of STD's & I's A through Z.
>Go to war.
>Die of curable wound.
>Read a book n_.jpg
>Die because God.
>Go to the salle/school/personal instructor (don't forget most teachers where essentially the status of a tradesman).
>Die because of inexperience.
>Tournament & festivals.
>Die due to food poisoning.
>Go to war then fuck some other wenches good (what happens on campaign...).
>Die due to dagger to frenulum.
>Duel.
>Go to court for illegal duelling, then request trial by combat vis-Ã -vis a judicial duel.
>Lose.
>Die.
>Go to church and learn to love your fellow Christians... Except when they're different... In which case they're wrong...
>Die because you're a heretic.
>Tavern brawls because you fucked some other dudes comely wench with big ol' titties good.
>Die from one punch.
>Back to fucking your wife.
>Die of a preventable disease.
>Plague.
... The list goes on.
>>1061995
That's pretty cool mang. Knights were some of my first role models as a kid and I'm following a similar pursuit myself.
Like someone else said, knights were gentry and nobles, so they had to learn all the skills required for fancy dinner parties. Dining Etiquette, Dancing, Calligraphy, Poetry, Chess and other classic games, maybe some performing art like singing, playing an instrument, storytelling or riddles. Another anon said hunting, so falconry and hunting-hounds would play a part (although they had servants to do most of the work)
Not to mention all the myriad combat skills.
If you haven't already The Book of Chivalry and The Book of the Courtier would be good reads.
>>1063109
>I think any form of dance works
think again. only period folk dances for the discerning kniga.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE0avia2cCY
>>1063206
>England
top kek
>>1063180
>Knights
You are know aware that most HEMA manuals are written by civics for civics and that your image of knights is heavily skewed by Hollywood and SCA.
>>1063790
Liechtenauer's zettel starts with "Young knight, learn", and Fiore trained knights and higher-level noblemen, so everything is fine if Anon is doing late medieval stuff.
I agree his idea of knights is biased, tho.
>>1063807
>Liechtenauer's zettel starts with "Young knight, learn",
Liechtenauer is a civic and all his disciples are civics and city dwellers. The whole Fechtschule thing is deeply rooted with the new class of townsfolk and citizens. Knights are an ilusion from 200 years earlier.
>>1063867
He indeed was a civic but it seems he was deeply into knightly stuff.
Young KNIGHT, learn to love God and honour noble women,
so grows your honour; practice CHIVALRY and learn
art which adorns you and will glorify you in battle.
Also knights were not so old stuff at Liechtenauers times.
>>1063874
>He indeed was a civic but it seems he was deeply into knightly stuff.
Speculation at best, a gentle preamble doesn't make him a knight. Also, there is a shift in meaning from the medieval high german to today, Ritter, the german word for knight is rooted in the word Reiter. If you think know on knights in shiney armour riding around in the late 14th century you likely didn't do your research well.
I'm interested in this stuff but I have no equipment and no clubs around me.
I figured trying to get into the actual source material would be a good start for my current circumstances but I don't really know where to start.
Whats the road map for longsword treatises?
>>1063893
If you got no expirience whatsoever, I'd recommend to use a commented modern book about historic fencing. I'd know a few in German, but maybe some other anon can comment on English language books.
>>1063893
>>1063986
It might pay off to look at later sources that are more of a plainly explained training manual perhaps. Military sabre perhaps, which as a bonus has little binding so the lack of a sparring partner is perhaps a bit less of an issue (still a problem though).
Also you can find those in pretty much any language, so you won't have as many issues with translations.
>>1063893
I don't find it especially readable in website form and didn't properly appreciate it as a resource until I got my hands on of their compilations but everything you need is on www.wiktenauer.com
Could making gloves on a historical pattern but with modern hard plastic and padding (like all the other HEMA gloves) be a good idea? I'm not saying this for some neckbeard fashion reason, but if they worked back then it seems to me they can work today too, if made with safe materials.
>>1064000
Hard plastic, steel mesh, perforated steel. They should work and be light.
>>1064004
Go for it, if it works I might buy a pair!
>>1064007
Sure, i just need a workshop.
Then i could make gauntlet inspired mesh gloves and armet/close helm inspired masks.
Alright so my friends originally bought a bunch of shinai when first starting out but since we've moved on to steel they just kinda sit unless we're messing around.
Are shinai considered a decent training tool for when you don't want to completely gear up/learning the basics?
Is there any way to make them a good training tool if not?
>>1064114
Maybe they could make for a decent hewing spear head?
>>1064114
We use them for t-shirt fencing, the pain feedback is usefull, keeps you from performing suicidal attacks.
Thursting with shinais however is highly dangerous, so no thrust fencing only.
>>1064210
I like this. How much shinai cost? Thinking about buying a few.
>>1064730
I'm pretty sure I paid like 30 for mine. I have 4 of different lengths and even put a cross guard on 2.
>>1064114
I know at least one smith that used to make steel handles that you can insert a shinai into so it's close to the same weight and balance as a longsword.
Anyone here ever set a HEMA club by himself here, or know of anyone who did? (By himself I mean without an instructor.)
There isn't a single HEMA class in my entire country, and I really want to get into it. Is it possible? What'd be the best way to do so?
>>1065343
We started HEMA in our area pretty much, though other clubs spawned in other cities without our help too.
I don't know about the best way, but we used a combination of reading and experimenting, and attending events where we could take classes from people with more experience.
I think my biggest recommendation is to do your best to avoid endogamy. Get out there and fight outside your club.
Oh and practice space is probably the big issue. We were able to get free space from a town as a non-profit, depending on where you live you might be able to just use public parks, or you might need to rent something (which is a PitA for a starting club with few members).
>>1065354
Unless there's a specific need for a closed room with floor and such, we're fine. We have a forest where we currently train in (With padded weapons and no guidance, it's more like 'let's fight until we understand what works). Nobody else is into HEMA here, but we have Arnis, Kendo an Armed Combat Tactics (Most people don't know this one, look it up on youtube if you want). Would those work?
>>1065405
Any martial art can help you a bit, but ultimately your time would be best spent on actual HEMA.
Have you taken a look at the HEMA Alliance? (http://www.hemaalliance.com/) Helping people do HEMA is kind of their thing, though mostly in the US.
Really i'd recommend to find a source or at least a weapon to start with, get some books and start working on that. Travel as much as you can to learn from others.
The Kali and ACT guys might be up for a spar where you can fight someone who does something completely different, which should be useful. Kendo is a bit iffier as they train towards a very specific ruleset.
HEMA doesn't do it as good as ARMA
Do any other HEMA bros absolutely cringe when they watch movies and shoes with medieval fighting? Like the new GoT season is actually going to have a guy duel wielding long swords! It triggers me soo much.
>>1065683
Na, I can enjoy a movie even with shitty fencing, I am not a sperglord. However, people trying to lecture me on swordsmanship with their vast knowhow from anime and manga is a bit cringworthy, however it is alos a great opportunity to troll like a boss.
>>1065683
Sometimes of course but not really since I've studied a little theatre and understand everything on stage is exaggerated and simplified for the audience. That and I find actual longs word Sparring not very entertaining to watch bar the odd technical highlight.
It all seems silly to us in the know now but at the end of the day almost all of us are in HEMA because we were once enamoured by stage
Combat of one movie or other, usually one set in space if we're honest to ourselves.
Game of thrones is a shame since it started off pretty strong but TV is full of 'experts' who want to get paid and the audience and by extension then the crew don't give a shit on their legitimacy. I've been credited as an expert on a French TV show on a sport I knew
Nothing about simply because I was just their playing it at the time. I think the industry just has a lot of stage combat jobsworths who have no interest in learning actual swordsmanship but continue to get work because of their film experience.
Things are changing slowly though I thought the Fassbender MacBeth had some surprisingly authentic dagger techniques throne in.
I stopped watching Game of Thrones a few years ago but it continues to fuel interest in HEMA so long may it last.
>>1065683
Trouble is, HEMA swordsmanship would not be as entertaining. It's not flashy, the fights don't even last long enough as to provide for good running time.
>>1065683
nah, I'm not an autist
>>1067012
there are a few good tries though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLxvJCjFOU4
>>1067012
You could choreograph it and take advantage of the gazillion techniques we have access too. It sure should be a step up over the same 4 cuts, one thrust, and angry hilt pushes.
> start hema last september
>not a lot of sparring, lot of footwork and techniques
>today they make us spar
>get my ass kicked and angrily take my mask off
>teacher says I got better and hes proud I made so much progress
I don't know, I'm quite salty because I landed maybe 1 strike against the 3 of my opponent, but on the other hand they said I got better and seemed actually very impressed. I feel like for me, the only important thing is winning, if I dont I feel super salty..
anyone had something like this happen?
>>1067114
Humble pie is delicious you idiot. If you maintain this sort of attitude, you'll never make it far in any kind of competitive endeavour.
The moment you realize that there's always somebody stronger out there, is the moment that that self-improvement fire really gets lit.
>>1067114
>I feel like for me, the only important thing is winning, if I dont I feel super salty.
Welcome to fencing son, when it gets emotional the fun starts.
Seriously, try to work on your self control,stay focused and deliver your techniques as good as you can.
For improvement, if possible record some of your fights and check them for what you lack, then work on it.
>>1067201
I dont think you got what I'm saying, its not that I feel entitled to win or something like that, I know very well I just started out and there's tons of people better than me. It's just that I don't feel any particular improvement unless I win or at least keep up with my opponent, so I don't actually notice if I improved or not, the example was simply "i thought I fought like shit instead they told me I got better".
>>1067208
That's good advice, thank you! Probably looking at how I fight from another perspective will make it easier to see where I need work
>tfw want to into cool cars
>tfw most are impractical for HEMA or impossible to use
How do my fellow Americans cope? What do you drive? Does your club use other people's cars to ship gear?
I don't want to own an suv/crossover/hatchback/wagon/pickup. But my HEMA gear collection grows heavier.
>>1068012
Anything with a back seat? Even if it's only one fit for hobbits.
>>1068012
We have a guy with a Jeep. Is that cool?
But seriously if you're going alone i have no idea what the problem is. You could use a Ferrari and still have space for the stuff most likely.
>>1065683
i usually sit in the movies laughing my ass off during redicoulus fight scenes or "things that don't work with swords" scenes
>>1068012
What gear to you have that takes so much space
>>1068452
it's probably american sized gear
>>1068476
So something like this then?
>>1068012
On that topic, I just bought a Golf travel case, flights to hema events just get complicated when you gotta bring your hardware.
MATT EASTON BTFO
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rFVbo8dZS0
>>1073500
I don't think you know what that means.
>>1073500
>Stocatta School of Defence
I don't think anyone cares about anything these larpers have to say.
http://youtu.be/SvbC_p4_kGE
In fact I don't think anyone cares about anything Australian HEMA havr to say, they're like 10 years behind in equipment and skill. Plus I think pic related is from there.
Thoughts?
>>1073994
We'll never actually see 'em
>>1073994
Lets wait for the website.
>fuck does this glove look cool
Hey, how are matches in HEMA? How are the points taken and such?
I've practiced Kendo for about 2 years now, and coming from Norway (vikings fuck yeah) I have always been intrigued by HEMA. But never really understand how matches are fought, since in Kendo it's pretty easy since they watered it down after the 2nd world war to the sport we have today.
I have found some info on this, but it's very varied and just makes my head spin.
So how are the rules actually? Found one site that stated that it is just an exercise and (of course) a rebirth of (duh) Historial European Martial Arts. Which is fucking awesome.
>>1074089
In short, everybodies rules are a little different, there is no unified ruleset.
here is a ruleset from a fairly prominent tournament in the Netherlands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rynW4Fr5CU
Rules also differ for different weapons, in rapier for example the thrust is always worth more than the cut.
>>1074089
Generally if you worry about hitting the other guy and not getting hit before, at the same time, or for a short time after you're set.
Then maybe certain targets or better hits score more points and such, but that can vary a lot by event, weapon, year...
There's nothing set in stone yet.
>>1074102
>>1074108
I was thinking that, because it is relative new, a future congress where the schools meet up and talk on just such rules. Because it would be awesome to see proper matches, even though it would prolly lead to a simplification of the arts themselves (which is what you see if you compare Pre-wartime Kendo and modern Kendo).
And would prolly lead to that some Weapons cannot be faced against eachother, leading to a rather odd popularity contest. Some "odd" weapons would not be able to contest against eachother.
>>1074145
Well right now longsword wins the popularity contest by a wide margin and most tournaments are about it, though they often also include other tournaments for other weapons.
But there's more than a few of us who think having a variety of rulesets is actually a good thing as they put emphasis on different parts of fencing and diminish gaming the rules.
They can still be gamed, but you probably won't see anybody training specifically to game them, as it won't do them any good under other rules.
>>1074034
That's also my fear
>>1074145
What do you mean by "proper matches"? What about them in their current state isn't proper?
>>1074145
>Because it would be awesome to see proper matches, even though it would prolly lead to a simplification of the arts themselves (which is what you see if you compare Pre-wartime Kendo and modern Kendo).
Since the goal of HEMA tends to be to approach the "koryu", such a simplification would be a considerable failure.
If we want a European equivalent to postwar kendo, there's always modern fencing. Or we can skip the "equivalent" and just practice kendo, with the added bonus of possibly bothering the "cultural appropriation" crowd and ultranationalists alike.
>And would prolly lead to that some Weapons cannot be faced against eachother, leading to a rather odd popularity contest. Some "odd" weapons would not be able to contest against eachother.
It's extremely rare for tournaments to do mixed weapons.
What kind of kettlebell exercise would you recommend to a hemaist?
>>1074041
Anyone else noticed the phallic connotation of this pic, or am I the only pervert here?
>>1074683
Sorry man, it's you.
>>1067727
>"i thought I fought like shit instead they told me I got better".
I have that pretty often. Guess it's just hard to tell from a first person perspective how well you're doing.
Winning, in any case, isn't much of a metric. You might be having a good day while your opponents have a bad one, your opponents might just be even worse than you, or maybe you just got lucky.
So don't rely on that too much.
>>1074683
You're not the only pervo here, but that one is one you and you only.
>>1074230
>Since the goal of HEMA tends to be to approach the "koryu", such a simplification would be a considerable failure.
It's a pretty bold statement to say that HEMA have the same goal as koryu, many people in HEMA know nothing of koryu for starters (not like they should). But maybe it was a bad phrasing or I didn't understand the intent of the sentence...
Nothing to say about the fact that stated simplification would be a failure, I don't even know if a unique set of tournament rules would be possible to develop right now given the state of HEMA in the world (not that unified that is).
>>1074145
>a future congress where the schools meet up and talk on just such rules
that sounds like a fucking terrible idea. why would we want that?
What's wrong with the way it's done now?
>>1074920
you're right, I will keep that in mind next time!
>>1073994
Over 3 years late and completely irrelevant now that St. Mark is producing the Koenig Glove in quantity.
>>1074683
kek
cannot grasp your sword handle like that with spes gloves
>>1078856
Agreed. Unless those progauntlet things be better and cheaper, which is fairly hard to belive
>>1054354
I watch my Conan movies, then try stuff out on my little sister.
What are the differences in mechanics between an Oakeshott type XII and a type XIV? I know the XII is longer than a XIV but I don't know much about weight and balance.
Many says the XIV is the best sword for I.33 style, but the treatise shows type XII swords and I wonder why, since the XIV was the most popular sword at the time and the XII was kinda old fashioned.
>>1074151
>>1074230
>>1075017
not that guy but I think some consistent rules on equipment would be beneficial
having uniform standards would make people more comfortable investing in equipment that they know will be acceptable to use universally, or will enable people to practice using equipment similar to equipment that any given tournament provides if they choose to do so
this of course saying nothing about scoring or rules of conduct etc
>>1078920
Incoming gear manufacturer war though...
>>1078856
That's why they're rushing now. A lot of people who waited for the progauntlets are going for the st marks now. The more progauntles team waits, the more customers they'll lose. They won't waste time anymore I guess. Finally.
>>1073932
You try being the only HEMA group in thousands of kilometres, with equipment routinely costing hundreds more for the exact same product.
>>1079051
I get that, but if I was in their position I wouldn't be making videos telling the rest of the community how what they wear is wrong.
>>1079130
I do think they have a point, but wearing shitty coats of plates isn't a great answer either. It makes me think they don't thrust much.
>>1079051
No excuse for the meme mask, tho
>>1079130
>videos telling the rest of the community how what they wear is wrong
URL?
>>1075017
>But maybe it was a bad phrasing or I didn't understand the intent of the sentence...
Something like that yes. I meant that HEMA tries to recreate the old European martial arts, to revive the "European koryu". But without a living tradition, well, we're never going to get there, so we settle for approaching as close as we can.
With this, letting what we've managed to make of the art slip into a simplified sporting variant looses the H in HEMA. Unless perhaps we go all out for sticking to, say, Mair-like fechtschule competitions.
>>1079232
Still, I wouldn't say that HEMA (of the old lost days) were ever exactly like koryu, who were for starters deeply seated in a familial, local and feudal particular tradition. Ryu-ha were passed typically in the family (through adoption or not), that definitely changes some perspectives, especially about the notion of possession of an intellectual patrimony. Also they were ''mostly'' esoteric teachings when I would argue that the old European masters were trying for a larger audience. The legacy thing is pretty specific to each tradition. I think I understand what you meant to say when you wrote ''European Koryu'', but still, western traditions of swordsmanship aren't that easy to translate (and vice versa) to Japanese ones, and that's not about the way they do techniques but more, who they taught, how, how the system was passed, etc.
Besides I think there is somehow a misconception about koryu (not saying that's what you believe), to think that what there is now is some kind of mint state of the schools of old, as if they passed through the ages unchanged and not wanting to change, but they both did and do. Contrary to that, I see HEMA people trying to approach an ideal of ''the old times'' without ever being able to achieve it, because well, they don't know what they don't know and it's impossible to prove definitely that you're right.
Much ado for nothing from my part I guess...
It seems normal to compare koryu to HEMA, but there are more than the techniques and I don't think that the ''spirit'' (not that the term says much) of the Japanese ryu-ha are the same than the actual overall HEMA one.
I thought at first that you were implying that HEMA people basically looked at koryu and said ''heh, let's do this but by reviving our own traditions'', and too my (limited) experience, HEMA people aren't that knowledgeable and interested in koryu (then again not like they should).
>>1079567
Yes, they're different. Just as kendo and modern sport fencing ain't the same either. I was just after the rough relationship of current-yesterday's-reallyfuckingold, making the differences largely irrelevant.
Not sure it's the right place to ask, but does anyone have good videos that show glaive or Montante/greatsword work?
>>1079727
Marozzo first assalto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrDKaCcXeVA
This whole channel as it seems.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl3qmjnhr-1QRf6_bsjhz3w/videos
>>1079727
>greatsword
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0S3cjd-emk
>>1078920
Doesn't SPES already fill that role? Either way, I've never heard anyone complain about inconsistent equipment rules. Is it really that much of a problem?
>>1079051
>You try being the only HEMA group in thousands of kilometres, with equipment routinely costing hundreds more for the exact same product.
get gud
>>1080098>>1078920
There's more than just SPES, but almost any gear producer follows some sort of "commonly-set-yet-never-agreed" standard for protective equipmet. I've sometimes read "longsword-proofed" and such things for instace
>>1080098
It's a problem only with those who refuse hema jackets for medieval-ish coat of plates, but nobody will ever meet these guys in any tournament so imho it's not
Do you put your dominant hand closer to the pommel or the crossguard when using a longsword?
>>1080479
crossguard.
>>1080294
Is this the main teaching of master Lignitzer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG6W80BiY94
will just leave it here
>>1081583
One should be free to have the feder he wants if said feder is historically accurate.
>>1081583
Weapon check before tournament should be sufficient for granting safety standards, so nobody walks in with a ueber-stiff blade or a damaged one. It's very common to provide a safety tip, which is a very good solution imo
Weapon makers (>>1081592
dunno why are we only talking bout feders now, no big deal tho) are even more than protective gear makers, so yeah basicaly one should be free to have the weapon he wants. YET some tournaments (and that's the case of Swordfish) do provide weapons to their competitors. Different choices I guess
>>1054556
M8's, he's at it again!
>Why HEMA armour is STILL WRONG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYv7_ox-FLQ
Jesus, Australia really needs to get up to speed. NO ONE WEARS HOME MADE LARP-TIER STUFF ANY MORE.
Just save up and buy it you povo cunts.
>>1081684
It's been a week. What the fuck.
>>1081684
So... do they not thrust at all? Because that gear is full of holes. Including the sternum having no plates whatsoever.
They're called Stocatta for fucks sake.
>>1081706
they thrust in ur moms pussy m8
Anyone got a list of nylon wasters/manufacturers?
>>1083271
Black fencer and rawlings, as far as I know. Probably there's more.
Thoughts on Neyman stuff? I've read some good review recently.
>>1083800
fucking three legged mutants, they have way to many advantage in footwork
>>1083328
Bonus question: best feders for amerifags?
>>1084302
Albion Meyer is top tier, then there's Darkwood Armoury and Castille Armoury I guess. Best quality/price ratio is for Eurofag feders tho (Danelli, Regenyei, Ensifer...)
>>1084302
just google hema training longsword compendium
>>1084533
>Albion Meyer is top tier
But it's short
>>1084676
Oh hey, it's that meme again. It's perfectly within the range of historical examples.
Albion Meyer is overpriced, has sharp points on the schilt, is too hard and will fuck with other peoples swords, and it's also too short and light. Regenyei is top tier. Reliable and all rounders.
>>1084731
It's not too short at all, but it is overpriced. Just get a regenyei. Workhorse reliability, handle well, back folded tip, and good customer service.
So there's no weapons arts schools in my town, and I'm wanting to learn to fight with a few different weapons. Going to make some sparring weapons with my brother and do my best to learn from treatise, was hoping to get some recommendations. The weapons I'm interested in learning are:
Knife (or dagger, same shit.)
Quarter staff and spear (as in long sticks I can pick up and improvise out in the woods.)
Stick/cudgel (again, for being easily improvised.)
Whatever short sword would be closest to a machete.
A hatchet/tomahawk, if there are any treatise for these (don't see any in the database.)
And bayonet (I'm big into guns, and just think this would be fun.
Also using dagger in one hand and stick/sword/axe in the other.
So what treatises would you guys recommend I look at for the different weapons?
>>1085267
Oh, and I only speak/read English.
>>1085267
>Whatever short sword would be closest to a machete
I'd say dussack and messer. You can find Meyer dussack in english online.
>>1085267
knife: try Marozzo
quarterstaff and spear: Fiore gives you fery few plays (techniques) and almost identical, so fairly easy to get
stick: there's a brief baton part in Fiore, plus a couple plays with tree branches (yes!). for two handed clubs see Mair
machete: yup, Meyer's dussack or Leckuchner's Messer only in case you have some guard on your machete thing
tomahawk: dunno, but for similar weapons with long handle check Meyer's hellebarde or some pollaxe treatise like Fiore's, "le jeu de la hache", Talhoffer and so on
bayonet: maybe Alfred Hutton if I'm not mistaken, also look for modern japanese stuff as bayonet fencing is still practiced as a sport
sword and dagger: there's plenty of this in almost any treatise from Italian Renaissence
anyway, check wiktenauer and search by weapon or topic
>>1085267
>Knife (or dagger, same shit.)
>same shit
ew, no
>>1085655
A dagger is just a type of knife.
>>1085994
A dagger is a weapon, a knife is a tool
>>1086117
>Meyer, JOACHIM MEYER FFS! He has about most complete treatise on the staff there is.
Achtung! Meyer fanboy detected!
>>1086137
Plus it has no cutting edge, only a point, and so no cutting techniques , lots of blocking with the naked arm, plus lots of stuff where you grip the blade and use it as a lever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6uOfXSfG1A
If you are looking for knife fighting, check for the Italians, they love it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eAwhGErGGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp0earokTbQ
And in case you and your gf/bf are into heavy S&M and she does not respect your safe word, then this traditional Sicilian martial art will come in handy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NxqXEzqH4M
>>1086177
> Plus it has no cutting edge, only a point, and so no cutting techniques , lots of blocking with the naked arm, plus lots of stuff where you grip the blade and use it as a lever.
That's only rondel daggers, and not even all rondel daggers.
>>1086165
True, I fucking love Meyer, but you gotta admit that he wrote the most complete work on the staff plus his shit works!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_eoagOT91U
>>1086188
Might be true, but pretty every Dagger manual north of the Alps treats them as blunt objects with a very stabby point. Mind you, half of them are armored techniques mostly.
>>1085994
Yes it is. So, with a dagger you can do everything you can do with a knife, but with other kind of knives you can't do everything you can do with a dagger. Basic set theory.
The only English translation for Meyer I can find in the database goes to an unrelated website, am I missing something?
>>1086189
Never studied quarterstaff, so dunno who wrote moar about that. Maybe he did, maybe Swetnam, dunno.
Nevertheless YOU FUCKIN RIGHT JOACHIM MEYER IS PURE AWESOMENESS!!
>>1086412
Some very nice guy made Forgengs translation available here on /asp/ a while ago
>>1086177
>Plus it has no cutting edge, only a point, and so no cutting techniques , lots of blocking with the naked arm, plus lots of stuff where you grip the blade and use it as a lever.
Actually there's plenty of dagger cutting(they call it daga so yeah it's a fuckin dagger not a knife) in treatises: check Marozzo and other Renaissence itafags
>>1086443
Anyone got a link?
>>1086570
modern italian or whater knife fighting got almost nothin to do with historical dagger which made use of cutting techniques in Italy
What's a good fencing helm to get? And should I wait for these Pro Gauntlets?
>>1086984
Any FIE mask works. PBT and Leon Paul have supposedly stronger (and more expensive) HEMA masks.
>>1086990
I was considering getting the Absolute Force helm from PurpleHeart. Are they overpriced/bad quality?
>>1086999
I've never tried it but...
>It is designed for maximum head protection. It is CE 1 (350N) Certified.
CE1 also means weaker mesh than FIE (which is CE2 AFAIK), so i wouldn't buy that.
>>1087034
much obliged!
>>1086999
I just bought one, it's too big, but aside from that it seems to be great quality, tried hitting myself with my synthetic longsword all over the head. Pretty much everything is covered.
But I have never owned another fencing mask so im not sure if the price is good for what you get.
just made this. i hope its not too retarded looking. decent for tactile feel and target practice.
>>1087333
Nice trips.
Honestly, I had a similar idea after my last practice. After sparring, we did a cool-down drill where your partner has their sword in a longpoint position and you maneuver around them and cut or stab.
Got me thinking of something like a wooden dummy used in Chinese martial arts, but you attach a sword to one or more of the limbs.
>>1087348
its pretty fun. its great for getting the feel of re positioning the opposing sword. obviously a training partner is superior but this is better than nothing.
>>1086575
Here you go: http://www.mediafire.com/download/byl72m2jmwtla5v/Meyer.pdf
>>1086984
>And should I wait for these Pro Gauntlets?
They're taking their sweet time about it...
>>1086437
>maybe Swetnam,
How about no.
Anyone have The Art of the Two-Handed Sword by Ken Mondschein?
>>1087348
a sturdy torso and head made of pieces of an old car tire? will probably last for a lifetime
>>1087348
>>1087333
I made one a few years ago and honestly it was a fantastic training aid especially for entry for grappling.
My only two cents on the matter is it's difficult to get a stick long enough to simulate a weapon and the opponent outstretched arm let alone a one that can stand up to even light battery from even a nylon.
>>1073932
>mask pic
Used to see people do this when I fenced.
Even a different colour mask is surprisingly distracting
I was reading about Angelo Viggiani and I failed to find a proper readable version of his "tree of blows", it's either a poor version of the original or uncomplete charts inspired by it.
Does anyone have a proper image of it or at least a text that describes said tree ?
>>1089637
Mine is a 5 foot fiberglass yard marker. Works great.
>>1089758
If the color of a mask distracts you, you are likely not focused on what you should be.
>>1091808
If you need to try distract your opponent with a meme mask, you're probably shit.
>>1091817
I doubt that they have distraction in mind, more like being a special funny snowflake.
>>1091863
Or just finding your mask more quickly when all the equipment ends up in a messy pile while travelling/training/storing?
>>1091914
Just put your fucking name on it like everyone else instead of painting darth maul or deadpool or whatever neckbeard shit you can think of
>>1092009
I sort of agree with you but then I catch myself on and realise I'm talking about swordfighting for fun and fencing is already a pretty shit spectators sport (probably the root of it's demise into the entertainment age) and everyone wearing matching black gear really doesn't help that.
Generally speaking I don't like faces and things on masks myself but having painted my mask I have immense respect for them because shading and detailing anything coherent on a mesh is a real feat.
I painted mine essentially with guesswork occasionally checking a mirror 8 feet away to see how it looked.
Mines a Red Dragon mask anyway so anythings better than that red liner.
>>1092009
Provided that they're taking the actual HEMA element seriously, as in learning the techniques effectively and putting in real effort, then I don't see why it should matter so much.
If someone is acting like a stupid LARPer or suchlike, then yeah that's a problem. But if not, let them dress however they like provided it doesn't physically impede study and practice.
By whining about "neckbeard shit" you're only showing off your own insecurities.
So how on Earth do you get into this stuff if there's no club near you?
>>1092372
You start one.
>>1092372
Or you move.
>>1092372
>>1092396
>>1092407
>Falconry, of course, is the art of raising and training birds of prey-hawks, falcons, and even eagles-to hunt. It is a very, very old art, one that requires a tremendous amount of study into the life and behaviors of these birds. It also demands an amazing patience to tame them and to accommodate their highly strung natures. Falconers typically spend several hours a day with their birds. This falconer met a man who said he wanted to take up falconry but he was afraid that his wife would not adapt well to having a fierce-looking raptor as a permanent addition to their backyard. What should he do? The falconer's reply: "Get a new wife."
>>1092752
D. Lowery
Daily reminder that these two are the most respected HEMA in instructors in the Southern Hemisphere.
>>1092009
Sure the name written on the back and a paint on the mesh are equally easy to spot between other masks.
>>1092841
Not that I dislike alt-rock, but the quote is by "Dave Lowry", not Lowery.
>>1092396
We really need a "how to start a club" copypasta here. In every thread there's someone asking how to do it.
I'm gonna paint Pepe on my mask. A dedication to this thread.
does anyone else have a club dickhead?
>>1097358
if you mean a person thats always causing scenes, and generally causing problems, yeah we had one, the teachers threw him out
Tell us about your club dickhead anon
>>1097516
Not a lot to say, to be honest I wouldnt want anyone from the club find out I posted here and also I started not long ago so I saw him be a total jerk only once (even though he is quite stuck up and noisy in general), when he was arguing loudly with someone outside the gym during the lesson. They also told me he was often trying to start fights (both verbal and not so verbal). He is known around here for being the kind of guy who gets angry and mean easily. I'm glad I didn't have the chance to get on his bad side, I know it would have happened sometime, one way or another
>>1092009
Are you still salty about this?
It's been more than a month.
>>1096078
Daily reminder that yanks can't handle the banter.
>>1097358
We had one. I never understood if he was a troll, a retarded, or both. But he eventually left and joined a HMB club. Nothing of value lost for us.
>>1096078
And?
>>1096078
Hasn't the guy on the left been doing HEMA all his life or some shit? I had a friend who trained with him once, apparently he was very experienced.
>>1098185
Not all his life, but i think he was one of the guys who started HEMA more or less.
>>1098188
Is that it.
Any opinions on various gorgets? I'm thinking of picking up the PBT gorget since I'm also going to get their 1600 N mask.
>>1098559
PBT is best gorget.
>>1098559
I asked for opinions between PBT and Red Dragon and i was told to go with PBT. Haven't bought it yet though.
>>1098587
The protection is great, but my hands are on the thin side for their length so there's a lot of useless bulk there for me. I'm getting custom sized SparringGloves soon.
>>1098592
Are they as ungainly as they look? I'm wondering about throws and close play work where hand mobility is more important.
>>1098598
The SPES heavy don't really let you open the hand fully, at least not without modification. So i think you'd have a really hard time grabbing anything. With those on i think you'd be better off by trying to push without grabbing.
Also switching to half swording is probably annoying.
Disclaimer: I don't own them, but that's what i've gathered from handling them a bit and what i was told by the owner. I think he was going to remove some rivets so he could open the hand more easily.
>>1098606
Have you tried the sparring gloves in comparison?
>>1098626
Nope, i pretty much only chose them because i have weird hands and wanted a custom size.
I went with the separate index finger, another club mate went with the normal hoof/ninja turtle model, we'll see how they work.
>>1054314
>Get a sword length barbell
>attach weights to the end
>swing it around a lot
>>1063081
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance." - Confucius
The quote doesn't mean what you think it means, though.
