Do snails have a nervous system, do snails feel pain?
I live in the countryside and go out for midnight walks, and very often step on snails by accident.
Instead of leaving them to suffer, I make sure they die fully now.
I guess I don't know anything about how lower-animals perceive reality. Is it immoral to step on snails?
I honestly wouldn't worry about it unless you were going around doing it on purpose
no sense putting yourself at risk and slowing yourself down on your walks checking for a snail every step
>>2135190
>unless you were going around doing it on purpose
Would it make a difference if I was doing it on purpose? The snail suffers the same. Morally, what's the difference between intent and accidental. The snail doesn't distinguish, it just suffers the same.
I just don't want to cause unnecessary suffering, and have concerns about judgement in the after-life.
>>2135193
the difference is what kind of person that'd make you if you were seeking them out just to kill them without purpose vs them just being unavoidably in the way
>>2135195
It's not that simple. There are degrees of intention. I could avoid walking at night altogether, but I don't. Compared to people around me, I kill more snails than most. I could prevent this, I know I could, but I don't. This doesn't count for anything? I don't think it's about how many, or intent. I just want to know if it actually is something I should concern over, if the snail does hurt. If a snail is just a mindless automation that doesn't think or feel, and isn't bothered one way or the other, then I wouldn't even concern about it. But I'm assuming snails feel pain like we do and would prefer not to be stepped on. It doesn't have the capacity to understand about intention or anything like that. It doesn't matter to it.
>>2135197
it's pretty easy to test a snail's stimulus to anything that can harm it so I would assume that they do feel pain
though i'd imagine being stepped on is a quicker death than anything they'd experience naturally
>>2135208
Most of the time it's not a clean kill. Just a broken shell, which they won't survive from.
I'm fairly certain that things like snails, insects, and most invertebrates are simple I/O biological machines.
When someone steps on my toe, a lot of shit happens and I say "Ow, fucker, that hurt."
When you step on a spider or something, I feel like it's more like a computer, simply registering the damage, determining the severity, and relaying that to the peripheral nervous system so it can move away from the danger.
Some will argue that humans also do the latter, which is true, but there is a layer on top of that in which we actually have a conscious experience of the pain. I don't think invertebrates have that top layer of sensory information.
But that's just my two cents. It's entirely possible some hyper-advanced hyper-evolved lifeform is looking down on us saying "Look at the poor, mindless biological I/O machines"
>>2135187
>Do snails have a nervous system,
not in the sense you do.
but yes. sort of.
>do snails feel pain?
no.
they engage in nociception but can't feel pain.
>>2135211
Differant anon, but there are worse things to step on and kill than snails.
It'd be an odd god that severely punishes you for this, but would forgive consumption of life, plant or otherwise.
Don't lose sleep over it, but I guess avoid it if you see it. Ending its suffering is merciful, though
>>2135208
>he thinks reacting to injury is the same as feeling pain
oh good a nociception thread
>>2135217
Can a list be drawn up then of what creatures don't feel pain and which do. Some simplified breakdown of what to feel guilty about and what not to feel guilty about. What about frogs for instance. I have stepped on them before. What about cats?
>>2135218
>but there are worse things to step on and kill than snails
Of course. But that knowledge doesn't change anything for the snail. I just want to know if the snail gives a shit about being stepped on, if it's wrong.
>>2135221
What's wrong with that?
Would you be so critical if it was a nice thread about how much you love your cat.
>>2135226
By all means keep going.
>>2135187
>Snails can move
How would they move without a nervous system?
>Be me
>Chatting with my brother on a hike, just bout stupid shit
>Brother steps on a snail even though he could have easily just lifted his foot a few inches more
>I ask him why he did that
>He looks at me and shrugs and says 'it's not important, snails don't feel pain'
>Do you know that for sure? Has anyone proved it?
>Well no, but you need cognition to recognize pain, otherwise it's just a response
>I punch him as hard as I can in the arm
>He asks why the fuck I did that as he starts to cry
>Does it hurt?
>'Ya, what the fuck!'
>I just wanted to make sure you were human bro. Too bad the snail can't tell us if it hurts or not, maybe we should study it more just to make sure.
>He looks at me but doesn't say anything else
>Watches where he steps for the rest of the hike
I don't care about the pain. I care more about eliminating an individual life and point of view, regardless of how minimal and simplistic it is. I'm not averse to it if I need to do it, but it's the only life that little guy's gonna have.
>>2135295
you're a faggot desu desu
>>2135222
>Can a list be drawn up then of what creatures don't feel pain and which do.
no, there's no agreement on it atm.
most ethologists agree inverts can't feel pain. Not ALL ethologists, just most. Most also agree fish can't feel pain. A significant number including some of the biggest names in ethology (e.g. Temple Grandin) tend to believe fish, amphibians and reptiles probably can't feel pain.
Old School ethologists believe nothing below a monkey or a crow can feel pain.
What ethologists believe doesn't really matter though. There is no good way of knowing that an animal (or plant or rock or chemical) CAN'T feel pain. That's impossible to demonstrate.
>>2135295
>Starts to cry
What a little bitch
>>2135187
Snails react to pain, so, I would say they feel it.
Just stomp them if you tread on one enough that there is serious damage. If you can kick it off the path to one side before you stomp because snails will eat dead snails so you don't want to attract more to that point.
The best you can do is avoid it.
Snails don't notice when they're stepped on really.
>>2135355
no, they react to injury.
injury isn't the same as pain
and reacting isn't the same as feeling.
>>2135217
> they engage in nociception
I was looking for this
>>2135371
because you've been on /an/ a long time and wanted to nostalgia on memes or because you're new here and wonder if /an/ can into science?
>>2135213
I like this post a lot
>>2135187
Maybe you should have a broom with you like those Jains do.
Anyway I don't think we understand these things well enough yet. It's good that you're thinking about it (logically but with concern at heart), it says a lot about you as person.
>>2135187
who cares? it's a snail
>>2135529
Who cares? They're just humans.
-Old god A to Old god B
>>2135335
Thanks for sharing this.
How did you find this out yourself, what was your process towards learning this?
Are there resources you can share?
>>2136455
>what was your process towards learning this?
I took Introduction to Animal Behavior taught by Dr. Grandin at CSU as part of my degree program.
You can pick up the same stuff by reading some ethology papers on pain. Just go on Google Scholar and enter "pain in (whatever animal). Or even Wikipedia articles on pain in animals. I particularly enjoy the Wikipedia article on pain in fish. If you see a statement that interests you just look up the citation and see if you can read it online. There's a lot of info out there.
A. They have a nervous system
B. Define pain
>>2136458
Thanks again. Grateful for this.
>>2136481
my pleasure.
Don't feel too bad anon. You aren't doing it on purpose. If you have time, I say kill them if you accidentally crack their shells.
Snails can feel pain. It might be different from how we do though.
>>2137068
Again, it's not the feeling bad bit that counts. It's whether the snail feels pain. Choosing to feel bad about the action doesn't help the snail, and that's all that matters. I'm only concerned about not causing suffering.
My dog cought a skink today, I put it out of its misery by smashing its head with a rock.
