>Insects are conscious, egocentric beings, according to a new paper that also helps to explain why and likely when consciousness first evolved.
>Recent neuroimaging suggests insects are fully hardwired for both consciousness and egocentric behavior, providing strong evidence that organisms from flies to fleas exhibit both.
>Consciousness comes in many levels, and researchers say that insects have the capacity for at least one basic form: subjective experience.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/insects-are-conscious-claims-major-paper-that-could-show-us-how-our-own-thoughts-began-a7002151.html
http://news.discovery.com/animals/insects/insects-have-consciousness-self-awareness-and-egos-160418.htm
http://mentalfloss.com/article/79341/insect-brains-are-conscious-study-argues
eat shit, bugguy.
>>2112396
>I use my hands to write novels.
>ants have hands
>ants must write novels
the argument from analogy doesn't work.
>>2112400
it's more like
>I use my eyes to see
>ants have eyes
>ants must see
>>2112401
no, if you read the stuff OP posted it clearly admits we don't actually know what parts of the brain are responsible for consciousness, and the ants having parts similar to ours is by no means good evidence they're conscious.
the better evidence for insect consciousness is behavioral. Anatomical analogy is meaningless without something else to confirm it.
It wouldn't surprise me. I'm still a little confused.
I know I exist, relative to certain points in time at least, as a physical collection of matter. I am less convinced my consciousness exists. To use consciousness about myself is a thought generated feedback of other assumptions. We experience synaptic activity and observe the process by being a part of it, and call this 'thought'.
This is sort of like saying we 'see' things. That is an interpretation of a sensory process, light hitting rods, cones, and further creating the perception of imagery. We process it, and in being part of the process make the leap to [I] and {see] (objects). So even 'seeing' something is a bit subjective.
When we use the term 'consciousness' about others, this too is assumption and empathy, which itself is a perceptual assumption. Its why we tend to haggle over what is anthropomorphization, and the same mental dynamic as a child who sees a balloon slip away and thinks it is 'escaping'. The assumption of self awareness is always just that.
If we need to observe physical activity to make such a judgement, then it implies a threshold. Therefore, theoretically, an entity could observe us with a higher threshold and not see anything denoting consciousness at all.
But then 'higher' is egocentric also. It only has to be different. A horse may observe us and from its ego, if any, interpret nothing about us to inspire that sort of empathy, and simply view us as erratic lumbering bags of meat no different than weather phenomenon, fleshy dust-devils whirling about.
I may be swerving into the animal Theory of Mind, and shouldn't because I don't understand it well, and don't wish to argue for or against solipsism either. I just mean that as we wander towards the abstract, physical definitions seem to become useless...
>>2112577
... I have every reason to think that my body exists and that I produce wishes. I assume things as facts, like being mortal and yet expecting to live tomorrow when there is nothing to really substantiate it more than comforting guesses.
But for all that is made about 'thought' and how ours are somehow distinguished beyond that of other animals as somehow supreme beyond complexity, I am not entirely convinced that it simply isn't a matter of perception. I am not convinced that it is physically especial, and for all the ego of "I", have no reason to really think thought of any kind really exists.
Even typing this, all it is is a battery of assumptions and reactions. Abstract relations intersect as synapses fire in no predictable way, phoneme based cues assemble from memory, and the fingers move to produce orthographic depictions in a language with the assumption that it can be interpreted.
At no point is there any reason to assume as fact that anything but synapses fired just because someone reading it in a common language empathizes with the word assembly and makes their own interpretation of it...
>>2112579
... To someone of foreign language, it is jibberish. Insisting to them that it isn't simply compounds the feeling that I have alien mental processes. Trying to relate to me for them is not dissimilar than trying to interpret what a dog is barking about. A foreigner then has to make a faith assumption that were I speaking, I am not simply mentally unwell or mal-developed. But he can't know that as a fact. At some point, he has to re-examine the assumption that I am or am not and settle on an approach towards me.
This is why people often assume foreigners who can't speak their language appear mentally deficient. Yet the same person may have a pet dog and feel they understand them completely.
Sorry for rambling. I just meant that so much of what we 'know' about ourselves is abstract assumption. So there is some human folly built into trying to understand other animals and how either of us 'think'.
I just find it an interesting topic because it invites one to do a double take on our own existence in yet another assumption: the nature and workings of the universe itself.
Taking a moment to re-assess where the person is distinguished from the matrix s/he exists in can be, if not revealing, then certainly fascinating.
Trying to find where your thoughts actually exist in the universe is a bit like the peculiar certainty that looking at mirrors will tell us something we didn't assume a moment before. And yet we look, certain we will learn something, and always surprised or re-assured depending on what we expected.
Thats how I see the universe and trying to find our thoughts in it. A great cosmic mirror where we assume what we are looking at and yet somewhat puzzled every time we look.
Further general reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness
>>2112596
Hi cockroach bro :3
>>2112596
roach guy did you write that study? is gregory test subject A?
>>2112614
Curses! Discovered again!
Iel ^^
I knew I couldn't space out and prattle that long without being recognized. Its embarrassing to be so verbose.
Thanks for reminding me that its time for Gregor to come out. Tonight's meal is burrito filling and probably pastry creme later for dessert.
As usual, he waited for me to set the habitat down for a few seconds then raced up to the food tray, but dinners an hour away.
I guess I have to moisten his donut. He keeps returning to 'sniff' it and then marching off in a little roachy huff.
the consequences of killing bugs will never be the same
>>2112623
It's cool. I really appreciate your ramblings. It's refreshing to see someone on this godawful website who considers alternate perspectives.
Surprised that Gregor isnt happy with doughnuts. Who doesn't love doughnuts!
>>2112627
Oh he does love donuts/doughnuts.
But I have to keep food moist or it can harden quickly so that his weak little jaws have trouble biting it off, his species in particular (German).
It can be a challenge, since food can harden quickly after exposure. So he has to actually have an appetite when food is delivered, or it can harden and stay that way till I moisten it.
I can only moisten once or twice, or it spoils. He is munching the donut bit now that I've softened it.
I wish I could get a better picture. I may try to use the computer screen as a back light. I almost had a pic of him doing his 'doghouse' thing the other day, poking just his head out of his shelter.
His new thing seems to be sitting atop his shelter, a paperboard tent, which sits directly below the next level with a square hole cut in the center.
Its another 'bunny' effect, where he sits below one level with just his two antennae poking out of the hole.
He's very active at the moment. As usual, he'll play himself out by dinner, then eat and shuffle back "downstairs", give himself a long bath and go into a deep sleep, body slouched and antennae totally flat and lateral.
I always like that part, seeing Roach sated, comfortable and peacefully slumbering, completely relaxed and feeling safe. Contentment is not such a common thing for the living critters of the world; its nice to know I helped make it happen somewhere for one of them.
I appreciate your kind words. I must go for a while; have a great evening.
<3
>>2112627
>It's refreshing to see someone on this godawful website who considers alternate perspectives.
ironically enough his views fit very closely with those of /an/, he just spends far more words on them than most people do.
the alternative view here is bugguy's. It's very much the minority opinion on /an/, thus its value as a trolling tool.
to be fair I do like reading the roach dude's thoughts too though.
>>2112652
Thank you. I guess it can be tiring to read, but I tend to think in detail, and then communicate the same way. I like to think the additional detail develops ideas.
I mentioned that I made Gregor Roach a new habitat recently to give him more complex terrain to explore and map with the idea of (a) giving the poor thing something new to experience, as captivity can't be fun for anything, and it did seem to improve his spirits as measured by increased activity and curiosity, and
(b) to present him with new navigation junctures to make more decisions and keep both his 'mind' sharp (inasmuch as possible for something that spends its life navigating terrain), as well as maintain reflexes and strength in dealing with different orientations, angles, surfaces and textures and spatial configurations. In short, balance and reflexes, in case a day comes after release when he has to make a fleet-footed escape from some predator.
He may or may not develop/retain some acumen in navigation ("Should I scale vertical flat surface or take time to gauge descent from horizontal to horizontal plane?"). It just seemed wholly unnatural for him to have to spend so long without challenges, to leave the poor thing running in circles all day with no choice of shelter.
"The problem is choice."
Now he has shown preferences, reflexes and something to map. Most important, he is much less stressed than in a bare jar, and his body and instincts kept as healthy as possible.
I should be able to release him in three weeks when it is warm, presumably in an alley that hosts a number of diners that I am sad to say will never notice one more roach.
I will open Gregor's habitat, stocked with starter food, and say:
"Hello, Gregor. I am Anon. I created your habitat. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably roachy."
g'nite /an/
>>2112620
Oh sorry, I didn't see your post earlier.
No, its no formal study, just things that Gregor makes me ponder, watching his behavior.
He showed up in February all alone, so he wasn't presenting any pestilence. So there was no reason to treat him as one, he was just a nymph (from a new neighbors boxes, I think) and just wanted to be warm and fed.
Normally, I leave bug visitors out the next day, but it was the dead of freezing winter here in the north. So it just became a sort of pet, and watching him made me wonder and learn. As I improved his habitat, I noticed his behavior showed choices and it made me think about our ties with him as living animals, using our neural capacity for survival and our respective interpretation of being alive. The environment brought out his 'personality'.
I got to see his last molt, which was pretty cool. In the city and with no pets, I dont get to interact with animals much, so I admit I felt a little pride in him, seeing him with brand new wings, such nice fresh 'skin' and matured to an adult. The brand new, fresh body and wings really impressed me for some reason, like seeing a birth or full recovery. It was hard not to empathize, and imagine what a great day it must've been for him, even if he probably didn't notice it that way at all.
But then thats the point; I have no idea what he does and doesn't notice, or for how long. It seems like it must've been a very personal experience for anything though, whether they can conceptualize it or not. And if they can't, thats interesting in itself.
>>2112404
>the better evidence for insect consciousness is behavioral
I don't see it in many insects, but I can't help seeing it when I interact with paper wasps. Their body language is almost on the level of dogs or cats, they way they can tell you how they're feeling.
>>2112717
>ruin them
his insane rambling is the single best thing about bug threads
it's like Alan Watts took a bunch of DMT while looking at roaches
>>2112715
I too think body language is valuable expression. It is sort of a 'face' on its own.
Isn't it odd that if there is a neck and limbs, and we are even a little familiar with its norms, we can empathize and interpret body language.
I remember learning to read Roach's antennae positions, noticing certain patterns that corresponded with certain postures and following actions.
I said I would make this a month ago, so I took to it.
>>2112717
Its not my intention to hijack threads. Likewise, I can leave the threads, withhold the contents and bumps so they aren't (gotta love this) "ruined" with less discusion. We can have slower, 2 dimensional threads. And delighting in your idea of not only what can be 'ruined' but what 'ruined' is, I offer yet another user based hardware solution:
If you look at your mouse between the left and right click buttons, you should see a wheel. Since this is your first time noticing it, I invite you to marvel and wonder at the many solutions it can provide you in your discriminating, quality thread consumption and needs. In a skilled hand, you can pass dozens of posts in mere seconds. I'm not making it up. Try it.
>>2112722
lel I might find umbrage if I didn't occasionally think that when proofreading it myself. Thanks.
>>2112717
Hey. Fuck you, guy. I look forward to Roach dude's posts every fucking day. Love reading him ramble on about insect vs human intellect and life. Some of his posts are deep as shit.
>>2112743
Thats very kind, and humbling. I am just glad that anyone finds any of it at all interesting. I just remark with the optimism that someone will share also, just a nice discussion, because they can.
That any discussion we have here could coax anyone to imagine even a just bit of something new is all we can hope to create here, and I like to think we all have that potential, and could share.
So I am just doing my little bit, sharing what I notice they way I do it, just as we all do. I just happen to a bit garrulous, and hope it incurs as little annoyance as possible.
Many thanks to all sharing or just engaged, a good evening too, and be blessed.
>>2112755
I don't agree with you at all but I still enjoy your posts.
you think more deeply than normal, and whether we arrive at the same conclusions or not I appreciate that.
>>2112771
Thank you. I appreciate the kind words.
We can't even prove other people have consciousness. The fuck?
>>2113237
This. I got mine around 19 after exposing myself to new city and people, and the first my very own big life problem. Embarrassing but true. I lived absolutely automatically, didn't even had that rebellious teen phase. You can never tell 100% about people if they "don't feel themselves as individuals" but usually it's either really poor submissive folk or people without any concept of spending time on hobby meaning personally perceptible fun activities.
>>2112404
If ants aren't at least partially conscious then explain to me how it is that they can literally domesticate and farm aphids the same way humans do livestock?
Not even fucking chimpanzees can do that.
Seen here: Gregor in his new favorite repose, doing his 'bunny' thing: sitting atop his shelter poking only his antennae out of the hole cut in the plaperboard platform above it.
Excuse the horrendous image quality: it has to be shot through a magnifying glass and then contrast edited for poor light
>>2113474
I can't speak to whether or not they have a consciousness. But it may be that we perceive a method from what is simply a result. An example may be a spider making a web. Because we see that he has accomplished a feat of engineering and geometry, we assume intent because it works to his benefit. If it did not, the creature may perish and the species dies out. Technically, it only "works" in certain environments. Were climate to shift to more wind and the environment to less suitable framework, it wouldn't likely adapt so well.
We seem to only notice that when there is a new predator or disruption from human settlement. When it is more subtle, we treat it as something of a mystery.
So there is no reason to think the spider has a plan, or even associates the web with food. It could simply be performing a restless sequence to feel comfortable, one strand after another without any thought to the one it just laid, simply responding to the result of the last giving stimulus to produce the next. Since the level of comfort increases with what we perceive as geometric fidelity to the emerging pattern, we could mistake it as a plan...
>>2113487
For example, if a child starts playing with blocks, it likely has no plan. But there will be a bottom layer to the stack. Its not that the child understands the necessity of a foundation, but to produce the next layer he has to lay the first, never having a final vision of a pyramid. But if he builds a pyramid, we might assume he had that intent and was somehow clever enough to form a base.
Likewise, the spider may simply be shoring up strands to act as a vibration amplifier and noticing the spiral becomes more and more resonant the more he keeps laying until there is no where left to spin and finally rests. That the texture of his silk also happens to ensnare something he can use as food may never actually have a cause-effect association.
I could go on about how an animal might link agitation from hunger to the oral relief in interpreting something as an oral target for mastication etc, while having no concept of "eating", but I'll leave it there.
I just mean that its another example of how we view consciousness. Its not so much that I would say an ant does or doesn't have one, but rather that our own high-complexity behaviors may in fact have very little difference in dynamics...
>>2113488
After all, we are not made of plans either, and often abstract *after* the fact of necessity. We did not, for example, ponder as a species and decide fire was a useful idea and invent it. Rather, we responded to what already existed and fidgeted with it until we "harnessed" it, then formed a repetitious behavior that had to be culturally transmitted endlessly.
This is how our species has nuclear robots roaming the surface of Mars and yet most of us could not produce fire to save our lives when doing so is considered a seminal technological turning point for our species.
Whether you give a child blocks, a spider a respite from wind or an aphid to an ant, much of what we perceive as intent from result may be misunderstood, and our own 'conscious' behavior patterns more a result than a cause, regardless of animal species, including our own.
>>2113489
I like you
>>2113493
Why thank you. I like you too.
:3
I was just think of how a roach or ant leaving a scent trail is similar to a spider laying a strand. Since the spider is no engineer and the ant no cartographer, it seems more likely that the excretion may not even be a planned, associated action, but that they can then respond to the effect they produced. Its not as if the ant deliberately creates an aroma. And while a spider can lay different textures of silk, it doesn't seem like it would be a deliberate decision. It could simply be that chemically, what comes before in excretion works well to achieve a result, and precedes something that works well for something else, sort of like the difference in emptying a bottle of salad dressing. Some constituents float, others sink, as a simplification.
If the spider relieves its silk at one point and circles, it eventually discovers the beginning of the circle. To turn outward would be to exit the cozy perimeter it may be happily surprised to find (not realizing he put it there himself). So he simply traces the inside and, like Roach, ambles about to see where it goes as nervousness dissipates, and keeps turning inward.
As the circles grow tighter and tighter, he may be "surprised" to suddenly be the beneficiary of this nice hyper-sensitive vibration amplifier where he can rest squarely in the center of and be a full-body receiver, never having to worry about something sneaking up on him. And if the web is damaged, he can investigate why his receiver seems dull in one direction and amble over to "fix" it.
Likewise, any intruder needs to be investigated, and oral exploration is one of our primal drives, to taste. If it happens to be edible or needs a few bites to stop its fussing, so much the better....
>>2113519
... I think that animals dont really grasp life and death in the way of killing something, but rather that something animate may pose a threat or curiosity. An attack is not so much to kill, because 'death' isn't a concept, but rather to render inanimate and still matter. We still tend to imbue concepts upon animal behaviors that there is no reason to believe they grasp.
I often use toddler thinking as a metric: if something has to be taught to a human child like death or reproduction, how likely is it that animals just "know" these things.
The alternative explanation is that spiders have some mystery hardware that can form a geometric plan, which seems unlikely.
For example, I just poured a drink. A human would say I knew there was coke in the fridge and fetched it. Thats all well and good, but a Buddhist might ask "Where was this knowledge, physically?" Where did it exist?
One can point to synaptic patterns retaining memory, but of what use is that as explanation if they can vary in physical arrangement so vastly. The memory is the result perceived, not a static structure. If I dream about it later, its hardly the same pattern or effect, or even relevance.
So if this is true, then of what use is it to say I "knew" anything? While it may be more complex than a spider deciding on endless left turns, how is it really physically distinguished in terms of neural interaction with the environment. The physical complexity of the matrix the biological mind can render isn't especially relevant to the effect it produces, one after the other. My brain is bigger, so whether I can fetch coke and remember my place in a post, or walk and chew gum, or balance my check book while listening to the news- none of it is especially disproportionate to the size of my primate brain. Its only a few mental tasks at any one time. That I can store more over time is only useful one opportunity at a time...
>>2113521
... ... I can just as easily lose my keys, forget my PIN number, or write write the same word twice in a note. Complexity in itself is not per se a useful metric of survival, only when there is the opportunity to apply it, and then only if it works.
I just dont think the egoist distinctions we make in our brains vs other animals necessarily comports with nature's objective criteria for survival value. For as long as we've been around, people still speculate on what the 'purpose' of males having nipples is, as if there is some reason for everything in nature as intent. We know why it occurs, and yet we still look for meaning by default.
Likewise, we compare our brains to that of animals, and assume we are immeasurably gifted somehow, using the very brain that would conceive such a metric in the first place.
Which is a bit like our ego and perception of personalities. All these abstracts are simply feedback echoing in our perceptual abilities, assuming as fact things must exist simply because we can perceive patterns, and then commit to reality the notion that everything, from ego to personality, either exists within a pattern or outside of it. The possibility that none of what we are "seeing" without vision may simply be neural artifacts even occurs to us. So we then further create more feedback to coin terms and concepts of things with no physical substance and compound the imaginary concept as real...
>>2113524
... ... Humans, then, by nature of this intelligence are forced to spend an enormous amount of metabolic exercises on nothing as little more than a side effect of the capacity to remember fire is hot and apples are tasty. By nature, we are forced to keep "seeing" things that aren't there and building mental universes to live in, from religion and culture to currency exchange rates and fealty to bad government. All emanate from premises in our head independent of their actual applied value to immediate survival.
And this we call our gift of intelligence. People marveling at microwave entrees and yet can't catch a fish to eat without consulting Amazon for the best fishing rod.
As an aside, I have a theory that kittens, like children, go through a period of biologically mandated schizophrenia. Children talk to imaginary friends to practice social responses, kittens chase imaginary mice, certain there is value in chasing something. Both produce reflexes useful to survival later amidst their venues of life.
We look at it as bizarre behavior, and yet a predictable effect of a growing mind within this intelligence and learned behavior.
So the many human premises and narratives about intelligence, who has it and what doesn't, is just a bit comical to me.
Sorry I've rambled into a book again.
:/
>>2112717
Shut up please.
The stuff he posts is actually an interesting read for us bug fans.
>>2113528
Thank you, I sure do like bugs. The simplicity of form and efficiency of function amazes me.
Earlier, as now, I was delighting in seeing Gregor race through his habitat maze, bounding and tumbling like an acrobat, straight up toothpicks and leaping from one platform to one below without missing a step. Not so long ago, he would timidly step and cautiously bumble from here to there.
The habitat seems to have had the intended effect of giving young Gregor a gymnasium. His reflexes have improved and his decisions come just a (subjective) whit faster than before.
Presently, he seems to have singled out all the straws as theme of interest, which is uncharacteristic; he usually just scales the outsides, but for some reason, has suddenly taken an interest in going through all of them.
My little boy is growing up and is becoming quite the athlete, despite the confines of his estate.
And after tumbling like a gymnast through his obstacle course, he is back to playing 'bunny' again
>proud
lel now he is fighting back a nap, the antennae slowly, slowly dip, down, down... then spring back up.... then down, down...
Eventually they will be flat and he'll fall right asleep for a bit. Its always cute to watch him nod off.
And there it is, antennae flat and body slumped. Roach is napping, as however roaches nap. He'll certainly rouse for dinner though. Even if he isn't hungry, (theres always leftovers with a roach), he will race to check the tray. As I said earlier, the novelty of new food, I suppose, is sort of like entertainment for him. He just looks "sniffs" and nibbles out of sheer curiosity, even if he doesn't commence to eating. He just likes knowing what it is.
And I always have something new, I figure anything new helps an animals spirits to mark time and experience. Which might explain why I linger in the deli after the grocery list is filled. God knows I'll take any escape from tedium I can get too.
So how apt a name, "Gregor" lel
g'nite /an/ and have a great week.
>>2112627
This. Your verbose writings are a boon in a wasteland of trolls, illiterates, and the chronically stupid. Carry on in good stead, roach anon.
>>2113552
You should consider keeping more species. It would probably inform your perception of bugs significantly. Jumping spiders are easy to find and offer much more than roaches in my experience.
But if you're set on roaches, they come in many forms. Shit, maybe you'd be a great caretaker for something like Macropanesthia rhinoceros and the $200 they cost could be worth it. Or keep a colony to get the full scope of their behaviors. Hissers show some level of parental care.
You might also be interested in creating ethograms to systematize your observations. Easiest way to keep track of the conditions in which a behavior was seen.
>>2112404
>we don't actually know what parts of the brain are responsible for consciousness
More like we don't actually know what consciousness is, just like we don't know what god is.
>>2115131
that's true too.
undoubtedly both are mental constructs. The question remains whether or not other animals share our delusions.
>>2112400
more like an ANTalogy ammiright?
>>2112596
fuck you roachguy stop posting deep shit that i cant comprehend
>>2115122
Thats a big roach
I keep hissers, reading roachguys post remind why i love mine. You should check them out if you see this. Cheap as shit and they create little hierachies especially if you have multiple males. Very fun to watch.
>Recent neuroimaging suggests insects are fully hardwired for both consciousness and egocentric behavior
this 'evidence' is just a rehash of The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness.
that they're technically capable of it doesn't mean they are.
you're technically capable of posting good threads, instead you post garbage.
>>2116010
>they have the necessary anatomy and are technically capable, but we can't assume they do just because
>Literally all the pieces are there but because they can't just tell us that they're conscious we have to assume they aren't
>>2116445
>Literally all the pieces are there
not everything with wings is able to fly.
>>2112755
Do you keep a blog or a collection of the bug posts you've made? I would like to read everything.
>>2116003
Yeah, you get a lot more interesting behaviors out of colonies.
There are also Cryptocercus wood roaches, which are really closely related to termites and have significant amounts of parental care. The nymphs even look like termites. Always wanted to try keeping those but rotting wood's always a bitch to find.
I'm getting Blaberus craniifer (Death's Head), Polyphaga saussurei (Giant Sand Roach) and Eurycotis lixa (big ass jet black Florida skunk roach) in soon. The Polyphaga should be interesting as fuck.
>>2112396
I did some pretty nasty things to insects assuming they have no subjectivity.
Well. Time to repent.
>>2116493
But most of the things fly. The rest flied in the past and their wings are a reminder of what they lost.
>>2116493
but everything with wings that can't fly had a flying ancestor.
are you implying insects use to be conscious but evolved out of it?
>>2116769
you wanna talk fallacies? airplanes are not animals, dipshit, false equivalence. They were physically built to fly, they didn't evolve to fly.
>>2116829
>airplanes are not animals, dipshit, false equivalence
it's not an equivalence, it's an analogy.
>>2116831
an analogy that's used in an argument but doesn't work because the two things aren't comparable is false equivalency.
you could use the same argument for creationism or some shit "wow, an airplane needed someone to build it to fly, so someone would have to build a bird, right???"
>>2116834
>an analogy that's used in an argument but doesn't work because the two things aren't comparable is false equivalency
ironically enough that's exactly what I said about OP's article.
you can't say ants have consciousness by analogy to a human brain unless the ant's brain is actually equal to that of a human.
but I suspect you're too stupid to see the humor in how you accept one false equivalence as analogy while rejecting another analogy as false equivalence.
>>2116836
But its not false equivalence?
It's simply stating the facts that they posses the necessary anatomy and probably use it. while you use shitty analogies to try and say "yeah, they have the anatomy, but they don't use it just because."
>>2116840
>they posses the necessary anatomy
no, they possess anatomy similar to what we guess is part of the necessary anatomy.
>you use shitty analogies to try and say "yeah, they have the anatomy, but they don't use it just because."
the airplane analogy very specifically implies they lack the necessary anatomy, just as an airplane lacking an engine is missing necessary parts.
I'm getting bored explaining things to your stupid ass. I suppose I'll quit unless you can come up with something even dumber to say.
>>2116840
>and probably use it.
your confirmation bias is showing.
there's no reason to assume they're conscious, they lack every single sign for it.
>>2118432
I'm not arguing either way. But I am curious: if a creature is not conscious, then what is the difference between said creature being asleep or awake?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but if I am to enter the conversation, I need to know how and calibrate to the frame of reference.
>>2118571
> then what is the difference between said creature being asleep or awake?
their metabolism slows down when they're inactive.
they don't sleep though, it's called torpor.
>>2116769
even if they had all of the parts, you can't lift an airplane with a 000,000,002HP engine.
>>2112623
>cockroach named Gregor
nice
>>2116843
I don't understand what's you problem with them having analog behaviour.
Insect colonies, develop technology, show signs of emotion, social structures and labor managment.
Just in a thermite mound, like pic related, there is an amount of developments that have to be the results of accumulated trial and error that had to be transmitted from thermite to thermite.
Instincts can only take you so far, to make this complicated structures and societies you need a minimal amount of self awareness.
>>2118709
>show signs of emotion
[citation needed]
>the results of accumulated trial and error that had to be transmitted from thermite to thermite.
over the course of millions and millions of years, zero individual thought went into it.
>>2118709
Just take a quick look at this guy research on termite mounds.
http://www.esf.edu/efb/turner/termitePages/termiteMain.html
>>2118712
They show signs of emotion like this>>2112731
I had a praying mantis and did the same thing, you can confirm this with every bug owner, or by observing a bug yourself.
Antennae position correlates with situational awareness.
Watch documentaries with colonies figthing other colonies or bigger bugs, not all the individuals react the same, some get scare, some fight, and some are heroes.
There's a documentary called bug wars when a bee jump at one of those japanese hornets, while a bunch of other scared bees watch.
>>2118720
>They show signs of emotion like this
but you didn't list any signs of emotion.
'body language' isn't emotional, it's instinctual.
it comes paired with emotion in humans because we experience those instincts consciously and subjectively.
>Antennae position correlates with situational awareness.
no it doesn't, even sun panels can do that and they aren't aware, they just follow programming.
>not all the individuals react the same
if all of them acted the same trial and error wouldn't be possible dimwit.
>>2118720
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6m40W1s0Wc#t=179.302147
Found the video.
That's some advanced behaviour.
>>2118727
it's some fancy biological programming.
but it has nothing to do with emotion.
>>2118725
Expend time with a bug, you'll notice that their response to you, changes over time, humans have a lot of complex behaviours and bugs should be aware of us all the time, but sometimes they don't, they just relax and don't care about you, that goes against their instincts. I'll dare to say that they just trust you, wich can be really dumb, but self aware nonetheless.
>>2118735
>Expend time with a bug
some biased anecdotal observations by a bunch of non-scientists aren't going to cause the breakthrough you're looking for I'm afraid.
>you'll notice that their response to you, changes over time
because there's more than one instinct involved.
>but sometimes they don't, they just relax and don't care about you
because sometimes you're a moving piece of cardboard or a weeping tree as far as their instincts are concerned.
they aren't fail-proof just like regular coding isn't.
>that goes against their instincts.
it doesn't.
it goes against what you assume are their instincts, but you've already demonstrated that you have no idea how instincts work or what emotion is, or what self-awareness is.
you're going to find more signs of self-awareness in a sun panel than a bug.
>>2118729
>fancy biological programming.
If is that, why does european bees don't do it?
They're very close relatives, and that's some Kobayashi Maru level of problem solving, the amount of complex circumstancial relations that happen in that behaviour goes beyond, "my instincts told me to do it".
Unless you consider that all behaviour can be stored in genes, but that's even more far fetched than individual cognition, because it will imply that our genes capacity to express under certain circumstances goes beyond anything observed so far, genes express themselves in an individual but once you hatched you are on your own, you can't have a gene expression for every situation, you have to make some choices on the go, speacially during new experiences, like living with a human.
I do concede that I'm not sure at what self aware truly is, been doing some research on AI and is still a very strange field, cause nobody sets a clear method to measure awareness, cause as you said behaviour can't be an indicator of sentience.
We usually define ourselves as sentience and extend that to other human beigns out of politeness, I guess.
Cause none of the current methods, like the Turing test, or the mirror test, are a certain proof of sentience.
But you could also say that self awareness is inherent for living beigns and as long as it alive can be sentient, same logics apply to our own sentience.
If you are sentience and a living beign...
You know the rest.
>>2118749
>why does european bees don't do it
because they have different programming.
sun panels and wind mills have different programming as well, but it's the same brand of technology.
>and that's some Kobayashi Maru level of problem solving
it's not all that strange in animals with short lifespans, ants adapt quickly too, so do fruit flies and fleas.
>but that's even more far fetched than individual cognition
it's less far-fetched.
>because it will imply that our genes capacity to express under certain circumstances goes beyond anything observed so far,
I have no idea what you're talking about and I don't think you do either.
>cause nobody sets a clear method to measure awareness
it's called the mirror test, the gold standard for self-awareness.
most animals you'd expect to pass it actually pass it, or atleast, most animals I expect to pass it do.
>But you could also say that self awareness is inherent for living beigns
most animals aren't self-aware and they're doing a whole lot better than we are.
self-awareness isn't a common trait because it's not a successfull one.
>If you are sentience and a living beign...
many organisms are technically capable of consciousness.
hardly any actually are.
just like all paper can technically be folded into a plane.
but hardly any of it actually is.
>>2118760
You don't actualy know wether any of the animals areconscious. Maybe the components of brain that generate consciousness and consciousness itself are not separatable. Maybe the consequence of having an eye and a brain processing the image also comes with wath we experience as "seeing" by the very nature of the organs and brain.
>>2118735
You type like stevie on top of way overestimating an insect's capacity for learning.
>>2118766
>You don't actualy know wether any of the animals areconscious.
if there's no evidence for it it's likely because it's not there.
the one thing all animals with demonstrated signs of consciousness have in common is that they're adaptive within a single lifespan rather than over many.
>>2118769
I think he's drunk, look at his grammatical errors.
lay off the booze roachguy.
>>2118766
The incredibly timy number of neurons in small invertebrates shows us that they couldn't ever have anything resembling a human thought. When a jumping spider sees another of its species and does a mating dance, it isnt thinking "hey look at that other spider like me, I should see if it wants to mate" because it doesn't have any concept for other spiders, mating, itself, or literally anything at all. You're just seeing a muscle programming routine being carried out that is activated by a certain pattern of light and color. There is no thought happening between an invertebrate's stimulus and its reaction to it.
>>2118760
An AI can pass the mirror test, is the AI sentient or the product of advanced programing?
You're reductionism is beyond belief.
A living beign behaviour can be erratic exceptional and many things more.
If you don't concede that things like antennae positioning are expressions of emotional behaviour how could a bug pass the mirror test?
Seriously bugs have different priorities they're not going to look at a mark on their bodies even if they know is their body in the mirror.
It's like those IQ test they make on african natives.
>>2118771
English is my third lenguague, Im posting in here only because of the respect I got for roachguy.
>>2118773
Actually given the fact that sentience remains in our brains until the last moments when our brains suffer from major trauma, and are dying, is safe to say that sentience is a very basic brain skill, you can-t make advanced math when you have brain damage but you can be aware.
And cephalopods have very basic brains with not that much neurons, and do a lot of complicated problem solving.
>>2118777
>is the AI sentient or the product of advanced programing
if something has to be trained to pass the mirror test it doesn't pass it, otherwise pigeons would've passed it.
>If you don't concede that things like antennae positioning are expressions of emotional behaviour how could a bug pass the mirror test?
I fail to understand what passing the mirror test has to do with emotional behaviour.
you don't need emotions to pass the mirror test.
>Seriously bugs have different priorities
as do mentally disabled people, mainly eating boogers and shitting their pants, hence why we don't consider them to be self-aware.
>Actually given the fact that sentience remains in our brains
that's questionable, we never actually interviewed someone that's dead.
>>2118785
Never listened to the last words of a person?
If you look yourself in the mirror you have to experience some kind of feeling that translates into emotional behaviour, otherwise you just stare at the mirror and that proves nothng.
How do you think the mirror test works?
>we don't consider them to be self-aware.
citation needed
And mentally disabled people arent plants, seriously have you ever spend any amount of time with them. and that-s a lot more than anecdotal evidence is basic human behaviour.
>>2118789
>Never listened to the last words of a person?
I fail to understand how it's relevant, you don't die the moment you stop breathing.
>If you look yourself in the mirror you have to experience some kind of feeling that translates into emotional behaviour
no you just have to recognize yourself.
there's no emotion involved in it.
>retards are self-aware
[citation needed]
>>2118793
When you aproach death all of your brain functions stop working your visual cortex stops shape recognition and many other things but awareness is one of the last things it stops.
If you recognize yourself and do nothing what heppens then?
Did you failed the test?
Why would retard not be self aware?, you are the one that said it, therefore the burden of proof is on you.
>Actually given the fact that sentience remains in our brains until the last moments when our brains suffer from major trauma, and are dying, is safe to say that sentience is a very basic brain skill, you can-t make advanced math when you have brain damage but you can be aware.
You realise that sentience isn't just an inherent property of all brains, but is brought about by a brain's actual structure right? A human brain has more neurons than most insects have cells in their entire bodies, it's dumb to assume that their 'brains', which things like flies and spiders don't have in any human sense, could be capable of any kind of real awareness.
>And cephalopods have very basic brains with not that much neurons, and do a lot of complicated problem solving.
Right, but they're also much larger than most other invertebrates and have much more complicated neurology. Also the intelligence of cephalopods is widely overstated. They're much more capable than most invertebrates though. Again you're comparing the abilities of entirely different neurology and assuming they have inherently common properties for no reason.
>>2118773
you don't need human like thought to have subjectivity, what is this anthropocentric bullshit
>>2118802
Right, but only in respect to organisms that are capable of having thoughts which ants, spiders, bivalves, worms, fleas, jellyfish, you name the invertebrate, do not. Some octopus and cuttlefish are literally the only contradiction, but mostly their 'advanced capacity for thought' is vastly overstated. People assume they're smart because they have a lot of neurons but mist of them are put to work controlling their very complicated sets of tentacles, not thinking. An octupus solve a jar puzzle because it is an octopus and can open jars, not because it is a genius.
>>2118800
Sentience could be an inherent property of any brain, we dont understand awareness yet.
Of course living organism have common properties, are you kidding me, all of our biology develpment is based on that, that-s how you can test things in mices and expect them to work on humans.
>>2118805
An octopus can open a jar because it understands what a jar is, and that it could be something inside.
Otherwise it would never use their cephalopod time in doing it.
>>2118799
>you are the one that said it, therefore the burden of proof is on you.
>what retards actually think
>>2118809
I could say the same to you, you are using the same argument in reverse, not coming up with an argument yourself.
>>2118808
>>2118808
Sentience could be an inherent property of any brain, we dont understand awareness yet.
Some people understand awareness much more than you appear to.
All organisms have things in common, your incredibly broad statement is correct, wowee. Intelligence or consciousness is not a thing all organisms with neurons have in common. You're going to find more in common between species as they are more closely related, which is why we can learn about how humans could react to drugs or shampoos, or how our neurochemisry works through rodent studies. You could study these things on any mammal. You couldn't find out anything valid about human brains through an octupus trial unless is was relevant to the very basic functions of it's nerves.
Again, an octupus being able to see something in a jar and fumble with it until is gets the cap off is more likely a side effect of an octupus's ability to manipulate the jar and not its ability to visualise what a jar is.
People thinking a fly can have thoughts or feelings is like me thinking I can replace my computer's processor with a light bulb attached to a battery.
>>2118810
>you are using the same argument in reverse, not coming up with an argument yourself.
I wasn't arguing with you, just laughing at you
I notice you said the burden of proof is on the person that says something but you didn't prove it.
idiots are often ironically funny to me.
thanks.
>>2118817
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQwJXvlTWDw
Look at that smart bastard reacting to everything in the experiment.
Been reading as much as I can about conciousness, and every researcher, either moves the goal post, or acknowledges that recent studies can only talk about our neurochemistry, wich is what the sentience and the brain are, unless you believe in somethinmg else.
>>2118819
Toughts and feelings are nothing extraordinary, they-re just biological responses, as long as you have the correct chemistry you can have them.
>>2118821
I-m glad you get your kicks from something, cause you clearly dont get them from having intelligent discussions.
>>2118828
>using animal planet science as evidence
Toughts and feelings are nothing extraordinary, they-re just biological responses, as long as you have the correct chemistry you can have them.
Wrongo.
You don't have a solid enough background to even have this conversation.
>>2118831
Go read a book, this one is good.
https://www.amazon.es/Consciousness-Explained-Daniel-C-Dennett/dp/0316180661
Do you even have a counter argument or you just like ad hominems?
How is it wrong, would be interesting.
>>2112400
>>2112404
If some species of ants aren't at least somewhat conscious then how do they farm fungi, like leaf cutter ants, and other species farm aphids?
They even go so far as to deliberately select the pregnant female aphids and move them under the shelter of leaves when it rains, so they have a continual source of food.
Not even crows and chimpanzees/gorillas are that smart.
>>2118828
>you clearly dont get them from having intelligent discussions.
I don't expect intelligent discussion from anyone that says the person saying something needs to prove it and then doesn't bother to prove it.
sorry.
you're stupid.
laughably stupid.
>>2118862
I dont feel the need to prove it given the obvious causality involved in the proof.
All that I need to do, is go to a mentaly challended person and ask, are you there?
As long as he answers, I have proof of his self awareness.
>>2118853
The same with the ants example I have the ant and the ant is making all this intelligent choices and actions.
You and I can see the ant actually making it, can you explain to me what outside force is making that choice for her?
If you cant provide valid proof, for your bold statement that the ant is not doing what we are watching her doing, even if you dont admit it, I am forced to accept the fact that you dont know what you are talking about.
>>2116569
Im excited for you anon, those look like some fun roaches.
>>2118888
>dont feel the need to prove it given the obvious causality involved in the proof.
I didn't ask for proof of self-awareness.
I asked for proof that the person making a statement must prove it.
this is simple stuff anon, simple pleasures.
>the person making a claim must prove it.
>oh yeah? prove it.
Hello friends, its 'roach guy'. I am very sorry I haven't been able to join in discussion since >>2113552 but I have been very busy and distracted, and expect to be for probably at least a week yet.
I am also sorry the thread seems to have gotten a bit hostile.
But I have read all the replies and am thankful for all the kind words. I hope to be able to get time to respond to some of you nice people and join back in soon, at least in a week
So I am posting this pic to keep the thread alive.
Little Gregor is doing fine, but his habitat needs changed. It will be the last one before he is released around Memorial day when the weather commits to being warm.
Today he was especially spunky after a rather languid week, presumably as a reaction to today's lunch which was novel to him: cheesesteak, cheese, lettuce, tomato and mushroom.
The new variety had him quite active and in a very exploratory mood. As expected, he gave himself a long bath after, and took a nap. I also saw him using some paperboard to scratch his wings on, which was cute.
He is presently doing the 'bunny' thing again, and in a deep sleep.
Again, I did read all the nice replies (and scanned the more detailed posts when I could) and hope to respond someday soon. And I thank you again for the kind words and suggestions. There's been interesting discussion, and informative too. I hope I can participate and learn again soon.
Have a great week, and be blessed, all.
g2g, G'nite
<3
>>2115109
Thank you, that's very kind. I do appreciate it.
:)
>>2115122
Actually, I just happened to find Gregor by chance. He is perfect company, since I don't really have time for a more demanding pet. I do admire all the other roaches people have posted, and didn't know there were so many kinds. Some are even quite colorful, I've learned.
Little Gregor is just a common German Roach, but he has become quite special to me. I do like some spiders, especially jumpers, because they seem to have so much personality. Thank you for the suggestion; perhaps a time will come when I can consider such options.
>>2115880
lel sorry. I didn't mean to be abstruse. It's just insomnia I guess.
>>2118690
Thanks, he's pretty special.
>>2118777
Thats kind of you to say, thank you.
__________
I'd like to get into the discussion, but I guess I am very late. I've been very busy lately, but theres a lot of interesting views and informative discussion here. I enjoyed reading it.
I am posting tonight because I got fed up with my work and decided to make time to make Gregor's new habitat, since it was almost a week overdue, and showing it. It's very similar to the last design, but has a few more levels, this time with wee ramps added, and another straw tunnel, and some lesser improvements.
He is always very excited when I change habitats, which is good to see. I love watching him merrily explore. It seems his nature to roam and explore, and it always saddens me that in captivity, after about a week and a half of his habitat, he will start getting really lethargic, for there is nothing new to explore.
Then how he springs to life when he gets a new habitat. If body language is any indication of mood, its the most upbeat I have seen him since lunch yesterday, when he got some novel vittles.
I wanted to take a picture of his new habitat, but there is no getting translucent plastic to show the inside well...
>>2120464
... It's good to see him so active. In two weeks, it will be warm enough to release him without fear of cold, and there is already a little green on the trees. Its odd, knowing I will miss the cheerful spunky antics of a little roach. I wish I could keep him, but even little wild bugs need to be free. I hope he stays safe as long as he can, and finds his little roach friends.
He has grown quite nicely, I dare even say handsome, and I like to think the jungle gyms I put in his habitat have kept him sharp and strong as he ambles, climbs and learns new surfaces, angles and balances.
Presently, he has stopped scampering about to enjoy a bit of cheese-steak.
Have a good night/day /an/.
>>2116520
Sorry I missed this post earlier. I read it but missed it when I was trying to catch up.
I don't have any collections, but I'm glad you found any of it interesting. Thank you for kind regards.
Have a good weekend /an/.
Escape!
Gregor gave me a heart attack yesterday, and got feisty when I served him his roast beef dinner/ But I did catch him again, and he is safe and sound (if a bit restless)
In other news, by the windowsill I found a sickly yellow jacket. This seems to happen every year as the females come out of hibernation. It seemed to rejuvenate some from the orange-juice mixed in water, but from past experience, I am not optimistic, the poor things.
Hopefully the sun will be out soon so I can get some open blossoms for it to collect protein from pollen. Unfortunately, this usually doesn't turn out well. All I can do is make the poor little girl comfortable. I guess there is hope, but it is slight.
As for Mr. Escapey-pants, here he is this morning doing his dog-house thing, the little stinker.
>>2120464
I had a hummingbird moth in my garden awhile ago. I was even able to get super close to him and take a few pictures of him(pic related)
60mm lenses are boss.
>>2122465
another.
>>2122691
I thought he was at first. I was like "oh hey a hummingbird I should go get my camera" Got closer to him and realized what he was. They are really beautiful.
I run into all kinds of crazy moths for some reason. There was one I saw in indiana at night that was absolutely massive. He landed on the deck when I was taking out the trash and scared the shit out of me. It was almost the size of a Robin.
In florida [pic related] landed on my door. The good ol black witch moth. I got a couple pics of him.
>>2122702
and the other pic of him
>>2122702
>>2122703
Neat. Very beautiful.
This isn't a pic I took, but a while back I saw this very sort of moth for the first time. It too is huge, and quite beautiful.
>>2113474
You spelt 'There was a mutation and the protein created caused an ant colony to farm aphids. The non-farming ants could not compete with the aphid farming ants during times of famine and war' wrong
I've seen some pretty smart bugs.
>>2122464
not trying to bum you out but at this point i don't know if you should bother letting him go he's gotta be nearing the end of his lifespan might as well make him a house roach.
also the yellow jacket was a young queen who just got outta torpor and its a sluggish experience...not that i would know firsthand or anything. Just warming up should have fixed her problem assuming she was fit enough to survive hibernation. I've seen a few die but its because they were either unfit or woke up too early.
>>2124567
Well, I figure he should feel freedom before its over, even it means nothing to a Roach. His last molt was February, so I figure he has till summers end at least.
It stays so darn cold here. We nearly had a frost two days ago. I intend to let him go in the last days of May, but if this cold keeps up, I may push it to early June.
As for the poor yellow jacket, I have been through this before and it never ends well. I find them this time of year looking like hell, out of torpor as you say. The other day it looked as dead as a door nail because it had fallen into a little pool of diluted juice. It was utterly non responsive.
I was about to declare it dead, but ran some warm water over it with the thought that maybe congealed sugars had occluded its spiracles, and laid her out to dry.
So it was very joyful when I saw she had revived and managed to scale a mirror.
She is back in habitat. She has the strength to climb but never attempts to fly. She has some reflexes and can right her self if she falls over. But she still is very lethargic and does not care to move.
I will try new foods, but I am not hopeful.
As for the daffy little Roach, he is fine, and still being a silly roach acting roachy.
Many thanks for your input, I do appreciate anything that could help her.
Have a good day, all.
>>2120464
>german roach
>gregor
nice touch
Well, the little yellow jacket seems to be ok, just very, very lethargic.
She is enjoying some beef, though it is only roast beef. I assume she would prefer uncooked, but I don't have any.
I am still not optimistic. I like to think she will snap out of it, that perhaps she is just 'over-sleeping' from some disrupted hibernation.
Still, she is eating and, if barely, alert. She still has reflexes, and can climb and orient herself.
It's just that when I find yellow jackets in this shape this time of year, it doesn't end well. Maybe this time could be different.
Roach is still just being roachy as we wait for the warm weather to finally set in for release. I think by next weekend we should, hopefully, finally be out of this cold wave.
I will try to give the yellow jacket more food variety. I will need to learn more. I am trying to pay more attention to her cycles; her condition requires more attention than little Gregor. I have to be more mindful of day-night light cycles, for example.
