Hey /an/. got a question for ya.
If it benefits local ecosystems or your animals are under threat, would you be willing to personally kill a living thing?
As much as I like cats, I have shot ferals and feel justified and even good about doing so due to the threat they pose to native birds and small mammals.
I have also shot foxes to protect livestock.
>>2051720
I feel pretty torn on the issue, but if I saw an animal that was suffering pretty badly, I would probably try to catch it and take it to the vets to have it put down.
As for local wildlife...as much as I know its technically wrong, I really don't care what cats do because it doesn't come down to what the cat is doing. It comes down to what the people in that community want, and if they want the environment protected, then they will eventually get their shit together and fund some kind of spaying and neutering program, or a mass catch and kill. It doesn't matter if just one person is going around killing cats, it won't change a thing until you get other people (that can do something about the problem) on board.
>>2051749
How do you feel about poison baiting?
>>2051761
Well, often, cats and dogs may stop by other people's gardens and have a bite of whatever is laying around. I wouldn't feel good about killing someone's pet. But ferals are unnatural and should be put down.
>>2051761
I just personally don't like making things suffer more than needs to be done, which is why I probably wouldn't kill something unless it was a specific circumstance. Like if something was dieing and obviously wouldn't make it to the vets in time; something was attacking me or my property; etc.
To protect my own animals, I would kill. That includes a neighbor's pet if it's loose and an active threat to my animals.
>>2051761
Poison baits are used very often in Western Australia due to the poison used naturally occurs in several species of an endemic FABACEAE genus called Gastrolobium. Pretty much all the native fauna in the south west has developed a immunity to the poison so we drop billions of baits via air since we don't have to worry as much about off target damage.
While the occasional poisoning of a domestic animal with no resistance does happen, these baits are used quite a distance from populated areas so it's not very common.
>>2051720
I'd like to try other messures first, like neutering most of the population. But there are some places where cats do big damage and that first way may take to much time. As long as the body of the animal still is usefull in some way it wouldn't be that bad.
We have to work on the source of the problem, too. Outdoor cats in urban areas do no damage because they get nearly only unendangered synantrophic species to hunt. But near special conservation areas and especially in places where no cat like predator is naturally occurring there should be an indoors-only law.
Also all cats should have to be neutered and I would also agree to a general tax on outdoor cats if it's used directly for the protection of small mammals and birds by creating with secure breeding areas for them and their food sources.
>>2051781
>there's an ongoing petition to stop shooting them
Well, If they would raise enough money for catching, neutering and shipping them off to somewhere where they don't interfere that'd be nice.
Well I do believe in trying to protect our native animals and plants, even if it means the action of culling. It can only be done in the most humane possible in my mind if this was to happen though
>>2051766
they are not unnatural.
They have been around since 8000 b.c. and there have always been lots of birds (not talking about islands)
only the stupid birds get eaten by cats
and only some cats are able to catch many birds
in case of europe a bigger problem for bird populations are people in southern europe and northern africa who catch millions of migrant birds every year to fry them
I'm in a huge spit right now with a 'friend' of mine about this. I've already gave most of the details in the chicken thread.
Basically what it comes down to is that there was a cat that killed one of my chickens, and seriously mauled another. I caught said cat (huge feral tom), filled a barrel with water, and drowned it off as quickly as possible. I understand that it wasn't the absolute quickest death, but I don't own/know how to work a gun (I don't hunt) and I wasn't going to poison it. I also wasn't going to waste my own and a bunch of other people's time by taking it to a shelter and just having them kill it.
I think that as far as killing it is concerned, pretty much everybody with logical thinking abilities would agree with me. But not this chick
She's basically saying that, after four years of being pretty good friends, we can no longer be friends because I killed some pest. She refuses to believe that anybody should ever kill a cat because she has a ton of diseased strays that she feeds around her house. She thinks that cats are somehow different from a pesky raccoon or a rat. At least those two are native species, feral/stray/outside cats have caused numerous extinctions all around the world. Like she seriously acts like I killed a small child or something. Blamed it on me for "not building a higher fence". Like nigga I'm not going to blockade of two acres of property just because you don't want a diseased invasive species to get killed for fucking with my livestock.
Like how can people be so ignorant? I love cats, I think they're funny and cute. Once I get my own place, I'd love to have a cat. You know, an indoor cat, where it belongs.
I was just doing myself, my chickens, and the environment a good deed by culling a nasty feral tom.
There's my rant.
>>2051906
Don't feel bad, just do what's right.
>>2051906
Why did you tell her in the first place?
Killing it was necessary, but still nothing to brag about.
The only thing you could justifiy killing with these arguments is human beings. If you are killing animals "cause it's the right thing" you are fucking retarded and have no idea what's going on on earth right now.
>>2051879
They are not natural. When humans brought over cats to certain areas the fauna could not adapt quick enough. New Zealand for example has a big population of flightless birds that were hunted to extinction or near. Other areas like not islands have had predators that could kill cats wiped out for humans to settle so the whole thing is off balance.
Regardless of areas like that since you excluded islands you have natural wildlife suffering at human interaction while having cats being fed by humans, bred, and released it's not natural at all. Not all birds are adapted to deal with cats and even the ones that are good at it won't adapt to it quick enough to not have a huge affect on the ecosystem.
Personally I hate any cat that goes outside and I wish I could just shoot it or take it in to get put down but I can't do that to an animal because it's a humans fault and I would lose all credibility in my field of work because of bleeding heart retards.
>>2051906
That sucks there were a lot better ways to do it but I can't blame you at all. She's just some person that thinks shes an animal lover but can't see past her own limited views of what's ethical. If it does pan out well just make sure never to tell people about these kind of things.
>>2051906
It was simply blood vengeance. You had to honestly.
That cat would kept coming back and killing.
what are your thoughts on a tax for people that keep cats since each cat kills about 40 birds and 200 other animals annually? (have this existing for dogs in my country(not because they kill stuff))
with that money cats could be spayed/neutered and birds could be helped with some bird measures.
Everybody would be happier: people, cats and birds.
Yes, If feral cats that were introduced by people start destroying the ecosystem then they need to be culled. Yeah it's shitty that you have to kill but that's the price to pay to bring back balance.
Gotta do what you gotta do.
>>2051950
Spaying and neutering does not fix anything, the only way to get rid of feral cat populations for good is extermination.
>>2051906
You are justified. That tom would probably have gone around popping out more feral babies and making the problem worse. In my opinion Racoons, Possums and Rats are better for the environment than nasty ferals. Your friend feeding the ferals is only making the problem much worse.
>>2051975
i'd prefer a not or slowly decreasing neutered population to an exploding population of unneutered cats that has to be culled every few years.
it would only work in an developed country in which cats have to be neutered.
Austria does this by law for cats that leave the house.
don't know if it's successful.
>>2051909
I mean I kinda felt bad about having to kill any animal, but I guess it's how it goes. Animals kill other animals that are a threat to their group all the time.
>>2051939
Yeah I guess I won't mention it anymore
>>2051943
It's true, but in her eyes, everything was my fault and I'm the monster. Lol
>>2051950
People should learn to be responsible and keep their cats indoors. All memes aside, cats are inside animals, I'll say that til the day I die. The only time a cat should be allowed outside is if it's in a secured location, or if it is under strict supervision. For the cat's sake and for the environment
Also those spay/neuter programs are BS. The only solution to the feral cat menace is extermination
>>2051984
Exactly. And the funny thing is, after my chicken was mauled by a raccoon last spring, I went on a killing spree with raccoons. Again, I honestly like raccoons as an animal. They're smart and crafty. But again, it was a pest situation, and I did what I needed to. Set a box trap in the barn and ended up killing like 5-6 raccoons, until they stopped coming. Everybody knew this, including the chick that's mad about dead kitty, and she never had a problem with it. Only when a feral cat died did it become an issue. Fucking hypocrite.
>>2052004
>Fucking hypocrite
couldn't agree with you more mate
>>2051998
The point is neutering does not stop the population increasing, nobody has managed to catch enough feral cats to make it work.
>feral cats
Holy shit, no. You're doing the right thing by putting these bastards to rest. Shoot them, drown them, idgaf. They're the worst.
>>2051927
>let nature run its course
>humans aren't nature
Okay, bud.
>>2051781
>I wouldn't go out of my way to kill animals
You lying piece of shit, you deliberately plant extremely toxic flowers in your garden, knowing full well it will attract all of your neighbor's pet cats like catnip, then jerk yourself off to the fact that when they go home they die horribly slow agonizing deaths in the most inhumane way imaginable.
I have no problem with humanely euthanizing stray animals, such as feral cats and dogs, IF it is done quick and painlessly. But you, bugguy, are nothing but a fucking sadist. And don't even try to pretend it's because you care about your precious snowflake garden or the local ecosystem.
You poison cats to death just because you enjoy seeing them suffer.
>>2052086
unless you insist on using nature in a retarded redundant way, nature/natural = outside of human influence
>>2051975
>100% guarantee that a colony will never reproduce ever again via spaying and neutering.
>feral cats barely live beyond five or six years due to injuries from infighting, injuries from larger predators, getting run over, starvation, freezing in winter, etc. etc. etc.
>entire cat colony dies off within a single decade due to no new offspring.
How the fuck is that NOT an extermination, you ignorant uneducated asshat? Just because you don't get to feel like a big man by not watching their brains splatter all over the ground from your big macho bullet doesn't mean it isn't an effective method for dealing with the problem.
>>2052135
So you pretend trap neuter return works then think you can call me uneducated? And then act all self righteous by pretending I get off on killing animals to make you feel like you are morally superior?
Stop being pathetic.
>>2052161
Trap vasectomize return works better.
>>2052276
The return part is the whole problem
>>2052283
I'm not so sure.
If a vasectomized tomcat is returned to a colony it's not implausible that he could potentially prevent that colony from growing better than if he weren't returned.
If he's returned, he might fight off competitors and keep mating with the females while they're in heat.
If he's not returned, the females will breed with intact males.
>>2051761
As someone who has been severely poisoned before, I personally despise the idea of poisoning things, it's such a fucking horrific way to go out.
I know it's effective, but poisoning is an awful experience.
>>2051778
They are trying to bring in new baits that are a bit more humane than 1080. The capsule the bait is stored in would mean that only cats would swallow it and native mammals would reject it.
its as if half of /an/ cant be contained in these threads and has to spill out onto the Catalog just to get their edge on
while I am convinced 95% of the posters in these containment threads are Strayans there are still some who actually believe this shit.
shooting stray animals to microwaving baby animals to doxing some camwhore, its all the same shit with you fucks
>>2051761
Fuck that. If you're going to kill something go fucking do it.
Poison is such a shitty way to die.
>>2052538
How is our country supposed to kill ~20 million feral cats?
Shit dude.
I can shoot a critter, but drowning/suffocating something? Thats rough.
Guess I'm more of a pussy than I thought. Just thinking of it makes me feel rotten.
>>2052543
Ah shit you guys don't have access to guns eh?
Well I don't know what the answer is and I'm very happy I don't live there because having lost a pet to poisoning before its absolutely the worst.
>>2052547
Feral cats are a massive problem in rural areas where heaps of farmers have access to guns anyways. They mainly use them on foxes in order to protect livestock instead. Cats will get shot given the chance.
TNR/Shooting only work with small contained populations wit no immigration in.
The new poison bait to be trialed is called curiosity and has been okay-ed by our RSPCA.
>>2052316
How was that fun experience?
>>2052004
maybe you could have transformed your angry killing energy into building better protection for your chicken
>>2052297
But that individual animal still does damage during it's remaining lifespan, not only through predation but through spread of disease like toxoplasmosis.
Not to mention that to actually lower the number of feral cats this would have to capture millions and they are extremely difficult to trap, bait and shoot. It's why they've gotten to the numbers they are at.
Plus that TNR is pretty much illegal in Australia.
>>2052556
I read some testing data for the curiosity baits, doesn't seem to have very high success in its current state. There is some talk of developing a disease that targets cats but I think this may be a long way off.
>>2052316
I know it's off topic of the thread but you can't just say you've been poisoned and not elaborate. Did someone else poison you? Did you fuck up and ingest it by accident? Failed suicide attempt? "Hey what's the worst that could happen?"
>>2052604
Virus would be ideal but it would never happen, unless it was something that only made them sterile.
Releasing the calicivirus or myxomatosis is controversial in some communities these days already. The calicivirus breaking containment was such a missed opportunity.
>>2051720
Where I previously lived, someone dropped a paralyzed dog off in my neighbors driveway.
They were in Florida and I was watching the place. Someone decided to dump the dog there because long driveway and away from road.
The poor dog was in serious pain, closest vet is an hour away, I doubted the dog had another 30 minutes when I found him.
Even though the animal was in such bad shape he was still a sweetheart. I'm a hard ass construction worker who has also worked on farms and hunted my whole life. Not going to lie, putting that dog down was hard, and made me tear up. Some fucking people man.
>>2052620
Isn't the Virus rather...bad?
As in, it has the opportunity to mutate, right? Wouldn't that just cause more problems down the line? I know Australia needs to deal with the Feral kitty problem, but wouldn't a virus like this that gets out of hand be just as bad?
>>2051906
You treat cats as cats. You know when to care for them and know when a feral cat is destructive. Your friend is an idiot who thinks she can save everything with a cuddle.
>>2051975
Think about how many cats are born every year and survive about a year until they can make more kittens. Think about how many cats you would have to kill to just keep the population stable.
If cats would be sterilised, marked and released, they might still follow their hormones and mate, but it won't result in kittens anymore. The more cats are sterilised, the lower the chance two whole cats meet and get offspring. They would work like a buffer.
Catch, mark and sterilise as much as possible, tell people to just shoot the unmarked.
After seeing numerous cat colonies in and around urban/rural areas, i'll throw in my 2 cents and say that flat-out killing the cats (whether it be pathological/poisoning/shooting) is far more beneficial to local ecosystems. Sterilizing and releasing a cat might be more humane on the cat, but that doesn't mean the cat stops targeting endemic species for food.
>>2051975
>tfw
>>2051720
I like cats, but they are highly invasive due to human irresponsibility and as a result, it's also our role to keep their population in check.
Though I wouldnt bluntly shoot a cat, I wont condemn others for choosing to do so.
As for natural predators, I believe we need to assess human/wildlife conflict as they keep things in balance. ie, wolves: if there's a wolf directly posing a threat, you may be in the right to end its existence, but that wouldnt justify killing all wolves in a 50 mi radius.
>>2051720
I think it's justified.
If you have a cat, keep it indoors. Simple enough.
