Mental Illnesses
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You are currently reading a thread in /adv/ - Advice
You are currently reading a thread in /adv/ - Advice
For all you depressed, social anxious and panic attacked fucktards out there:
These "illnesses" are 100% curable but not by the bullshit methods most of the scientists believe in.
Ask me any question, I know the truth behind all that stuff.
That Trump is pretty random, yes.
How do I stop letting anxiety affect my trust in my girlfriend?
>>17150584
while i agree, the people in these positions very rarely want to hear the truth, which is often 'get over it' with some basic tips on how to live their life. they want a magic button that makes it go away (or worse, feign wanting said magic button because they dont want to let go of this 'disability' that they use to define and excuse their lives)
>>17150623
What behaviour of your gf are you afraid of?
>>17150638
I'm afraid of her cheating on me, or grinding on other guys at clubs, even though she has been nothing but honest. Sometimes she says things that would suggest otherwise, but it is just bait. She just told me that if I can't trust her then we can't be together!
>>17150584
>Legitimate brain disorders that cause mental illness cam be fixed by a guy on the Internet and not scientists/doctors
K
>>17150635
Basic tips please. I'm tired of relying on fags that have kept me in the same shitty place for years. I want the truth
>>17150648
I cannot heal anybody but maybe I can wake up some people.
I will begin with you:
These symptoms like depression, panic-attacks etc. are not "disorders". They are reactions of a healthy brain to certain circumstances.
>>17150644
I will write some basic methods later, you may profit from them.
>>17150644
she's cheating on ya bro
leave her and feel powerful
>>17150665
Thank you OP, I will be monitering this thread.
>>17150584
Im depressed, how can i cure that?
>>17150584
I'm 21, have a great 6 figure job despite having to degree and work only 40 hours a week. I've been doing well at my job having received a bonus and raise under 9 months at this job. I spend my nights doing college work, playing musical instruments and occasionally playing video games or watching Netflix.
Why do I feel so stagnant in life? I'm afraid that I will not advance in my career. I feel like getting a college degree won't actually benefit me. 40 hours a week feels like 20 hours too long because for the most part I just firefight problems.
>>17150658
Ok the truth is:
Depression, Panic-Attacks, Social Anxiety are 100% healthy reactions of body/brain/soul.
There is no damaged transmitter system (Serotonin) or any other malfunction.
The truth is, that Depression (including the other symptoms) is caused by suppressed sadness, anger, disgust or other "bad" feelings throughout ones life.
As a man, we are told that men don't cry so we dont cry when our aunt or best friend dies.
As a man we are told that it is not manly to feel fear so we supress it when we go to the army for example.
There are many situations in western society when we naturally feel X but are made to feel Y.
Our organism can handle these demands for quite a long time. But the supressed feelings are not gone, they are "stuck in the system".
So everytime you supress your sadness or anger for example, these emotions get stuck in your nervous system and make you nervous. You get more nervous amongst people because all these feeling we supress have a social component and those other people trigger these old and supressed emotions.
For example a panic attack can be like this:
You lost your pet when you were 5, but you had to act happy. You lost your grandfather when you were 12 but you had to act happy. (and so on) Then you are amongst other people and your limbic system (the system in your brain that is responsible for emotions) really wants to show all your pain and sadness, it wants you to cry and shed your tears so the others can see how fucked up you are and help you. But you learned that this is not good for you, so you supress this natural reaction. This causes the nervousness, the urge to drink alcohol, the panic attacks, whatever.
The solution is to release all your sadness, step by step. You can do meditation, close your eyes and let the old memories come and dont run away from them but stay there and allow all feelings.
Look up "Samarpan" on YouTube, it can be a good start.
I reached the posting limit now
>>17150661
Can't all of those be symptoms of brain trauma or defects in the brain and not necessarily just an attitude issue?
>>17150661
>wake up some people.
huehuehue
> They are reactions of a healthy brain to certain circumstances.
huehuehue
Someone that hasn't even looked over wikipedia of the subject is going to "wake" people up.
Literally kill yourself. The world would be so much better without you faggots.
>>17150683
Yeah, naw.
I get it, you're one of those people who thinks they know shit because they ignored all evidence to the contrary and managed to find a couple of small things that agreed with their viewpoint.
What you've said may be true of some people but it's a fact that a lot of mental illnesses have biological roots that are not curable with exposure or therapy.
As for your assertion "there is no damaged transmitter system" that again is true for some and not for others. It's flat out idiocy to ignore medical evidence to the contrary.
If ridding anxiety/depression/panic attacks was as easy as you suggest, then nobody would have these issues. And there are a lot of people that simply are weak minded and don't want to face reality.
Think before you post.
>>17150688
Feel the rage inside you.
>>17150716
I never said it is "easy" to heal it.
>>17150725
no you flat out said that medical research that has been repeated again and again is incorrect because you saw a guy on youtube.
you're a fool.
>>17150683
>There is no damaged transmitter system (Serotonin) or any other malfunction
>caused by suppressed "bad" feelings throughout ones life.
Anon you realize those "feelings" are induced by chemicals right? You wouldn't have sadness, anger, disgust, happiness, without you brain being able to release different chemicals. Even when you sleep it's because of chemicals produced.
When you're "feeling (receiving the proper chemical" the wrong emotion than you should given any given scenario that means something is clearly wrong with your brains ability to either process or create these "feelings(chemicals).
MRI scans of depressed people clearly show a different brain structure than non-depressed people, especially within the hippocampus,(not a university in which hippos attend) the parts of the brain that deal a lot with memory and mood.
I know science and facts are hard things for you to understand but you really should take a cursory look on the subject of depression.
>>17150737
I know it is hard to understand for you.
>>17150747
Apparently scientific facts are hard to understand for you.
>>17150745
As you really like science you should know the difference between a correlation and a cause-effect-relation.
So are you a $cientologist or a Christian "scientist"?
>>17150758
I work for a Professor at my university that has published in SCIENCE, sorry.
>>17150779
Healing depression does not have anything to do with intellect. A child can do it.
>>17150683
>mediate and think about the past
My past has honestly been fine. There's nothing there to go after. I feel like shit and want to kill myself sometimes and it has been like that since I was 12. I seems like I was put on earth to commit suicide.
>>17150766
>ignores everything else
>doesn't research further
Oh anon, why are you so fucking retarded.
Do you really think there isn't more evidence along with the MRI scans? Surely you know correlation is proven through deduction of other associations and connecting research. All of which apply to the study of the depression and physical brain differences of non-depressed individuals.
Sadly, researching is too much to ask for a man of your.... intelligence? Is that really a word that applies to you?
>>17150788
I will now mark you down as a $cientologist.
Please leave.
>>17150584
You would make for a great politician, just like your man there.
Strong opinions, massive ego, tells others they know how to fix everything without having the basic knowledge on the topics they are so confident in. You could be a senator, easily.
If we define scientists as "people who follow reasoning skills and evidence" then what makes you think that you have a better answer than them? Do you have better reasoning skills? Do you have better evidence? If yes then why aren't you sharing those reasoning skills and evidence with the scientific community? Why aren't you already famous? Is the reason because your approach isn't scientific in the first place and therefore has no reasoning skill or evidence? It's the only possible explanation but that would mean we should automatically ignore your thread. Well, which is it OP?
Suprisingly, with all the shitposts ITT, no one mentions
>CBT
>Exercise
>Eating healthy
I get that therapists are outdated and psychfags are in kahootz with big pharma, yet most of this thread seems to be 'mental illness isn't real'. That doesn't matter. What matters is how you handle your symptoms
>>17150584
Shit, I though OP would be reasonable.
Chemistry, neurotransmitters etc are crucial to mental diseases, it is a fucking fact. And severe form of autism, some other diseases where large chunks of neural systems are fucked, can't be just gotten over.
Though I believe that you can alter or mild the anomalities of your metabolism with the power of your will in many situations. It's also scientifically proven that our memories and thoughts can alter our brain, no /x/ involved.
Idk, there is like a ton of stories in the past and present, how motivated people with anxieties and other serious issues fought with themselves and won. And they are not all made up.
Maybe cognitive-behavioural therapy has something to do with it.
I wouldn't recommend anyone to fuck around with antidepressants, though my views on metabolism are pretty basic. That system is so fucking complicated, I doubt that doctors can trace every single consequence of using them.
Can autism be cured?
>>17150918
>exercise totally cure you
>meditate totally cure you
>eat healthy/organic totally cure you
Every time anyone brings up depression, self proclaimed experts say that shit. Like it's that easy & they are the authority on the matter of depression. They are able to know everything about everyone & their lives.
I have had treatment resistant chronic depression my entire life. Since I was a child I had depression with symptoms like lack of motivation, boredom, & melancholy. I got by all of my schooling with teachers saying "He just isn't challenged enough" when I never did any of the work. I am fairly intelligent and easily aced all of the tests but if I had to write a paper or do any homework I just did not give a fuck about any of it. My parents enrolled me in boyscouts, & pretty much all of the sports, so I have been physically active my entire life. I spent the spring playing baseball, summers physically training for football which I played in the autumn and winter. In boyscouts I took part in all the outdoor activities, hiking, camping, and competitions. Even took part in the "extreme scouting" of rock climbing, backpacking an 100 mile trail through SD, & white-water rafting back. Didn't give a fuck for any of it. Exercise clearly had no impact on my depression.
As for "eating healthy" to do all of those things I had to eat healthy.That's a nonissue. Freshman year of college I switched to vegetarian to see if that would have an effect on my mood & after 3 years it didn't do shit. There are absolutely no activities that make me happy or I find enjoyable. None of the sports, none of the outdoor activities, no video games, movies, books, or films. My hobby is painting & I only do it to pass the time.
It wasn't until I tried to kill myself my senior year in college that I was diagnosed with chronic depression. All that time just doing things I couldn't care less about. For years after I have tried over a dozen medications, therapy, & more. None of it works.
>>17150994
All I said was that no one mentioned those so far, senpai. I know the same ideas don't work for everyone. People usually resort to psychfags after a someone mentions they are depressed.
>>17150661 >>17150683
>They are reactions of a healthy brain to certain circumstances.
The whole point of calling it a "disorder" is because there's something seriously abnormal going on: eg in GAD, the brain constantly thinks it's in an extremely stressful environment despite having no external stressors: it's not acting normally, something in the big machine is broken and keeps pushing the big PANIC button over and over again no matter what situation the person is in.
Same with depression: normal episodes of depression (eg after spouse or sibling dies) shouldn't be treated by psychiatrists, they're not medical problems (unfortunately, nowadays they often are).
The disorder comes in when there's no apparent reason for the depression and it persists despite normal changes in life: listen to some of the anons with actual depressive disorders around here. They often start at young ages (eg 10) and persist despite the best efforts of friends, family, and psychiatrists, because there's actually something wrong with the brain that abnormally lowers mood.
It's like bipolar except with 1 pole. You wouldn't say bipolar is normal, would you?
It goes on like this. Normal reactions are normal, but the entire point of proper psychiatry is to treat abnormal cases.
Your self-help stuff will work for normal anxiety, normal depression, etc, but don't discourage people with genuine disorders to go see their doctor and get them fixed.
>>17150781
>>17150781
getting a professor coffe and copying papers doesn't make you qualified for anything m8
>>17150584
If panic attacks aren't real, then why do i get them when i smoke weed? If its just bullshit and in my head, howcome theres a physical response to me smoking(hyper alert, feels like im about to have a heart attack, shooting pains, faster heartrate).
Scientific facts are cool and all but what if i don't trust this fucking "health"industry and their commercial interests.
The solution to sickness is to take a pill for the rest of my life?
Thats not a solution, thats a problem.
>>17150661
He is kinda right.
Its not an sign of health to be adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
I've got SAD. Its not some kind of mystical sickness its quite simple a lack of Vitamin D or sunlight.
Its perfectly normal for a human body to react like this to such an environment.
Now tell me, am i sick, or just living to far up north?
I am also hypersensitive and react very emotional to all the pain and injustice in my environment.
Its now my fault that this society is fucked up, superficial and greedy or am i just reacting negatively to this shitfest?
>>17150677
That's simple bro. Save up money and invest. Make money work for you. And you'll end up having money to work with. Money you can afford to throw away
>>17151108
>The solution to sickness is to take a pill for the rest of my life?
Often, yes. Like many other diseases. Eg some people have to take certain hormones, immunosuppressants, etc for their whole lives since the disease is incurable.
For example, i have narcolepsy and will have to take pills for the foreseeable future (until someone figures out what causes the type 2 variants and how to fix them permanently).
Some mental disorders are the same, eg schizophrenia or bipolar. They're usually for life, and if you want to be sane you have to take the pills.
>>17151071
and saying those things almost always said as absolutes. Often times followed by "medication are evil".
wow thanks OP, I guess the violent hallucinations and paranoid delusions I get when I'm off my meds that cause me to have mild episodes of psychosis and try to cut my skin off is just in my head, so I all I gotta do is hope real hard and blow smoke up my ass and it will all be okay!
nah. fuck you.
>>17151108
>The solution to sickness is to take a pill for the rest of my life?
>Thats not a solution, thats a problem.
You're an uneducated idiot.
Many people have incurable illnesses that require medication to improve their quality of life. Saying pills are "bad" is quite honestly one of the most retarded things anyone has ever said in the history of mankind. "This is bullshit, you're telling me everyone has to have this polio vaccine? fuck you, you're just trying to make a profit"."Cystic Fibrosis, pfft, made up. Don't need your medical treatments" " Alzheimer? I don't need your medicine. Alzheimer? I don't need your medicine" "Parkinson? fuuuckkkkkkuck yyyyouuuuu iiiiimmmmmm fiiinnnnneneeee."
The only difference between some of those and something like chronic depression, ADD, Bipolar, depersonalization disorder and others is they affect the the functions of the brain in a way that don't manifest physical disabilities. They are very very real however. Like a software bug caused by hardware failing. Like when a connector on an NES game fails to transfer data properly and the game starts to glitch out.
In past times these people were outcasts. In even recent times, people that suffer from mental illness were lobotomized. Medication not only improves millions of people's lives but saves them from fucking idiots like you.
>>17150584
In 100 years modern psychiatry and psychological care will be looked back upon as being just as savage and ignorant as electroconvulsive therapy and lobotomies.
>>17151320
are you saying you volunteer to take my meds so I have an episode of psychosis and try to cut your ears off? because hey, that's FAR LESS savage than taking medication prescribed by a doc, right?
>>17151320
>man is suicidal
>doc gives him anti depressant
>a couple months later he feels less depressed
>doesn't kill himself
So barbaric.
>tfw can't enjoy 4chan anymore
what do I do guys
>>17151330
Yeah sure, why not? I mean it's not like we should try to identify the root cause of the psychosis, what triggers it, how to avoid it, and actually work toward a way to fix it. Better to load you up with pills and pretend it's fixed.
>>17151337
>So barbaric.
What's barbaric is the fact that dipshits like you completely ignore the documented evidence that anti-depressants can, and do, increase the risk of suicidal ideation and behavior. But keep pretending like loading people up with drugs is fixing the problem.
>>17151337
>may worsen the suicidal thoughts
It's a real side efffect. Surprised you people get so jumpy over meds
>>17151356
>>17151358
>suicidal ideation and behavi
Yeah it's almost as if they warn you about that every chance they get.
And it's almost as if you can stop taking them if that happens.
fucking idiot.s
>>17151395
>here take these pills that might make you want to kill yourself
>oh they make you want to kill yourself? try these other ones that might make you want to kill yourself
Thanks for proving my point. It's no different than repeated electroconvulsive therapy except it's done with chemicals instead of electricity. You might as well be beating the patient with a cudgel hoping it'll fix whatever's wrong with them without killing them first.
>>17151356
yeah, cause it's not like that's been tried before you massive cunt
fucking morons like you are why some of my friends were convinced to go off their meds despite trying all of that already, and they either killed themselves or ended up much much worse off for it
fuck you you piece of massive shit, I hope you fucking die. don't act like you know what's best for people like us while you're sitting on the outside looking in and can just say if we have enough rainbows and sunshine and talking about our feelings that it'll be fine. no, fuck you. get your head out of your ass
please kill yourself, maybe if more people like you did a few of my friends would still be alive
I'm so socially messed up but can you blame me with how so many times I get knocked down by others? Or too often I try to talk about something but people don't give a shit and I really got not much else to talk about because I'm fucking boring?
>>17151422
>some people have side effects from medication, therefore all medication is bad
Great soccer mom logic you got goin on there. Afraid of vaccines too?
>>17150635
There is no way to simply "just get over it" this tough love bullshit isn't real it's a lot harder than that.
>>17151422
>It's no different than repeated electroconvulsive therapy except it's done with chemicals instead of electricity
Source, please. Something actually published in a respectable academic journal and peer-reviewed.
>>17151356
>Yeah sure, why not? I mean it's not like we should try to identify the root cause of the psychosis, what triggers it, how to avoid it, and actually work toward a way to fix it. Better to load you up with pills and pretend it's fixed.
In the most common cases, psychosis is due to defects in the brain or neurochemical dysfunction (ie due to drugs).
For example, stimulants (eg amphetamine) reliably induce psychosis in manics and schizophrenics, who are susceptible to it.
To put it bluntly, these people have broken brains. We can't fix them directly yet, so we give them antipsychotics (the opposite of stimulants) in the meantime as a crude fix.
There's literally no thinking involved in many mechanisms of mental illness: they can even be induced in mice and rats by editing their genes or feeding them drugs and watching what happens (that's how new drugs are tested before knowing whether they're safe in humans).
The pills are the best we have right now. Therapy, exercise, meditation, etc just helps you cope with the symptoms: medication reduces the symptoms.
A cure will be better, but treatment will have to do for now.
>>17151422
First of all, ECT actually works. Go ask flyceratops (the tripfag who's getting a course of it right now).
>It's no different than repeated electroconvulsive therapy except it's done with chemicals instead of electricity.
Funnily enough that used to be a thing. The drugs used had too many side effects so they stopped doing it and went to electricity only.
>>17151444
>>17151458
>>17151465
ITT Luddites who are convinced that contemporary medicine is somehow special and will never be improved upon in any way. I bet you ignorant fucks would have defended trepanation if you were alive in the 14th century.
>>17150584
You're a gay faggot
>>17151488
>convinced that contemporary medicine is somehow special and will never be improved upon in any way
literally no one said that
what's been said is that it's the best option we have right now for people who don't respond to therapy or the other feel good "u just have to meditate sweetie :)" shit
or are people like me who have debilitating symptoms THAT ARE THE RESULT OF A PHYSICAL ABNORMALITY IN MY BRAIN supposed to not get help for them because you're too uncomfortable with the idea that some people actually do need medication to have a decent QoL
Yeah, maybe they're horrible for people like you who don't need it, but people like me do. fuck off, you can have all the shitty ignorant opinions you want on this because you can just click out of the browser and it's over for you. it's my life and the lives of a lot of other people
>>17151482
So what exactly is your problem with my statement that the current methods of psychological treatment will be looked back upon in 100 years as barbaric and ignorant? Are you arguing for the sake of having an argument at this point or have you just lost track of the conversation?
>>17151529
Maybe you should learn how to fucking read.
Here's the post that you dipshits started crying and soiling your panties over: >>17151320
>>17151533
>So what exactly is your problem with my statement that the current methods of psychological treatment will be looked back upon in 100 years as barbaric and ignorant
my problem is that you're using that statement to shit on people who NEED that treatment and acting like they'll be fine if you just hope real hard and talk about their feefees
not all mental disorders can be treated by therapy, don't pretendd theyre all the same
>>17151544
>my problem is that you're using that statement to shit on people who NEED that treatment
No, I'm using it as a statement to shit on the people who are "treating" the people who are in need of help. They're no better than witch doctors handing out voodoo powder. Worse, even, since they're also jerking themselves off about their own sense of superiority while getting kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies who know full well that their psychiatric medications kill people.
>>17150683
>science is bad, mkay
>shows up with throwaway self-help psychoanalysis/esoterics
Dear lord, just no.
The things you mentioned are disorders, as opposed to illnesses. This distinction is very important to clinical psychologists and psychiatrists. By not understanding the difference, you've pretty much flung yourself out of the discussion from the get go. Not to mention that you literally tried to claim that the state of your serotonin receptors has nothing to do with your emotional state. This is like saying lifting weights has nothing to do with muscles.
And I'm getting really tired of fools like you not actually picking up a book, other than con-man Freud and "Beginners Mind" and then running around, telling the world how they've suddenly figured out all mental disorders and "muh pharma conspiracy!".
Now I'll give you faggots that this seems to be especially the case in the USA. I'm guessing that is because you have a lot of shit doctors or at least a shit health care system and book stores with more self-help books than classical literature.
But this has to stop. In the times of fucking Google, ignorance is a choice.
There is literally no minute where there is not a thread on this board where there isn't some dude with some serious issues, who doesn't get help simply because he is utterly ignorant of what the fuck psychotherapy and psychiatric medication mean.
It's as if you faggots literally believe psychotherapy is Freudian psychoanalysis and psychiatry is equivalent to movie-asylums in the 30s. Lobotomies, electroshocks and drooler-sedatives and all.
Just stop. This faggotry is hurting people.
>>17151540
yes, anon being an ass about people needing help for disorders that can't always be treated in ways that they find "nice" and disregarding how the treatments we have now are a lot better than what we had previously and do address a lot of the root issues, the fact that the brain chemistry isn't right
You know I went through hell of getting off one medication and figured I would try not having any meds for my anxiety and guess what? Shit got worse and at times affected my sleep. Now on a different drug and things have improved but not totally cured of course. Anxiety attacks are not something that just triggers from emotional shit nothing could be really bothering you and you go to sleep like normal and the shit can wake you the fuck up in the middle of the night making you not able to fall back asleep.
>>17151554
[Citation Needed]
>>17151533
I'm arguing for the sake of procrastination, i have things to do that i'm avoiding.
and no, they won't all be looked at as barbaric like lobotomies and such: just as the best we had at the time. ADHD, however, is more like lobotomies: instead of helping people feel and function better, the aim of the "treatment' is more about making the patient more "convenient" for their caretakers.
Dosing kindergartners with hardcore stimulants because they can't sit still for 8 hours straight will probably be looked down upon in the future.
>>17151544
kek, he wasn't even replying to you
>>17151554
so you think disorders that are the result of abnormalities in the brain and fucked up brain chemistry can be treated with what? rainbows and sunshine?
>>17151529
>meditation is the only alternative mentioned in this thread
No. Please calm down.
>>17151554
I envy people like you who will never actually experience being so mentally fucked that you need medication just to function and can have the blissful ignorance of thinking that all medication is evil and that everyone's problems can be solved with kisses and rainbows and sunshine
>>17151554
That's idiotic. Those drugs are why you can go on /x/ and find all kinds of people exploring all those abandoned asylums.
If the drugs hadn't been invented, we would have needed MORE asylums.
>>17151581
I also said therapy, learn to read
>>17151554
can you actually source that more people die as a result of the medications than untreated mental disorders, or are you just talking through your ass again.
>>17151566
>and disregarding how the treatments we have now are a lot better than what we had previously
Whereas you're disregarding the assertion that we'll have things much better than we have now.
>>17151574
>muh brain chemistry
You dipshits keep invoking this word as if electroshock therapy doesn't change brain chemistry too. You seem to have this retarded conceptual understanding of brain chemistry as being something that only pills can change. Here's a tip: Everything you think, everything you do, and everything you feel is a product of brain chemistry. Stop pretending like it's some ethereal closed system only influenced via magic drugs.
>>17151589
Yeah I'm sure you envy the imaginary person you're arguing against made out of presumptions and pretentious conceptualizations. I could tell you that I had clinical depression for over a decade and that the pills only made it worse. I could tell you of all the months and years I spent in therapy that did nothing other than siphon money from my wallet and presume to know what's best for me. But none of that matters because ignorant assholes like you seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you just can't possibly know what it's like to be in your position.
>>17151594
Eating healthy, exercising and most importantly CBT have also been mentioned
>telling me to learn to read
Yikes
>>17151488
And yet you still never actually provided a source, for any of your points actually
Arguing is hard when people actually ask for information to support what you say, huh?
Is CBT something that I would have to see/pay a therapist for or can it be done with online videos or something?
>ITT: Everything which does not conform with my personal experiences must be a scam.
>This ESPECIALLY includes the psyche of other people.
It's like trying to argue with a flat-earther.
>>17151612
>And yet you still never actually provided a source, for any of your points actually
So what you're telling me is that I need a source for:
>Electroshock therapy is a barbaric form of "treatment" that does more harm than good.
>Pills that change your brain chemistry can increase your susceptibility to suicidal ideation.
>And that the field of psychiatric medicine will change and improve over time.
Maybe you could try using google since those are all empirical facts with mountains of documented evidence? Oh no wait, I guess you can keep demanding easily available evidence because you think it's somehow a valid argument. You might as well be screaming "SHOW ME EVIDENCE THAT THE EARTH IS A SPHERE"
>>17151614
Actualy psychfag here.
It obviously would be best to see a professional for.
But online options have shown good results for stuff like mild depression.
I think the four biggest ones with confirmed effect are "Deprexis", "Wellbeing", "PLUS" and "This Way Up".
The latter had the strongest effect, but costs money.
Don't be scared of just meeting with professionals, bro. Everybody looks for excuses in the beginning. Usually the first meeting if free and only to clear things up.
Knowing to look for CBT puts you ahead of most, in my professional opinion, desu.
>>17151631
Well I mean I've seen people before for my anxiety that really isn't the thing I just kinda don't wanna have to pay so much when last time especially the person never even tried to do this sort of thing so in a way felt like wasted money. What do you think of things like ASMR videos? I hear about these kind of in a joking sense but I do wonder if some of them might actually help.
>>17151606
>You seem to have this retarded conceptual understanding of brain chemistry as being something that only pills can change.
and you seem to have some retarded notion that those "other things" will always work for everyone
>I could tell you that I had clinical depression for over a decade
try having severe paranoid delusions and hallucinations resulting in being locked up in a hospital numerous times and ugly scars covering my body from me trying to cut myself open with a knife because I was convinced that someone from the government had implanted listening devices in my skin and I needed to go to the ER. I could tell you the stories of numerous other people with other severe disorders too who I met while in treatment who would be dead by now without medication, and some who are because they didn't have it. your experience is nothing even remotely like mine.
>and that the pills only made it worse
they didn't work for you, and you find something that did. okay? I never said that pills are the best treatment for everyone, numerous times I've said that other methods don't work for everyone, I've only said that some people need them to function. If you can't differentiate between "some" and "all", I really can't help you.
Like I said, I envy you for not needing medication to function. you found a way without them. I've tried, and ended up in the hospital with stitches all over my arms and legs for it. I can't even order a pizza without them, I can't talk with people or go to work. don't act like your experience with depression dictates how I should be treated for my issues, or people like me.
>ignorant assholes like you seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you just can't possibly know what it's like to be in your position
you mean, exactly what you're doing? at least I'm acknowledging that different people/disorders respond better to different treatments. you seem to think that because meds didn't work for you that everyone is the same
>>17151663
Meanwhile you're on a massive segue from the original point with no return to the topic in sight. What does any of this have to do with whether there are better possible methods for addressing the problem you have that can/will be discovered within the next century? Nothing, it has nothing to do with that. You got butthurt because I said pills aren't fixing your problem. They're a patch fix. Nothing else.
>>17151627
more like
>that the side effects of the medication is worse than the symptoms it treats
>that a high number of people have suicidal ideation as a side effect when prescribed the recommended medication for their disorder
>the likelihood of someone dying either directly or indirectly from the medication is higher than the likelihood of them killing themselves as a result of an untreated mental disorder
>that psychiatric medications are more dangerous than other medications
You know only just recently I've been feeling extremely down.
I have a fairly decent job working outdoors as a gardener for a public park. I have a nice home and live pretty comfortably.
I was married a few years back and it went to shit so I basically moved far away and rebuilt my life. Since then I had been pretty upbeat with everything. That all changed last week. All my drive and desire have pretty much gone. I was sat in the woods at work today just thinking to myself what it could be and I have no idea... Everything seems grey and uninteresting to me now and the only viable conclusion I can think of is something to do with my failed marriage. But surely that shouldn't be an issue now after so many years.
I don't know it's just hit me like a sack of bricks recently.
>>17151672
>>that the side effects of the medication is worse than the symptoms it treats
Well what would you consider worse: Depression or Death by Suicide? Hmm...being really sad or being really dead. Hard choice there.
>>that a high number of people have suicidal ideation as a side effect when prescribed the recommended medication for their disorder
So how do you measure with any kind of scientific accuracy which patients get the suicidal ideation from the pills, from the depression, or the combination of the two?
>>the likelihood of someone dying either directly or indirectly from the medication is higher than the likelihood of them killing themselves as a result of an untreated mental disorder
Again, see the last point. There's too many variables that destroy any chance at scientific results. That's especially in light of shit like this:
http://www.psychiatrist.com/jcp/article/Pages/2015/v76n01/v76n0106.aspx
>>that psychiatric medications are more dangerous than other medications
Too vague of a question in the first place. What makes a medication dangerous? You can overdose and die on OTC medication like Imodium and Aspirin. Neither of those are going to make you blow your brains out or slit your wrists open.
>>17151668
nice backpedal
and you didn't just say we'll make progress. you're saying that modern methods are just as bad as shit like lobotomies when it's pretty obvious how they're pretty fucking different
and I didn't know the discussions in threads wasn't allowed to change or take a different direction, send me the internet rulebook when you're done if you don't mind
>They're a patch fix. Nothing else
that's what I'm talking about, your shitty elitist attitude towards people who DON'T HAVE an option for a different fix, shows how small your scope of this issue is.
>>17151686
If all you're going to do is misrepresent my arguments and project your own insecurities on to me then it's clear that you're not going to listen anyway. It seems evident to me that you're thoroughly convinced that you can't live without the drugs and even if I thought you should stop taking them you would just make retarded accusations about my intentions anyway.
>>17151683
you are good at avoiding responsibility for your claims, I'll give you that
>Well what would you consider worse: Depression or Death by Suicide?
for this question to even be relevant you need to establish that the suicide ideation is a frequent side effect to begin with
and not to mention that you're assuming that it's a potential side effect for every medication out there to treat mental disorders. you're also assuming it's a common side effect when prescribed correctly, AND you're assuming that it's the only thing that could have a medication considered as dangerous. all medications have potential side effects, even if they're extremely extremely uncommon, the manufacturer is required to tell you. doesn't mean that you will or even have a decent likelihood of getting even a handful of the side effects listed
>>17151734
>strawmen and semantic disputes, the post
>>17151701
>misrepresent my arguments
exactly how am I doing that. I'm saying not everyone can be effectively helped with alternative means and for SOME PEOPLE medication is best. and you're claiming that nah everyone can, despite their circumstance and their disorder and what they have previously tried
>you would just make retarded accusations about my intentions anyway
it's a bit easier to say when you aren't the one dealing with the aftermath of it
>>17151743
>exactly how am I doing that.
Just in the last post:
>you're saying that modern methods are just as bad as shit like lobotomies
>your shitty elitist attitude towards people who DON'T HAVE an option for a different fix
These are both misrepresentations of my argument and they form the basis of your argument. You are creating imaginary shit to argue against. That is the very definition of misrepresentation.
>>17151742
>pointing out the assumptions you're making and conclusions you're jumping to
>"S-STRAWMAN!!"
I think we're done here
>>17151750
>I think we're done here
We were done the minute you starting arguing against the imaginary people in your head instead of the points I made.
>>17151749
>These are both misrepresentations of my argument
Then sum up your argument if it's so "misrepresented"
>>17151757
>instead of the points I made
you didn't have any basis for the points you made to begin with and came up with excuses instead
>>17151759
>Then sum up your argument
I'm glad you asked: >>17151320
This sums up my argument because this is my argument. Congratulations this discussion has officially come full circle.
>>17151763
>make up imaginary arguments that have no basis and assign them to your opponent
>start screeching about how those imaginary arguments have no basis
Classic.
Wow. I've never seen so much "Moving the goal posts when you're wrong" than ITT. You guys are getting BTFO by the violent schitzo. This is sad.
>>17151777
you do know just because the other points you've made in the thread aren't in the original post doesn't mean they aren't part of your argument, right?
>>make up imaginary arguments that have no basis and assign them to your opponent
I wasn't even the one who tried bringing up the suicide ideation potential side effect to say "hurr meds r bad" in the first place
>>17151796
>"hurr meds r bad"
Boy, for some reason I didn't think your misrepresentations could get any more pathetic than they already were. To my surprise you have broken out the le-epik-mentally-retarded-impersonation-meme tactic.
Keep something in mind about this "suicidal ideation": it's often due to increased mental activity level and emotional reactivity. Both GOOD THINGS: they indicate that the medication is fixing problems in the brain, lethargy/bradykinesia/etc and blunted affect.
Making the patient less of a walking dead man, less of a zombie.
Read pic related. We currently don't have many effective ways to fix the negative symptoms of classic schizophrenia.
When we do, you bet your ass they will MASSIVELY increase suicidal ideation.
Imagine if you suddenly woke up in that guys's body, living that guy's life.
If you suddenly remembered, all at once, how you stopped loving your wife, how you tried to strangle her and she took your 2 kids and left in the middle of the night.
How you lost your memory and then lost your sanity. Didn't go to your mother's funeral.
How your kids are 17 and 20: they grew up without you.
Wouldn't you think about killing yourself too?
I'm living a less severe version right now. Recently got on a medication regimen that fixed some of the negative symptoms. I was almost like pic related. An amazing girl tried to befriend me, I could barely speak. Couldn't return her questions. God, she asked so many, now I remember them all. What hobbies I had, what kind of music i liked, etc. Couldn't even ask her "what about you?".
And the loneliness that comes rushing in. Not remembering what "friendship" is like.
It doesn't bother you when you're a numb zombie. But it does when the meds kick in! All of it does.
Like a soldier who wakes up to see that they had to amputate his leg.
The first thing you think about is blowing your brains out.
But that's a good thing. It means you can feel again.
It's just that the first thing you feel is pain and loss.
This isn't every case, of course. Any drug that affects the brain has the potential to fuck up the brain in all kinds of ways.
Just remember that "suicidal ideation" isn't always what you might think at first glance.
>>17151422
>here, take these pills that cure most people of depression
>There's an extremely rare and highly unlikely chance it might make it worse
>if that happens, simply stop taking the medication and contact your doctor immediately
You cannot seriously be this retarded. Comparing rare side effects of ADs to electro therapy and lobotomy has got to be the dumbest fucking shit imaginable. Anti depressants work 2/3rds of the time, as in completely cure.
Increase in suicidal thoughts is reported to be only an extremely small fraction of those prescribed the medications. As in, only 2%. When first being described Anti-Depressants, the doctor should closely monitor the patient. If thoughts of suicide occur, stop taking the medicine. How fucking hard is that for you to understand? It works for a great number of people and has an extremely rare chance of having that side effect. And again, even if you do have that side effect all you have to do is stop taking the fucking medicine you fucking retard.
>>17151356
>anti-depressants can, and do
>and do
You're literally saying AD cause increase thoughts of suicide every time? Really?
You faggots know almost every medication has side effects right? Common ones like antibiotics, that have saved billions of lives, can cause side effects as severe as a seizure. Anti-viral medications used to treat herpes or chicken pox can cause seizures and even kidney issues that lead to death. All of these are highly unlikely and can be easily prevented by contacting a doctor as soon as the side effects appear.
Unless you think antibiotics are barbaric as well.
Fucking moron. Don't breed.
>>17151488
>contemporary medicine is somehow special and will never be improved upon in any way.
what in the fuck are you even talking about here.
This medication will be improved on in the future but they are not "barbaric" or even close to the same shit like a lobotomy. If a pill doesn't work you can stop taking it with no long term side effects at all. Also, saying medications are the "problem" and those that take them for life shouldn't is just flat out wrong and ignorant. No, it's stupid. You're stupid
>>17151554
>They're no better than witch doctors handing out voodoo powder
.....
>know full well that their psychiatric medications kill people.
Rare side effect that's avoidable easily. It helps the grand majority of people that take them. You're an idiot.
Almost everything has a small chance to kill you.
>>17151568
Was it a benzo?
Benzos are rough, One of the hardest drugs to come off from. Worse than opiates.
>>17152035
No I was taking effexor. It was a side effect hell for a time but then I was clean of it but started having issues like I was saying.
>>17151573
>"treatment' is more about making the patient more "convenient" for their caretakers.
That's not what..
>"Dosing kindergartners with hardcore stimulants because they can't sit still for 8 hours straight will probably be looked down upon in the future."
You have absolutely no idea what ADHD is or how it's treated do you? Just another dumb faggot that's spouting bullshit they heard on youtube without ever doing any sort of research themselves.
Nor have you ever actually met a person with ADHD. You're just an ignorant moron all the way around aren't you.
>>17151606
>disregarding the assertion t
lobotomy =/= pills.
Pills that you can stop taking if any(extremely unlikely)bad side effects appear.
>everything you feel is a product of brain chemistry
It's almost as if drugs can help put those chemicals in balance if they are needed. As if, they are one tool of many, that if used with those others tool results in a complete treatment!
> Stop pretending like it's some ethereal closed system only influenced via magic drugs.
What are you talking about. You're the dipshit claiming pills are "completely unneeded" for every person on earth since, I guess to you, every person is exactly the same. Saying "medication works for many, is not saying "medication is the only thing that works".
You're an idiot that cannot see from any other perspective but your own. That's literally the largest sign of someone of low intelligence.
>imaginary person you're arguing against made out of presumptions and pretentious conceptualizations
I assure everyone reading this thread, you are not imaginary. You are a real life presumptuous and pretentious retard.
>these treaments didn't work for me
>THEY CAN'T WORK FOR ANYONE NYA
I'll repeat, you're an idiot that cannot see from any other perspective but your own. That's literally the largest sign of someone of low intelligence.
>>17152041
I take effexor currently and It does nothing for me. It was the last AD I wanted to try. I have literally tried over a dozen different ADs now of all kinds.SSRI, SNRI, TCA, MAO, ect. Even st john's wart and other herbal remedies haven't done anything. I have ran out of my effexor once for a week and it was fucking terrible. The withdrawals on that shit is very real and I take a low dose (75mg a day) The doc wanted to try and increase it but I refused. I don't want to deal with anything worse than that.
While taking the effexor I did a test group study of opiates(suboxone, methadone) to treat depression and it fucking worked amazingly well. But with the current political climate there is no way the FDA is going to approve opiates for people with chronic treatment resistant depression. My brain since I was a child produces absolutely no "happy" chemicals. I am at a high risk for suicide and a hundred other types of bullshit. If I wanted I could be approved for disability it's that bad.(not going to. Would just make me feel worse about myself)
I have completely given up on anything to help with my depression. Medications, exercise, meditation, therapy, proper diet, shock treatment,... no effects. It's not my family or current environment. I had a good childhood all things considered. Grew up on a farm with family, parents are together, love and support me. have a well paying job and respect of hundreds of thousands of people. Everyday I receive fan mail of people saying the look up to me. I should be the happiest person alive but I have no desire to live. I have no emotions other than apathy or melancholy and guilt. I hate myself, assume everyone hates me, and get no enjoyment from life. Given my life status, I feel incredibly guilt feeling this way. I feel like a massive piece of shit that would be better of dead than having to live another minute of meaningless life.
>>17152043
I have a diagnosis of ADHD myself.
I'm not saying that abuse is always or mostly the case, was just playing quick and dirty devil's advocate with that anon.
ADHD treatment in dependents (the majority) creates a situation that may raise ethical problems because of a sort of moral hazard: the patients aren't the ones making the treatment decisions, the parents/guardians are. They very often make those decisions based not on the kid's opinion of how much the drug improves their symptoms, but on their evaluation of their functioning.
And that "functioning" is heavily focused on things like compliance, obedience, execution of orders, task completion, noise level, reduction of restlessness, ease of interaction and correction etc. Same with using teacher evaluations.
In the end, it risks medicating the kid to the parents' and teachers' tastes instead of the optimal functioning from the kid's point of view.
Basically, if that anon wants to meme and shit on psychiatrists for doing lobotomy-like things on a large scale, they should go for ADHD, not depression.
>>17152086
>Pills that you can stop taking if any(extremely unlikely)bad side effects appear.
This is why i always hated the idea of antipsychotic depot injections: if the patient develops NMS or some shit, you're left trying to counter it with dopaminergics since you can't discontinue the drug.
Same with all depots, 2bh (saw a case on /adv/ of a woman who had severe side effects from depo-provera).
>>17152153
Unfortunately opiates are considered only a temporary solution because of tolerance buildup (same thing with stimulants).
Have you been on the second-lines like trazodone, quetiapine, bupropion, etc yet?
Tried the california rocket fuel mixture? (venlaxafine/mirtazapine)? What about vortioxetine (trintellix)?
Might want to try tianeptine too, it's legal to buy from overseas pharmacies (unscheduled) and reportedly works quite well.
>>17152206
>a temporary solution because of tolerance buildup
This is not always the case. Generally, tolerance buildup comes from abuse If you take medications or drugs as directed you will be fine. Problem here being opiates are extremely easy to abuse and require a lot of self control. And when you're depressed, that's something hard to do. I do not have an addictive personality. I have taken drugs considered "extremely" addicting in the past and was able to easily take only the prescribed amount and quit them. Benzos, norco(back injury), and adderall. I took them for a few months at a time and was fine.
>Have you been on the second-lines like trazodone, quetiapine, bupropion
I have taken a couple MAO. Did nothing for me.
>ried the california rocket fuel mixture? (venlaxafine/mirtazapine)? What about vortioxetine (trintellix)?
Just the effexor out of those so nah.
>tianeptine
I have and have also used another TCA as well. I have seriously tried almost all of them and I'm really inclined to try anymore. I would take them for about 6-8 months or however long the doctor wanted to try and absolutely none of them have done a damn thing. I'm talking about NOTHING. No side effects, no mood changes, no motivational changes, no sex drive changes. The only effect I have had is from zoloft. It gave me really bad indigestion for some reason.
Oh, the other effect has been from effexor. Withdrawals.
>>17152206
I wanted to add, all ADs are considered a "temporary solution".
I'm not holding my breath to get any opiates. I understand the risks, the stigma, and the addiction problems. Although medications like methadone and suboxone are supposed to hinder the :euphoric" response and but still have a mood lifting effect. If they come out with an opiate designed for depression I will definitely try them again.
Treatment resistment chronic depression is not exactly common.I will be taking at least one thing for my entire life. However short or long it will be. Each day the struggle is real. When I wake up I don't know if it will finally be the day I say fuck it and hang myself. I have the rope under my bed. I have the noose already tied. No matter how hard I try I think about doing it more than once every hour and I have done so for the last 10 years. After I survived the first attempt it was because someone found me before any real damage could be done because she left her books in the bedroom.
I should already be dead. I don't regret trying to kill myself. I regret getting caught.
>>17152257
The tolerance builds up anyway to the mood-boosting effects, same way tolerance develops to benzos' sedation before the anxiolytic effects. Same with stimulants (which i'm taking right now). They make very good antidepressants in the short term but very shitty ones long-term.
>I have and have also used another TCA as well.
It's not another TCA, it's based off the TCA skeleton but does completely different shit in the body (eg there are antipsychotics and DNRIs, NRIs, etc based on that skeleton too). Tianeptine's interesting since it's been reevaluated recently as part of new antidepressant research: the people who developed it accidentally made a very advanced drug. It doesn't appear to do anything directly to serotonin or dopamine at all (like the new generation, it seems to work primarily on glutamate receptors instead).
Can use it as a bit of a demo while we wait for the new glutamatergics to get out of the pipeline (eg esketamine, rapastinel, NRX-1074, AV-101).
I'm in the same situation if you haven't guessed. Don't know why or how i'm still going. Guess i'm just too stubborn to give up. Gonna try meds until the end of time if i have to.
We gotta try not to kill ourselves until better treatments come into play. The new gen ADs are testing far more effective than anything in current use, so we have that to look forward to at least.
And research compounds (eg NSI-189) if you're the adventurous type.
>>17152153
Well atm I take Celexa instead and hasn't been too bad .
>>17151657
With anxiety there is a lot you can do, depending in the severity.
ASMR doesn't really do shit. At least not in a clinically significant way.
First of all you should learn some techniques to get you through an episode. Progressive muscle relaxation works well and is used for shit like acute shock.
Apart from that, rumination should be an issue for you. MBCT/MBSR both work very well for that. Probably all mindfulness meditations. Recently wrote a review paper on it. It isn't the magical cure-all pop-science magazines or self-help books like to make it out to be. But it's effective. And has also been shown to be effective in a self-taught setting. At least in one study I know of.
Either buy a book for no-BS meditation or look around if there is a zendo around your place. They usually let people in for free. Learn all you can get from it and leave. (Unless it's some weird esoteric cult. Then bounce.)
But again: Nothing really replaces therapy. All of those things are usually supplementation or post-therapeutic measures.
Before taking any medication for anxiety you should try these two things:
1. Get a good one-a-day multivitamin and take 2-3 a day. You're not supposed to do this but if you feel your anxiety disappear it means you suffer from malabsorption. This means you are shitting out nutrients and your brain and endocrine glands are suffering from deficiency.
2. Switch to an anti-inflammation diet and take a low dose of advil or aspirin. This has been recently discovered to help reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression and although not proven completely yet, it's worth trying for a month or so.
I went through so many medications and supplements trying to stop my awful anxiety. Doubling up on vitamins I noticed a complete vanishing of anxiety so I went to the doctor and was diagnosed with hashimotos and impaired absorption of magnesium.
>>17154128
Or, you know.... You could just let your doc do some blood work beforehand, as you should be doing anyhow before making a definitive diagnosis.
Stuff like malnutrition or Hashimoto.
>>17154136
I had a blood test two years ago to see if there was a deficiency and it came up negative. I went to the doctor two weeks ago and told him about the vitamins, he did another blood test and I was diagnosed. I'm not sure if it was bad luck the first time or if the second test was more targeted.
36mg methylphenidate, 15mg oxazepam and 10mg propranolol works wonders. It's so easy to interact with the world. World is your playground and everyone are your buddies. Just like when we were children.
It also makes me feel very bad for being so grumpy when I'm not on meds. I'm seriously _so_ _rude_ when I don't want to be around people because of social anxiety and panic attacks. I always think people are judging me and have ill motives. On the other hand, when I'm on meds, it feels like I can understand people just want to get to know me and hang out, spend some time, share some nice feelings, it's not all that big of a deal.
It's too bad we all didn't have happy childhoods. When I'm off meds, I imagine you all people are like the judging and mocking parents I used to have. If you've had to learn to fear something (like the other people around you), the fear will be very deep-seated in you. There's no bigger drive than wanting to stay alive: the fear has once helped me to survive, e.g. to stay away from people who actually want to hurt you. I wonder how a person with a normal, healthy childhood views the world. Do they still operate in the world with all the easiness I also remember having as a child? Of course, everyone has a lot more stress when they become adults, but do they have remarkably less stress than others with background like mine?
You are wrong from the start OP.
Having depression/anxiety means having abnormal moods and reactions when they shpuldn't be there.
For example, I get extreme anxiety attacks when I have to do something important, like taking some papers to a goverment facility like getting a new ID because old one expired or updating my health insurrance. How is it normal to have axiety attacks when everybody else does it like it's nothing?
It IS fucking nothing, and yet I still get the attacks.
Am I bound to be depressed so long as my life situation doesn't change?
>>17150994
I totally agree with you. Eating healthy and exercising can make dealing with depression easier, but saying it's a form of treatment, or even a way to cure it is simply false. You might as well list "have more money" as a form of treatment if we're going to use the same reasoning behind it.
>>17153839
Oh yeah I mean I just already been through therapy and I mean it wasn't all completely bad like I learned a few things from it. Rumination i had to look up and holy shit can I relate to that the constant stream of thoughts that never shuts the fuck up.
>>17154173
Heh, we're quite alike, you and I.
i'm on amphetamine right now and just got my hands on a sample of propanolol, need to start taking it because the social anxiety is so bad my heart rate is in the dangerous range all the time (above 140 in all social situations, even during 3hr lectures and such).
From the little I took, it seems extremely effective. Also reminded me a LOT of being a kid again, before the anxiety set it.
My problem is that every supposed anxiolytic makes the anxiety worse (eg valium, xanax, clonazepam, trazodone, etc). I suspect that's due to the narcolepsy (why i'm taking the amphetamine in the first place): my brain developed a GAD-type response to sedation in order to cope with the sleep attacks and try to prevent them in class back when it started, so sedatives trigger an anxiety response since the brain can't tell them apart from the sleep attacks.
This is really a pickle and i've been mulling it over for a while, haven't come up with a proper solution yet.
>I'm seriously _so_ _rude_ when I don't want to be around people because of social anxiety
Yeah this bothers me deeply. I guess i'm not rude, i'm just cold as hell (i don't say anything or do anything, just sit by myself in the corner and say hi if anyone says hi to me). I don't want anybody to think i don't like them.
i want to somehow declare publicly that i like and want to talk to all of them, i just need to get the anxiety fixed because even though i'm very good at suppressing cognitive anxious thoughts, for me it's almost purely physical/subconscious, my body and mind want to panic and it takes so much brainpower to suppress it that there's none left for engaging, normal conversation.
And yeah same here, this is mostly thanks to my parents and their... interesting approach to child-rearing.
>>17150584
Ok OP how do I cure bipolar 1?
>>17150745
stimulus comes first before brain chemicals
