Why does everyone like Utena so much? It was mediocre at best.
You're mediocre at best
manual viewer detected
>>143837620
Fuck off, false flagger.
>>143837674
Fuck off, /tv/.
>>143837665
You can stay.
>>143837762
I'm not false flagging, I genuinely don't see what is so great about it.
![[アニメ BD] 少女革命ウテナ 第27話「七実の卵」(1080p x264 FLAC 2ch+6ch 10bit chap).mkv_snapshot_09.50_[2016.05.18_14.06.32].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/aYFDi0G.jpg "[アニメ BD] 少女革命ウテナ 第27話「七実の卵」(1080p x264 FLAC 2ch+6ch 10bit chap).mkv_snapshot_09.50_[2016.05.18_14.06.32].jpg")
Don't tell me you didn't like the Nanami episodes.
>>143837620
Sasuga newfag
>>143838572
Why can't you retards move on instead of making threads about things you don't like?
>>143838641
It's weird but, at first I really didn't like Nanami. But she became a real bro towards the end of the series.
Nanami was a really good character.
>>143838727
I wanted to hear from other anons why they praise this show so much
>>143838775
You started the thread, tell us first what you found lacking or mediocre about it
>>143839037
None of the characters were really developed, too much filler, a lot of style over substance, really bad ending.
The show started out with interesting ideas and themes, but they were executed too shoddily for me to give it any respect.
>>143839146
You completely missed the point.
>>143839316
Alright, tell me how I missed it
>>143839146
Actually it's the exact opposite for me. Utena has great directing, at least in the later episodes, but it doesn't help the fact the underlying themes were simply to shallow.
>>143839337
First tell me what themes you liked in the beginning and how you didn't like the end.
OP is a faggot and I wish I had a Nanami to lust over me
>>143838775
Likable cast
Interesting story
Emotionally moving
Very funny
Cool art
Cool music
Basically there are 0 things about this series I dislike, it's a perfect show.
>>143839572
I have to agree.
>>143839402
But I agree with you, the directing was absolutely fantastic. Everything from scene composition to sound direction was brilliant, even moreso in the movie.
I haven't seen many Anime with as beautiful shots as Utena had.
But that's it. Aside from visuals, the plot, characters, themes, and everything else just all fell short.
It was pretty to look at, but I don't think that in itself is enough to praise an Anime.
No one else in this thread is giving me a constructive rebuttal, so I'm pretty much convinced I didn't miss anything.
>>143839476
I liked how it questioned and played with gender roles and worked towards displaying a girl trying to break through the prison-like standards of femininity towards freedom in the eyes of both Utena and Anthy.
But as the show went on the way it was developed and concluded was just dumb and required little to no thought.
The entire series I found Anthy to be the most interesting character and was desperately waiting for her development and for us to learn more about her. But we never do. She just remains a piece of the background in many episodes and her breaking away from Akio at the end is abrupt and never foreshadowed or built up in preceding episodes.
Another thing is just how terrible the writing was, an episode would start with Wakaba thinking about her childhood friend and BOOM, suddenly he appears at the school.
The lesbian student council chick thinks about her old crush and BOOM, suddenly she appears at the school for monster of the week shenanigans.
It was just fucking dumb and predictable, and they did it like 15 times in the show.
>>143839695
>plotfags
>>143839695
Go away gay boy this is an Utena thread not a bad thread
>>143839695
That's a very surface level read of the show. There's a lot of foreshadowing, even just about Anthy, and development as well outside of the last episode. You should be leaning things about her through the Black Rose arc, all the stuff after Utena moves in with her, their confrontation of the roof, etc.
The whole thing has a lot of fairy tale logic, which should be obvious and doesn't hold up as a complaint.
Predictability is the name of the game. That's why there's a revolution.
>>143839758
Real mature response.
But for me to consider a show good it has to excel in every aspect, not just one.
Utena was unfortunately a major disappointment for me, especially after so many anons kept praising it and hyping it up.
>>143839834
>all the stuff after Utena moves in with her, their confrontation of the roof
Those are just 3-5 scenes out of the 40 episodes we have. We never get inside Anthy's mind which is what I was looking forward to the most as soon as I saw her.
The scenes show us her plight, but we never get personal enough with her for them to really matter.
That's why this show is style over substance.
The show itself is superficial and surface, you can't read anymore into it then what it gives you: which is just symbolism and motif, but never any hard solid substance.
>The whole thing has a lot of fairy tale logic
Sounds to me like you're just excusing bad writing. You can write a fairy tale without such terrible forced drama. There are a million ways the show could have gone about displaying these events instead of the most childish way they went with.
![[アニメ BD] 少女革命ウテナ 第07話「見果てぬ樹璃」(1080p x264 FLAC 2ch+6ch 10bit chap).mkv_snapshot_07.16_[2016.05.19_16.06.32].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/spBXybn.jpg "[アニメ BD] 少女革命ウテナ 第07話「見果てぬ樹璃」(1080p x264 FLAC 2ch+6ch 10bit chap).mkv_snapshot_07.16_[2016.05.19_16.06.32].jpg")
>>143839984
>We never get inside Anthy's mind which is what I was looking forward to the most as soon as I saw her.
If you ever rewatch the show, you'll probably see almost every single thing Anthy says or does as acts passive-aggressive hatred towards everyone else in the show. The girl's fucking pissed.
>>143839984
It's not style over substance, you're just saying you don't like the substance. Anthy is the Rose Bride, she doesn't get a say. She doesn't care if she's smacked around or sexually abused. She stands around and people duel, and then it happens all over again. And then you see her stop. That's the point.
>forced
Also this: >>143840128
>>143840128
No shit, even a child could see that.
The problem is we only see it from an outside level. We never hear her thoughts or her talking about herself and how she feels on this. No breakdown or heart-to-heart where her character is finally fully realized to the audience. Nothing.
We get it with Utena and many of the other characters, but never Anthy.
And I'm left to wonder why Utena cares about her so much when she knows even less about her than we do.
>>143839695
Directing is far more than visuals and sound, though. I'm talking about how certain plot points or emotions of the characters were conveyed. There is a scene in Utena, which I still regard as one of the best I've seen in anime, where the sexual relationship between Akio and Anthy is implied by Anthys glasses lying on a table while the two were together. It was such a profane picture in an otherwise metaphor heavy show, that the scene felt incredibly real and had a great impact.
That's why I disgareed with your " but they were executed too shoddily for me to give it any respect.". The excution, in my opinion, was formidable in some parts and at leat decent in the others. However, the underlying scenes like Utenas egoism in wanting to become a prince just weren't especially interesting or well thought-out.
nerds
>>143840249
Because she's literally a walking plot point, which isn't to say she's a bad character.
I could go into a lot of detail about why Utena cares, and how that changes over the course of the show, but I probably won't.
>>143837620
The black rose arc was the only part that was mediocre but it was made justified by the ending, even if it was pretty much filler
>>143840335
I do not understand how it is possible to hold this belief.
director circlejerk
The Black Rose arc isn't my favorite, but it does have some of my favorite parts of the show, namely the elevator scene and the hands literally pointing out symbolism.
>>143840186
I think the substance had potential, but it never goes anywhere and it just feels dumb.
>>143840262
I agree, it was spot on when it came to displaying emotion and the characters' struggles.
I remember the glasses scene quite well as well as a few others.
But what the characters were struggling over and what they were getting emotional over was shallow and there was nothing to think of it, because it wasn't deep or complex in the slightest.
Which just makes me feel this show was a whole bunch of nothing wrapped in a pretty bow.
>>143840332
I was waiting for her to become a character from that plot point, but she never does. It's just a waste of time and bad writing.
If you don't go into detail, then I'll never know. Because from what I saw she barely even knew the girl and even confesses this in the show.
>>143840385
Choke on it.
>>143840368
Ok then please tell me how I'm so wrong in my belief, saying something so vague is just annoying
Fucking die OP I hate you so much fucking choke on a dick and die
>>143840400
Anthy>Utena>Shiori>Nanami>Juri
>>143840423
The show ends with her becoming a character.
>>143840468
#rude
>>143840430
Ikuhara is a great director, but he should leave the writing to someone else.
Same with Anno.
>>143837620
I don't think so
Girl tier list
Juri>Utena>Anthy>>>>>>Nanami
Every other girl is who cares tier
>>143840475
But it doesn't.
The show ends with her leaving Akio and the school to go to Utena but there is never any lead up to why she does this because she was static up until the very end.
We never get to know her, no other character gets to know her, she's just there.
>>143840562
You really weren't paying attention, then.
I liked princess tutu more
>>143840473
>nanami over anybody
>FUCKING SHIORI OVER ANYBODY
>juri at the bottom
Nigga what
How the fuck is shiori anything but dogshit tier, she was a retarded c_ckhold whos only purpose is to be a bitch to juri and be a lying bitch
Juri was the only member of the consul who was realistic or had a good reason for fighting utena, and she also gave utena her sword to fight back against Touga.
>>143840582
I most definitely was and all I got was symbolismm and motif trying to make up for empty characters. It just didn't work.
>>143840562
>controlled by akio
>basically akio's doll and has no opinions or feelings of her own
>in the end tells akio to fuckoff after she realizes how much she loves utena
>escapes the cycle of ohtori when akio wants to start it again
>searches for utena on her own will
>>143840656
In your opinion, of course.
>>143839695
This >>143839834 pretty much outlines why you're not understanding the series, or why you're expecting it to do something other than what it sets out to achieve (and accomplishes), but since you still don't seem to process those points, I want to at least address this:
>Another thing is just how terrible the writing was, an episode would start with Wakaba thinking about her childhood friend and BOOM, suddenly he appears at the school.
>The lesbian student council chick thinks about her old crush and BOOM, suddenly she appears at the school for monster of the week shenanigans.
Anon, given the nature of the Academy and the student body, it makes perfect sense for those things to happen. Don't you understand what Ohtori is? Complaining about that mechanism of the universe is like complaining that the witch in Rapunzel just happened to have a garden of lettuce lying around when the mother was hungry.
>>143840620
>Juri was the only member of the consul who was realistic or had a good reason for fighting utena
Look, I agree about Shiori and Juri, but Miki was great.
>>143840703
Exactly, it's the shallowest and most unoriginal type of character you can have in an Anime.
Even worse is Utena didn't even try to develop her beyond these checklist points of 'development'.
She could have been so interesting, she had so much potential, and I'm just left feeling angry at how she was relegated to literally nothing the entire show.
Non-Japanese will never understand Utena
>>143840748
>why you're expecting it to do something other than what it sets out to achieve
I was expecting a solid show that would introduce complex ideas and themes that would make me think. I didn't get this, and that's why it failed.
I think Utena takes me for an idiot for how cookie-cutter the characters, plot, and themes were aside from a select few.
>>143840832
Now I'm not talking shit about Miki, I love Miki but he had no reason to fight Utena. His love with Anthy was half developed and sorta just dropped, and he being the smartest character in the show (besides maybe akio or touga) had 0 reason not to fight her a second time.
Other then that I loved Miki but I still don't think his reason for fighting was really good, and later on isn't that good either.Also in the manga miki had sex with touga which is pretty kinky considering touga had sex with his sister too
>>143841067
All the males in this show were so fucking ugly except the little shota boy.
>>143841067
>I still don't think his reason for fighting was really good
Only Ruka had a good, noble reason for fighting.
>>143840908
She does get development though, she's constantly trying to break out of her shell by telling utena her problems (on the bed, but she restrains herself because of the fear of her brother), or when she tries killing herself. The ending is her big development where she changes from just a doll to a character.
Anon I think you just had expectations for anthy that didn't fit what you wanted her to be, Anthy is impressive because of how broken she is.
She was the rose bride the entire series, just an object, in the end she went from that to human with a purpose.
>>143840993
You're looking for something 2deep4u, basically. Utena has concrete themes explored within the work--adolescence and coming of age; femininity and masculinity and what they mean; love vs infatuation; abuse; minority issues; what society considers to be pure and impure; among other things--but they're not riddles inside mysteries inside enigmas. You observe the characters and how they fit into and engage with those themes and topics, which they do a good job at displaying.
What did you find to be cookie-cutter?
>>143841067
Miki's fight in the beginning was a misguided attempt to do what he thought would be best for Anthy. He realized he was wrong: in the end, he was thinking of himself.
I appreciated that.
>>143841120
Dios was cute when he was young.
>>143841179
Yeah I'd agree, even if Ruka is a piece of shit.
Utena's reason is good too to protect Anthy but everybody else was manipulated or wanted power.
Miki was manipulated very easily despite being very smart. I guess thats what I mean, its a dumb reason that doesn't fit the character.
>>143841120
Thats because you like feminine males, sure the longer noses looked ugly in some shots but I thought both Akio and Touga had their charms.
>>143841292
>anthy is happy and not abused like she was very visibly like with sanoji
>guess I better save her
It wasn't the best reason and yeah it was self centered for a not super self centered character.
>>143841411
>miki
>not a self-centered purityfag
?
>>143840993
They set up the whole cookie cutter thing specifically to subvert it.
>>143841411
This: >>143841453 Miki's clearly a whiteknight. He really was thinking he knew what was best for Anthy. He was deluded by infatuation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elrwRshCUpk
>>143837620
Because of the skillful and beutiful cinematography, designs and animation. The creative use of repetition and visual metaphors. Great characters and they way in which each arc digs deeper into their psyche. It's unique narrative, which grows darker and more surreal the further you go. The way it reflects themes related to cycles of abuse, maturity and idealism, often by subverting some of the plot and character elements it establishes earlier on itself. The way it can strike the viewers emotions in a variety of ways: it will not just make you sad or happy, it will make you disturbed, angrey, confused and awe-inspired. Add to that the god-tier soundtrack, puppert girls and Utena best girl and you've got yourself a fuckin masterpiece.
>>143841814
>it will make you disturbed, angrey, confused and awe-inspired
>>143841870
Every time.
Its poison
>>143839695
>No one else in this thread is giving me a constructive rebuttal, so I'm pretty much convinced I didn't miss anything.
Fucking hell, what a stupid conclusion to come to. Utena is second only to Eva in the amount of analysis available, there are thesis length writings found easily on google, there are essays on every single episode, the entire thing has been discussed and analysed in every way possible because it's that dense a series. When some moron comes in and tries to complain that it fails at character and thematic development, two things it excels at, it's hard to even know where to begin responding to it.
>>143842823
Eva is even more shallow than Utena, the amount of otaku writing fanfics about it means nothing.
It isn't dense, it just gives off the pretense that it is because there is so little substance but so much imagery that it gives off the impression that it is something deep and intricate, but in actuality it's just giving you opportunities to craft your own meanings out of it. Meanings out of nothing.
It's a cheap and cowardly way to write a story.
>>143837620
The OP itself is enough to make Utena great.
>>143843256
wwwwwwww
>>143841214
But don't you understand that it's cliche and has been done millions of times before? Utena brought nothing new to the table with this overused trope. It did it even worse than usual.
>>143841236
It introduced those themes, and had every opportunity of exploring them in a fantastic and unique way, but it never touched upon them and instead reverted to Sailor Moon monster of the week shenanigans with little to no character development for anyone.
You're left wondering at the end of the series what the fucking point of it all was.
>>143841456
Except the characters become more shallow over time, not the other way around.
>>143843256
I'm not going to sit here and wank over Eva, but I should point out that there's more to analysis than symbolism. Eva's strength lies not in its posturing of religious themes, but its exploration of mental illness and character study. Eva is only 2deep4u if you're trying to make it be. Pay attention to the characters.
>>143843434
>You're left wondering at the end of the series what the fucking point of it all was.
No, you're left wondering that. I didn't wonder that at all. I understood perfectly well what the series was trying to do, and indeed what it did do. It explored its themes with strength and integrity, and I'm sorry you couldn't see that.
>character develop
I can't believe I have to ask again, but do you even understand what Ohtori is?
>>143843664
>I'm not going to sit here and wank over Eva, but I should point out that there's more to analysis than symbolism.
The word I meant to use at the end here was "imagery", sorry.
>>143843664
>Pay attention to the characters.
I did, and the characters are just ripoffs of characters from previous shows with nothing new added to them. They're shallow and anyone with a brain can understand they aren't interesting.
>>143843664
>It explored its themes with strength and integrity
It absolutely didn't, and I posted why it didn't earlier.
It introduced themes at the beginning and never explored them.
It introduced characters at the beginning but never explored them.
Instead it spent all its time on visuals to tell the story instead of providing substance. It's lazy and insulting.
>but do you even understand what Ohtori is?
The name of the school and a plot device to create more false depth.
Utena had nice waifu's but the battles where boring as shit dude
>>143844091
>Utena had nice waifu's
They're all more of less horrible people.
>>143844028
Are you just being obtuse for the sake of it? The entire show is spent developing and exploring its themes and characters.
>>143844091
You're supposed to watch for the inner battles pleb.
all u fags trying to think ur smart go read a book nerds
>>143844452
And I already explained why it failed to do that above. You haven't countered any of my points so until then I deem you not worthy of a response.
>>143844452
the non arguments did not tip you off?
>>143844028
I'm not going to sit here and reiterate again and again why you're wrong. People have taken time to explain what should have been pretty clear. I usually am derisive toward people who say that either Eva or Utena are hard to "get", but it's amazingly, unfortunately fitting in your case. This stuff isn't hard to miss, man.
>>143844681
>You haven't countered any of my points so until then I deem you not worthy of a response
I know you're a bit slow, as you clearly think Eva and Utena are anything but kid show-tier in complexity, but if you don't give me a rebuttal for any of my posts then I can't give you the time of day. Sorry.
>>143844180
Utena is cute and can dunk she's top tier
Nanami is a brocon imouto which is the best genre of girl
because so much of it is repeated throughout the series, viewers need to reconcile the fact that they spent so much time watching the same thing over and over. In order to do this, they convince themselves that it's a good show, and therefore worth their time.
>>143846515
>da empror's cloze
wow, very insightful
>>143846515
That's literally, explicitly, specifically, one of the biggest points if not the biggest point of the show.
>>143840703
Part of the point was that she wasn't without her own opinions or feelings, she chose to let Akio use her because being his object afforded her power over him, because it meant his sense of power was rooted entirely in his ability to control her. She used his tendencies to put herself in a position of importance. That was the flip side to her being the rosebride and the icon of femininity. It's why she was the one everyone wanted, and the one everyone who wanted to be wanted hated, right down to Miki's dad's lover. It's why she assumed the role of the sick kid whose name I can't recall in the Black Rose arc. It's also why she didn't really need saving in the end, why Utena was comfortable leaving her behind in the school, and why she was able to "suddenly" throw off her brother's control the way she did: she was always capable and it was Utena that showed her not only how but the value of doing it at all. In the movie's alternate interpretation of the same themes and symbols, it's the reason Akio throws himself from the veranda. It's why the drugs he slips into her drinks don't work.
>>143846515
like the way you're too stupid to have even baseline media literacy and so instead of taking the time to learn, which would prerequisite you admitting you're an idiot, you instead waste your time contriving excuses to justify not changing your own status quo? It's called ressentiment. You should open a book for once and check it out sometime. Or if you're too stupid for philosophy 101 maybe try something more your speed, like Aesop's fable of the fox and the bitter grapes.
>>143840335
This, I only sat through the torturous Black Rose arc because I had nothing better to do.
>>143846661
that it's a waste of time? I agree
>>143846972
$10 words will not save you from your insecurities
>>143842531
I love that scene.
But, I want to know what it was referencing. Because that sort of situation was very familiar.
>>143847644
P E R U
>>143840249
>We never hear her thoughts or her talking about herself and how she feels on this. No breakdown or heart-to-heart where her character is finally fully realized to the audience.
This all sounds like bog-standard crap writing to me.
I think you just have a shit-taste problem.
>>143840335
It provided some great comedy, though.
>>143840335
It was my favourite arc
>>143837620
>Not appreciating art
>not liking yuri themed anime
>in the year 2016
>probably loves the 3deep5u evangelion
uberpleb detected
>>143849239
>>143840335
It had the best shadow girl segments.
>>143847753
Cantarella poison is an euphemism for "we're having lesbian sex" in japan
>>143840335
You're kidding right.
It had the best music and the most symbolism
>>143849350
You're shitting me.
>>143849447
Google レズビアンのセックス if you don't believe me
Penguindrum or Utena? Which one do you prefer and why?
>>143849435
Best one was where he interviewed the onion prince and let him go after because he was a genuinely good person. I love that so much.
Quick, what is the best duel theme and why is it Shiori's?
All the Black Rose themes in general are fantastic.
>>143849435
>>143849239
So let me tell you why both of you are wrong.
Most people didn't like the black rose arc because story wise it introduced wakaba's sadness, gave sanoji a reason to be in the story, and introduced akio.
Utena animationwise is a poor series because it reuses so much, however this arc took it to the next level with so many reused assets and scenes. It was "I have this problem"+go to this place and freak out and get brain washed into attacking utena.
Was the ending of the arc fucking amazing? Yes. Was the ride there fun? Not really.
It was grating to see the formula repeated so blatantly and it felt predictable for such a offbeat series.
Also the entire series had a 10/10 ost and I didn't find the black rose arc to be any better.
>>143849662
This also upset me. The onion prince guy was a good person but so was almost every other person who went there, so it doesn't really make sense.
>>143849577
Anon thats a pretty dumb question, penguindrum was a bit of a mess and anybody who's seen both series knows utena is better in almost every way.
Penguindrum was like if utena had less planning and effort put into it.
>>143849783
Don't fucking respond to me
>>143849670
>implying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWZrgqhF39w
Juri's first battle theme is the best
>>143849783
BR was clearly cheap filler, but Utena uses it well, the constant stock footage and reused scenes actually give it a sense of dejavu that suits the supernatural tone of the arc.
Besides, so few shows give any consideration to its minor cast that BR has to be praised. Kanae appears only once again I think, and that was only so she could she get cucked to death by Akio.
That's why Black Rose arc is Utena at its best, it further brings out the main cast's crazy mental issues by framing them against minor characters that would otherwise be irrevelant. Hence best girl Nanami is so popular, it's not just Utena or Anthy who develop in this series, even nobodies like Keiko or Shiori are slightly less bitchy by the end.
tl;dr the elevator scenes are fucking great faggot
>>143849872
I prefer Utena but Penguindrum is amazing and a fair comparison. It has advantages in the tone and visuals, depending on your taste.
>>143849783
I don't have a high opinion of Utena but that Akio car thing gives me goosebumps everytime.
>>143850599
This was the single best fight in Utena easily. The ending always gives me chills.
Why did Anthy seem to hate Juri more than the other council members? She was obviously saving Utena by manipulating the sword, but that whole episode was like her sending Juri one big fuck you.
>>143850663
>BR was clearly cheap filler, but Utena uses it well, the constant stock footage and reused scenes actually give it a sense of dejavu that suits the supernatural tone of the arc.
So what you're saying is having 12 episodes of "The Elevator of Depression" Isn't boring? They just never switch it up and I got bored, I was fine with the other repeated scenes through the series.
Shiori only gets more stupid and bitchy later on. Most of the minor characters problems aren't that interesting or are just jumps in logic like Wakaba freaking out over green haired edge lord not wanting wearing her thing. She could of asked him "Hey why aren't you wearing that thing I made for you" or "Hey, how did you get back in school".
The elevator scenes are really repetitive and feel like a waste on the non main character, most of which end up doing nothing and end up going away or being barely feature for the rest of the series.Different strokes for different folks anon, atleast we both like utena
![[アニメ BD] 少女革命ウテナ 第19話「今は亡き王国の歌」(1080p x264 FLAC 2ch+6ch 10bit chap).mkv_snapshot_20.23_[2016.07.08_05.16.31].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kIlaIk7.jpg "[アニメ BD] 少女革命ウテナ 第19話「今は亡き王国の歌」(1080p x264 FLAC 2ch+6ch 10bit chap).mkv_snapshot_20.23_[2016.07.08_05.16.31].jpg")
>>143849783
>>143849662
The author is dead and so on and so forth, but here's what Ikuhara wrote about the episode:
"Why is it that 'the path he must take does not lie here'?
In any other show, a character like him probably would have been designed to gain the audience’s sympathy. However, this is Revolutionary Girl Utena, and the Black Rose arc no less. Anyone to open the door must be baptized.
There are many things in this world that don’t go the way you want them to. But even so, the onion girl is trying to be someone special. She’s fighting.
Isn’t that exactly the story that the Black Rose arc is trying to tell? That’s why there’s no path here for the boy who’s decided to just pray for her happiness from the sidelines.
In most cases, the things that don’t go the way you want them to have been decided by a system. How should we fight when we’re up against a great power, one difficult to oppose? That’s why there’s no path here for the boy who’s quit opposing it and decided to just pray for her happiness from the sidelines."
In other words, the onion prince had less resolve than a little kid like Tsubaki. That's why Mikage didn't have any use for him.
>>143851005
Same here, Juri is the only swordfighter who didn't get their shit pushed in. Even Miki whos suppose to be right under Juri's level got his ass handed too him twice.
I didn't think anthy hated her more then anybody else, and I don't think anthy has the power to manipulate the sword and I like to think it was just a miracle.
You also have to remember Juri constantly gets shit on the entire series with no breaks.
>>143851122
Interesting read but I don't buy it. What makes him lacks resolve? He's confronting his feelings just as much as anyone else, only instead of cursing others he blames his own ineptitude, "why am I no good?" and so on. He's hardly praying for her happiness either, he seems to expect she'll be hurt. He wants her to be happy, yeah, but by his own strength. I think he certainly has conviction, it's just aimed inwards.
>>143851723
He is sympathetic and whole-heartedly in love with Wakaba yes, but he lacks nobility.
Wakaba knows, really, that Saionji won't love her back but she writes her letter anyway. She wants to be the main character of her own life, even though she's going to get hurt. All Black Rose duelists have this in common to an extent.
Onion Prince is content to love her from afar. He never even properly confesses to her onscreen. He knows he can't beat Saionji, so he doesn't try. He'll wait for her to get rejected and pick up the pieces. The Onion Prince is in every way a minor character, like all those who never leave Ohtori he's happy to live a coddled existence without facing any real hardship. He is 'good' in his purity, but he is ultimately self-serving.
>>143841067
>love Miki but he had no reason to fight Utena
Miki is actually fighting for himself and only convincing himself that he is doing it for her, that actually happens with many characters, even Utena. It also shows how Anthy helped Akio manipulate the duelists. She plays the song (that she had no real reason for knowing) and that triggers Miki's nostalgia and his obsession to return to his "childhood garden" with his sister, even though he is just a nostalgiafag that is remembering shit with rose tinted glasses, basically he wants to use Anthy to replace his sister.
>>143840562
You said yourself, she was pissed the whole time. But she couldn't do anything to break the cycle so she kept being Akio's doll, playig the role because that was the point. Also remember the backstory, she loved her brother and the world outside fucking hated her so that's another tether despite whatever she feels now.
Utena breaks the cycle. She finally, in the last episode, actually reaches through to Anthy with real emotion, and it's not through winning the prince game. This shows Anthy it's possible to break out so she does. And yes, Utena doesn't really know the real her well, but that's another thing, she wanted to. That's why she got through to Anthy's coffin, that's what worked, and not the rescue or fighting for the princess bullshit. "I was finally able to meet you."
The repetition is the point. The forced shallowness is the point - girls are only allowed to be pure princesses or bad witches, shallow stereotypes. Even what Utena's prince thing was a fake noble ideal though it was unusual as she was a girl.
Anthy only manages to break free, truly deciding to break from the role in the last few seconds of the anime. Of course we don't get to know much about her, and we don't really need to because the point is she just broke free. But there have been glimpses throughout the show.
Wow, this fanbase sure is fucking awful.
>>143854465
>thread full of well thought out analyses and reasonable arguments
>no shitposting, just legit, on topic discussion
>awful
Most series could only fucking dream of having such decent threads. I've barely posted but enjoyed reading people's interpretations of the series.
