Gonna start off with a question: So I'm reading the Cyborg 009 manga, and multiple times both on and off of /a/ I've been told that a good chunk of it hasn't been scanned; that what is available online is incomplete. And yet on Madokami there are 18 entire volumes, and judging by the art and folder names it seems pretty complete to me. The later chapters seem to be from much later in Ishinomori's career.
Is there actually somehow more to it? Are the Madokami files named wrong, or did the people saying "the rest still needs to be scanned" just not know about Madokami?
For example, this page is from an archive named "Cyborg 009 v17 (City of Wind, Edda)". The art makes it look like it was drawn in at least the late 70s.
>>142260562
From what I can tell, the art started off super-loose, sketchy and cartoony in the mid 60s...
>>142260430
Are you fucking retarded? This is what Wikipedia is for. Or MU, or Google, or any number of sites that aren't imageboards.
>>142260748
...then moved towards a style that was more consistent and less chaotic and had a higher amount of detailed things in it as it went along.
>>142260777
Okay, fuck it.
Wiki only listed 10 volumes, but now I checked the Cyborg 009 wiki and
>"The manga stands at a total of 27 volumes in its most recent re-release by Kadokawa Shoten."
There is indeed stuff missing.
>>142260854
Are you using some 3rd-world-language version of Wikipedia, or did you somehow fail to read a basic info template?
>>142260921
36 volumes in the version the English translation was based on
>>142260963
Nah, the English wiki article for this series is really messed up and the wiki dedicated to the series is where I should have looked instead of asking to be spoonfed after normal Wikipedia failed me.
I'd delete this thread if I could.
>>142261001
Actually, wait a second.
On Madokami, volume 16 is tagged as "Battle with Gods" which is supposed to be a rather late and yet incomplete attempt to complete the series. The last 2 volumes are simply one-shot story arcs from various publications, including the shoujo manga run.
So then, what do the other, remaining volumes contain, out of the supposed 36? The stuff tagged as 16, 17, 18 on Madokami seems like something that would normally constitute the end of a serialization.
>>142261147
Basically the reason I'm confused is that the one-shots appear to be some of the last few chapters that Ishinomori drew of this series. The art, say, the Edda story seems to be at its most solid and consistent which hints that it's from... I suspect the late 70s because Manga Updates says the series stopped in 1979.
So if there really are 36 volumes, what exactly do they contain from 19 onwards? Are the archives on Madokami tagged wrong, and there's actually a lot of stuff missing in the middle?
Bumping because I'm still confused and I want to give this thread one more chance
>>142262604
I can't help, but gosh dang this manga looks cool.
>/a/
>reading old manga
>reading Ishinomori's works
>>142263002
Yeah it does. Until not too long ago I dismissed Ishinomori's artistic skill as "poor man's Tezuka" based purely on Kikaider (which was mainly or entirely drawn by his assistants) instead of the stuff he put serious work into.
But then an anon called me out and I realized the dude kicked ass and was actually better than Tezuka at being artistically versatile. Stuff like Cyborg 009 and Fantasy World Jun mixes realism with cartooniness in a way that I don't think Tezuka ever managed (MW is the most "realistic" Tezuka manga I can think of and it was very stiff and boring).
>>142263208
Most don't, but it's far more likely to find Ishinomori manga readers on /a/ who will instantly post in your thread than on pretty much every other anime community I'm aware of. I've made similar threads in the past and some nice discussion was had.
>>142263240
Also: from what I gather Tezuka said Jun was shit, and I think it was half genuine criticism (it can feel pretty wanky) and half jealousy at at how it creates a type of atmosphere that none of his works could. And I'm saying this as a huge Tezuka fag who will defend his cartoony style to the death (not so much the MW look).
>>142263343
Ishinomori could go from a well-executed shoujo style...
>>142263421
...to something that looks like a cartoonier Lone Wolf & Cub.
>>142263421
>>142263455
And even that one shoujo manga switches styles.
>>142263208
There's been these threads like a few weeks in a row, with at least some interesting discussion. The thing is, there's only so much people can discuss without being repetitive (and having the exact same people).
>>142264412
I'm gonna bring up something new then:
Holy crap, the art style of the 60s Sabu & Ichi anime is really cool. I love the rounder look of the manga too but the anime is surprisingly good with its angular lines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KYml6uGX_c
>>142265030
Of course, the manga is cool as fuck too.
>>142265199
>>142265164
>>142265143
Great stuff.
Sabu & Ichi manga is really good. Whichever anon recommended it, thank you.
>>142263455
Sabu and Ichi predated that.
>>142263343
>Also: from what I gather Tezuka said Jun was shit, and I think it was half genuine criticism (it can feel pretty wanky) and half jealousy at at how it creates a type of atmosphere that none of his works could. And I'm saying this as a huge Tezuka fag who will defend his cartoony style to the death (not so much the MW look).
Want to know the real reason? Jun won the Shogakukan Manga Award that year and Tezuka was expecting Hi no Tori to win.
>>142265707
...that makes perfect sense, haha.
To be honest I do think 60s Phoenix is better work in general from the way I've experienced both (English translations). On the other hand, maybe the kinda pretentious-seeming writing in Jun flows much better in Japanese than it does in the scanlation.
>>142265689
Aw fuck, sorry. But thanks for calling me out.
>>142265757
There's a manga about the entire incident. And also a NHK special on Tezuka and Ishinomori. Jun was serialized on COM, which was supposed to compete with Garo. Tezuka reunited the best manga artists from his generation basically to show how "real" manga artists do experimental avant-garde works. Tezuka started Hi no Tori there and put a lot of effort into it, it was supposed to be his masterpiece up to that point. But Jun stole the spotlight instead.
He didn't told Ishinomori himself about it, it was a fan who had written for Tezuka asking his opinion on Ishinomori's Jun. He said something like "Not a true example of the art of manga". The fan didn't liked Tezuka's response and sent a letter to Ishinomori telling him what Tezuka has said. Ishinomori was devastated.
He decided to quit COM and cancel the series. Later, he went to go ask Tezuka himself about the reason why he said those words. Tezuka said he was sorry for writing that, he did it out of jealousy and admitted it. He then encouraged Ishinomori to keep with the series. Jun also showed up in other manga and Ishinomori continued to produce stories with the character even after COM ceased publication. Those are still not scanlated, though.
>>142266447
I just checked the story again and actually, I got one part wrong. It was not Ishinomori who went to look for Tezuka. Tezuka showed up at the Tokiwa So and said he wanted to apologize in person to Ishinomori after he called COM editor department and requested the cancellation of the series.
>>142266447
>>142266539
When exactly did Tezuka start publishing Hi no Tori in the "experimental, avant-garde" magazine? I know it's not the 50s shoujo version, but I'd be surprised if it were the Dawn story because that one felt kind of insecure. Otherwise very good, but too many out-of-place gags almost as an irony shield from making something too serious.
The Future story felt far more honest. It still had jokes, but they were completely in-context and thus good.
>>142266782
I fucking love how Future treats escapism and nostalgia as a theme. The last time I saw a manga or anime tackle it was Shin Chan: The Adult Empire Strikes Back and Tezuka tackled it in a radically different way.
>>142266810
In fact, I can understand Jun beating Dawn but not Future. What a great fucking story.
>>142266782
>>142266810
>>142266863
They don't specify which Hi no Tori was competing. But Ishinomori got the award twice on 1967 and 1968, one for Jun and the other for Sabu and Ichi. Hi no Tori was nominated but didn't got any award. The arcs published during this time were Dawn, Future and Yamato.
>>142267088
That cover is really unappealing compared to the manga's actual art.
Finished Sabu & Ichi V1. Story-wise it was pretty good but the real star was the way it was all presented. Atmospheric as fuck and good by any standard, but particularly impressive given its age.
>>142266810
I feel like desecrating this great works of art and editing that word bubble to make it say "Y-y-y-our...waifu is shit..."
Started reading Yoshihiro Tatsumi works. Really interesting works, I really liked his short stories.
Reading this thread made me feel like reading some of Ishinomori works. Guess I'll read what is fully Scanlated. Too bad cyborg 009 isn't fully Scanlated because it seems great.
>>142267915
You can pick up 009 even if it's not fully available given that the story arcs are pretty self-contained.
>>142268013
Except the ending, which was apparently a huge mess!
>>142267915
>>142268013
As for Tatsumi, I read a bunch of Abandon the Old in Tokyo and while most of it was pretty suitably depressing the most memorable part to me was theunintentionally funny, post-bestiality "crying dramatically shaded dog" panel.It was fucking hysterical for all the wrong reasons.
I kinda want to check out his earlier work Kuroi Fubuki though.
>>142268051
Ishinomori never got to end it so his son did, or something? I quickly skimmed through the history of the 009 finale on the Cyborg 009 wiki and I don't remember the details.
I skimmed through the "ending based on Ishinomori's notes" manga and the art ALMOST captures Ishinomori's magic but doesn't quite get there.
>>142266447
I don't think any of them even touched what made Garo so successful and so amazing. Just the way they went about it, feeding starving artists and the general lack of pretension. Some of that shit was just awful, but awful in a good way.
Were ugly bland covers that don't showcase the style on the inside a regular thing for "artsy" manga back in the 50s and 60s? >>142267088
Because goddamn this cover is hideous too.
>>142268186
But then the art on the inside is instantly appealing.
>>142268107
Is there anything from Garo that's been scanlated?
>>142268186
It's not limited to the 50s and 60s. I think that's more a problem of editors as well. Also, that cover must have been conjured up afterwards (probably in haste), because in the most likelihood it was originally collected in a group of stories. A Drifting Life probably reveals more about it.
Garo covers for instance are always a gem.
>>142268242
Quite a lot. Although quite a bit are translated by actual publishers. Like Tatsumi's stories?
>>142268242
The colouring really reminds me of western superhero comics.
>>142268278
Small in terms of all of them published. There's like issues from the 60s to the 90s or so. That scanner guy has been scanning a whole bunch of them though in the off chance anyone wants to translate them.
Man, digging up info about magazines like COM and Garo instantly brings up "anime culturists" whose opinions and "facts" I absolutely can't take seriously at all.
For instance, how can I know if Murasaki Yamada actually considered her manga to be "feminist" given that the only person who described it as such and who everyone else sources was seemingly Frederik L. Schodt; a man who, despite knowing Tezuka in real life and working for Tezuka Productions as a translator since at least the 80s...
- Spreads the misinformation that "Osamu Tezuka drew like Walt Disney" (this is complete bullshit on so many levels I don't even know where to start)
- Had no idea who General Custer was in 2003 when Phoenix was translated
- Refers to Tezuka as one of the "literary greats" despite his writing being the weakest thing about him as a creator and the furthest from what made him a genius; constantly tries to get away from talking about his actual drawings because he knows nothing about it
- Said Swallowing the Earth was Tezuka tackling a "more realistic style" even though its art is more stylized and loose than Astro Boy at its wackiest
I'd honestly rather trust random anons from /a/ who can read Japanese than any of those guys who are only taken seriously for being in the right place at the right time.
>>142268307
Yeah, but the art itself is infinitely cartoonier. I frankly love that in terms of character designs and expression Japanese artists took influence from stuff like Fleischer cartoons and Disney comic artists like Carl Barks and Floyd Gottfredson instead of the far blander and stiffer super hero stuff. Imagine how fucking boring Astro Boy would be if it looked like a Superman comic from the time.
>>142268526
>- Had no idea who General Custer was in 2003 when Phoenix was translated
I know I've pointed this out before but I still can't get over this one fucking panel. The western classic manga-licensing industry is a cancerous lump upon what is otherwise a treasure trove of great stuff.
>>142268526
>>142268569
Also, to elaborate on the Disney thing: people who say "Tezuka drew like Disney" are colossal faggots.
Walt Disney himself didn't actually draw or animate shit, and his company is not a monolithic hivemind. Carl Barks drew nothing like Floyd Gottfredson who drew nothing like Marc Davis. Simplifying his complicated list of influences to "durrhurr Disney" is the most intellectually lazy thing one could possibly do (and also ignoring his influences beyond Disney; the man constantly hit readers over the head with his love of Popeye and yet no one mentions that as an influence).
>>142268526
Schodt is somewhat full of shit. I wouldn't trust his opinion.
Whenever I read any sort of concerted blog about the merits of different manga, my eyes normally roll over. Ryan Holmberg's essays are generally quite good, although he admits he was full of shit when started out. I would trust his translations far more than Schodt.
I always feel skeptical whenever someone mentions any more modern movements in terms of feminism, or better still, transgenderism (please kill me). While I'm aware that people are mindful of all kinds of things, they clearly were not a focus and weren't intended to pander to your need for approval (especially by someone who no longer exists).
>>142268776
I'm not against people identifying as feminist; a lot of them are retards, but one of my best friends does and he's one of the smartest people I know. What bothers me is when people in the movement try to claim other people's art as part of their movement, *even when those artists specifically distanced themselves from the movement*.
As an example, Wikipedia cites Persepolis as a "feminist comic", linking two sources. One of the sources specifically states that Marjane Satrapi dislikes what the word has come to represent and does not identify as such... but then proceeds to say the comic is ~OBJECTIVELY FEMINIST~ because feelings. A quick google search brings up a ton of quotes proving Satrapi's willful detachment from the term.
Ryan Holmberg made a major fuck-up in his writing too: failing to acknowledge the initially-censored twist ending in New Treasure Island, which thematically justifies its western animation/comics pastiche nature. And his writing style reads too much like fiction. When I want to be informed, I want to be informed; not read a mystery novel about Tezuka's Disney comic influences.
>>142269038
You'll get the same people who'll talk about a novel that can be interpreted in this way and that when the author thought nothing of it. 'There's no wrong way to interpret literature.' They'll talk about subliminal messages or undertones. While I do agree, there are some very clearly wrong ways to interpret a piece of work.
>>142269125
Though I do want to say that Holmberg is far better than the "anime scholars". He actually does his own research, has knowledge of cartoons and comics and pieces stuff together using said knowledge. He's far more honest than the "anime historians" who will make endless literary allusions and talk about Japanese history but suck complete shit when it comes to visuals, which is what actually DEFINES the mediums of animation and comics. Ryan is interested in the visual side and has genuine knowledge about it which by default makes him better than Helen McCarthy, Jonathan Clements and all those other ANN-clique hacks.
>>142269191
ANN has one single article about the 009 manga and it doesn't say a single word about how it's drawn or how the panels are composed or anything of the sort. As if it were a freaking book.
>>142269226
It's like the game journalists who write verbose English class essays about how such and such industry-shilled "triple-A" title finally turned gaming into an artform and fuck you dad and fuck you roger ebert.
>>142269256
And don't get me wrong, I think writing is also a huge part of manga. It's just that it's not its defining quality, and the way so many "anime experts" completely ignore this defining aspect is ridiculous.
>>142269282
Oh and plus there is completely wordless manga that is cool as fuck.
>>142269191
>>142269282
I'm not convinced on the defines. It's just that all the subtlety is wrapped much more opaquely in the imagery than the writing. It's always about the combination of the two, as a coherent story.
>>142269308
see
>>142269299
Also, the final story in Sabu & Ichi v1 is almost completely wordless.
But anyway, what I mean is that the visuals, namely the sequential art, are what defines comic books AS a medium. Just as writing defines books, sound defines music, moving defines movies and gameplay defines games. It's the core aspect that makes the medium what it is. If you take away the drawings, it's not a manga anymore.
This chapter is so fucking bizarre but great.
>>142263208
I read Skullman recently and am also reading Shimamoto's remake/sequel of it.
http://www.pixiv.net/search.php?word=%E4%BD%90%E6%AD%A6%E3%81%A8%E5%B8%82%E6%8D%95%E7%89%A9%E6%8E%A7&order=date_d
>extremely misogynistic edo period manga with graphic-for-its-time guro-esque imagery of women being chopped up, decapitated, raped etc
>most fan art is by fujoshi
somehow I'm not surprised
