Are you supposed to take this horribly written Saturday morning cartoon villain seriously?
>>142086328
You're supposed to actually read far enough to see why he's a crazy old coot.
You're not supposed to take Fate series seriously
>>142086328
In his small stint, he was portrayed far more realistically than the other characters. First, his motivations are rooted in achieving a wish he has held for several centuries: to achieve the Third Magic. To reach that end, he has forced himself to become basically immortal; thus, his delusions make far more sense than Kirei’s “Lolyuetsu” and Gil’s “Lol big ego.” He has essentially sacrificed his humanity to become a magus devoted to a single lifetime goal, so simply, he embodies the backwards nature of magi Nasu has been trying to show us throughout his works. Sure, what he did to Sakura was heinous, but most Nasuverse characters in general have done heinous things, and they are still appreciated and loved. Plus, as a villain, you would expect him to do such things. So why not Zouken? He is vastly underrated by the masses.
Some say Kirei is so well-written and thus the best villain, but I find it quite the contrary. Most of Kirei’s character was written to be a foil to Shirou, and thus an ultimate source for his development throughout the story of FSN. When you really think about it though, his motivations make absolute sense. He is just a glorified “evil for the sake of evil,” and before some try to say that his character is much more complex than that, I will tell you right now that that it isn't. Hell, unlike Kirei, Zouken actually went through development. By the end of the route, as he was dying, he bitterly regretted his actions and recalled what he had really wanted upon seeing Illya in her Dress of Heaven. It really showed how good intentions could be corrupted over time, as he kept his relentless pursuit of the power of the Grail System. As for Gil, there is literally no argument. He is just an arrogant prick who does what he wants, when he wants with absolutely no real motivation. Not much depth there, and I acknowledge that most of his fans mainly like him as a guilty pleasure.
Tl;dr? Zouken is the best character in FSN.
LITERALLY
P O R N
O
R
N
>>142087266
He´s an old man. Not even a fat old man, so useless for doujins even.
>>142086328
Fate is a fucking eroge, covered with chuuni cringe. So no.
>>142087552
>>142087552
I'm about 6 hours into the Fate VN and it's pretty fun.
I only played shit like Rondo Duo or other random shit before so this is pretty good as an introduction to VNs.
Thinking about getting Higurashi on Steam, but only if there's a way to add the PS2 sprites to the game, the old ones and the new ones are both shit.
Where should VNs be discussed btw? /a/ or /v/?
>>142087692
>I-I can not say anything against the truth
Go back to lelddit with your stolen secure blanket memes.
>>142087552
>>142087825
>Am I fitting yet?
>>142087825
>long thought out explanation on why Zouken is a good character
>HES USELESS FOR DOUJINS
Fuck. off.
>>142087825
It's time to stop.
>>142087795
>Liking the most boring first act
Well if it´s your first of course it is fun. We all loved Naruto, Death Note and what not. But after some year of the same bs, you get tired of it.
Anyway, the sex is bad, so don´t expect to fap. /jp/ for VNs, but Fate is old and stale, they mostly discuss new stuff.
Read more, play more, watch more.
Zouken is actually sort of a neat character, in that he's basically a living example of how clinging to a goal beyond all reason can completely destroy you, both figuratively and literally in Zouken's case. He has been chasing the Holy Grail for so long that he completely forgot why he wanted in the first place; he actually ends up deciding it had to be for the selfish reason of repairing his soul, because he's so far gone he can't even remember he used to care about other people.
It's an interesting parallel to HF Shirou, who rapidly bleeds through all his memories trying to protect the people he cares about. And for both of them, in the end remembering the person they loved was all it took for everything to come back.
Incidentally, F/GO has pretty much been "you know that Zouken's actually pretty awesome, right?" Dude was a fucking monster in his youth. Well, okay, he was a monster in his old age too but a literal one, not a figurative one.
>>142087925
You read Fate for the intricate plot and characterizations, not the porn scenes. Also Naruto really? If you're going to make an analogy, it's the Eva of VNs.
>>142087897
Is the truth you little fatefaggot. The guy is unattractive. And that is the only reason he is not on anyone´s fav list. Fucking Gil is killing lolis, but he looks good while doing it. Is not that hard to see why OP is asking a dumb question. Nobody would like Saber if she was a old hag with saggy tits.
Don´t take joke OP so serious champ.
>>142088040
Speak for yourself retard
Before the endless body surfing eroded everything about him away, Zouken was crazy overpowered. Like, he was the guy who came up with the Command Seal system in the first place, and he helped draft the Holy Grail War along with Zelretch and Justeaze.
Fast forward to modern day and the most you can say about him now is that he's real hard to kill.
>>142088022
Oh stop it. Is a shounen battle series with cringe mana sex. And read the post, Fate has been the first VN for a lot of people. Naruto was the first anime for a lot of people (Dragon Quest anime for me), chill. Not implying it is Naruto. Don´t be so insecure.
>>142086328
>Taking Fate seriously at all
I only enjoy game iteration of Fate. CC EXTRA was great, and I look forward to the Dynasty one. Shame the mobile one is just a gacha slot machine.
>>142088215
>mfw we steal reddit pics.
Zouken's big issue is that all of the important parts of his characterization are dumped on you in one scene near the very end. It's obvious how he's supposed to parallel HF Shirou, but you really don't care that much since at this point you're knee deep in the HF finale and want to see Shirou and Kotomine being the shit out of each other.
It's sort of a similar problem as Sakura, actually.
>>142088215
Your 7 layers of denial? Fate is entry level shit just like Naruto
>>142088150
he looked like Berserker crossed with Lancer
>>142088163
>whole point of the VN is to deconstruct a typical shounen mindset of "saving everyone" while exploring different philosophies
>it's a shounen battle series
Yeah ok buddy don't respond to me until you read the thing.
>>142086328
>he takes nasu stories seriously
>>142086328
What's wrong with his head?
>>142088332
Whatever you say patrician anon, now go post keit-ai in some other thread to show them how much you fit here
>>142088368
>Treating F/SN as if it's actually decent literature.
Yeah, no.
>>142087266
>Kirei is evil for the sake of evil
Motherfucker did you read the VN?
>>142088368
>deconstruct shounen
>the very first popular western shounen VN
>older than fairy tail manga
>Self insert MC
>Turn self insert to cool edge
>Even a real edge version of him
>Thinks all shounen are about saving everyone
You are simply putting Fate on a pedestal while ridiculing other shounen series. Don´t be cancer.
>>142088411
F/SN seeks out to tackle man's quest for heroism and captures it through a series of methods including humanistic self-actualization and psychodynamic perspectives across multiple universes. Both of which are consistent themes throughout the whole novel.
It's literature. Get over it
>>142088242
>Liking EXTRA
>>142088332
Is entry level for vn so for people already into anime and stuff related, naruto is entry level for normalfags.
>>142086328
He isn't even a villain you should read the VN.
>>142088495
>Self insert MC
Stop reading there
>>142088495
>>Self insert MC
Stopped reading there.
>Fatefaggots thinking Fate is high-tier /lit/ material
Every damn time. Every damn time. The threads would have been so much more fun if we could talk about waifus and what legendary heroes we want. This is why I usually only post in FGO general. Fate outside of that is pure cancer.
>>142087925
I like it because it's slow paced and I feel good playing it, also I can make choices and get bad ends(I assume I can?) like in Corpse Party, that is pretty neat.
I've been watching and reading dark shit for the past few weeks(reading Berserk right now) so this VN is a nice change of pace.
I got the uncensored version but I don't expect to fap, only got it cause I don't wanna play anything censored.
After playing this I'll probably play Higurashi, Umineko, and then Rance and the one where the chick breaks the 4th wall if that has been translated.
>>142088495
>Self insert MC
What the fuck am I reading
>>142088514
Shitty literature and a great plot wasted by a mediocre author.
>>142088586
>Cancer thinking he isn't cancer
Every time. If you want to circlejerk waifus fuck off elsewhere, FSN is the about themes of heroism and idealism.
>>142088603
>Eroge can't be literature
>>142088530
Why are you pretending Fate is not normalfag entry series? My niece and his friend have watched it. And they mostly watch SAO, Bleach, HxH and the usual entry shows.
>>142088586
>no liking best fate
>>142088514
It is an intensely mediocre story at best that brings up a lot of topics but doesn't adequately explore them particularly well beyond characters monologuing at you on what they think about it.
F/SN was one of the first things Nasu wrote. It is pretty impressive considering that, and I suppose it's better than Tsukihime, but it's not good by a long shot. The best thing you can say about it is that uses its format well, and even then that ends up screwing over all attempts at adapting it.
>>142088603
>stories with sex can't be good literature
>>142088650
>watched
The fanbase for the most part accepts that the anime adaptations are shit. Read the VN.
>>142088650
>My niece and his friend have WATCHED it
>kindergarten reading comprehension
Fate is shit. The only good thing out of this shit franchise is Fate/Zero. Now get out of here, there's nothing to see.
>>142088603
No denying the premise is 10/10 setup for cool fights. Is a shame Nasu is such a hack. Quite interesting how Uro loaned the Fate franchise and outdid Nasu with Zero. But it was way too edgy to be taken seriously, still, better than Nasu.
>>142088648
>>142088685
This strawman. If you think people are saying its bad writing because of the sex (which feels like it was written by a virgin), then it's no surprise you're retarded enough to defend it as good.
>>142088514
>Baiting this hard
Not even insane fans honestly believes that. But nice try, 7/10. Have a (You).
>only 3-5 years until porkslope remake and the inevitable anime finally take the shitposting spotlight off of Fate/Gay Nigger
>>142088745
That's literally what he said though
>>142088804
>Literally
Not even implied. Calm down, remove your hostility and tackle the post with clarity.
>>142088682
List of things FSN "adequately" explores:
The essential nature of heroic ideals, and an in-depth exploration on what would motivate someone to follow that path. The idea of selfish actions for selfless reasons. A dilemma between logic and emotion (Rin's conflict). The idea of facades and how we hide ourselves within society. Consequentialism and regret; nihilism (Saber's conflict). Existence and individuality (Shirou's "rebirth" following his death in the fire). The meaning of choice. Contrasting of several different philosophies (Pragmatism, Altruism, Idealism, Utilitarianism, etc). Perceptions of people (very overt with the way Shirou perceives his father vs everyone else). Cultural expectations of good and evil (Shirou/Kirei). Consent and fate (Medea and EMIYA). Societal values and morality.
>>142088745
You didn't refute the post your responded to in any way, but posted a screencap from one of the sex scenes, implying that it's somehow bad because of them.
>>142088798
>RWBY
Why the fuck are you associating best mask with that shit?
I kind of feel sorry for Nasu in that everyone here judges him on something he wrote like 12 years ago based off a story draft he made in high school. If you went up to Nasu and told him to his face that you think Fate is overexposed trash, he would probably shrug and agree because seriously, it was one of his first efforts.
Then again I guess it doesn't help that everybody only talks about Tsukihime and Fate, and not his more modern stuff like Witch on the Holy Night or DDD.
>>142088875
Because he has to try THAT hard to bait people?
>>142088846
>Is HxH
Well I guess HxH is the masterpiece of the century. Even Toriko can be seen has deep if you want to.
>>142088846
If you think bringing up a topic is adequately exploring it, then you're too far gone to be seriously reasoned with.
Well I guess it's not a bad thing to really like something.
Archer is a hack character, he does true magic-like shit with magecraft and only demigods like lancer can actually stop him.
Three Crane Wing is the most broken shit in the whole franchise, if he throws K&B and they can either be broken phantasms, or the real ones used for comboing, he can trick any enemy like this.
spam 10k broken phantasms in a few minutes? whole cities destroyed in less than 2 days
damn can he even destroy an entire country in 1 week for fucks sakes
>>142088889
>I feel sorry for Nasu for writing one of the biggest and most famous eroge in story because /a/ judges him
PORN WITH A PLOT
>>142088889
I wish I could talk about those, but the lack of translation for Type-Monn stuff is impressive. That and heroes going at it is so entertaining
>>142088941
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>142088846
>trying this hard
Most of those can be seen in ALL fiction, even in shitty literature for children. The difference is that, due to its educational character, literature for children ACTUALLY tackles said themes instead of just bringing them up without any confrontation nor closure. You are reading WAY too much into this shitty VN.
>>142088889
Nasu knows Night, UBW and HF are shit. That´s why he distanced himself from it for a while to work on his other works. The problem is autistic manchildren are clinging onto it as his magnus opus.
>>142088889
>>142088972
Yeah, public perception of Nasu among EOPs is over a decade old. In the Japanese speaking community he is highly respected as a creator for stuff like CCC, Mahoyo, DDD, ect.
You can't deny the charm of his older stuff, though. FSN has plenty of depth despite its reputation being ruined by memes, and Tsukihime is engaging once you get past how dated it can be.
>>142088983
Maybe this
>>142088889
the writing is shitty, but that doesn't mean it's not enjoyable
>>142089067
Sorry, but narrative-oriented arts will be shitty if the narration is bad.
>>142089055
That's not my hiatus x hiatus
>>142088846
Holy fuck. There are furry sex fan fiction that brings up more deep themes if you really tried. Taking a theme, bringing up the problems, solving it and getting a good morale out of it is different from mentioning a dyke that have mommy issues because she was raped by the rabbid and now suffer from PTSD because the guilt of fucking dogs is making her hate cats.
Your shit is pasta worthy though.
>>142088947
If I were to list things it simply brought up we would be here all day. Everything in that post was at LEAST adequately explored, and I even underlined which character arcs contained those themes if you need a refresher.
>>142089013
>instead of just bringing them up without any confrontation nor closure
Elaborate with few examples in the VN. Because most of what >>142088846 mentioned had closure.
>>142088650
>My nice and his friend have watched it
>have watched it
>watched
>W A T C H E D
>niece
>his
>W
>A
>T
>C
>H
>E
>D
Fate is the greatest written fiction to ever grace us filthy white pigs. I have only read Fate and seen Fate, but it is without any doubt the very best of the best. My bible, my life.
>>142089173
>Taking a theme, bringing up the problems, solving it and getting a good morale out of it
That's exactly what it does. Jesus fuck, read the VN.
>>142089159
Sorry, it got replaced. Now you will have your shitty harem and you will like it
>>142086328
There's nothing Saturday cartoon villain about him. If you want something close to a Saturday cartoon villain in the Fate series, go look at the Fate/Zero Caster.
>>142089338
>not Gil
>>142088846
This reminds me of that screencap of someone arguing Naruto was deeper than classic literature, but I can't be bothered to search for it in my folder.
>>142089389
He is too fabulous
>Fatefags:
articulate, well reasoned arguments detailing the themes of the visual novel and why they make for a rewarding experience, directly pointing to the character arcs to round out their points.
>anti-fatefags:
HURRDURR CHUUNI SHOUNEN SELF NARUTO INSRT SHIT WRITING NASU IS A HACK
Every time.
Heaven's feel villains are straight out of a cartoon, yes
Sakura is literally, LITERALLY Coldsteel the hedgehog if it was a cute anime girl
Why's the sound quality so shit in F/SN? The dialogue is hurting my ears.
Fairy Tail brings up the themes of social understanding, tackles perception of people and racism (the Oni Island arc), social relationships (choosing your friends over your family), consequentialism and regret (Gray and Lyon's common story about Deliora, Erza's story with the Tower), the confrontation of several views of the world (Altruism via the Guild, Darwinism with Phantom Lord, how people can value friendship more than their own lives)
>>142089576
Kirei is one of the best villains I've seen, or at least one of the most unique. He redeems Sakura.
>>142089602
What version are you playing?
>>142089633
Yeah, not saying Fate is bad, I also liked Kirei a lot. It's just that Heaven's Feel is pretty trash for what it tried to do.
>>142089633
The old Fuwanovel version that I downloaded years ago.
>>142089426
Early Naruto does have some depth to it though. There's a reason the series received so much praise when it first came out. It literally rode off of the success of the chunin exam for its entire run.
>>142089524
Fatefags have to compensate for liking a powerlevel waifu simulator by acting super "mature" in an attempt to get people to take them seriously.
It's funny that you can have 200+ posts threads without a single valid, logic and critical argument from shitposters against this series. It's just strawmen and Ad hominem left and right.
And somehow not shitting on Fate for the dumbest of reasons is an equivalent to consider it "the greatest piece of literature ever conceived", go figure.
>>142089670
I wouldn't call it trash but it's my least favorite route.
>>142089672
http://sukebei.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=704566
>>142089228
I'm still waiting for my train to come in, so let's take a look at the first thing you brought up.
>The essential nature of heroic ideals, and an in-depth exploration on what would motivate someone to follow that path
What exactly is a "heroic ideal" here? I assume you're talking about Shirou wanting to be a hero, but what the fuck /is/ a hero?
Well you won't find out in F/SN, because all of the exposition you get regarding heroes is 99% Shirou's extremely personal definition of what a hero is. And in his case, it's being a fucking superhero, not a hero. That's why he even ends up with the silly-ass "to be a hero, someone has to be in danger!!!" and "if I save one person, I must let others die!!!" moral conundrums that western comic books have done to fucking death, because he's explicitly trying to be a comic book superhero. So already the scope has been limited extensively to the point that the most you could say Fate talks about "heroic ideals" is bringing up that there are heroes and I guess it's a good thing to be one?
Moving on, why's it essential for there to be heroic ideals? I guess you could argue that as long as there are heroes, there will be hope, or maybe that evil only wins if good people do nothing or oh wait F/SN doesn't talk about why it's important for there to be heroes, it just has Shirou say he wants to be a hero because hero. Hero. HERO!
What's left? Oh right, "an in-depth exploration on what would motivate someone to follow that path". Are you just fucking joking now? Shirou wants to be a hero because of his backstory. That 's it. And again, a comic book superhero at that. F/SN spends more time talking about how Shirou's backstory fundamentally broke something in him than how it made him want to be a hero.
I could do this for every other point you bring up, but there's be no point since you'd just cover your ears and scream about how I JUST DON'T GET IT THIS STUFF IS LEGIT.
>>142089721
Is your image supposed to support your argument or something? The fanservice antics in Hollow Ataraxia are all part of its greater message, with the ending being pretty goddamn spectacular.
>>142086328
>>142087266
>taking porn literally
>>142089801
>implying the porn wasn't just slapped on to increase sales
>>142089863
>Nasu: I really wanted to make it a work that would make the users want to get to know Saber and Rin better, or cuddle with Sakura.
Hmm...
>>142089742
Identity or Self is something we build from childhood. We (in Nasuverse) start with our origin and then surround ourselves with our parents, etc. That is what separates us from "Akasha" and builds up the I that makes us themselves an individual. Surroundings, past, memory, beliefs, love, relationships. Every foundation of self burned down in that fire.
Shirou is a building without foundation. The foundation burned and on top of that, the ideal was put as a bandaid.
As Shirou himself states: "There's no such thing. Kiritsugu merely saved me. And you talk about taking something from me, but at that time... I had nothing to give."
The fire burned out his identity.
Seeing Kiritsugu's smiling face, sparked a wish to be happy in him and he, as a machine, longed to replicate that smile.
He is pretty much an "inverted Kirei" in that aspect. The only difference between them is the way they try to attain their happiness.
"Consider it a friendly warning. We are the same, you and I. As we do not have clear wishes, we cannot seek salvation."
That is the reason Kirei is so interested in him in the first place.
>>142089801
You're supposed to take it figuratively?
>>142089742
I'm not him but damn dude, have you even played the visual novel? Cause that was actually full retard.
Here's a writing tip, if you want your work to discuss something then you should introduce more than one valid viewpoint. Because, you know, it's supposed to be a discussion.
Here's another one: having a bunch of "deep" topics or themes doesn't make a story good, because the more of them there are the less likely any of them got the time they really needed. Just look at fucking, A Certain Magical Index or something, that's like the perfect example of a work throwing in so many themes and topics that the entire story suffers.
If you ask me, if F/SN is about anything it's about coping with grief. But I guess that's not as badass sounding as "the meaning of good or evil".
>>142089742
How is a personal definition of what it means to be a hero in a story discussing the concept of what it means to be a hero not a valid definition of what it means to be a hero? What point is there to be super literal about the difference between a hero and a superhero when they're the exact same thing?
>Moving on, why's it essential for there to be heroic ideals? I guess you could argue that as long as there are heroes, there will be hope, or maybe that evil only wins if good people do nothing or oh wait F/SN doesn't talk about why it's important for there to be heroes
How can anyone who's read or watched either F/Z or FSN even state this? This is one of the most basic and blatantly obvious answers found in the series and contributes to the motivation of why Shirou and Kiritsugu go to the lengths at which they do to be heroes: so that no one ever has to suffer and that all people can be happy. This even applies to other characters in their own world views like Saber or Gil in their own definitions of what heroics are and the responsibilities that they believe they shoulder.
>>142089961
>use of made up fantasy shit are supposed to mean something for us in the real world
>"We (in Nasuverse)"
>actually self-inserting in the universe
You're too far gone, anon. I'm afraid there's no saving you.
Poor Zouken, nobody took his thread seriously either.
>>142089958
>or cuddle with Sakura.
Well, he failed there. I can't stand Sakura.
>watch Fate Zero
>Unique roster of Heroes and Masters, great music and direction
>ufotable UBW
>High school setting with focus on a couple masters; took everything good about F/Z and throws it out the window
I'm starting the VN but something tells me I'm going to be disappointed.
>>142090043
>if F/SN is about anything it's about coping with grief
That's actually the most convincing thing I've read in this thread so far, even without any argument.
>>142090092
If I started a thread saying that K-On gives us an in depth look at music on the same level of Beethoven, would you take it seriously? There's a reason people just post bait pictures in Fate threads. It's because it's long since gotten to the point where people will bring up the same stupid criticisms again and again that no one wants to deal with them anymore.
>>142090087
To be fair I played a lot of FGO recently. Though the fantasy terms there have a human context, so you didn't really refute or even address my poiint
>>142088492
Not him but I did and still agree with him. I love kirei but he's clearly described as a psychopath who can only enjoy making other people suffer. So yes he's evil for the sake of being evil
>>142090157
It's divided in 3 routes and focuses on different masters and servants in each one, and spends the rest of the time in awful cooking lessons filler, listening to Shirou's retarded thoughts of everything and dying a lot.
I'm actually glad I went from the VN to Zero animation and was not retarded enough to go the opposite direction, otherwise I would have dropped the franchise.
>>142090157
FSN is never F/Z 2: The next battle royale if that's all you read the series for. FSN is three separate wars told in parallel that all focus on a smaller cast of characters in each story centered around the protagonist, which is why the cast of FSN is much better developed than F/Z and stuff like Carnival Phantasm or FHA can even exist.
I don't see why you'd bring up the high school setting since it's dropped in every route pretty much right at the beginning of the story.
>>142090267
Well there are some cool LNs and even a game coming out so I'll stick with it for now.
The best part about Fate/Zero is how it's actually the worst intro imaginable to the Fate series.
>>142090043
Actually, that fits the entire main line now that I think about it.
Even Zero's "Dialogue of Kings" boils down to " >I lost, but I laughed as hard as I cried!
>I lost, but I'm a winner, so I'll just keep playing!
>I lost, and I crucify myself for letting down everyone who ever trusted me...
>You're a fucking shitty king bitch.
It's all about coping. Because it's far more interesting to see how Speed Wheels and Bugz lost the war and tried to handle it rather than watching Kirei "win".
>>142090220
There's nothing to refute, you are just stating facts about a fantasy world and saying it bears themes. But your little thing is just random philosophy for highschoolers that does not bear any consequences on reality and doesn't ACTUALLY tackle any real world issues.
>>142090157
FSN isn't a story about a Grail War, moreso it's a story told through Shirou's eyes about Shirou as a way to debate the flaws of idealism. I won't say which is the better work, both are good, just don't expect them to be the same.
>>142090240
Personally I agree with your reasoning, but I think the phrase "evil for the sake of being evil" doesn't quite capture his character.
>>142090346
Yes lack in self-worth is totally not a thing in the real world.
>>142086328
But that's Gil.
>>142090299
You gotta be kidding me
They left out a lot of shit about the servants in the VN that they had to include in Hollow Ataraxia
More developed my ass
>>142090336
That says a lot about the Fate series.
>>142090367
Agreed, I think the distinction is important. Kirei is technically "evil for the sake of evil", but more of a self-reflective kind, which is something you dont often see in fiction.
>>142090418
Well, servants is debatable. But Rin and Shirou by the end of the prologue are already more developed than the entire FZ cast.
>>142090351
>FSN isn't a story about a Grail War, moreso it's a story told through Shirou's eyes about Shirou as a way to debate the flaws of idealism.
Fair enough, I just hope it's not shoved down my throat like the animation.
>don't expect them to be the same.
There's obviously so much thought put into the back story of the Holy Grail War, but it's almost appalling that Nasu went with writing a story about this lame MC.
>>142090351
>have a setting that is central to the story
>somehow said setting is actually not important
Every fucking time.
>>142090386
Yeah, self-inserting, just as I thought. Eva did this shit thousand times better by ACTUALLY dealing with the issue without having a character acting like a non-human. As humans, we have what science called "instinct of self-preservation" and EVERYBODY has this shit. Even if you don't have self-worth, every being has a will to live so long as you're not affected by heavy depression or shit like this. Shirou had NOTHING like this, he's just a random human affected by realistically impossible conditions.
>>142090489
>it's appalling that Nasu chose to write a character study instead of a typical "war" action shit
Ok then
>>142086381
>No, he's actually a well-written villain, you just have to keep on reading until it's shown!
Yeah no. That's called bad writing.
>>142090418
Most of the stuff you claim "they left out" was probably already in the VN and just got expanded upon in FHA. Other than more indepth looks at Rider and Lancer's backstories as heroes, their personalities and actions still line up with how they acted and the mannerisms they had in FSN. For example, Rider being overly conscious about her height is something brought up only very briefly in FSN, but it's still there. There's a reason no one's ever tried to make something similar with the F/Z cast and any attempts at something that at least tries to do something similar ends up being no where near as interesting; because they characters don't have the same level of depth and interpersonal relationships as in FSN.
>>142090478
Well given how they are the main characters of the three routes, yes
Zero just condenses characters better in it's rather short run than Stay night does in 3 routes. Stay night suffers from a lot of overexposition.
>>142090535
>Yeah, self-inserting, just as I thought.
Huh? Before I respond to the rest of your post, explain how you reached this.
>>142090553
Character study about a shit character isn't worth reading.
>>142090419
If anything, it's more a problem with marketing than anything.
F/Z was written with the assumption that you'd already played F/SN. It was, quite frankly, written to be the dark and edgy version because F/SN had established that previous wars were real shitheaps.
So theoretically F/SN should've been completely animated first, and then you go into F/Z, but instead they did it the other way around in an attempt to be chronologically accurate or something. Thus the current problem, where people watch Fate/Zero first because it's a prequel, find out that nothing else in the Fate franchise is like it, and then just leave entirely.
>>142090562
It's called reading comprehension, which based on your response to that post shows you have very little of. That or you're just shit at English.
>>142090562
>I can know how well written is a character without reading anything about it
I think you just won the most retarded argument in this thread award
>>142090634
Describe why he's shit to begin with.
>>142090612
I mean, I don't disagree with you that Zero is better paced. Not because the VN is bad in that regard, but because Urobuchi is extremely good at making his storytelling as efficient as possible. No scene is wasted with that guy.
>>142090553
But F/Z is much more than typical action shit, and you know that.
>>142090566
>any attempts at something that at least tries to do something similar ends up being no where near as interesting; because they characters don't have the same level of depth and interpersonal relationships as in FSN.
It's funny because in F/SN all the characters tie up to Shirou and Rin, whereas Zero actually ties other characters with one another
Both have glaring shortcomings though.
>>142090664
Literally not what I said, dumbass. When it's not explained what makes the villain tick until very late into the story, he is written poorly.
>>142090612
>Stay night suffers from a lot of overexposition.
True.
>>142090634
>I dont like the charcter so is a bad one
I mean anon, i really hate archer and shirou but that doesnt mean that i cant understand the writing for both.
>>142090645
Didnt they animate zero because they werent planning on doing more of stay night after the ubw movie?
>>142090782
Eh, no. The problem with shit writting never is the when is the how.
>>142090645
Well at least Fate/Zero is being watched, it's pretty good on its own.
>>142089742
First i didn't directly brought anything. Now towards some points in your rant,
>because all of the exposition you get regarding heroes is 99% Shirou's
False, see lancer, kiritsugu, archer, gilgamesh, saber, all of them talk about the matter.
>[...]it's being a fucking superhero, not a hero
Because a superhero would feel joy at the thought of thousand of people potentially dying just because he could fill his void, right? He is not a sane person.
>F/SN doesn't talk about why it's important for there to be heroes
Because dealing with the nature
of heroic ideals,"why the ideal is born" is different than "why a hero is important"? And the latter has a lot of justification in the story.
> Shirou wants to be a hero because of his backstory
Yeah, i guess that you have to experience something to develop dreams or ideals. I don't see what is wrong here.
>[...]how it made him want to be a hero.
The reasons for him to be a "hero" are there. An accident destroyed his mind and emotions, the man that saved him was overjoyed when saving him, shirou tires to mimic his actions as way of restoring himself initially and not because he feels joy in saving others( this depends on the route).
Why does he act heroically suicidal? He got PTSD, whenever someone is protecting him or is injured while protecting him he feels all the mental and physical pain caused during the fire.Read the VN
>>142089338
But he's cute!
>>142090827
Notreally. It's watchable on its own but most of its depth comes from the parallels and contrast with FSN, which is how a good prequel should be.
>>142090861
He looks like a fish
>>142090763
>It's funny because in F/SN all the characters tie up to Shirou and Rin, whereas Zero actually ties other characters with one another
Most characters in FSN are tied in to other characters in the story. Everyone linking back to Shirou and Rin doesn't mean that Zouken and Assassin, Caster and Kuzuki, and Kirei and Gil aren't linked to each other either.
Zero's flaw is that characters are pretty much only tied to one other character. Ryunosuke only ever speaks to Caster among what should be the 14 most prominent characters. At least Kojiro got a scene where he speaks with Medea, and he's only in 5 scenes in the whole story?
>>142090939
It's the personality that counts.
>>142090861
Doesn't that just make him more of a Saturday morning cartoon villain?
>All these people who clearly haven't read the VN trying to prove why Fate is objectively bad using their limited knowledge from the anime/memes.
It's nice to see that no matter what happens in the world, Fate threads will always be the same. Aren't they just the greatest?
>>142091234
Shinji did nothing wrong.
No matter how much you read into Fate, the fact remains that the writing is shit. Nasu seems to think that writing a generic eroge with SOL elements and then shoehorning a few longwinded essays about the characters in makes it somehow deep.
>>142091300
>>142089857
Thanks for proving my point fella.
>>142091234
I want a Shinji route.
dude was fucked from the moment her was born into his shit worm no inheritance family.
I just want to protest his smug smile and make him mine.
>>142093322
Sorry, but he's not gay.
>>142086328
>villain
Fuck off retard.
Ataraxia adaptation when?
>>142087925
buti still like naruto and death note
>>142095031
never ever
>>142090562
>>142095031
after Illya 9eun to unload some hype before 10ehn
>>142090420
It's not him being evil for sake of evil, it's the exact opposite. Okay, I might be mixing quite a bit of F/Z and F/HA, but it should be compatible.
He tried to be as good as possible and always aspired to, but he couldn't, because that's not what he was and he eventually accepted it and it's not that he did even tried to make evil happen in general, he was more of a morally neutral character that made the world flow around him.
He didn't try to resurrect grail-kun because grail-kun was evil, but because he wasn't. He was mechanically conditioned to such evil acts, but since he lacked the understanding and the free will, he couldn't be put as an evil character either, as he didn't have a moral compass.
That's probably why Kirei didn't try to get rid of him, becauae maybe it'd give him justification for his existance, since if he confirms his bias then he can feel like he himself isn't evil, but just a person that cannot do other than evil and it's not his fault.
Also he might've been heavily inspired by catholic doctrines of sanctity of unborn life and not stepping in the process of birth.
>>142087925
The sex between Shirou and Saber is pretty romantic and sweet though.
>>142089961
The difference between Shirou and Kirei is apparent in their fight though. Shirou may have accepted and adapted the ideal to cope with his abnormality, but he was never "empty". There was a passion there that isn't with Kirei once you got down to the very soul of the reason why he tried to cope. Shirou became abnormal after an incident, Kirei was just made to be born abnormal. Shirou can change and develop, Kirei really doesn't and the people in his life kind of fucked up recognizing his issues. Kirei was a person with abnormal brain chemistry from the outset who tried to fit in, while Shirou developed into what he was to cope with trauma.
See, Shirou isn't the direct antithesis to Kirei. They could find something in common because they coped with themselves in an unhealthy way, but Shirou says himself that Kirei doesn't have anything at the end, while he both cares about people, but also has selfish interests, meaning he wasn't an empty person, his depersonalization a semi self-inflicted act on his part. The proof of that is also shown in the Fate route, where he tries to blank out the fact that he stood outside the house that was burned down, waving to a mother that was already gone, he missed his parents, but that wasn't gelling with his new identity with the ideal. Same in UBW, where he mentally censors himself of thinking if killing Rin if she caused Caster to kill Taiga, who was her hostage. And the entire reason he went so far to save Sakura was entirely personal.
The "cage" he made for himself was all in his head.
>>142086328
I tried getting my cousin into Fate, the first thing he said was
>Why do they always create the main character to be a self insert
Because of that dialogue scene where Shirou mentions that he's ordinary and sucks at magic
>The whole "I'm not special or anything" is in every anime or manga, it's pretty fucking obviouys they're aiming for a dumb audience that's useless as fuck but dreams of having a super power
When Rin appeared
>Oh here it is, the cliche about the super beautiful girl more beautiful than everyone in school, I bet she's going to fall for his dick
Honestly I couldn't really tell him anything because it's true but I wish he had given it a shot.
>>142089672
>Playing the shitty eroge
>>142096952
>Shirou
>Self insert
You and your cousin might just be retarded
>>142096973
How the fuck is he not a self insert you piece of shit? Jesus christ you faggots are fucking retarded.
Listen dude I really like Fate but Shirou is an obvious self insert for chunni fucks. Hell Nasu is a chunni fuck and he's said so several times.
>>142096577
The ones in Hollow were better by far because they didn't try so hard and weren't made weird. They just fucked because they wanted to fuck. Sakura and Shirou's bring the most chill and realistic one.
Except for Rider's Eclipse with her blood fetish, actually, that one was weird overall.
>>142086328
Two words;Rape Worms
>>142097043
This is what always felt weird in Fate to me. I don't know why Nasu did it that way when in Tsukihime the sex scenes were good.
Like:
Arcueid and Shiki are in love = they have sex
Saber and Shirou are running away from a 2m tall crazy hero = they have a threesome to get magical semen
I really don't know why Nasu thought that was a good idea, the sex scenes are like a last moment addition where you can see he tried so hard to make them part of the story they become cringe. Well at least he fixed Fate with Realta Nua but still it just feels off
>>142097041
>Listen dude I really like Fate but Shirou is an obvious self insert for chunni fucks. Hell Nasu is a chunni fuck and he's said so several times.
Not really, Shirou is a person with actual issues, not someone you can self insert into. His story was about him coming to terms with it, no about him being into heroism like some cape wearing wannabe.
It's like that retard who said Sakura was Coldsteel, when she was also a person who had problems to get over and wasn't some edgy meme. Hell, the majority of her detractors purposefully delete entire aspects of her personality and the fact that she herself tried to fix her estrangement with her sister in her route. All to somehow fit this image that she somehow hates everyone, when that was untrue.
>>142087552
But he's got dick worms. Are you sure there aren't Sakura x Zouken doujiins? It seems ridiculous
>>142097273
Fuck off faggot Shirou is a self insert stop trying to deny it.
>Not really, Shirou is a person with actual issues, not someone you can self insert into.
That changes nothing, self insert doesn't mean gary stu
>His story was about him coming to terms with it, no about him being into heroism like some cape wearing wannabe.
And that has nothing to do with him being a self insert or not. Fuck off
Nasu:
>In terms of the main topic, I hope people will feel like they have just watched a great movie after playing the game. Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios, where the players should feel they have played a very fun game. Mahoutsukai no Yoru is played in the third person, the players can't project themselves onto any characters. They can't place their feelings on top of a character, but instead feel happy being in the position where they can over see the complicated story between the three main characters. To be happy not only about a particular character, but about the world view, this is how I intend it to be.
>>142097273
Do you know what self-insert means? Why are you so upset over the fact that Shirou, who is an obvious self insert gets called that?
What you described in your first line doesn't exclude him from being a self insert.
Do you think that self insert means super character that has no issues and that always is correct or some shit? It's not about that faggot.
>>142097273
>Shirou is not a self insert because he has some problems
>Let's not talk about his chunni powers and the fact that he fucks all the hot chicks
>Let's not talk about how the game is literally "choose your own story" depending on the choices YOU make
Really m8.
>>142097280
This us a universe where the magi accept that their children will be taken by the big bad Association to be used for experiments for having no crests and being too powerful. Instead of being what real parents would do and beating that ass of some crazies trying to put your kid in formaldehyde.
This is a universe where you have an organization of Demon Hunters that completely fuck over their children with all types of crazy shit.
And you think a guy who uses insects and worms as familiars and experiments on a little girl is somehow too weird? Look around, it's lunacy everywhere in the Nasuverse, and if you have supernatural potential, your chances of being fucked over doesn't diminish, it skyrockets.
>>142086328
That's what becoming waifu-fag do to you. It's similar with Roa who in his prime was Nasuverse Aizen but in Tsukihime he was just crazy hobo.
>>142097487
Objectively outside his issues, Shirou gets women because let's face it, he could be a really good catch. Dude is a greasemonkey that can cook like a champ, has his own house and his own income, chicks would be on his dick. Outside his issues of course, but since when has having issues meant a guy didn't get play?
The choices in the story are based on what he would do, so it's less choose your own adventure and more you just playing literally as Shirou.
I would say you assume the role instead of self inserting. People don't usually self insert into sociopaths, so self inserting to Shirou isn't possible unless you got issues bro.
>>142089338
Team Kuuru was one of the best parts of Zero, though.
>>142097834
>he could be a really good catch
A subservient faggot with a martyr complex is a good catch? He's definitely not a self insert, but he only pulls that much tail because he has the eroge protagonist magic.
>>142086328
you're supposed to self insert
>>142097326
>>142097380
All this means is that there is literally no meaning to being a "self insert". If a character like Shirou, who has more personality and complexity than 99% of fictional characters ever with several character arcs across multiple universes can be described as one the term exists for no fucking reason.
As far as I and most people are concerned, a self insert is a blank slate with no flaws.
And stop posting Nasu quotes as if they mean anything, it's been well established that he hates and/or has poor memory of almost everything he wrote over a decade ago.
>>142097487
Yeah man, Shinji from Eva is a self insert too because he's surrounded by hot chicks. Great point. His mental trauma that the entire novel is about is invalidated because he has girls around him.
All fates are shit except for zero and strange fake.
>>142097834
Let's face it, shirou gets women because of the BAR.
>>142087266
>his goal is to achieve something readers can't relate to or even understand
>he's best character because he forgot what he wanted
Your analysis sucks, dude.
>>142098370
>subservient
He likes helping people and thinks it's his duty to do so but no. He is stubborn as fuck and pretty sarcastic when you review his internal thoughts.
Why do you think Nasu wrote Archer as he did?
>>142099647
Only one was gotten that way, and Rin filed away the crush for years until they got in a war together. Sakura fell in love with him after getting to know him during her spy mission.
>>142089742
why are you only talking about Shirou´s point of view of being a hero? Also we both know that Shirou´s mind tends to make silly excuses to justify Shirou´s behavior at first glace. Or did everyone forget the good´ol Emiya "go back to the kitchen" Shirou
>>142096230
Holy shit. I'm just like Kirei.
>>142087552
ANY STORY WITH GRAPHIC SEX IS BAD!
Just how many hundreds or thousands of novels would you have to just outright hate?
>>142097487
>>142097326
>>142097380
>ITT: people who don't know the definition of self-insert protagonist
>>142086328
Got to admire his tenacity.
>Guy gets away with Rape, Murder and who knows what else in Fate and UBW.
What the fuck Nasu?
>>142089015
>clinging
He's the one approving the trillions of animes and mangas you fuk. Money is obviously far more important.
>>142100909
Gil kills him in Fate and UBW.
Nasu in the latest TM Ace interview said that the FGO protagonist was astand-in for the player(a literal self-insert) and that this was contrasted with his other MCs who weren't, like Shiki and Shirou. The main difference is how involved in the plot the character is.
Shiki and Shirou are central to the plot, you can't replace them. This is not what self-inserts characters are like.
Fate is at its best when it's not made by Nasu.
>>142101203
Last I checked, CCC was written by Nasu.
>>142086328
I swear i'll get around to playing the VN at some point, skimming these threads remind me that secondaries need to be shot.
>>142088889
>the author must not like his older work because I said so
>>142089015
>writing something else after you've finished something is "thinking your work is shit and distancing yourself from it"
>>142089067
>the writing is shitty even though I don't speak the language it was written in
the level of projection and idiocy here is astounding
>>142101476
>it's the translation's fault!!
fuck off shitter
>>142098797
>If a character like Shirou, who has more personality and complexity than 99% of fictional characters
You just went full retard, congrats.
>>142100675
>He's a self insert
>no he's not xDDDD
>Except he is, look the author himself says so
>No he's not ahaha
Kill yourself
>>In terms of the main topic, I hope people will feel like they have just watched a great movie after playing the game. Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios, where the players should feel they have played a very fun game. Mahoutsukai no Yoru is played in the third person, the players can't project themselves onto any characters. They can't place their feelings on top of a character, but instead feel happy being in the position where they can over see the complicated story between the three main characters. To be happy not only about a particular character, but about the world view, this is how I intend it to be.
>>142098797
>As far as I and most people are concerned, a self insert is a blank slate with no flaws.
Except that's not what a self insert is you fucking retard.
Tatsuya Shiba has no flaws and he's most definetely not a self insert.
This is why nobody takes retarded fatefags seriously, you liking a character or not doesn't mean that he's a self insert or not, a character being good or bad has nothing to do with being a self insert. Fuck off
>>142102380
>Q : Speaking of the Fate/ feel, most of your previous works have protagonists with special powers, which result in them being given important roles in the story. On the other hand, up until now we still don’t know who or what exactly FGO’s protagonist is. Will this be touched upon in the story later on?
>N : No. Everyone seems to think that the protagonist might be Character XX, but we decided that, as a mobile game, the protagonist would be the players themselves, a person who had been living a normal life up until now. We avoided turning the protagonist into “someone who actually had this backstory behind them.” I want everyone to think of FGO’s protagonist as someone who just happened to see a recruitment flyer at a station, applied and got accepted into the job, and somehow ended up getting taken into Chaldea. I wish I could live a life like that too.
I'll write a some after this but I'm running out of charaters for the post.
>>142102552
In your quote Nasu is describing the difference between how FSN and Tsukihime are written comparatively to Mahoyo. In Mahoyo you jump between Soujuurou and Aoko often enough that neither can really claim it's their story first. In FSN and Tsukihime the story is told through the perspective of mainly a single character. What he's describing is empathizing with the MC.
>>142102552
>>142102629
What you said doesn't mean a thing though, he's not denying that Shirou is a self insert in there, he just said that Gudao/ko is a self insert too
He's very clear here
>>In terms of the main topic, I hope people will feel like they have just watched a great movie after playing the game. Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios, where the players should feel they have played a very fun game. Mahoutsukai no Yoru is played in the third person, the players can't project themselves onto any characters. They can't place their feelings on top of a character, but instead feel happy being in the position where they can over see the complicated story between the three main characters. To be happy not only about a particular character, but about the world view, this is how I intend it to be.
Shirou is a self insert as the author says, i'm fucking sorry if you're upset about it for some bizarre reason but he IS a self insert.
I don't understand why you faggots keep jumping to defend it as if saying a character is a self insert changes anything, fuck off.
>>142102777
No he specifically says, seeing the adventure through the eyes of Shirou and Shiki. These are established characters. With Gudao/ko he is saying that the protagonist is just the player. His first point is about how Tsukihime and FSN are told through the perspective of an MC unlike Mahoyo or Fate Zero. This would be a lot more apparent to you if you had read Mahoyo, what he's talking about is clear as day to me.
>>142086328
I thought it was the guy from that gangrape ova.
>>142102848
>These are established characters
Established self-insert characters.
>>142104904
Self-insert characters don't have that much personality and backstory. A better example of a self-insert character in a Fate setting would be Hakuno who has little to no personality and is revealed to be a non-person based on a random human from the past(this is almost explicitly "the player"). Self-insert characters are not as common as some people on /a/ would have you think.
>>142105100
>Self-insert characters don't have that much personality and backstory.
Like Shiki and Shirou.
>>142105253
Their personality and backstory are central to the plot in both cases. Contrast this with Hakuno and Gudao/ko where it doesn't matter.
>>142105330
>Contrast this with Hakuno and Gudao/ko where it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter with Shiki and Shirou either.
>>142105100
This.
It seems the other anon didn't read enough VNs. A typical self-insert character usually goes "haa?" or "e?" on everything that's happening around him, Shirou has an opinion on most of the things and quickly expresses it. Fate gives us an impression we are controlling him, but most of the choices just fall into what he would've done and not the player. And sometimes the choice system is used to mark an important decision in Shirou's head ("Take Illya back" in HF, or "Get up" in Saber route) and is not used as an extension of player's will.
He has a personality.
>>142105388
Without Shirou's backstory regarding Avalon. He doesn't summon Saber, Archer CG or his projection magic don't exist. He never never wants to become a hero of justice, he never becomes introduced to magic,. Shirou's backstory is literally the backbone of the whole VN.
>>142105412
>Fate gives us an impression we are controlling him, but most of the choices just fall into what he would've done and not the player.
He's still just a tool for inserting the player into the story.
>>142105503
And his backstory is just the necessary excuse to make the plot revolve around the player.
>>142105593
You can say this about any game then. By your definition of what a self-insert is it's so ubiquitous that it's a useless term. The fact is that if you placed Shirou in a random story we could more or less deduce what choices he would make. You cannot do that with Hakuno or Gudako.
>>142105718
>The fact is that if you placed Shirou in a random story we could more or less deduce what choices he would make.
He would make the choices the player chooses to make for him.
The fact that someone's trying this hard to shitpost about it means it must be at least worth a read
>>142105791
Are you pretending to be retarded?
>>142086328
You are not supposed to take anything in FSN seriously
>>142105822
I'm simply stating the truth. No need to be so defensive about your little self-insert characters.
>>142105894
How am I defensive?
>>142095031
After the Tsukihime remake gets an anime remake.
>>142105388
>muh heroism
>>142105894
>Every single videogame/vn MC, or any MC that has a semblance of a relatable background is a self-insert
Yeah, "truth". At least try to understand what buzzwords you are using
>>142106277
>Every single videogame/vn MC, or any MC that has a semblance of a relatable background is a self-insert
They are. All of those exist only so that the player can insert himself into the story. That's their one and only function.
>>142106797
Have you ever considered that you could be wrong? That you're not meant to self-insert into these characters and simply empathize with them?
>>142106797
Okay. And you simply exist for the society to make use out of you and then die. You can speed up this process. Just go and kill yourself.
>>142106934
>Have you ever considered that you could be wrong?
I am not wrong. I am right.
>you're not meant to self-insert into these characters and simply empathize with them?
They exist only so that the player has a way of inserting himself into the story.
>>142106962
Go be edgy somewhere else.
>>142107056
>this is what /a/ considers edgy
This board has really been overrun by MAL and tumblr. Shit.
>>142107056
Go be wrong somewhere else. I've explained it to you in many ways and every time you just dismiss it and repeat yourself. You're not interested in having a discussion.
>>142106797
Congratulations. You surpassed>>142090664 as the most retarded post in the thread
>>142107132
Fuck. Meant>>142090562
>>142107104
>Go be wrong somewhere else.
I've already told you that I am right and you are wrong.
>>142107200
Is this guy actually retarded? This is like talking to a person with an actual mental illness.
>>142107200
If you were right you would've known what's happening on this pic and how related it is to Shirou's character. You don't even know what it is, right? Go back to MAL.
>>142107281
Well, that would explain how he can self-insert into Shirou
