Who was right?
>>141042364
The barrel.
Neither, all of them were stupid.
A true leader needs to manifest gratitude and trust in his followers potential.
Rider was canonically right.
>>141042364
i'd rather follow saber but be like rider
so the answer is some of both
>>141042364
Plenty of ways to skin a cat
Ideally, you'd want a king that's willing to lead his people, both parties subsequently serving each other to prosperity. Rider was the closest to this.
I forget Saber's standpoint since I keep replacing her past with other Arthurian lore in my head since she's downplayed as fuck and Gil just has the power to do whatever the fuck he wants so it's okay.
>>141042364
Neither. Rider was only right about her being wrong to regret her kingship but wrong about everything else.
>>141042364
Truly a great scene. Works as much as a standalone as within the series.
>>141042407
>pic related
>>141042435
So, something close to Rider, right?
Best girl is never wrong
Gilgamesh and rider had some points right about Sabers nature.
>>141042789
She is an idiot.
>>141042789
yes,but I guess you posed the wrong pic
>>141042789
Waifufags don't need to speak. Saber is a stupid cunt.
>>141042364
Saber was canonically wrong.
Saber had the right idea but the wrong attitude.
Rider had the wrong idea but the right attitude.
>>141042364
''Soldiers win wars. History remembers kings''
>>141042824
>>141042868
>fucking secondaries
am i the only one who agrees with saber? rider was selfish af. saber was willing to sacrifice anything for her people
>>141042364
Saber
>>141043070
A king must in-body the most extreme of all things, good and evil. You wouldn't envy a king who wasn't greedy.
>>141043070
Saber was canonically right, read the VN. Gil and Rider's methods were pretty much the same. Retards like>>141043147 will disagree because
>muh bro can't be wrong
>>141043070
Saber's kingship was correct and her people loved her. Two selfish pricks trying to denounce her means nothing.
>>141043221
>read the VN
Fuck off to /jp/.
>>141042364
There isn't a definite winner, but Saber is a loser, simply because she regrets being king and wants to reverse history so she was never king, which Rider points out is disgraceful and a mockery on all her allies and foes she came across in her era.
>>141043221
>muh bro
was he even that much of a bro? considering he left Waver to the whims of Gilgamesh- who decides to execute commoners if they pronounce the correct words wrongly
>>141043293
Fuck off out of /a/.
>>141043221
She wants to save her people, not lead them. She's a hero, not a king.
>>141043320
>I don't need to leave, YOU need to leave!
>>141043408
Read the VN.
A king must be strong, a king must have an iron grip. But most of all, if you are to call yourself a king, you must not repudiate your acts. The kings that are the most revered in History aren't those who displayed weakness. Those usually suffered from their enemies as well as from their own people. The most famous kings are those who displays strength, those who led their people, those who chose to take full advantage of their status to engrave their name in history. By using strength. Not cruelty, but strength and power. They lived their lives, accomplished great things and left their mark in History. Saber goes against all of this in Fate/Zero.
>>141043444
The reason why I get mad when people say to read the VN is that people shouldn't HAVE to read the source material to understand an adaptation. The anime and its events should stand on its own.
If a person needs to read the VN to appreciate the anime, that just means the anime is a shit adaptation.
>>141043555
It doesn't matter how much fluff you add, but a tyrant isn't a good king. They are probably famous, but they are not good kings.
>>141043636
>the anime is a shit adaptation.
So every adaptation ever?
>>141043665
Nice hot opinion.
>>141043737
>Rider admits to being a tyrant
>L-like I care! I would love to be oppressed!
>>141043555
>going by only by what Iskander claimed a king to be
muh bro
Saber was wrong. If she wasn't wrong then her wish wouldn't have been a thing.
>>141042364
Saber had the right ideal but ultimately Gilgamesh was right.
You're supposed to act on your decision and be satisfied with it, regardless of what it may be.
>>141042364
Rider
Saber
Archer
But mordred will always be my king
>>141042949
英語で読んだのなら、セコンダリさんはお前だ！！
>>141043221
In the VN she gave up on it
>>141043296
>Saber is a loser
This, she and Kiritsugu are perfect for each other.
Saber was right in how she was king, but was wrong in her regret. Her rule was a small time of peace, justice, and chivalry in an otherwise tumultuous time. She did everything she could, and there could've been no greater king than her.
>>141044026
That doesn't address the question. Everyone who knows about it agrees that her wish was wrong, even she does eventually. We're discussing their kingship methods, in which Saber far surpassed the 2 cunts who only cared about their own egos.
I watched F/SN after F/Z and it demolished my interest in the franchise, but I've got one question: Why is Arthur a girl?
>>141044131
Because she needs to take a cock up her cunt for mana, m8
>>141044131
Why not?
>>141043636
In this case Saber was OOC throughout Zero. Urobutchi admits he didn't know how to write her. Wouldn't be so bad if she didn't also have excessive screentime.
>>141044111
Saber didn't have the required skills as a proper king to actually lead her country.
She could have actually did more if she was a bit more selfish.
Rider basically ignored his kingdom and people in order to run off and conquer more land. Gilgamesh only viewed his kingdom as his own personal toybox, and the people only had as much value as they were able to keep him interested.
As a king, Saber was a failure. A king always has to put themself ahead of the kingdom. Ultimately a king is more important than the kingdom. A kingdom without a king is no kingdom. But a king without a kingdom, even one exiled to the ends of the world, is still a king.
Saber failed as a king because she valued her kingdom over herself. But as a leader, she had the correct idea. Unfortunately her kingdom failed because she only understood humans in the abstract and couldn't understand the hearts of the actual people near her.
Living under Iskander would mean a life of constant warfare. One under Gilgamesh would be hellish as his whims would determine your fate from one day to the next. Life under Saber would be great as she would bend her kingdom to serving the citizenry.
In short, Gilgamesh had the correct idea for what a king should be. Iskander had the right idea for what a military general should be. Saber had the right idea for what a leader should be.
Faggot Servants should have acted in their own rational self-interest like Gilgamesh. Saber and Rider are living for other people--either to sacrifice themselves for them (Saber) or to serve as an icon of greatness for others--when they should live for themselves. Why should they be concerned about other people's happiness?
>>141044482
>Why should they be concerned about other people's happiness?
Shinji, not now. Real people are talking.
>>141043665
>>141043814
It's not a matter of looking at the thing from the perspective of the people. If you are a king, then you are to stand above all else, as the definition says. Rider still led his armies to victory, and kept his nation strong. He was revered by his people. Though unjust he might have been, he was still held in high regards because he embodied strength, he embodied willpower. A king isn't necessarily a respectable person from an ethical point of view, kings have never been regarded as humanists (as a matter of fact, humanism didn't exist until the 18th century or so). Kings are regarded as such because they are extreme. THAT is what a king is. During Ancient history and the Dark Ages, the richest part of a kingdom was composed of roughly 2% of its inhabitants: nobles & clerics. Then came those who had a rather good job and had good living standards (I'd say, perhaps 5%) and the rest was the commoners, the plebians, the misery. Kings were what they were because they had everything, and had no reason to regret it.
>>141044517
>Shinji hater
Fuck off secondary.
>>141042364
What is the Barrel king of? I'm slightly curious.
>>141044517
Fuck off. Maybe you should quit attacking me and explain why living for one's self-interest is dumb.
>>141044644
Cheap wine
>>141044605
This isn't Fate/Extra. You can't continue to be a shit your entire life, Shinji.
Maybe if you were given a route, you'd be better off.
>>141044670
>explain why living for one's self-interest is dumb.
Not all self-interest is good for the world. Unless you think stealing is fine.
>>141044701
Shinji...I don't get why he gets all the hate on /a/. FSN is just written to make him out as the bad guy, when really he's no worse than any of the 'protagonists' and a better person than most of them.
What are the main complaints? He raped Sakura and stole Rider to use in the war?
Okay, let's get this straight. He never fucking raped Sakura. He never did it. He never did it. He never did it. He never did it. He fucked Sakura.
Let me ask you this. WHO IN THE GAME DIDN'T FUCK SAKURA? You can't even name one fucking character who hasn't plugged her loose cunt! She is the kind of bitch who will act like she doesn't want it when she really does. She'll say No! while having multiple orgasms. Shinji knew this, he's a fucking ladies man. He knows what filthy whores like Sakura want.
And there's this other big bitch you guys have with him. He supposedly stole Rider and used her in the war for his own greed.
Objection! He was worried about his one and only precious sister. Is keeping your loved ones from a brutal war so wrong? When Shirou does the same thing to Saber it's like 'oh he's so manly', but when Shinji does it it's wrong? He just wanted to protect Sakura. He probably was going to use his Holy Grail wish to tighten her cunt back up or cure her syphilis or something.
The story was written to make that faggot Shirou look good. Objectively, Shinji is a far better character than Shirou. At least he has the balls to take action decisively instead of dicking around like Shirou, and if he weren't stuck with the weak ass servant Rider and no plothax he probably would have won the war.
>>141043636
>that just means the anime is a shit adaptation.
That goes without saying.
>>141044524
>It's not a matter of looking at the thing from the perspective of the people
Do you realize how stupid you sound.
>>141044747
They each embody correctness but none of them were completely right. Saber is right about sacrifice, Gil about loyalty, and Rider about courage. Combined, you would have a king that expects the best of you, but genuinely respects you and would lay down their life just the same as you would for them. A good leader must not only want to lead, but others must want to be lead by them.
>>141043070
Saber was disgusting leftist cuckold piece of shit. No wonder her own people turned on her.
Worthless commie bitch.
>>141042364
Saber is selfless, Rider is selfish and Gil is a maniac.
I do admit that Rider is bro tier, but I wouldn't want him to be my king, I'd end up dead looking for something stupid like an endless sea.
Gilgamesh doesn't really say anything beyond 'suck my balls because I'm Gilgamesh'.
>>141044960
But anon, don't you want to explorethe spacewith Rider and bros?
>>141044850
"History" proves me right, my good man. Iskandar was revered by his people and died a good death with no regrets. Sure, his kingdom fell apart after he died but why should he care? That's no longer his problem what idiots do with the heirloom he leaves behind.
Saber was betrayed by the people around her, died a tragic death with regrets, an unfulfilled purposes, left behind a mortal enemy that almost made her lose the 4th Holy Grail War and had for a wish to erase herself from existence, to have someone else inherit the throne in her stead. And the kingdom she so much cared for fell apart anyway after she died.
Tell me which one got the better end? Which one has the path that is more worthy of someone of power? Which person is the more respectable? It doesn't matter if Iskandar was a tyrant, Saber caused the death of many people as well.
>>141045102
As simplistic as it is, sometimes that's what makes a powerful king. Gilgamesh was literally the baddest motherfucker in the world and he had the strength to back it up.
>>141042789
>Kills 'wife' when knowing full well one of your most powerful retainers loves her
>Just tells Mordred to fuck off, not attempt in any way to have her not be Morgan's tool
>Goes on multiple fools errands
Saber a dumb
>>141045102
Even Gil was better then Rider.
>Rider
>doesn't give a single shit about his people
>goes around conquering and killing to satisfying his own ego
>Gil
>doesn't go around conquering since he believes everything is already his
>doesn't kill without good reason as he believes ever person has worth
>just fucks around with Enkidu
>at worst he'll show up to your house and you'll have to let him fuck your virgin daughter
>>141045262
None of that has anything to do with what I said. You said the perspective of the people did not matter, but then who determines if a king is doing a good job or not?
>>141045102
That's literally his entire character described in a single sentence.
>>141044747
>Okay, let's get this straight. He never fucking raped Sakura. He never did it. He never did it. He never did it. He never did it. He fucked Sakura.
This is the part when you dismiss the entire post.
>Teekyuu
RIP AND TEAR or going full slaneesh on highschool girls
Hmm
>>141045463
>replying seriously to age old pasta
This is the part when we dismiss your entire existence.
>>141045359
It appears I might have poorly chosen my words, indeed. What I meant was that by "perspective", I meant that people shouldn't judge a king on the basis of how much said kings caters to their own personal needs. That is not the purpose of a king. The king is the one that stands on top, the one that acts as the figurehead, the one that embodies the kingdom as a whole. If the king started caring about people's needs, he would no longer be a king but a slave like Saber. And Iskandar wasn't disliked by his people as you can see.
>>141045293
>gil
> believes ever person has worth
>doesn't kill without good reason
The fuck am I reading?
>>141045561
Ok then who judges the quality of the king? You can't say the king himself because then there would never be any bad kings.
>and Iskandar wasn't disliked by his people as you can see.
If by his people you mean his army, you are right, but in Fate it is never specified if his civilian people liked him and it's safe to assume they didn't because she didn't give a shit about them.
>>141044430
>But a king without a kingdom, even one exiled to the ends of the world, is still a king.
you fucked up, that's not how it works
>>141045584
>The fuck am I reading?
Clearly not the VN. The reason he tried to commit genocide in UBW was because he believed the people of the current time had no worth. Because there were less people in his time he believed the all had worth and he didn't kill anyone needlessly.
>>141044747
Shinji is the real hero.
>>141042364
Gil of course.
>>141045584
It's true tough.
He was corrupted by the grail and he believed people in modern times had no value because there were too many of them and few of them had really any redeeming quality.
In the past there were fewer humans and he did say he did value their lives, to a certain degree.
What were their arguments? I don't remember.
>>141044872
Why would Fate Extra Shinji be defending Stay Night Shinji, anon?
>>141045293
>Delusional Gilfag
Gil doesn't give a fuck to normal people like you and me, he'd probably kill 2/3 of the world population to satisfy his autism.
>>141043273
Don't tell you wouldn't bully her given the chance. Seeing her face trying to contain the suffering while you remind her of her failures would be most pleasurable.
>>141045711
>all have worth
>therefore he thinks they mostly have no worth
>therefore he doesn't kill needlessly
>by killing everyone for no raisin
>because he thinks they have no worse
Oh, you're just retarded. Got it.
>>141044872
I really need to play /Extra, but the battle system numbs my mind.
>>141045805
This. The only reason he doesn't go out of his way to kill people is that he sees them as less than bugs, not worth the effort.
>>141045820
I'll try simplifying it more for your secondary mind
>Gil's time
>less people
>thinks everyone has worth
>doesn't kill needlessly
>fast forward thousands of years
>modern age
>too many people, most are worthless
>kill the worthless to start over
>>141045820
You did not read the VN.
He wants to kill the weaklings and rule over the strong.
People has no value now because there are too many and they are mostly useless.
In ancient times there were fewer and were "rarer"
>>141042840
Diamonds
>>141045945
>>141045951
>Somehow a mass murderer is better than Rider
Dumb Gilfag.
>>141045945
>tertiary scum calling primaries "secondaries"
Kek.
Neo-/a/ in a nutshell.
>>141046030
>Rider wasn't a murderer
>>141045834
How am I wrong? Do you think Gil would let anyone in this thread alive?
>>141046059
Correct, he was merely a conqueror.
>>141046030
Did I say he was better than rider?
>>141046030
>implying Gil isn't justified in wanting to wipe out 99% of humanity
Remove subhumans
>>141046036
>Neo-/a/
>>>/v/
>>141046060
No, we are all worthless so he'd kill us. But what he would do now has nothing to do with how he handled his kingship when he was alive.
>>141046030
>muh feelings
>>141046078
One that killed far more than Gilgamesh during his lifetime.
>>141045660
>who judges the quality of the king?
History.
>>141046189
So?
>>141046193
And arthur was regarded as a great king just as iskander?
Than what differentiates the two?
Your logic is faulty and loopy not to mention the fact that you keep misusing the word history when theres historical accounts for both iskander being a horrible king and a good king.
tl;dr you're a retard
>>141046193
So Saber was better? Now you say history but before you only talked about Saber's own feeling towards her kingship to justify your opinion.
>>141046243
Ask yourself. >>141046030
>>141046243
Being a mass murderer and a conqueror are not mutually exclusive.
Learn to understand that rider can still be a bro even if hes a mass murderer.
>>141046308
>>141046313
Dumb gilfags
>>141044131
If you're looking for an actual answer. Arthur was a boy originally with the protagonist being a girl. When Nasu decided he wanted to make the main character a boy in order to better serve as a self insert for the audience he changed Arthur's gender so that he could keep the romance subplot.
>>141046360
>it's okay when muh bro does it!
>>141045795
Extra Shinji is a test tube baby using Shinji's DNA
>>141046360
>i have no argument so I'm going to call them xfags
ebic
>>141046364
Thank god, this looks terrible.
>>141046391
>>141046426
Tertiary scum
>>141046469
t. secondary
>>141046469
So what is a tertiary now?
>>141046469
>Proving his point
Anon pls. You're making the gilfags look intelligent with your retardation.
>>141046121
You are right, my bad. I thought we were arguing which one would be a better king now.
>>141042364
shiro
because he could fuck every girls
They're all right in their own way, ideally a king should embody aspects of all of them. Saber embodies compassion and a deep caring for her people and country, Iskandar embodies a king who is able to lead and inspire his people and Gilgamesh embodies a king who must always be certain of their actions and never regretting them even if they've made the wrong choice.
>>141043975
残念、俺は日本語わかるよー
プロジェクチンッグがやめて下さい、本物のせコンダリくん
>>141046437
They did a mockup of Fate/Prototype a few years back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaeA_xjMR_w
>>141046595
僕もに日本語で読んだの
僕は外人ですけど。
在る意味ではせコンダリです。
>>141046030
Gil is chaotic good unlike rider
>>141046739
Gil is lawful evil.
>>141046577
>Iskandar embodies a king who is able to lead and inspire his people and Gilgamesh embodies a king who must always be certain of their actions and never regretting them even if they've made the wrong choice.
There wasn't really that distinction made between Gil and Rider.
>>141046595
>>141046656
>TL note: secondari means niwaka
>>141046752
>>141042364
My king. She's the only one who isn't shit.
>>141046816
Niwaka and Secondary aren't the same thing.
>>141046739
>>141046752
Gil is chaotic neutral bordering on evil you faggots.
He obviously answers to no other authority than himself, is extremely whimsical and places his own self above everything else. That's textbook CN/CE.
>>141042364
In regards to being a good "king"? I would give that honor to Gil.
Rider was more of a general then anything.
Saber was a leader but not a "king", she was the ideal modern leader, a devoted civil servant.
>>141046816
>せコンダリ
（１）物事の急に起こるさま。
（２）かりそめであるさま。臨時的。一時的。
（３）病気が急変するさま。
Sounds like a speed-reader
>>141046884
>>141046752
You guys are joking, right?
>>141046193
Possibly the most retarded thing I've read in my entire life, and you were trying so hard to sound clever, too.
>>141046927
How the fuck is Gil anything else than chaotic neutral or evil? Please explain.
>>141046884
tl;dr gil is ubermensch
>>141045477
>encouraging Heresy
Why?
>>141046949
Before I answer, tell me how new you are?
>>141046958
Pretty much. CN is the best alignment.
>>141042364
So, if you're really stupid, you will mostly follow rider, I mean, he's a great bro and all, but in the long run he was the worst option. Saber, on the other hand, was a little better.
None of them suits what I think a king must be, tho.
>>141046874
You don't say secondary in japanese. Going by yaraon and nichanneru, saying niwaka in this kind of context is just fine.
>>141046985
>do I fit in yet?
Get the fuck out.
>>141046884
>places his own self above everything else
pretty much common thing for all humans. Also the opposite doesnt make someone good.
>answers to no other authority than himself
He is a king and pretty much above others so why should he?
>extremely whimsical
Im too but aint evil.
Gil is viewed as good because he will always help you if you become his subject. He only was a dick during HGW because it was an battle royale and almost everyone opposed him.
Kirei is an prime example of this. He becomes Gils subject and he helps him with his problems. He doesnt judge or fuck him over even if hes evil because he is loyal towards those who submit.
If he was evil then he would have needlessly killed Waver
>>141047033
Here you go newfag.
>inb4 I was only pretending hahah thanks for the replies!
>>141047054
>Im too but aint evil.
You don't know how alignments work. Whimsical is a defining trait of chaotic alignments, especially chaotic neutral.
>>141047091
It's well established that Nasu doesn't know jack shit about alignments. I'll say it again, get the fuck out.
Solomon is lawful good, right? Fucking retard
>>141047054
>kirei becomes gil's subject
i don't think so anon, he's not tokiomi
>>141047139
>trust me, I know more than Nasu
Kill yourself newfag
>Solomon is lawful good, right?
Yeah, he is.
>>141047054
Ow the wicked sense of humor
>>141047094
> Whimsical is a defining trait of chaotic alignments, especially chaotic neutral.
Thats why he is chaotic good and not lawful good anon
>>141047182
>being that fucking autistic
Stop choking on Nasu's fat cock and think for yourself.
>Yeah, he is.
wew lad
>>141046595
>がやめて下さい
>>141047240
>so stupid he doesn't realize the alignments are based on when the heroes were actually alive and not servants
>>141047302
I know, and that's even more retarded since TM focuses on servants, not on the mythology.
>>141047348
Not at all. It's not like the alignments play any role in he story, so what's the problem with basing them off the mythology.
>>141047182
I'm not the guy you're responding to but there's literally nothing wrong with claiming that an author is wrong if they're making statements about shit they aren't a source of authority on. This alignment system predates and exists independently of Nasu, so if he states that a character who is clearly not good in the traditional d&n sense then he can be wrong. On the other hand if Nasu says that Shirou likes wearing pink panties and masturbating to big fat futa mare cocks we just have to accept this as word of god.
>>141047401
Why include them in the first place if they're not used for anything? At least make them relevant to the servant's current personality.
>>141046844
>>141046884
He respects laws and hierarchy (even if he is the law) and doesn't care for human life except under certain circumstances. He's very clearly LE.
>>141047443
Ask Nasu.
>>141043814
>implying he used the english word for tyrant
>implying he didn't say the japanese word that has different connotations
>>141047464
>hierarchy
"hierarchy" in his eyes is him = Enkidu >>>>>>>>> every single other living being on the planet.
>>141047485
>pretending to know Jap just to defend your bro
Please stop commenting in Japanese. All your Japanese are awkward as fuck
t. Japanese
>>141047464
>character clearly doesn't give a fuck about society's opinions about anything but let me just quickly redifine law to make him lawful
This believing he's the law nonsense has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in this thread and it's already an impressively dumb thread.
>>141047509
>pretending to pretending to know japanese
Gilgamesh
>Helps people who ask for it
>Is a loyal for his subjects
>Doesnt kill people needlessly
>Whimsical
>Honorable
Why shouldnt he be chaotic good? Seems pretty good to me
>>141047464
LE requires going out of your way to do evil deeds (without contradiction to your laws). He's LN.
>>141042364
>Correct and right tier
Rider
>Correct but not right tier
Gilgamesh
Saber Alter
>Not living their life correctly tier
Saber
>>141047517
just as soon as your worthless japanese voice actors stop saying random words in engrish, slit-eyes
>>141047547
You forgot to add a "not" in front of every line.
>>141047517
Your English isn't that good either, y'know.
>>141047588
How desperate can aniti-Gilfags get?
>>141047517
何言うかこの電波（っっっw。
実は外人だも（っっっっw。
>>141047588
How so?
He spared Shirou multiple times even when he went against him. Same goes for Waver kun.
He was loyal towards Kirei and would have given the grail to Rider if he wasnt so prideful.
He honorable in combat as shown in F/Z and whimsical needs no explanation
>>141047688
Don't reply to him.
>>141047547
Honestly though, Gil wasn't that bad in F/Z. Sure, he was a dick, but he did spare Waver and had a noble battle with Rider. I don't think he is chaotic good, but he is certainly not evil.
>>141045945
Eh he's just setting fire to everything and assuming the "best" will rise up.
Realistically he would get a bunch of CEOs and government officials who have helicopters and whatnot. He's not going to get the best blacksmith, craftsman, etc. so his logic is extremely flawed.
It'd just be a bunch of assholes with money that's now worthless arguing over who the boss is.
>>141047688
>He spared Shirou multiple times even when he went against him
Because he considered shirou to be just an insect and he lost interest in him.
>He was loyal towards Kirei
>would have given the grail to Rider if he wasnt so prideful.
HAAAAhahahahahahaHAHHAHAHAHahahhahahaha
Fucking secondaries, mang!
>He honorable in combat as shown in F/Z
Toppest of the kek apex, m8!
>>141047688
>Gilgamesh
>giving anything to anyone but his dick to womenand Enkidu
>>141047688
He's whimsical so sometimes he does things that put him at a disadvantage such as helping enemies or being honorable but because he's not consistently acting like that he can't be called good. You might not call him evil because you're a biased fanboy but anyone that's liable to murder children for a cause he doesn't really give a fuck about is evil.
>>141047849
Consistency -> lawfulness.
Outcome -> goodness.
Retard.
>>141044524
I understand and applaud what Urobuchi wanted to do, in creating a multi-sided philosophical conflict, but Rider's argument always came off a little weak.
It's hard to morally justify wanton pillage and plunder.
>>141047849
What he does in FSN has nothing to do with his alignment.
>>141047895
The outcome of his action are more evil than good, but don't let logic blind you from the truth of Gil's golden cock, retarded fanboy.
>>141047750
>Because he considered shirou to be just an insect and he lost interest in him.
I.e. Nasu is a shitty writer.
Gil and Saber are both pretty much distinct, unrelated characters in Zero, and in UBW.
RIDER IS MY KING.
FUCK GIL.
FUCK SABER.
>>141047955
Why not?
>>141048026
>Raised an army that invaded foreign countries, indiscriminately killed women and children, just because he was bored
>Yet he was concerned with Saber's wellbeing and personal situation
Just hard to make him work as a character. You can't look too closely at it.
>>141048089
Because their alignments are based on when they were alive.
>>141047924
A stable society requires the presence of a powerful authority. In pre-modern society, that authority was the absolute ruler, and the most effective way to prove your power was through force of arms.
For example, most people think of the Mongols as evil, and they certainly slaughtered millions of innocent people with their conquests. But within their lands they established order, stability, and prosperity for over a century because nobody would be stupid enough to start shit when you know the response is going to be an army sent to wipe you and your entire city off the face of the Earth.
Of course, that argument doesn't really work for Alexander because he never actually built a lasting, functioning state and his realms immediately collapsed on his death.
>>141048112
>People don't feel empathy for the faceless massess, but do feel empathy for an individual's tragedy.
Wow, just like real life.
>>141048112
As far as I know, Rider only wanted to see the sea. He dindu nothing.
>>141048146
>killed muh 6 millions
>order, stability, and prosperity for over a century
>a century
But you know, if we killed everybody, we'd have peace, order, and prosperity for eternity.
At some point the death-order payoff has to become immoral, one would think. Personally, I put that number somewhere around 5 people; if you kill any *less* than that, the loss is more than the gain.
>>141042364
None of them were inherently wrong or right, in my perspective the one who was wrong, was the one whose convictions faltered, the one who regretted their time and felt unsatisfied about their time. I think a truly great king is one who lives up to their own ideal of ruler-ship, or struggles to do so, even in failure one would not experience regret.
>>141048123
Do they get a new personality after they die?
>>141048194
If you keep talking to me in that tone I'm gonna real life you, buddy
>>141048308
Not usually, but in Gil's case, he changed over the 10 years he had to live in the modern age.
>>141048146
>A stable society requires the presence of a powerful authority.
[citation needed]
>anime is so unironically shit that we're still talking about this 5 minute scene literally 10 years later
>>141048340
He sure seemed like an asshole straight out the gate in f/z.
>>141048373
Ah, it's just common sense, I think. Authoritarian societies get stuff done, good or ill. Democracies stagnate and do nothing.
At least in an authoritarian society, there is a chance of a good king. In a democracy, corruption and stagnation is practically guaranteed. I think this is Aristotle.
>>141048406
What's the logic here?
>>141048429
Being an asshole doesn't automatically make you not good.
>>141048406
>the past was better because we're talking about it!
>>141047964
Outcome doesnt mean evil or good.
Plenty of people have good intentions but outcome can be considered evil
>>141048429
He was, but he got worse thanks to the grail
>>141043975
>>141046595
>>141046656
>>141047288
>tfw google translate actually works for nipponese.
>>141048509
That would be the implication, yes
Rider is historically right. Alexander the Great is easily the most important non-religious figure in history, Gil and Saber aren't even real.
>>141048613
>>141048406
It's fucking fate, idiot, that means nothing. Fate fanbase is probably the oldest on /a/, second only to Eva, I guess.
>>141048479
>>141048509
>What's the logic here?
Is it really that hard to discern?
That since 2007, there has probably been 100,000 minutes of anime produced in total, at least.
Yet, of that 100,000 minutes, this one, 5 minute scene (5/1000th of 1%), is so uniquely exceptional, that we are still having thread about it. Even if there were 100 such scenes (1/2 of 1%), one would still have to conclude that the majority of anime is low quality.
The anime industry is only 1/100th as good as a theoretical anime industry that was "mostly" low quality.
>>141048308
It's supposed to be in the context of the time they lived
>>141048805
>most important
>Not Gengis or Caesar
>>141048603
知らなかったか？まあ、確かに、グーグル翻訳を使えられるんだけど、どうして日本語を壊すのが欲しいのか？ちゃんと日本語を習って、漢字を書く。そのあとでだけ日本語で入力できる。
>>141048826
I get it. I thought you mean this anime still being discussed meant it was shit, but you're saying all anime in general is shit.
>>141048805
Even Hitler is better.
>>141048862
>you're saying all anime in general is shit.
This is the essence of my supposition
>>141048853
Both obviously had a direct influence on more people, but over the long term alex curbstops them.
>>141048888
Hitler's influence on history is almost negligible, a few decades at most. If it wasn't for the whole nevah fuhget campaign he would be only slightly more famous than Mussolini and less famous than Stalin.
>>141042364
How can anyone possibly think saber is right?
>Women
>Ever right about anything
Don't be deluded
In a perfect world, Artoria would be the best king.
In the world of humans, Gilgamesh is the best king.
In no world is Alexander the best king. Best soldier and general, perhaps, but not as a head of his nation. Most of his nation never saw him again once he set off east, abandoned to pick up the pieces in the dusty wake of conquest.
>>141048974
Wars aren't negligible m8
>>141048805
>Alexander the Great is easily the most important non-religious figure in history
Augustus fucking Caesar
>>141049011
She's had a dick before.
>>141049011
Yea, yea
>>141044747
You will always be my favourite, Shinji-kun
>>141048974
>If it wasn't for the whole nevah fuhget campaign
Which includes the great holocaust exaggeration
>>141042364
People don't seem to get that Saber's point was retarded, even she realized it. It wasn't based on logic or reason, it was purely emotional.
She's a teenage girl and she realized her wish was fucking dumb but she didn't care, like teenage girls are prone to do.
>>141049044
"When I came to Rome, it was a city of brick. I left it a city of marble."
"These gates were held open (in Triumphs of total victory) only twice before I came. Since I have ruled, they have been held open thrice."
Augustus brought those fucking bantz.
>>141048855
>だけ日本語で入力できる。
ただ本語で入力できる。
>>141048826
Fate franchise is huge though, you can't compare it to other anime.
>>141049164
>Fate franchise is huge though
And most of it is garbage. I read the VNs. They SUCKED. From now on I'm going to do the exact opposite of what /a/ advises.
>>141049020
WWII is pretty negligible, as it was basically inevitable after WWI. It's only long-term importance is nuclear weapons. And it's not like he single-handedly started the war, Japan, and to a lesser extent Italy and USA, are just as responsible, and British diplomacy (both from WWI and prior to WWII) are pretty responsible too.
>>141049044
Even if you consider him more important than julius he's still significantly less important than alex
>>141049213
I advise you to continue browsing /a/ and not kill yourself.
t. /a/
>>141049161
いいえ、「その後でだけ」と言いたい。「Only after that」とういう意味。
他の間違いをしてたけど。
>>141049139
>People don't seem to get that Saber's point was retarded, even she realized it.
>Implying Rider's point wasn't also contradicted
Only Gil came of of Zero looking pretty.
>>141049222
>Sets the stage for Pax Romana, one of the largest flourishings of culture in the Mediterranean, reworks the roman system into one that will last for 4 centuries past his death, destroys Egypt as a relevant player in the ancient world, has kickass banter.
Alexanders biggest accomplishment is the connection of India and the greek world, and the spreading of Hellanistic culture. Both of which decline rapidly after his death.
>>141042364
Iskander of course.
>>141049256
知らなかった。
ありがとう。
>>141042789
>Best girl
even disgusting worm slut is better than her.
Saiba a shit. A SHIT.
>>141045102
He's the original Donald Trump.
Rider clearly. Saber was virtuous and admirable, but not leadership material since nobody wants to follow the path of a martyr. She was wrong, but for the right reasons. Gil was just an asshole.
>>141048373
Source: history
>>141048475
Authority =/= authoritarianism
The United States is a (relatively) stable society because laws exist to protect citizens and their interests which the citizens can trust the government to enforce. The government possesses real authority, therefore the society that set up the government can prosper.
There are plenty of shitholes in Africa ruled by a government with unlimited authority, but little to no capacity to actually enforce their rule. Even if those governments chose to use their authority act in the best interests of their people (and they don't), they have no real power to do so and therefore the societies that depends on them exercising that authority are weak, decadent, and corrupt.
Also, Fateshit
>>141042949
セイバーさんは正準四郎くんよりもさらに悪い馬鹿でした
>>141049540
>四郎
According to Plato or Machiavelli none of them were correct.
>>141042407
Underrated post. First reply best reply.
>>141049347
Yeah, but what Augustus did was a natural continuation of what was happening before and the inevitable allocation of Roman resources. Odds are, if he didn't do that, anybody else would've. Maybe not quite as efficiently, but Pax Romana happened because Rome had the resources for it. And besides, as much as I love Rome, I don't think Rome simply existing and being strong is all that important. If anything, his most important influence is how his actions lead to the demise of the Roman empire, although I still see that more of a continuation of Julius' stuff.
Alexander, on the other hand, personally made decisions that affected the development of Europe, Asia, and Africa. If he had not decided to take over everything, the entire development of history would've happened much more slowly, like at least a few centuries slower. Also don't forget that Alexander's conquests were a massive inspiration for the Roman generals.
>>141048805
>Alexander the Great is easily the most important non-religious figure in history
Are you completely fucking retarded? Fucking Byzaboos.
Disregarding the fact that his empire collapsed essentially the second he died, he didn't even have a lasting impact on the areas he conquered. Persia basically just picked up where they left off, and the Hellenization of Anatolia and Babylon (on top of the preexisting Hellenistic trade cities along the Mediterranean) only lasted so long because the Romans/Byzantines took over soon after, and Islam wiped that out within decades of its existence.
His legend as a conqueror is the only enduring remnant of his legacy, and even that legend would be overcome in Roman/Byzantine rule by Julius, Augustus, and Justinian's conquests.
>>141047091
I think that Gil's Chaotic Good alignment is more past tense. He was clearly evil after being corrupted by the Grail. Saber herself mentioned it.
