Are these two the ONLY two real villain protagonists?
Which one do you prefer?
>Light
>Vilain
>>140560664
>Light
>Villain
>>140560664
>villain protagonist
it's called anti-hero idiot
>>140560664
Who's the other guy?
>>140560796
Not that guy, but no it's not.
>>140560826
yagami light
>>140560796
Nah, anti-heroes are different, while not having the conventional qualities of a hero they still do a bunch of good stuff and we want to root for them. They are not despicable human beings with no emotions and redeemable qualities like >>140560664
Light was a hero who didn't deserve that ending.
Kiritsugu is a hero.
>>140560664
Ah, it's the two shows I didn't want to watch because they are immensely popular and every fucking normalfag knows about it.
Should I watch it now? Is it too late?
I also never watched Code Geass for the same reason, now I realize this was probably a flawed way to look at things, but I was an edgy teenager who spent his entire adolescence on /a/.
How the hell is Kiritsugu a villain? I don't like him much but he just has extreme methods.
Light's biggest crime is being boring as shit.
>>140560664
watch more anime and lurk more
>>140560909
>killed a helpless guy in a wheelchair and an armless girl
>burned an entire city and killed almost everyone in it
>forced his ideals onto his adopted son to the point he died hating himself
>failed to save his daughter in the end
>failed to save the world in the end
>failed to be a hero in the end
>failed to win the Holy Grail War
>got cursed till he dies
Kiritsugu Emiya the ultimate failure in anime.
Really, is there a bigger failure in anime/manga/LN/VN than Emiya Kiritsugu? The man couldn't do a single thing right.
>>140560955
DN is interesting because of the fact that, to this day, there hasn't been a more handsome anime MC.
Kiritsugu was an utter shit of a father, caused the death of his own wife, left his daughter, failed at teaching magic the one of few people since the dawn of time that had a reality marble, sent his son into a living hell because of his stupid hero of justice shit.
Kiritsugu's got everything Kotomine tried to have - a family he truly loves and finds joy in, and yet he's perfectly willing to toss it all away in the name of his ideals. And that's foolishness of the highest order.
And besides that, he kills Kotomine. If that's not a good enough reason on it's own for me to dislike him, then I don't know what is.
Kiritsugu lived on some tropical paradise except for one lousy day and then travelled the world being a cool guy. He went through some shit, yeah, but he would still be able to live a normal life if he didn't become so obsessed with saving as many people as humanly possible. The ten years or so he spends with Iri are proof of this and a proof that Kiritsugu is basically the luckiest motherfucker alive. Look at his enviable lifestyle, up until the Grail War and even a while after that. He's an assassin who doesn't take shit from anyone and gives exactly zero fucks about pretty much everything. Married to an Einzbern, living the life. Irisviel is the very true definition of trophy wife. You would have to be trying very, very hard to get a better trophy wife than that. Fair skin, silver hair, red eyes, noble lineage, extremely beautiful. Undying love for him. Better yet, she worships him. This is very important, she sees the love she gets from him as an amazing gift she's not even worthy of, as she's nothing but a doll, created for a very specific purpose.
Light because he's a good swimmer.
>>140560724
>>140560788
>killed an ex female FBI agent for no reason
>killed a bunch of FBI agents
>was ready to kill his father and sister
>almost killed everyone in his team
>>140560955
Honestly i was thinking the same as you , but this anime is pretty accurate and logical.
Ofc he got some supernatural shit , but it's pretty well written
>>140560879
You're joking, majority of the peoplr who watched Death Note rooted for light you fucking idiot
>>140561385
>Light "let's kill L on television" Yagami
>it's pretty well written
>>140561326
>ex female
>>140560955
First 20 episodes of DN are actually really good and it wasn't even half as edgy I thought it to be. Second half falls off a bit but it's still watchable.
>>140561442
You mean all the edgy manchildren such as yourself?
Everyone hated Light, L is the most popular character for a reason.
![[UTW]_Fate_Zero_-_Einzbern_Consultation_Room_Special_-_01_[BD][h264-720p_AC3][6A781142].mkv_snapshot_09.05_[2015.05.19_22.45.43].png](https://i.imgur.com/cdEd4JW.jpg "[UTW]_Fate_Zero_-_Einzbern_Consultation_Room_Special_-_01_[BD][h264-720p_AC3][6A781142].mkv_snapshot_09.05_[2015.05.19_22.45.43].png")
Kiritsugoi did nothing wrong.
Had he done anything differently, someone else would've won the Grail resulting in the end of the world. Everything worked out because he is this kind of character.
>>140561653
Who's the one on the left? She looks hot af.
I was gonna mention Griffith, but then I remembered that he was right and did nothing wrong.
>>140561711
>>140561711
Hey now, do not sexualize your homeroom teacher's younger self!
>>140561823
>>140561905
Fuck, she doesn't look that good here
>>140561216
>And besides that, he kills Kotomine.
What? Are you mistaking him for fast wheels?
>>140561823
>>140561905
>shorter hair
Don't remind me.
He died tho
>>140561093
He actually saved the world and if you weren't 12 you'd see why he had to do those things.
>>140562230
You're the one that's 12 who finds it funny when Kiritsugu murders innocent people.
>>140560724
>>140560788
I hate this board.
>>140561752
Fuck off Sonia, no one likes you.
>>140563744
kill yourself
>>140561093
Kiritsugu did nothing wrong
>>140560664
What about Lelouche from Code Geass?
>>140560664
>>140565411
He wasn't a villain.
He wanted to create a better world and he cared for his sister and for his friends including Shirley and others.
>>140561093
Failing at saving people doesn't make you a villain, dumbass
>>140560664
There's Dark Schneider.
I'd say Golgo 13 counts as a villain too.
Then there's these guys who are "villains", like Harlock and Luffy.
>>140565517
Like that guy Watchmen?
Both of the main characters of Berserk are villains.
>>140561555
>L is the most popular character for a reason.
Which clearly pandered to the muh special snowflake quirky identity type of manchildren and tumblrwhales.
Same coin, different sides.
>>140561521
Its his 1st misstep. He didnt know what he was dealing with, and he learned from his mistake and killed L.
>>140561990
Fuck you Taiga is a miracle of the universe
>>140567164
Yeah but Light is actually pretty fucking dumb.
He could have just ended everyone, but no, he wanted a big stand off or something, he wanted to show everyone how smart and superior he is and in the end that cost him his life.
Kiritsugu's just really childish.Thinking he can save the world if he tries hard enough when he doesn't even know how to do it. The smartest choice he ever did was saving shirou and raising him.
>>140567390
>raising him
>not sitting down and explaining heroism
>dies leaving his son a broken machine
>smart
>>140567301
Thats what I think too. He accused N for wanting to win too beautifully but hes also the same.
I also think hes being too cautious by not killing off the other members
>>140560664
Kerry is an anti hero, light is a villain protagonist.
>>140567390
He DID save the world though
Is Kiritsugu even the main character of Fate/Zero?
I always thought the show didn't have a main character.
If light didn't go full egomaniac and tried to become the world's god, and his mentality wouldn't drive him to start killing people who simply weren't up to standarts after all criminals were killed would he be in the wrong?
I mean some criminals don't give a shit about others they rob, they can be the nicest person ever, but oops, he was too nervous when robbing you and you moved just a little bit making him think you were going to attack him so now you're dead.
I honestly didn't feel sorry for the criminals, but i do understand that light was going to go overboard once he possibly killed all the criminals and target people who weren't inside his spectrum of quality.
>>140561326
Self defense. You gotta do what you gotta do.
>>140567503
If he was raised properly Shirou would probably have ended up like Shinji.
>>140567711
Thanks for the tip. Ill probably commit familicied tomorrow
>>140567523
If he killed off the other members, everyone would have immediately figured it out.
>>140560664
watch more series, fag.
>>140567768
Make sure they're attacking you first and collect evidence.
>>140567587
He only ever saved the world from his own folly. He could have destroyed the Greater Grail before the war ever began and prevent the entire HGW and all the loss of life that would have resulted from it, but he didn't, so every death in the fire afterward is still on his hands.
Kiritsugu's story is about a childish man who thinks the ends justifies the means, and when the end he wanted doesn't come about, and he realizes that all his methods only ever resulted in greater pain and suffering for those around him, he completely breaks down. The only thing that saves him from dying alone and miserably is the fact that Shirou survived the fire and promised to become a hero in his stead, so that everything Kerry did was not pointless.
What if Light had been patient and killed someone from outside his country at first with a heart attack? Or maybe ordered the kidnapper to shot himself instead of killing him off with a heart attack and then started the heart attack chain outside of Japan?
>>140567894
Like what? From kyoani? Fuck off dickface
>>140567935
Even then he makes Shirou paranoid with the idea of being a hero and almost makes him follow his footsteps. If anything he fucked up all the way, just didn't fuck up enough with Shirou.
>>140567856
There'd be no one left to figure it out ,really.
>>140567981
Light shouldve forced the US to nuke japan again to get rid of the real world problem that is anime
>>140568078
How about N or mello. Theyll eventually find out
>>140567894
Not OP, but I have 112 shows completed on my MAL and Light is still the only true villain protagonist I've seen.
>>140568078
Everyone outside of his team would find it extremely suspicious though, "if the killer managed to figure out everyone's names and faces why not light?" would be their line of thought. They had no proof, but still, they were facing a super natural killer, they would detain him for certain.
>>140568072
Kerry's one success was in making sure Shirou did not inherit his mistakes. While he did pass down to Shirou his ideal of becoming a hero of justice, he did not taint that ideal with things like 'the ends justifying the means'. Kerry only ever pursued a flawed version of his own ideals, while Shirou had the opportunity to become exactly the kind of hero Kerry originally wanted to become.
How come that every single character that follows Machiavellian principles and thinks that "ends justify means" or that it's okay to hill 20 people to save 50 usually turns out to be a complete dumbass by the end of the show? It's like anime is trying to tell us not to follow this logic.
And they all usually end up dead.
>>140568072
He did give Shirou Avalon, which is the reason why Shirou managed to win the HGW and why Archer exists.
All this Fate talk makes me wanna watch FSN by Ufotable even though /a/ keeps saying it's shit.
>>140568361
Because most of the time, following that train fo thought will not change much in the end, especially if you're fucking up your own sanity along the way. Wanting to do well for the biggest number of people is fine, but if you apply this logic even if you're going to hurt yourself because someone you care about is in the middle of the mess and you sacrifice then for the "greater good", you're a retard in my honest opnion.
Following that route would have no doubt made him dangerous for everyone in the end, he just didn't go that way because he found Shirou, if he didn't i don't even know what would have happened.
>>140560664
Raito was righto
>>140568619
He's so beautiful.
If only he wasn't such a boring protag.
Would you follow Kiritsugu's idea of greater good? I can understand wanting to save the greatest number of people possible, but i'd try to see if i can't save both, if that's not possible then i'd possibly save the most. I'd imagine there's also the dillema of "the majority were all mostly rotten people", but in most situations like that there's probably no time to discern who deserves to be saved or not.
If it involved people i cared about though? I would drop everyone to save then. It stops being about the greater good once it involves those important to me.
>>140568361
Because it's fucking retarded logic, and 'ends justify the means' isn't even Machiavellian, it's a popular mistranslation of something else he said that took on a life of its own in ethics discourses.
Any sort of ethical basis where committing a crime for the good of the many is justified leads to the ultimate issue of being human: we don't know if killing x people will really save y others, we can't know if that will be the case, we cannot even be confident that y people are more inherently valuable than x people because we don't know who any of these people are.
Can you judge the worth of a group of people by the numbers of lives involved alone? If it was ten people with the cure for every disease that ever will be, versus the lives of ten million other people, what would be the long term ramifications of sacrificing those ten people? How many billions, or trillions, of humans in the future might die to those diseases that may never be cured?
But is it fair to judge inherent worthiness to survive based purely on future potential when it is only ever a potential outcome? What if killing those ten million (which would only be reasonably accomplishable with nuclear weapons) leads to four billion dead in a nuclear armageddon? What if humanity never properly rebuilds after that, and slowly goes extinct? What good would cures for diseases be in that instance?
Kiritsugu is confronted with this exact quandry by the corrupted grail, and then it comes true when it burns Fuyuki, and he learns that everything he ever did to try to achieve world peace only caused greater suffering. Because we cannot intrinsically know jack shit about what may or may not be, the ends justifies the means will only ever work in a case where one knows for certain that there will be an absolute net profit in lives or smiles protected. Killing one African warlord might lead to a more stable nation for a little while, but when the next warlord rises to power, how many more suffer?
>>140561555
L is popular for autistic teenagers as >>140567107
said. I'm glad he died because he was annoying.
>>140568763
Moreover, is committing a crime when you do not know for certain if it will produce a net profit for society's benefit even something that can be called justified? Is taking such a risk without the consent of society itself justifiable?
Dostoyevsky posits the scenario of killing for the good of society in Crime and Punishment. He ultimately comes to the conclusion that murder for any purpose is, regardless, murder. This is yet another direction the argument can take: can a crime even be justifiable by any definition, let alone the end results? If the answer is no, then clearly the ends do not justify the means. If the answer is yes, then you've opened a whole can of worms as to which crimes can be justified, and by what metric crimes should be ranked in evilness, and by what metric any given justification should be given weight in comparison to those crimes.
Or you ask if a crime is truly evil, just because society has outlawed it. And then you have to judge which crimes are evil and which are not, formulating some basis for that as well.
Ethics is a load of bullshit.
>>140560664
Kiritsugu is Chaotic Good
Light is Lawful Evil
>>140560664
>villain protagonists
Does she count?
>>140568763
Life is short and in the end the only thing that matters is you and what you take pleasure in. The whole "for the greater good" is a lie that successful people shill to the average chump to keep the subservient and docile. You don't get ahead by putting others first and altruism is a synonym for kekold.
So yeah. Your happiness is what matters in the end.
>>140568850
What the fuck?
How was he annoying? He was easily the best and the most intriguing character in the whole series. The show went to shit when he died and they gave him such an anticlimactic death I am still mad.
>>140568763
>>140569041
So Kiritsugu should've enjoyed his life with Irisviel and let Kotomine destroy the humanity? Is this what you wanted to say?
>>140569566
>Kotomine
>destroy the humanity
Is that what he really wanted? I don't remember properly.
>Implying that either of these pleb faggots was even close to being a real villain
Pic related literally ushered in the apocalypse so he could sate his thirst for violence. Step it up.
>>140569724
It doesn't really matter what he wanted since Angry Manjew was going to kill everyone regardless of who won.
>>140560664
>thinking Light did anything wrong
How's middle school going friend?
>>140570103
No one cares about your opinion
>>140560724
>>140560788
>>140560889
>>140570103
dull your edges, nobody is impressed
>>140569566
He should have just blown up the Greater Grail and fucked off with Irisviel and Ilyasviel to somewhere the Einzberns couldn't touch them to live a modest, but happy life. The only thing his ethics and ideals brought him was the suffering of losing his wife and daughter, creating a calamity by his own two hands, and completely failing to live up to his own ideals.
Kotomine would have never fallen to the dark side if the Holy Grail War had never taken place. Gil would never have been summoned. Zouken would no longer have a reason to live, and probably break down under the despair. Sakura would never have gone to the Matous. Kariya would have been able to live his cucked life in peace. Caster would never have murdered people and children on a wide scale, and his master would have remained a two-bit serial killer. Shirou would have grown up as a normal child. The other orphans from the fire would not have been tortured to death by Kotomine for prana. The only good that came out of the Fourth Holy Grail War was Waver meeting Iskandar.
Everything Kiritsugu did in pursuit of his ideals while maintaining the philosophy that the ends justify the means caused unimaginable suffering and death. He knew the Holy Grail War was a farce, he set bombs to destroy the Greater Grail before it even started, but his mistake was choosing to set the detonators for after the fourth war, so that he could attain his wish of world peace.
>>140570538
>He knew the Holy Grail War was a farce, he set bombs to destroy the Greater Grail before it even started
Is this real?
>>140570538
>somewhere the Einzberns couldn't touch them to live a modest, but happy life
Good luck with that.
>>140570767
Yes. The bombs were set to detonate a few decades after the Fourth Holy Grail war, which should have been before the next one could begin since there's usually 60 year intervals between each one.
He could not have predicted that there would be another in only ten years.
And even still, it's Waver, Rin, and their networks of colleagues who finally dismantle the Greater Grail to end the wars (in what is described as another conflict quite similar to a HGW), because the bombs still hadn't gone off a few years after the Fifth Holy Grail War.
>>140570768
Not like Kerry was unused to a life on the run. More than his fair share of magus families had it in for him due to his typical work of murdering magi.
>>140570970
Wait, could he even do anything about Irisviel turning into the grail? I thought that was out of his control.
>>140571032
The Lesser Grail only functions as a Grail as long as the Greater Grail is active. Sakura stops being a grail vessel after Heaven's Feel because there's no longer anything actively using her. It would be the same for Irisviel and Ilyavsiel.
However, both would still probably die prematurely due to being haemonculi. Depends for Ilya, since she might have lived much longer without the modifications the Einzberns made to her to make her a better grail vessel.
>>140570970
>Yes. The bombs were set to detonate a few decades after the Fourth Holy Grail war
So you're talking about him setting bombs after the fourth war ended, when he actually learned that HGW is a farce. The way you've put it in previous post is confusing.
Fate fags sure know how to hijack a thread.
>>140571195
No, he placed the bombs before the war as a contingency in the case that he lost the war, or that he could not get his wish granted for some reason, since he would probably be dead by the time the next one rolled around. He did not know that the grail was corrupted, but he knew that the war itself was magi being fucking idiots and/or evil assholes. Remember that a tried and true method for feeding your Servant mana if you could not properly supply them was to kill and devour people. Innocents had been killed in the wars before, and they probably would in the future.
>>140560664
Yeah, it's not like they would make an anime about arms dealers or liches in their dungeons or stupid shit like that.
>>140571375
No on in Jormungand is a villain.
>>140571361
>He knew the Holy Grail War was a farce
>He did not know that the grail was corrupted
Okay I see you can manipulate information to prove your point, but it doesn't really make your point right
>>140571361
He also placed them because of the however slim odds that his wish was granted and yet another HGW took place, where anyone could make any sort of evil-ass wish that might fuck up the whole world peace thing.
Kerry hated the HGW from start to finish, the only reason he participated in it was because he thought it was worth it to save the world.
>>140570538
>He should have just blown up the Greater Grail and fucked off with Irisviel and Ilyasviel to somewhere the Einzberns couldn't touch them to live a modest, but happy life
What is Kaleid Liner?
>>140571523
Except it is still a farce to him, you mongoloid.
Kerry holds the HGW in the highest distaste from the moment he hears about it because it's just another petty squabble between magi that endangers the innocent. It's everything he's been killing his entire life to put an end to. He thinks the idea of recovering the Third Magic is retarded, could not give less of a shit about it, and just wants to hijack the whole thing for his own ends.
You haven't made even the slightest attempt to prove my point incorrect, so trying to play semantics is pretty pathetic of you.
Kiritsugu or Light, who would have won?
>>140570970
no, he set the bombs after the HGW ended
Kiritsugu had once released a demon powerful enough to destroy the world because of his aspirations. It was too late when he finally realized his mistake. Countless people had died because of it, including Shirō’s own father and mother.
And that harbinger of Hell was still lurking beneath Mount Enzō even now. After that battle, Kiritsugu had repeatedly visited that place with dynamite, and spent years to map out the situation of a few leylines. He had meticulously created a ‘bump’ at a location leading towards Mount Enzō. That might be the last time for him to use magecraft in his life.
The prana produced from the junction of numerous leylines will collect upon that ‘bump’ with time. When its limit is reached, a localized earthquake will be triggered deep within Mount Enzō. It would take a minimum of 30 years and a maximum of about 40 years for the ‘bump’ to break. If all his calculations were correct, then the cavern within Mount Enzō would collapse and seal away the “Greater Grail” forever. Though he would not be able to live to see that day, Kiritsugu had done the best he could to prevent the fifth Heaven’s Feel 60 years later.
>>140571987
Except playing semantics is what you have been doing from the beginning. You almost made me rethink his character, if it wasn't for the fact you forgot that "retarded because desperate" and "retarded because retarded" isn't quite the same.
>>140572544
Suck my fucking dick you fucking retard.
Him.
Why did Light kill criminals who were going to be executed anyway? What's the point?
Kiritsugu was more human.
After the first few episode, Light becomes a psycho with a god-complex
>>140560664
Kiritsugu did nothing wrong.
While Yagami is a criminal scum that needs to beexecuted.
>>140560664
Why doesn't Light's hairstyle work in real life?
>>140560955
You're still an edgy teenager, you're asking for advice/approval
>>140573393
Light did nothing wrong.
>>140561216
man Iri is so creepy
>>140574566
Only if by creepy you mean sexy
>>140574566
>>140574740
perfect semen demon tbqh family
>>140574740
I'd shoulder all the evils of the world to plow that
>>140565752
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C06C1tbv1-A
Failing at saving people from yourself does make you a villain.
>>140574939
I loved this game like four years ago.
>>140569063
>a literal ancient god of evil acknowledges him as his successor
>Chaotic Good
Kerry did some bad things, but he did save lives, and was just trying to help people.
It's the same with Archer, and arguably Shirou, too.
Their lives might not end up being the noblest, or prettiest, and they might do things that they might regret, but in the end, "it's not a mistake".
>>140560664
>save millions of innocent lives in exchange for killing bunch of hardened criminals
>save the world by killing few innocents people
>muh villains
>>140561216
>this fucking headcannon
his only failure was in being an absentee father, which led to his daughter turning into a semen demon so greedy for cum that she split into two existences so that she could better harvest sexual fluids.
>>140575360
>kill your father in the process of doing so (in both cases)
>not a villain
>>140575416
Kerry tried to go and get Ilya, but the Einzberns wouldn't even let him on the estate.
A boat with three super genius babies that'll cure cancer
vs
A boat full of the entire african population
Who do you choose?
>>140560724
>>140560788
>m'lady
>>140560724
>>140560788
here's an old meme for you
*tips fedora*
>>140560955
>didn't want to watch because they're immensely popular
>caring about other people's view on the medium
Holy shit kill yourself.
I hope anime becomes even more mainstream so we'll be rid of spineless faggots like you.
>>140562139
He didn't die famo
He swallowed a beam through his rectum.
>>140576178
>I hope anime becomes even more mainstream
fuck u idiot
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VillainProtagonist/AnimeAndManga
>>140575455
>father dies due to a gang member
>father assassinated due to him wanting to be a monster
First case wasn't even his fault. Second case was justified.
>>140576630
>Madoka
lol?
>>140576630
>>140579055
Light isn't an anti hero tho, he's a piece of shit murderer.
Can someone explain to me, how exactly is Light a villain?
