Is Griffith right? He's brought about a world everyone dreams of, in trying to destroy him is guts really the bad guy? What are your thoughts /a/?
Raping is a bad thing anon.
>>140287261
Well yeah, but does his current actions outweigh his sins? im conflicted here. Maybe this is why people told me its good.
>>140287310
No, they don't.
>>140287356
Okay then.
>>140287356
Good talk.
>He's brought about a world everyone dreams of
No, he caused nightmares and monsters to appear, then "saved" people from them. It's not exactly good when you were one to deliberately cause to problem in the first place.
>>140287310
>but does his current actions outweigh his sins?
Nah.
a dream is just a dream desu, theirs no way a "perfect" world could exist in the physical plain
>>140287607
wel sade frend
>>140287673
>well said friend
I corrected that for you.
And now go and learn spelling.
>>140287842
Gee thanks anon. How nice of you to single out one post in the thread of numerous illiterate faggots to correct it. It is quite the honour.
>>140287986
>3 word sentence
>and all of them wrong
I'm sorry but this just pissed the autistic me off to much.
>>140287114
Miura is well-versed in western occultism, as demonstrated by his faithful adaptation of such concepts as the astral plane and odic force in Berserk. Throughout the work, there have been hints and suggestions as to a certain pattern that Guts and Griffith are following which I believe to be Miura's direction.
Griffith is the antichrist. The antichrist is not outwardly some spiny horned demon lord crying tears of blood, but an individual of boundless charisma who appears to grant those who follow him happiness, peace, and security. He is superficially without flaw, an unquestionable messiah who offers salvation to everyone around him, hence being the anti"christ" - he is a parallel to the true messiah. The antichrist's paradise, however, is founded on deceit and illusion. He accomplishes utilitarian happiness at the expense of others and is therein morally questionable. Beneath his heavenly exterior, he is nothing but the ultimate devil, the prince of lies, and he will lead humanity astray in the final days of judgment. Say what you will of Christianity's derpiness, but few other mythologies offer such a complete and grand antagonist.
Guts, on the other hand, is the true messiah. Unlike Griffith, he is fundamentally a self-sacrificing person who strives to do what is right, even when it's hard. He is not a shining, glorious hero, but a tattered and ragged man constantly struggling and often for the sake of others, even though he dislikes admitting it. He is modest in his bearing because he lacks faith in himself, his principles, and his own conduct as being morally sound, but it is exactly for this reason, that he acknowledges and is honest to himself about his inner darkness, that he is able to reject it and act foremost as an icon of humanity. At the same time, despite his lack of faith in himself, no one else has such a clear purity of purpose and unrelenting drive to do.
(cont)
>>140288109
Lastly, I think Griffith intends for Guts to kill him in a climactic showdown to either follow an apocalyptic narrative or to bring about a true paradise. He has been setting the stage all this time for that purpose. Whether his motives are completely unpretentious and/or he truly sacrifices himself in doing so remains to be seen.
>>140288109
The only missing thing is now Guts being tempted by the devil himself.
And i will start eating out of your hand for seeing through Miura so well.
>>140288241
Well, not the devil himself, but Slan did seem to want him to make a sacrifice and become an apostle himself. And then there's his own dark side constantly badgering him to let loose and potentially kill everyone he cares about.
>>140288205
>Griffith intends for Guts to kill him in a climactic showdown to [...] bring about a true paradise
I wouldn't count on it. What Griffith wanted was a kingdom, and his sacrifice allowed him to get it. He clearly has no feelings towards Guts whatsoever now, let alone Guts being part of the plan to bring about paradise, otherwise Griffith would have goaded him on the hill of swords to keep that lust for vengeance strong.
I personally think Miura has written himself a colossus he cannot wrangle. A giant heap of plotlines seem to be leading somewhere, but a successful resolution to the story would need to be on par or Greater than the Eclipse with all of them leading up to this moment. It's no wonder he is either on hiatus all the time or writing filler, he might be still trying to think of a way to end it.
>>140288499
>Demons talking and tempting the messiah
>Demons getting btfo
>He himself is a human with a pretty dark side
Sounds pretty close to the bible.
I suppose you could see that part with Slan as the devil tempting him.
Well looks like i gotta eat out of your hands anon.
>>140287114
how does every single person forget about hte fact that Griffith is literally a puppet of the God MADE ENTIRELY OUT OF EVIL, whose coworkers intentionally spread plague and discord so that Midland's population can be brought under Griffith's control more easily.
We KNOW that apart from Guts, witches, Skullknight and agents who Guts interacts with, everyone is just a leaf floating on the stream of causality.
I.e. Griffith included.
The Idea told Griffith to do as he pleases BECAUSE the Idea already knows that what Griffith pleases will suit the Idea just fine.
The Idea has known what Griffith wanted since Griffith was an infant and has been arranging the path for griffith to take the whole time.
>>140288756
>is literally a puppet of the God MADE ENTIRELY OUT OF EVIL
Because it was from a chapter that Miura pulled because it was based on a Nietzschean concept that people would have, definitely misunderstood, and clearly already have, judging from your post.
So, one question: How the fuck was a world full of magical monsters his ultimate dream? I mean, this is pretty much the castle he always dreamed of, right? Or is his ultimate dream a unified country, and all the monsters roaming around are just some stupid, inefficent means for his cause?
>>140287114
Griffith is a pathetic cuck having a temper tantrum.
This is a man so petty that even after becoming a god he felt it necessary to reincarnate as a human just so he he could be the biggest fish in a small pond because the other members of the hand were probably treating him like the little bitch he is.
>>140289041
>after becoming a god
He didn't have a kingdom though. Which was his goal all along.
>>140289041
This. The fact that he clung to his dream alone is proof that he stayed human, thus being a failure. I mean, he IS practically a god, and still concerns himself with humanity? How weak is that?
>>140289133
>he IS practically a god
All of the "gods" show extreme interest in human emotions.
>>140288640
I always thought that the only weakness that griffith has is that he was reborn using the corrupted son of Guts who loves his parents.
I haven't read berserk in a while but I think where hints that showed it messed him up somehow.
It would be very funny if that will end up getting him killed because it would mean that he lost because he raped casca which was unnecessary. He would have dug his own grave.
I don't see how he could get killed otherwise seeing how godly he is.
>>140289230
>but I think where hints
*but I think there were
God I'm tired.
>>140289194
Well, then they are fucking failures too. It's like if you made some kind of minature castle for ants in your free time, when you could alternatively study Physics or something.
>>140289230
Do you think that succubus is Gut's or Griffith's son?
>>140289455
Both.
It was Guts son with Caska that was corrupted in the eclipse by Griffith.
>>140288640
This is a fair interpretation, but I personally have more faith in Miura's writing skill. I do believe he's written the plot out and has an ending in mind, like he's said previously. I think what is giving him so much trouble is the actual artwork involved, since he clearly puts ludicrous amounts of effort into it. I imagine he refuses to release anything that doesn't fit a particular standard he's set for himself, as he is a perfectionist.
>>140288677
That guy isn't me, incidentally. But I'm glad you agree that it's a good direction for Miura to go in.
>>140288756
>is literally a puppet of the God MADE ENTIRELY OUT OF EVIL
Uh... in that view, everyone is a puppet of the Idea of Evil.
It doesn't really work exactly that way. Also what >>140288898 said.
>>140289194
Yeah, the power of the God Hand and all things in the Astral are intimately tied to the human collective unconsciousness, their ideals and feelings.
>>140289230
That would be pretty cool/a nice direction that's been hinted at since the beginning.
>>140289455
It's gut's son. Casca got impregnated when guts and her fugged. A few weeks later griffith somehow fucked it up with his demonic semen.
It likes both casca and guts because they are his parents.
>>140289455
You mean Slan?
>>140289768
aah, not succubus, I meant that nightmare baby that follows Guts around, what do you call that demon again?
>>140289934
The species of malicious spirits that invade dreams known as Incubi and Casca's nightmare baby by Guts and Griffith's seed are different entities.
>>140289934
Ah, I know who you're talking about. They call it Farnese. It thinks it's in love with Guts.
Jokes aside, I don't think it has an official name. Demon spawn, Guts' stillbirth, etc. is what I'd use, and people would probably understand you.
>>140290017
Ah, that was the name! Oh, so you mean Gut's and Casca's child is that black haired naked kid?
>>140290114
>>140290017
>>140289934
I hear that Griffith is actually using the body of the baby as his physical body.
>>140290156
The black haired naked kid is the Fairy Prince. I think.
>>140289538
>Uh... in that view, everyone is a puppet of the Idea of Evil.
yeah, to some extent. except the idea does't have a particular plan for most people but it does for griffith, and has made him his agent like ublik, conrad , et. al.
>>140288898
the reason normally given for not including the chapter in volume reprints is because miura thought it gave away too much.
Until it gets contradicted by something written in the manga, it stands.
> a Nietzschean concept that people would have, definitely misunderstood, and clearly already have, judging from your post.
the chapter happened exactly as I said, which is why you aren't able to respond with anything other than a vague and unsubstantiated claim, because you know that I'm right.
>>140290194
>The black haired naked kid is the Fairy Prince. I think.
That's what I thought too! And the Incubus is Casca's stillbirth.
>>140290244
Learn how to type properly you retarded fuckwit.
>>140290244
The fact that you're -just- treating the Idea of Evil as an outright character with motivations and drives such that the God Hand could be its "puppets" shows that you have utterly missed the point of the concept.
>>140287114
You're really retarded anon if you think that we're supposed to feel conflicted about his choices, this isn't like Veidt with watchmen where you can argue about the morality of his action. I mean for fuck sake the rape made it explicit that this isn't an ends justify the means type scenario, that and dooming the entire humanity by letting hell all out.
>>140288109
Yeah, it's pretty obvious by the way Falconia was created, thanks to the same demons they were struggling against
>>140287491
Isn't that like government 101?
>>140288205
>implying berserk will ever get an end
>>140291324
Wasn't the rape for a purpose?
>>140287114
Why do we keep having these threads? I swear to fucking god, 50% of berserk threads are "griffith did nothing wrong", 30% are "it wasn't rape", 10% are "donovan did nothing wrong", and the last 10% are actual discussions, which tend to be genuinely some of the best threads on /a/.
Why can't we have more of the last group?
>>140290244
>>140290712
Actually, I shall explain this to you further.
While I think that the Idea of Evil is still present within the story and there may very well come a point where that chapter is reinserted, it's not a relevant antagonist or character. Rather, the Idea of Evil is a concept drawn from multiple philosophical inspirations, of which I think the most relevant are Plato, Schopenhauer and, as >>140288898 notes, Nietzsche. Basically, the Idea of Evil is an allegory of something that can be seen within our own reality and the idea that it can be confronted or defeated as such is absurd.
Firstly, we must consider Plato's theory of forms/ideas. The term idea comes from the Greek ἰδÎα. These are what Plato asserts are perfect templates that exist in a higher reality than our own which are conceivable by our own thoughts and feelings. Ideas are the ultimate reference points for all objects we observe in the physical world - our reality, which is objective yet subjectively interpretable by our individual perceptions, ultimately emanates from these pure concepts. They are more real than the physical objects you see in the world.
This is a chicken or the egg situation - ideals are conceived by humanity, but have always been there. Berserk's is a world where humanity's minds are undeniably embodied in the Astral, and that is its divergence from our own. In Berserk, the human condition is wishing for a reason for suffering, so with humanity comes the Idea of Evil, which grants their wish.
As to Schopenhauer, he believed that behind the scenes of life there was something pernicious that made a nightmare of our world. The phenomenal world, and consequently all human action, is the product of a blind, insatiable, and malignant metaphysical will that drives all life forward in a grand, fundamentally interconnected world (incidentally, this is part of H.P. Lovecraft's inspiration for Azathoth, the Outer God which dreams our reality into existence).
(cont)
>>140287261
>2016
>still white knighting
>>140287114
Are those threads really serious? I mean have you really read the manga? There are currently very few safe places in the berserk world, and it's just because of the merging of the worlds brought forth by Griffith. Just because he is ruling over, and thus protecting the few who made it out alive doesn't mean he's good. The mob loves him, because he's made to look like a savior. It was all carefully planned, he is quite literally the antichrist of the berserk world.
>>140290244
>>140293640
I'll skip ahead and get to Schopenhauer's relevant point: human beings are not as invulnerably self-possessed as they'd like to believe. Every person, from birth till death, is a product of their environment, the genes of their parents and their formative experiences, an indeterminable series of events and conditions, many of which they cannot control. Could this not indicate that factors beyond our control have already taken care of who we are as individuals and what choices we will finally make? People are made as they are made (by their genetics, formative experiences, et al.) and cannot be otherwise. That is the Fate of Berserk's world and, indeed, can be argued to apply to our own as well.
Nietzsche drew inspiration from Schopenhauer in his own philosophies, but what is relevant here, and why the Idea most pertinent to Berserk was called "Evil" is almost certainly because of him. Nietzsche believed that the concept of evil as applied by humans had a negative effect on people's potential by promoting the weak in spirit and suppressing the strong. He contends that the powerless and weak created the concept of evil to take revenge against their oppressors, and asserts that the concepts of good and evil contribute to an unhealthy view of life which judges relief from suffering as more valuable than creative self-expression and accomplishment. For this reason Nietzsche believes that we should seek to move beyond judgements of good and evil.
Griffith and Guts are both übermenschen who surpass the definition of evil following their own moral values and therein are able to work within a fate which holds down others from greatness.
(cont))
>>140290244
>>140293884
With or without the Idea of Evil, humans would still act as they do. It is merely an ἰδÎα, a manifestation conjured by them in the Astral. This is why all of the God Hand an Apostles ultimately stem from humanity itself and that is the Idea of Evils ONLY tangible means of action.
Which is why treating the Idea of Evil as a character unto itself is retarded. It might as well be Griffith talking to himself. He's having a deep inner revelation which enlightens him as to the nature of the world.
>>140292848
I want to believe.
>>140287114
He did nothing wrong.
>>140290313
Inccubi are those little one-eyed flying squiddies that give nightmares. Not to be confused with Guts' and Casca's deformed evil-tainted baby.
>>140293594
One sad thing on /a/ is that it has become custom to try to get attention by using a controversial topic in an attempt to catch the interests of as many people as possible.
It is called bait after all.
>>140294141
Wasn't it called Incubus at some point in the manga? Or am I confusing things?
>>140294729
Incubus is the singular form of Incubi. It's a mythological demon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus
>>140294729
Nah, unless you read some weird translations. It was usually refered to as demon child or something simmilar.
>>140294729
Yes you are confusing it. Guts is regularly stabbing incubi for giving him bad dreams.
>>140294933
Ah fuck I always thought that the demon child was giving him nightmares, but I just reread that chapter, you're right, he stabs some Incubi there, not his child.
>>140295041
The demon child is sometimes giving him "visions".
At least I remember him informing Guts in a sort of a dream that Caska is in danger at the tower of Albion.
So you weren't far off.
>>140293594
I think we have a pretty nice thread going on
>>140288109
>>140293640
>>140293884
Keep writing more philosophical shit bro, posts like these are the only reason why most of us browse these threads.
>>140293640
>>140293884
>>140293984
Welp, I don't think anyone can argue that
>>140295525
I agree!
>>140293640
>>140293884
keep going mate!
>>140287114
Guy's bros go to save him and he ends up sacrificing his life long bros and raping his best bros girl. How did he do nothing wrong?
>>140287114
>a world everyone dreams of
I don't know about you but I'd rather not live in a perpetual nightmare.
>>140295708
>>140295767
>>140295945
There's not much else to say unless another topic comes up, is all.
Miura is an intelligent, talented creator who is well-versed in western occultism and philosophy. A lot of the concepts he uses can be traced back to those things. Berserk actually has a very well-ordered cosmology and its pretty neat world-building is far too often overlooked.
I like how certain places are inspired by different time periods/cultures.
Most of Midland seems to be based on central medieval europe.
Virtannis looks like renaissance Italy.
Old Gaiseric capital looks like Rome, which is kind of ironic, since he was historically the leader of Vandals.
Kushans obviously are based on Kushans. There's plety hindu motifs everywhere, and perhaps some arabic motifs, like armours but I may just be misinterpreting indian ones for arabic.
And now we've arrived at the Elf Island which has this celtic feel to it.
I could have missed some. Either way, I love it.
>>140290712
> an outright character with motivations a
This is objectively true.
we KNOW that the idea acts with purpose because it has been arranging griffith's since it was a child life by influencing the flow of causality.
that shows purpose and intention you retard.
>>140290343
>being so butthurt and intellectually handicapped you can't do anything except point out a lack of capital letters
>>140299532
I think you are a child and that is why you don't understand anything. You really should not be on 4chan, kid. Children like you are the reason it's declined in quality these last 6 years or so.
I don't know anything about Berserk, philosophy or storytelling. I think in the banned chapter of Berserk, the 'Idea of Evil' was trying to create Griffith as a person who was no longer bounded by fate. The first being to have (true) freewill.
>>140300089
wow great rebuttal.
10/10 argument.
genius.
>>140287114
>he believes Griffith's lies
You really think people are safe in Falconia ?
>>140287114
Griffith has already done quite enough to earn the ire of Guts and everyone involved with the old Millenium Falcon (although most are dead).
Beyond that, Griffith doesn't really seem to care for the people, does he? The only reason he's done what he has is because he desires a kingdom under his own rule, he just followed the path fate laid out that would lead him into such a position. If his ambitions and desires were to next lead down a path that required further sacrifice of others, he'd do it.
>>140287114
He hasn't brought about a just world. He has his own country, but everywhere outside it has become hell.
>>140287114
>>140302199
It was already hell. At least now there's one place that is decent. So overall it's an improvement.
Do the god hands exist anymore? I can't remember since the last time Miura showed them was like 12 years ago
>>140305493
Yeah dude. Only griffith is in the physical plain while the others are in some kind of broken demention but can choose when to appear.
Griffith right? What are you talking about?
Griffith did achieve HIS goals. That being creating a kingdom of his own. He doesn't care about the people in it, so when things go to hell in his Kingdom it will make little difference.
Yes Guts will probably be seen as a bad guy if he tries to defeat Griffith if the kingdom still seems to be good on the exterior. Not like any of us will live long enough to see that happen.
>>140287114
Griffith is the Falcon of Light who gives hope and happiness to everyone while Guts is the Hound of Darkness who inflict fear and despair to people's heart. That alone tells you the truth.
>>140287114
I honestly think hes going to sacrifice everyone in falconia to revive the god hand
>>140288109
Post more faggot
>>140287114
If this is Guts and Griffith who is Dr Manhattan ?
>>140306345
The Ideal of Evil?
>>140287114
>kills all his comrades
>>140306320
I don't have anything to post about.
>>140309168
You are one of the very people in 4chan that gives us anons some hope that normally don't think very well of this cesspool and others. Keep posting in these threads and the future. 99% of this place is horrible but that 1% that is you makes it a whole lot more bearable.
>>140306232
Im amazed it took so long for someoen to reply with this.
Pretty mucn agree.
I wouldnt be suprised if this is all just a plan to gather as many people as possible for a huge sacrifice/feast. Hes even got all the apostles gathered too.
Wait. What if its a feast were the food is the Apostles gorged on the citiznes and the one eating is the God Hand to bring about the Idea of Evil?
>Guys is the "BLACK swordsman"
>Griffith is the "WHITE hawk"
I get it!
niggers are evil
>>140310068
Thanks! Unfortunately, I can't be on 4chan for every Berserk thread. This site really has declined with age, so it's just not worth the time. I do come here looking for discussion often, though, since there's occasionally interesting stuff going on and it's good for catching up with the flavor of the season. I really do enjoy that so many people appreciate when I gush at length about these things.
Did they ever get off the boat?
>>140287114
straight out of greek myths. But even Zeus realised he had fucked up. Like in Brave New World - people need a balance of light and dark to live.
>>140312749
Yes, actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VnLY_iQxGU
>>140287114
>He's brought about a world everyone dreams of
*citation needed*
>>140287114
>>140291324
To add on to this anon, you can compare Griffith more to Friend from 20th Century Boys rather than Veidt. He's only acting upon his own selfish desire to rule an ideal kingdom, not because it's objectively the right thing to do. In TCB, Friendruled over the world, killed his old classmates, and fucked the MC's sister just to get back at them for being excluded in their super secret club during childhood. This is pretty much Griffith.
