>>135934122 >SSJ4 >Alright, so this new form will be tapping into the origins of the series, back to the monkey tails saiyans used to have, to combine the power of the oozaru with super saiyan! This has the potential to backfire at first, as losing your control as an oozaru is easy, but once dominated it gives you awesome power, as well as a more primitive look to reflect this return to their origins!
>SSJGODSSJ >Ok, so the saiyans get together. >Yeah. >And they all pass their energy into one of them. >Like that's something special that's not ever been done before. >And this turns him into god because why not. >Also this is somehow public knowledge despite not ever being mentioned before while everyone had their asses whooped by whatever villain and people even doubting normal super saiyans existed before Namek. >Oh and they just look red or blue. >Fuck actually designing a new form. >Genius.
While I don't agree with the sudden circlejerk of SSJ4 and general GT shit around here as of late, I absolutely agree that the reason behind SSJ4 existing is superior to the god transformation.
I personally would have been happy if the original god form had a proper reason for existing outside of "happy good guy teamwork power up." It felt forced and unimaginative. I would have liked it if it were less of a "legend" status and more of a traditional "we went further beyond" kind of ascension. You know, with the help of a god, and possibly Kyoji
Given all the kaio-ken jokes, I think it actually would have been alright if they went ahead and used the technique as some sort of explanation for Goku to tap into and feel god ki, given how he's the only mortal character on record to have ever used it at this point. I would have accepted anything over what we got.
>>135942973 The design, at least to me, is over the top and unlike any previous transformation of the race. The "ape-like" features are nothing more than pink/red body hair and eye liner. I like the concept, but the design just screams "lol so cool" every time I see it, and that seems to be the recurring statement of everyone I know who likes it. I don't particularly like god form, but I at least prefer it to ssj4.
>>135943247 It always looked fitting to me because through the whole series the fact that they were even saiyans was only acknowledged through the ssj transformation the tails and the ape form was completely discarded for whatever reason
Hell they could've just wish their tails back and I will never understand why vegeta never did You'd think losing his tail would set him the fuck off
The form was attained through controlling the oozaru form and reverting back with that power right it made sense for them to be monkey like they could've taken it further but it was to appeal to kids I guess it's still fine thematically imo
>>135945683 That excuse doesn't work in this case, because SSJ God is literally just the kaioken. Having the kaioken be just Goku in red was ok because it was the very first power up and it was impactful when no one could transform and it was wierd as fuck. Havin SSJ be just blonde hair was ok because it was more noticeable and emblematic than the kaioken. SSJ2 was just the next step, where the explanation was more like a supercharged SSJ. SSJ3 was kind of stupid in theory, but at least it made and effort to make you realize the change was noticeable, that it was the next step in evolution.
SSJ God is like if Toriyama had strolled into the studio and said "Alright guys, just make him red, no one will notice I didn't even think about this". So no, you shut the fuck up, even if you worded the rest worse it's obvious why SSJ God is lazy and badly done. Because that is literally what it is. A color slapped on them, nothing else. Not even fucking spiky hair, or any way to make it recognizable.
>>135943247 This. SSJ4 was an amazing concept in theory, executed horribly. God is practically the opposite, as I actually love Super Saiyan Blue's design (not SSJG though), but its background is bullshit.
>>135945683 Also this. The series has always been about stupid fucking transformations, combined with Toriyama's forgetfulness. >still irked we never saw Gotenks go SSJ2 or Vegeta go SSJ3, even if for a moment.
The reason Super Saiyan God is the way it is is because, according to Toriyama, gods transcend things like muscle mass and shit. That's why Bills is a skinny purple cat. Muscles mean nothing to a god. Getting bigger or buffer wouldn't add anything to them, so when Goku becomes a god, his muscle mass decreases due to how unnecessary it is.
I still don't get why Old Kai knew about SSJ4 when he was probably sealed before the Saiyan race even existed. Then he pulls it out of Goku's ass and calls it Super Saiyan 4 even though it's not really an advancement of SSJ3. And the clothes. Why does Vegeta change gloves?
>>135943720 >>135934122 I really liked the rational behind SSJ4. They were bringing the primal power of oozaru form and condensing it. The one thing that DBZ never explored was the oozaru form after the introductions.
I think the people's backlash is because its not toriyama, and some sort of weird backlash brought upon by the cool design. People say its "edgy" or something along the lines, but they forget that the entire super saiyan is the edge mode. The SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Gohan were the pinnacle in DBZ. In my opinion the SSJ4 put the saiyans in a more natural form similar to Gohans mystic training form. Thats just my opinion ofcourse.
>>135949252 >but they forget that the entire super saiyan is the edge mode. This 100x
I don't understand why they decided to have Goku be so lax when Frieza returned considering he was the worst enemy he faced as heres was just pure evil and considering the rage and anger Frieza caused I don't know why he wasn't angrier when he returned and threatened his family and planet again
>>135934122 Are we taking into account the different base power levels of a character?
Because base GT Kid Goku was shitting over a guy whose base form was stronger than Buu. And even when Rildo went into his true form and boosted his power he was a little more than a match for base kid Goku.
>>135949621 GT timeline is where Goku/Gohan/Vegeta didn't stop training. Yes Gohan continued his training. Remember, Goku trained with Uub all those times hardly seeing his family so he's gained quite a bit of boost in that.
>>135952454 That actually bothers me the most. Its continued usage by shitty fans has made it even worse than it is, almost as bad as that ssj5 pink-skinned silverback niggorilla bullshit from years ago.
>>135958823 DBM is fanfiction at its worst. I'm not saying that the effort put into it isn't worth acknowledging. In fact, it's downright impressive how dedicated they are. That said, it's nothing but powerlevel circlejerks and "what if" scenarios for characters that otherwise shouldn't reappear or interact. They go even further by simply headcannoning fan favorites to the top, throwing out power ups and unconfirmed interpretations of character abilities. It gets especially bad around the Broly shit and after, as if anything about that needs explaining.
>>135958894 If they brought him back, someone would need to sit down with ol' Tory and remind him just who the fuck he is. Then promptly shoot him with a laser beam through the chest.
>>135959169 Besides Broli, can you explain >it's nothing but powerlevel circlejerks And also > "what if" scenarios for characters that otherwise shouldn't reappear or interact Why is that bad? That's the entire premise of the series. It's like saying the Android arc was bad because it created robots that otherwise would never become as powerful as they were. Hell, they kept Gohan as Ultimate. GT nor Super has done that. They pander to all fans, not just Goku/Vegeta fans like GT and Super. I'm not trying to imply Multiverse is superior or official in any way, I'm just not sure I understand your complaints. Its basically DB Heroes with a plot and less exaggerated power ups.
>>135959143 Wasn't it said Vegito was more powerful since some shit where Goku had to lower his lever to match Vegetas when going Gogeta, but with Vegito it's just them at their strongest multiplied. Either way, Gogeta sucks.
>>135959531 >>135959446 Yea, Potara is a more effective/efficient fusion since you always come up with the added power. Dance requires matching power to that of a lower level person, else it fucks up. In any case, the GT Gogeta would still win over Z Vegitto simply because the base form of both Goku/Vegeta are that much stronger in GT. I believe the base Goku in GT is as strong as Buu/SSJ3.
>>135934122 >Which Super Saiyan form is strongest, and why is it SSJ4? Actually, it's probably SSJG. SSJ4 is, in terms of power, just yet another advancement down the line. SSJG is on an entirely different line, literally divine, to the point where normal ki fags can't even sense God ki.
>GT was a collective bag of fecal matter I highly doubt it's any worse than super, given how much QUALITY we got. Hell, it's anime original and still half of the show feels like filler.
Nevertheless, I prefer the design of SSJ4 over SSJG.
>>135959856 >Nevertheless, I prefer the design of SSJ4 over SSJG. Well one is actually a new design and the other is just a recolor. I think both look like shit personally. Only thing they did right was bringing back the tail for SSJ4.
>>135959856 Supreme Kai's ki can't be sensed either. That doesn't mean they're invincible. God ki is just another type of ki. Buu killed some of the Kais, if you remember that.
Also, if you remember when Goku first became a super saiyan and compare that to the end of Z Goku's super saiyan. The power level difference is very clear. Just because they have SSJG, doesn't make him immune to attacks or fatigue or mortality. Now if Super's SSJG Goku had 5 years of training and then fought the GT's Goku, SSJG would win. God ki boosts some natural powers, but the training is still the key. A new SSJG won't be a match for GT Goku given the 5 years of constant fighting/training Goku did with Uub.
>>135940160 >>SSJ4 >>Alright, so this new form will be tapping into the origins of the series, back to the monkey tails saiyans used to have, to combine the power of the oozaru with super saiyan! This has the potential to backfire at first, as losing your control as an oozaru is easy, but once dominated it gives you awesome power, as well as a more primitive look to reflect this return to their origins!
>Also he always reverts to child form later, also he gets magical pants and boots. also when he reverts his clothes grow back.
>>135934122 I don't like SSJ4 because it doesn't look at all like a super saiyan form. Why even call it a super saiyan? Just call it Pure Oozaru or some shit.
I'll admit I have a soft spot for the SSJ god forms though because It allows Goku to kick ass, be strong and still look like Goku. If you showed me a super saiyan 4 with no context my first guess would not be "Oh that's Goku". Then again, my enjoyment of Dragonball has to do with more "Is the character able to be both strong AND somewhat lighthearted which SSJ4 and SSJ3 kinda don't do.
>>135949539 Because Goku's not an "angry vengeful" guy. Even when he's facing someone evil he's usually got a calm lighthearted demeanor. Even when Goku's originally fighting Freeza he was enjoying himself until shit got to real and people he cared about started dying. Goku loves a fight, and even he's fighting the most evil person alive, he's gonna take some enjoyment out of the challenge.
>>135959398 The entire premise of DBM is powerlevel shenanigans. It's done exclusively in the commonly used 1v1 tournament scenario that most writers use to pander to fans that want to watch characters duke it out to prove which ones are stronger than others. This idea alone isn't the problem. The problem lies in the fact that this is done with previously established, popular fan characters that have been subject to this admittedly obnoxious debate cycle for well over a decade.
Also, about this >"what if" scenarios >the entire premise of the series >like saying the Android arc was bad because it created robots that otherwise would never become as powerful as they were
Not sure how this works here, seeing as all of fiction is essentially "what if this happened" storytelling. The "what if" present at the original time of writing is the story itself. What transpires is simply that. There's nothing more to it. The "what if" being explored in DBM and everything else is the hypothetical interaction of preexisting characters from the franchise fighting in a 1v1 scenario to prove who is objectively stronger. Your comparison seems to be completely unrelated, as we're talking about entirely different concepts.
Like I said, I'm not saying DBM itself is bad. It's really fucking impressive to see how long it's been going on for, not to mention the amount of effort that's been put into it. That said, the material it deals with is the worst thing this fanbase has to offer. Powerlevel-centric writing, specifically about two characters fighting, has a tendency to spark some of the most vile and pathetic shit you can find. It's why I mentioned Broly right off the bat, because we've all seen that shit, and it's the greatest example of powerlevel pandering in DBM. They've made cool stuff, I'll give them that, but these fights are what sparked DBM, and they are ultimately what it is at its core.
>>135937742 The hair of a saiyan is like a limb, it doesn't grow normally like human hair. I think SS3 doing that was cool, and it's reminiscent of that buffed Super Saiyan 1 form that grew your muscles but made you slow, SS3 being a boost to all your power but sapping stamina quickly.
>>135963032 Yeah, it's tough not to come across as a dick around here all the time. I really do respect the guys who make it, as they genuinely care about what they do. It's paid off for the most part, as it's certainly far more inventive than typical fanfiction. I'm glad you and others enjoy it. I just can't get behind it due to the premise itself.
>>135964313 I'm one of the guys around these parts not completely hating the last two movies, so I'm looking forward to seeing what they bring to the table. New characters are involved, which is definitely a good thing and brings a fresh sense of adventure. We're finally seeing that new guy Beerus mentioned in action, and we're presumably getting some strongest equivalents from an entirely separate universe, meaning we're definitely in for some new shit.
To top it all off, we're getting a new frieza-buddy as well as another top-tier saiyan fighter, one of the tiny-tot variety from a different world. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious to see what their differences are. I just hope the anime can keep up with decent animation this time around.
Finally, Piccolo is in. That's always a good thing.
>>135964641 It's good to see I'm not alone, I very much enjoyed both movies as well. I'm curious to see how the arc will play out, if anything will interrupt the tournament and where it will go from there. How do ya feel about Gohan being left out? And do you think Piccolo will receive an actual "power up" or just be stronger through training?
>>135964127 Super saiyan 3 to me was always just the saiyan equivelent of 100% Freeza. Like it's super strong but because of the energy it takes to maintain you're almost better off just sticking to 1 or 2.
>>135964773 Once again, one of the few not hating Gohan around here. Disappointed to see he's still just a shitty jobber now, but not at all surprised.
I sincerely hope that Piccolo is simply stronger now through training. One point I'd like to make is that he's definitely been training since Cell's defeat, and while that didn't put him anywhere near close enough to fight Buu, it's certainly something we never got to explore. He's obviously been training since Buu went down, too, so I expect we'll at least see him far beyond what he was during the Android saga. Definitely gonna job for Goku n' Geets, but should be fun to see him relevant again.
>>135965027 I'm also excited for Piccolo. I think the best thing is that, even if Piccolo isn't as strong as the others, He's still strong. Yamcha's always been the weakest but I can't say I didn't enjoy any of his World Tournament fights. Hell, even Chaozu's fight was really good and he's the least relevant character in the whole manga.
>>135965371 Sorry, but Yamcha never won my heart. Outside of his first appearance, he's pretty much always been a running gag.
See, Krillin jokes are almost always made by people that only watched DBZ and nothing else, yet he's definitely one of the best characters in the series and his actions reflect this. Piccolo remains badass and relevant for most of the run from his initial appearance onward, creating new techniques and getting some pretty cool fights along the way.
Then there's Yamcha, the bandit with no social skills that tried his damn hardest to get good, but ultimately fell short at every turn. The guy could never catch a break and likely never will. As if being the crew's original jobber bitch wasn't enough, he's never won an actual fight, died first to the Saiyans by the hands of a cabbage patch kid, and lost his girlfriend to the guy that came to his planet to kill everyone. Yamcha is a good guy and a great friend, no doubt about that. He is not, however, a worthy adversary.
Tenshinhan, on the other hand, is a total fucking badass that deserves to resurface. He and/or Krillin need to put in some god damn effort and unlock Super Human already. Too bad they'll never be anything more than cheerleaders ever again.
>>135966785 XXI? Best possible move. They realized just how polarizing Vegito was for their community, so they made a choice and removed him for the time being. I can absolutely respect that decision, as he's pretty much every complaint I made tied up in one convenient little package. If they bring him back, fine. I'm cool with him being taken out, though.
As for the flash backs and such, they're mostly dancing somewhere between above average to mediocre. Pretty sure most people agree there.
XXI himself isn't much of a character at this point, is he? Has he even done much outside of flip off all the Vegito fans?
To be honest, all the original characters thus far have been alright at best. At least a few have offered some interesting new things to the table. The super tech guys with the energy beams and swords seem to be quite strong, and it's interesting to see them getting by, considering how they're entirely dependent on their technological lead to succeed.
>>135967371 I think it's less GT apologists, and more so that DBS isn't much better than Super like it was supposed to be.
GT ain't great. In fact, I'd say it's bad. But there's still alot of things it's doing better than DBS, and Superfriends can't stand the idea of people not accepting that Super isn't breaking new models, and isn't just pushing a tired series over the hill again.
You call me when Goku and now HIS BEST BATTLE BUDDY, VEGETA aren't the only ones to do anything in the series, eh?
>>135942792 >I personally would have been happy if the original god form had a proper reason for existing outside of "happy good guy teamwork power up." It felt forced and unimaginative It doesn't help that it's the same shit they pulled off in the goddamn Brolly movie, but this time they called it a super form.
The nature of it is more of an asspull than SSJ4 is, honestly. It sure is great that an unborn fetus could help in an ancient ritual to power up Saiyans to the level of gods? Even for DBZ, this is fucking nuts
>>135962536 >Even when Goku's originally fighting Freeza he was enjoying himself until shit got to real and people he cared about started dying. Yeah, and then after Krillin died, he was pretty dedicated to the killing Freeza thing until he literally got bored of smacking him around.
>>135964773 I'm glad they left Gohan out, and I say this as someone who's been a fan of him since Toonami. If they're just going to have him get beaten up, I'd rather he just not be there. I'm honestly expecting him to be a getting beaten up by some villain when they come back to push the story along. He's the new Yamcha, and my heart is broken.
I'm glad Piccolo is there, but I don't have enough faith in this series to think that he's there fore anything other than jobbing. Because if he doesn't lose, that means that Vegeta or Nipples is going to have to lose. Nipples isn't going to lose, because weh ave to have the dumb looking character be strong, and they already announced that they wouldn't be jobbing Vegeta anymore.
So unless Vegeta is shown to be stronger and somehow gets tricked out of his win, it's up to Buu and Piccolo to take the fall.
>>135969466 Let's face it. Goku is not a killer. Has he killed before, or at least thought he killed someone? Certainly, but he likely thinks little or nothing of it. Does he go out of his way to kill? Absolutely not, and it's definitely a problem he's had over the years.
In the case of Frieza, he initially fought with the intent to kill, driven by rage and the desire for revenge. As the fight went on, his old senses steadily came back. Even with his anger still present, he felt no reason to continue, as it would only contribute to more mindless violence. He likes to fight worthy opponents, and Frieza, at that moment, was anything but.
Like, holy shit. Goku just doesn't know when to end the fight. Even when he does, he just leaves them sitting there, fully capable of getting back up and fucking shit up again. Just look at
>Piccolo >Vegeta >Frieza >Cell >Buu >Frieza AGAIN
I mean, those are the major occurrences. Most of these end up backfiring hardcore. Piccolo was a potential threat that paid off. Vegeta killed several of his friends and countless other races, but they're buddies now so whatever. Frieza was the biggest tyrant in the galaxy and killed his best friend in cold blood. Goku left him with his own sparing energy, but at least he ended up "finishing" him off. Cell can be disputed, as he couldn't beat him on his own, but christ, the man left the world's most dangerous villain for his prepubescent son to deal with. Buu kills everyone. Frieza has him shot like a bitch, then also kills everyone.
>>135969165 For me it feels like both of them suffer from bad writing but on the opposite ends of the spectrum. GT takes itself too seriously. Super doesn't take itself seriously enough. And honestly I prefer a Dragonball series that doesn't take itself as seriously. The problem is Toei isn't putting have the effort into it as GT because it seems even the ANIMATORS and WRITERS are taking it seriously. Like I honestly don't mind RoF but that shit works best as a movie or at MOST a 3-4 episode filler That just has cool fights and Freeza and Goku fight again. The fact that they're dragging it out is baffling.
>>135970102 Yeah. Goku's not a bleeding heart or anything but if you're a strong opponent he doesn't wanna just kill you unless you're a threat that NEEDS to be stopped immediately, Like Demon King Piccolo, Freeza and Cell. If Goku can he'll keep you alive so he can get those rematches.
They still like Super Saiyan 4. They give it to Broly and Gohan.
But Super Saiyan God is the stronger form. In the thing that actually matters, Dragon Ball Heroes, God forms and characters are far stronger than Super Saiyan 4. And while Gohan and Broly get Super Saiyan 4, the most important characters of Heroes, the avatars, are going for God.
>>135972232 It's in the Monkey Trouble Baby Vegeta Rumble, Super Saiyan 4 Goku gets his ass kicked when a building falls on him, then the other Saiyans have to heal him by holding hands and sharing Ki. Pretty sure that's how it went down.
He also got beaten out of Super Saiyan 4 by that electric Shenron thing. You know, the one beaten by rain?
Or not exactly dumb. Selfish is a better word. Goku wants strong opponents to fight and is too confident in his own power to believe that maybe keeping an evil bastard alive for better training is endangering literally everyone on Earth.
>>135972162 Can I just say Super saiyan 2 is the most unnecessary distinction? When Gohan beat cell I wasn't really thinking "Gohan's a super saiyan 2/He's some ultra super saiyan!" and just thought it was Gohan himself pulling out the full potential of the super saiyan form. Like everyone was trying to surpass super saiyan and Gohan just stayed super saiyan and kept unleashed his natural potential. BUT NOPE. Turns out it's a separate form and the only way to tell if someone's in this form is just lightning and SLIGHTLY spikier hair. I dunno. It just seems like an unnecessary form to distinguish. I'm not at all surprised Toriyama forgot it.
>>135972575 I don't think it was given the name of Super Saiyan 2 until it showed up in the Buu Saga. And people were preoccupied with watching this ten year old brutally tear apart Cell like it was nothing to give it a name.
The problem with SS2 is that after Cell Saga Gohan, the people that transformed didn't have a distinctive enough look. Vegeta's hair didn't change at all, Gohan got a longer bang and more of Goku's hair stuck up. Compared to the very drastic hair style change in the Cell Saga, it's just harder to differentiate.
>>135945916 >and it was impactful when no one could transform and it was weird as fuck Except when Vegeta transformed 2 seconds later. Kaio Ken's not a transformation btw. And I would rather have Super Saiyan God than Super Saiyan 4. It would be too bland for there to be "lol ye bruh just another super say'n level no big deal". It's refreshing that they have a different kind of transformation, not just the same copy paste bullshit. The only redeeming factor about SSJ4 was its design
>>135972874 I always thought that was the thing about SS2. That you had to be really fucking angry to achieve it. Angrier than the standard SS. Honestly, I kinda wish that they'd kept that. There's no reason not to use SS2 over SS as it's a flat upgrade, no matter what bullshit Toriyama spews about it having worse energy consumption. The whole point about SS2 was that it was a perfect improvement. But, if it had the flaw of only being accessible when you're angry, it'd make more sense for Super Saiyan to be used over it.
Also, Vegeta got it legit at some point, he was using it in the fight with Kid Buu on the Kai planet.
You are stupid and not even watching. Goku at that state cannot even blast single one ki blast because he has no ki stated by goku and the old kai. goku ssj 4 at full power/ healthy over powered by huge gap the golden monkey. you annoy me by being not watching. I don't need to even check the episode to say you're ultimately wrong you probably not even watching. You annoyed me suit yourself
>>135973036 He was continuosly being punched by golden monkey with no ki all at do you even watching. As stated in the anime super baby vegeta 2 is the strongest ki ever. so not even beerus or whis can dream to defeat super baby vegeta 2.
>>135966785 XXI is obviously the main villain, since he has shenron from his world enslaved. I doubt he's Cell, as he wouldn't have to ask how to beat Android 18. from the looks of his scales though, he's definitely an original design, as that doesn't match toriyama's style at all. My guess is that it's an existing villain with a new form. He desperately wants to hide his true power, which suggests that his ordinary self is enough to freak most of the fighters out. He can't be some transformed namek either, as he has too many fingers for that. We've also seen almost all of the movie villains, except for Turles (I think) the monster from world's strongest, Garlic and Slug. So it's possible it'll be garlic, since his plot relates to Shenron, and he already transforms. His true self seems to have glowing circular eyes though, and that's the kicker. Is he another dragon? A fallen one perhaps? Maybe he's an oni?
Of course, a lot of people think he's just another form of Cell, since his name is XXI, but why wouldn't cell absorb 18 then?
>>135973081 I always thought Super saiyan form was just...once you do it once you know how to do it whenever you want. So even though Vegeta cheated to become a super saiyan 2, now that he's done it he can access it whenever he wants.
>>135974283 That is true just google the interview is around october and november 2015. I'm done here. You're just using your imagination as source and i'm not kind enough now to waste my time now, m8.
>>135974283 You need to look yourself in the mirror before talking. Defeated by building? not even monkey baby use building to harm goku. Your imagination running so wild and random prolly to annoy people.
>>135974309 If that was the case, Gohan'd still be able to easily access Super Saiyan 2 despite being a little bit out of practice. But he could only transform using the anger he had from Videl getting fucked up.
Unless he was SS2 during the fight with Dabura and his attack on the cocoon, but that's a whole different debate.
>>135974413 >>135974483 The interview was poorly translated. Super is not a prequel to GT. Super Saiyan 4 Goku was fucked up pretty bad when a building fell on him in GT. Might have been in the Shadow Dragon fights, but it happened.
>>135974697 I kinda hope we don't. It's unnecessary and to be completely honest, it's a shitty form for any sort of drawn out battle. Trunks is the only one to do the Buff Super Saiyan and Goku and Gotenks had Super Saiyan 3. It works for Gotenks because his transformation is so short anyway, and it works for Goku as a storytelling device for why he has no more time on earth and why he has no more energy for the final kid Buu fight. I dunno. I don't feel like Vegeta really needs a SSJ3 form.
>>135964028 He was literally making up powers and attacks nobody seen before like Gotenks, only 10x better. Jesus I remember watching Mystic Gohan, thinking "they can't go beyond that" Then Buutenks wrecks him, and Buuhan was supposed to be the pinnacle. Then this flamboyant fucker Vegito emerges and powerlevels go to hell entirely.
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