tell me about emonzaemon why does he wears the mask?
>>134629774
It's so you can understand the rest of the monogatari series.
He was born in it. Moulded by it.
>>134629774
Why are people posting Katanagatari again? Don't get me wrong I love the show but still.
Also best girl won.
>>134630294
Neither Zanki nor Konayuki won shit.
>>134630294
>best girl won
no anon,best girl died.
>>134630294
>best girl won
she didn't win shit
>>134629774
Wasn't it related to how Birdman and his clan wiped out emonzaemon's clan a long time ago?
the archive is filled with threads... oh
;_;
Because his face was stolen.
and before you ask, you can only take it off when he's dead
>>134629774
'Cause someone took his faceoff
TOGAME! TOGAME! ...Togame...
Houou stole it.
So yeah his face is Houou's face.
>>134631976
Desustorage faggot.
>>134630294
Because it is secretlybetter than Bakemonogatari.
>>134632966
I dunno if I'd go that far. It had some pretty infuriating shortcomings. The highs were high and the lows were low. Bakemonogatari is pretty consistent in it's quality.
>>134630947
Birdman is wearing Emonzaemon's face.
>>134633029
>Consistent on being garbage harem
Yeah you said it.
>>134633029
Except Araragi is a boring-ass character althroughout.
Shichika starts out rather flat and boring, and eventually develops his own sensibilities. The beauty of it is when the "best girl" dies he essentially transforms into a person and not the "tool" he was brought up to become.
>>134633082
Couldn't have said it better myself. Meme would serve as a way more interesting lead.
>>134632865
She ain't coming back. She died loveless and childless, without passing on her genes.
Why did Togame have to go, guys?
>>134630294
>Also best girl won.
Only one that got lucky in the end.
>>134629956
Would he die if you pulled it off?
>>134633237
How could he not save her?
>>134633237
Because she couldn't let go.
Because Ho-oh stole his face.
>>134629774
If I take off that mask, will you die?
![[ANE] Katanagatari - Ep11 [BDRip 720p x264 FLAC].mkv_snapshot_12.44_[2015.09.18_17.43.36].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/tVCnZgX.jpg "[ANE] Katanagatari - Ep11 [BDRip 720p x264 FLAC].mkv_snapshot_12.44_[2015.09.18_17.43.36].jpg")
>>134635494
O T P
T
P
>>134636979Selfcest
YES.
>>134635494
Crashing this ninja clan... with no survivors!
>>134630757
This desu.
>>134630757
Tru dat.
>>134633170
I can't stand Araragi because he's a shitty hypocrite, but he's not boring.
>>134633237
Because she was too best for this imperfect world.
Well congratulations, you got yourself torn to pieces!
>>134633237
She was the bad guy and you're an idiot for sympathizing with her just because she was cute and a protagonist.
>>134640833
But being cute is all that's needed. She didn't have to die.
>>134633237
So Shichika could pump his genes into best girl.
>>134640857
She actually did unless you wanted there to be a bad end.
>>134629774
Because he was just fucking your waifu and he is ashamed because of how ugly she was.
>>134640973
lol epic
>>134630294
Well, I know for a fact Edinburgh Uni Anime society just finished watching it.
>>134629774
>Togame dead
>Shichika soulless
>shogunate still in power
>nee-chan dead
>Penguin dead
>bandit girl dead
>>134641337
A uni anime club? why would they matter; are they a big deal or something?
>>134641457
I dunno, I've just had weird experiences where a disproportionate amount of people from Edinburgh post here.
>>134641444
>>Shichika soulless
Did you see the ending? He moved on pretty well for having his sister and Togame.
>>134641567
He didn't move on, he was entirely emotionally dead.
>>134633370
It would be extremely painful.
Reposting: does pic related mean thatthe shrine where Togame got shot was the same one from Monogatari?
>>134641605
He was joking with Hitei at the end and making a map of the Japan. What made you think he was emotionally dead? Him using his catchphrase?
>>134641714
Yeah desu.
He did not seem happy. Maybe that was just because was with WORSTEST GIRL.
>>134640934
But anon, we got the bad end.
>>134641786
Don't talk shit 'bout best girl. She's better than a manipulative murderer.
Anyway him using his catchphase at the end was just a character arc. It's writing 101 acknowledge the beginning at the end; it also means he's come to terms with everything.
>>134641820
Would Shichika getting murdered and everything be for naught be your idea of a good end, anon.
>>134642075
Yes. But if Togame had lived it all wouldn't of been for naught.
>>134642075
>implying Togame wasn't lying so that Shichika wouldn't mourn her
>>134642210
>headcanon
>>134641922
I really didn't get that impression.
Or at least, that Shichika had undergone any positive growth.
>>134641922
> She's better than a manipulative murderer
She really wasn't, wasn't it pointed out by Shichika that Hitei and Togame were really similar, and that's why he didn't really want to kill her in the end? Because she was just doing exactly what Togame would have in that situation?
>>134642242
>not being able to into subtlety
>>134642265
I thought the only reason he didn't kill her was because Hitei liked Togame but it's been a few years since I watched it.
>>134642293
You didn't understand Togame's character because killing Shichika was part of her motivation.
>>134641922
I was under the impression that him using his catchphrase was a subtle way of informing the audience that he reverted back to his ways before he met Togame.
>>134642431
You didn't understand Togame's character if you don't get that a) she loved him b) she was deceptive and c) she wanted him not to mourn her
>>134642445
He used the catchphase in every episode that doesn't make sense. Or are you talking about when he was trying to get killed?
>>134642445
He also used that "what a hassle" line from earlier too.
>>134642511
Her character was not that she loved him. Do you know what a character is?
>>134642357
That was partly it, but not entirely.
I think it was more just him confirming that Hitei and Togame, however warped, were kind of friends, or at least, as much as you could possibly be friends when you're that fucked up.
>>134642578
She loved Shichika but through her screwed up mindset, she thought she'd have to kill him anyway.
>>134642578
That's what I meant by his catchphrase. He used it so often it essentially was one until he met Togame, at which point he changed it. I feel like him using his old catchphrase is an indication of him becoming emotionally dead like he was before the story began.
>>134642578
It was a substantial element to her character.
She explicitly states in her death scene that she loved him.
>>134629774
Because he is a waifu killing asshole.
>>134642445
I don't think so, the original point of the catchphrase was to make him sound cool according to Togame, so he just continued to use it as a connection to her.
>>134642641
Y'see that's why I think she was lying about killing him.
It just doesn't make much practical sense. Plus, what about those scenes where she asked him whether he would stay with her after the quest?
It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you either go "WELP, SHE MUSTA JUST BEEN MAD" or accept she wasn't being truthful about killing him in the first place.
>>134642669
Feeling for someone does not make up her character.
>>134642664
But he uses the catchphase Togame gave him at the end signifying he moved on or at least accepted it.
>>134642664
It was more just him growing as a person, despite having to use 'cool' moves and catchphrases to take down enemies like Togame wanted, he was still kind of lazy, I think him using both catchphrases in the end was just him coming to terms with himself after his journey and being more balanced for it.
>>134642698
;_;
I don't think her loving him had anything to do with whether or not she'd have killed him at the end.
You can debate things all you want but at the end of the day there's no proof that she was lying so you just have to accept what she said as fact.
>>134642786
Yes it does, it effects her reasoning and actions within the story.
>>134642770
She wouldn't forgive him for being the son of the dude who killed he father. Those scenes she explicitly states are deception to both her and him. His father set her on her path of revenge and when that's all you live for it makes sense to want to kill the guys only living son even if you love him.
>>134642847
God I hated him, watching him die in such a horrific manner was the highlight of the series for me.
>>134630757
>>134642892
If it were a deception towards Shichika, I could get it but when you start saying she was lying to herself that just seems like a rationalisation. That or they did a horrible job at conveying the massive amount of cognitive dissonance and psychosis that that would have entailed.
>>134643016
Nigga she explains it in the episode. Her emotions were chess pieces or some shit.
>>134642770
I think her asking about what he would do after his quest was A) probing for answers as to what his plans were due to her scheming shit and/or B) It was her being weak and indulging in a fantasy where they could travel together without worry.
> It just doesn't make much practical sense
Togame was basically insane, it doesn't really need to. But seriously, the general idea was that she planned to kill him from the start, and over the course of the series she grew to genuinely love him, but because of how messed up and extremely single minded in her ambition she was, she basically ended up manipulating 'herself' too, as she said. In the end, her dying was the best outcome she could wish for, that's why she was happy when she died, even though she didn't get what she thought she wanted.
Besides, at that point she really had no reason to lie to Shichika about loving him, if all she wanted was for him not to mourn her, she shouldn't have said "Is it okay if I fall in love with you?" she would have just left it at the whole "I was using you the whole time" line.
>>134642917
Fuck off and die.
>>134643078
This
>>134643074
>or some shit
See, you don't even understand it.
Why are so ready to accept she was lying to not only Shichika but also herself right throughout the series, despite appearing completely sincere throughout, but baulk at the idea she was actually sincere throughout the series and she was just lying during her death scene to spare Shichika's feelings?
>>134641610
4 u
![[Elysium]Katanagatari.EP10(BD.720p.FLAC)[BAAFB5CE].mkv_snapshot_23.12_[2015.01.22_18.33.54].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/WLn7iKF.jpg "[Elysium]Katanagatari.EP10(BD.720p.FLAC)[BAAFB5CE].mkv_snapshot_23.12_[2015.01.22_18.33.54].jpg")
>>134641444
>Shichika soulless
I'd give my soul for a chance of hitting pic related 2bh.
>>134643215
I was being facetious and besides I'm not going to qoute the fucking episode for you. She said her emotions were pawns to be used so she could more effectively manipulate him.
![NKttC[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/qtcT69W.jpg "NKttC[1].jpg")
>>134639845
This show was a massacre of best girls.
I can only remember two of them living. Maybe three if you count Yoda.
>>134641444
>Deviant blades meant to take down Shogunate
>So that Japan wouldn't get raped by the West in the nineteenth century
>It didn't work
FEELS
>>134643078
>A) probing for answers as to what his plans were due to her scheming shit and/or B) It was her being weak and indulging in a fantasy where they could travel together without worry
If that were the case, they made absolutely no attempt to convey that. It's not hard to do that, minimal foreshadowing. Hell, it probably would have been more interesting and definitely more tense than what they actually showed.
>Togame was basically insane
That's what gets me, they didn't do a BAD job of conveying this, they simply made no effort to do so.
I don't deny that originally she probably might have considered killing him after the mission, but there just isn't any reason to think this is still the case as she actually falls in love with him.
It really doesn't make sense if Togame was genuinely planning to kill him right up until she was shot, especially with the Shogi episode.
Would you?
>>134643333
>She said her emotions were pawns to be used so she could more effectively manipulate him.
Yeah, and I don't understand why you think she was telling him the truth in that instance.
If she wasn't trying to spare his feelings, either out of love or to stop him going kill crazy why tell him at all?
>>134643554
Fuck no, probably some old Indian man IRL.
>>134643078
I dunno, maybe it's just a shit translation, saying something like "I HAD ORIGINALLY (i.e. before episode one) planned to kill you, but I'm glad it didn't come to that".
That also fits.
>>134643821
The ninja in the first episode already hinted that Togame was a cold hearted monster.
>>134643659
As >>134643078 said why would she say she loved him if she was trying to spare his feelings? It was never stated that she was lying and can't be proven so that usually (in fiction) means it's the truth.
>>134630757
>best girl died
Stop this meme, hime survived and lived together with Shichika.
>>134633170
No, the most beautiful thing is he choosing the best girl in the end.
>>134641567
Also Hitei was there with him, so he was fine.
>>134643983
In his opinion.
And even then, I'm not denying that she may have been PRIOR TO THE SERIES. I just don't feel she was planning to kill Shichika up until the moment of the death.
>>134644022
Because she couldn't bear to simply destroy him emotionally? She still completely undermines this by saying that feeling was itself was only a tool to her.
Additionally, the best lies are half truths. Shichika knowns Togame's loves him, she had to provide a reasonable explanation as why this wasn't valid. Hence: "it was just a pawn, lol".
> It was never stated that she was lying and can't be proven
But it was never stated she was telling the truth, and there isn't even really possible to argue so, let prove anything, based off the series.
Togame is known as an devious character, is known to genuinely love Shichika and is known to want him to move on and not seek revenge for her death. As such, it seems entirely plausible that she would lie to Shichika about killing him to ensure he didn't take revenge out of concern for his safety, and possibly the safety of anyone in his way.
>usually (in fiction) means it's the truth
Nope
>>134643549
> they simply made no effort to do so.
It was made pretty obvious by that point in the series + her dying speech exactly how screwed up she was and how she saw things.
> But there just isn't any reason to think this is still the case
I'm reasonably sure in her dying speech she said she was going to kill him, in her eyes she had to, regardless of her feelings, she got it in her head that she would have to kill the son of the man who killed her father, as well as tying up any theoretical loose ends after the mission.
Again, that's why she was happy when she died, she was planning to kill him up until that point, I'm not sure if she could have actually done it, but it likely would have ended with Togame either killing Shichika, herself, or both. and in this way, she didn't have to hurt him.
I think she said when she was dying that even her own feelings for Shichika became "pawns on her chessboard", in her messed up head she thought her and Shichika growing closer would mean she would be able to kill him easier because he wouldn't expect it or something like that.
>>134643983
I mean the fact that she would have gone from planning to kill him to NOT planning to kill would be a pretty clear character arc.
>>134630294
Best girlDIED.
>>134644515
>It was made pretty obvious by that point in the series + her dying speech exactly how screwed up she was and how she saw things
No it isn't. The sole thing to suggest that is her dying speech. The rest of the series is, really, entirely at odds with what she says. There is no indication, anywhere else in the series she was planning to kill Shichika.
I'm reasonably sure in her dying speech she said she was going to kill him
Yeah, and I've been saying she was lying when she said that for the last half hour.
>>134642210
>Implying Togame wasn't a complete psychopath who was obsessed with revenge thus lied all the time and to everybody, including herself, and the only moment she said the truth was when she was about to die.
>>134644515
It just seems to me to require a bigger suspension of disbelief to say that she was schizophrenic throughout the entire series than to say she was lying in dying speech to spare Shichika's feelings/stop him going kill crazy.
>>134644694
>>Implying Togame wasn't a complete psychopath who was obsessed with revenge thus lied all the time and to everybody, including herself, and the only moment she said the truth was when she was about to die.
I'm not implying it, anon, I'm stating it explicitly.
>>134644498
Why would she do all this in a round about way if her objective was to make him not mourn her why undermine that? She has no reason to lie anymore and if you dismiss this asa lie you could just as easily say her entire arc is a lie. Also I re-watched a part of it and the part where it shows her entangled by a snake is some pretty clear symbolism that she's not lying.
>>134644670
If you take the specific times her purple eye is conveyed into consideration it makes it pretty clear that she's lying to him a lot, and while it isn't a clear indication she's planning to kill him, it's certainly clear that there's a lot of information she's talking her way out of saying as well as just generally lying about.
>>134633236
>without passing on her genes
That was kind of the whole point. That one guy fucked up the timeline and history corrected for it by shitting on everyone who shouldn't exist until they effectively didn't anymore.
>>134644670
>The sole thing to suggest that is her dying speech. The rest of the series is, really entirely at odds with what she says.
That's the point. She was lying. She's crazy and a liar.
Her cursed eye was 'on' when she said she would kill him regardless of her feelings. it's basically her 'tell' for when she is being completely honest.
>>134644799
It means you didn't pay attention at all. The only thing Togame cared throughout the entire series was her revenge against her daddy's murderer. It's greater than anything, including the love she implanted to herself to make her job more effective.
>>134644803
>she has no reason to lie anymore
Yes, she does. To spare Shichika's feelings/stop him going kill crazy. That's also why she gave him an explicit order not to go kill crazy.
>if you dismiss this asa lie you could just as easily say her entire arc is a lie.
What on earth are you talking about? According to you she starts the series lying through her teeth and does not change in the slightest.
In my interpretation, she goes from perceiving Shichika purely as a tool to maturing, treating him not as a means to an end but an end in and of himself and loving him.
If she were still wanting to kill him, that would have completely destroyed any kind of character growth she had.
>entangled by a snake is some pretty clear symbolism that she's not lying
How so?
>If you take the specific times her purple eye is conveyed into consideration it makes it pretty clear that she's lying to him a lot
How so? Where was it established that purple eye=lying? That's a very fucking clunky method of conveying that, might as well have put a speech bubble behind her saying how she was going to kill him.
>a lot of information she's talking her way out of saying as well as just generally lying about
Because she was traumatised by a lot of it, as was established by the episode with the Holy Man.
>>134645164
That's head canon.
>>134645134
>That's the point. She was lying. She's crazy and a liar.
That's my problem. There's just no reason to think she was actually lying throughout the series and not in her death speech.
As in, there is nothing to support that, at all, making it far more likely she was just lying in her death speech for the reasons I've mentioned.
>>134645189
>The only thing Togame cared throughout the entire series was her revenge against her daddy's murderer
That is categorically untrue, see the Shogi episode.
> the love she implanted to herself to make her job more effective
Emotions don't work like that, anon.
>>134645405
Like I said, Togame was insane and lied to everyone, including herself, she may even hypnotize herself into thinking she loved Shichika, that's why her actions feel inconsistent throughout the story. The only truth about her was her immense hatred for Shichika's dad and thus Shichika too since the moment she was mind broke seeing her father's death.
>>134645690
Head Canon: The Post
>>134644805
>If you take the specific times her purple eye is conveyed
Her eye means nothing, it's not in the novel.
>>134646238
>novel = anime
Yeah, no.
>>134646869
It also means nothing in the anime. It appears inconsistently, so you'd have to be an idiot to think that it isn't a red herring.
>>134645134
You can't lie to a holy man that reached enlightenment.
He told Togame that if she didn't drop her path of revenge, she was gonna get a bad end, but she didn't listen to his warning and ended up getting a bad end.
>>134647645
Yeah, bitch was crazy as fuck, she deserved death.
>>134642254
He has. He basically broke all the rules Togame had imposed on him out of his own volition. Without her holding him back, he was free to make his own decisions in life.Did you not see how he took down each of the deviant blade weilders at the end?
Also Katanagatari OST >>>>> Monogatari OST
>>134644352
If I cared about the girl, or any of the girls in that show for that matter. It's nothing but a waifufest.
>>134648697
Katanagatari has some gold in its soundtrack, but Monogatari has more consistent hits as well as its own very high points.
>>134648781
Again, consistent as in "forgetable". Katanagatari's soundtrack was fantastic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtzmOliIos
When will we get a Maniwagatari animu?
>>134648825
Not my fault you have OCD and can't pay attention to a song that doesn't have electric guitar and a high tempo.
I think the thing people don't get is that you can truly and deeply love someone but still want to kill them.
>>134642917
This, honestly. I thought it was natural to dislike Pengin, until I saw the threads on /a/.
>>134649516
>>134649542
>>134649558
>>134649661
>>134649683
>>134649714
>>134649736
>>134649766
>>134649788
>>134649834
>>134649860
>>134650404
Please anon, my effort for almost two years cannot go to waste
>>134650574i admire your dedication regardless
>>134643413
You mean let us bring FREEDOM, COMMERCE, INDUSTRY, AND TECHNOLOGY.
Most of all ANIME!
>>134650404
You missed mine though ;_;
>>134648984
I just read the LN and it was pretty good. The first Kuizame was extremely creepy, the first Shirasagi was twice as infuriating as the current one, and after reading about Kyouken made her death much more sad.
>>134648697
Yeah but he didn't seem happy, is my point.
>>134649319
Yeah, because that's massively psychotic and Togame simply exhibited no signs of being psychotic.
>>134654677
Where'd you get a translated version?
>>134656940
>Constantly lying to everyone, even herself
>Obsessed with murderous revenge
>Showed no sympathy toward anyone
>Not psychotic
>>134656940
Its really not.
She was truly in love with Shichika, but at the same time her sense of filial piety and hatred for his clan compelled her to kill him since revenge was pretty much her number one reason for living - to her, NOT trying to avenge her father was inconceivable.
You don't have to hate someone to desire their death if the circumstances are right.
>>134657174
Yes, because there is simply no proof that, by the time she dies, that any of that is the case.
>>134629774
He's a little guy
>>134657302
>Its really not.
Yes, anon, it is.
> to her, NOT trying to avenge her father was inconceivable
Didn't she say the fact he killed his father rendered that whole matter void?
>>134647313
It's not really inconsistent at all, generally enough, it fits to say that it shows up when she's "scheming"
They wouldn't just throw something like that in for no reason, especially considering how they drew attention to the fact that the purple eye dissolved along with the snake, re-enforcing it as her devious/scheming ways.
You could remove the maniwani from this series and almost nothing would change. They were pretty fucking expendable and did fuck all from the very beginning aside from delivering the first sword.
>>134629774
>that mask
>不忍
Unstealthy?, unbearable?
>>134657489
Ahhh, worst girl did say he was annoying.
>>134657366
>Yes, anon, it is.
No, I literally just explained how she manages it. Plenty of people in real life have killed their loved ones while still loving them, its not as inconceivable as you make it out to be.
>Didn't she say the fact he killed his father rendered that whole matter void?
Nope, she makes it clear she still feels compelled to kill him to settle the matter definitively.
>>134657427
No maniwani means no Emonzaemon, and the penultimate deviant blade fight would be utterly different.
They were also needed to convince Nanami to leave the island.
>>134657489
Most sources claims it means "unconcealed". It could just refer the fact that he used to be a ninja but isn't anymore.
Is Emonzaemon a representation of the spirit of the revenge? Is Katanagatari as whole a rendition of the say "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"?
I've no idea.
>>134657558
>No, I literally just explained how she manages it
Yes, that's the problem.
There is nothing in the entire series to suggest this other her dying speech. If it's the case she was still wanting to kill him, and had been lying throughout the entire series then the exposition is HORRIBLY AMATEURISH in a way I just don't think Isin is capable of. Which makes me think you shouldn't take her dying speech at face value.
>Plenty of people in real life have killed their loved ones while still loving them
I'm not saying that it never happens, I'm just saying that such people are either utterly psychotic or emotionally destroyed as a result, neither of which Togame is shown to be.
>feels compelled to kill him to settle the matter definitively.
Well, again that could simply be a lie to convince Shichika that no, really I love and I know you know I love because it's been completely obvious for the entirety of the series of this point but I really, really was actually going to kill you, honest.
>>134657789
>Is Katanagatari as whole a rendition of the say "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"?
Yeah, basically.
>>134657944
> Neither of which Togame is shown to be.
Not that other anon, but Togame is shown to be an extremely devious person who's always thinking up schemes. She's lived with her ambition for so long, do you really think she wouldn't have been able to mask her trauma after that long?
>>134658167
>She's lived with her ambition for so long, do you really think she wouldn't have been able to mask her trauma after that long?
Not without it making it a shithouse story.
There is literally zero reason to think Togame was going to kill Shichika, other than when she boldfacedly told him. That is not good writing, and it clashes with the rest of the series.
Nobody turns up and explains how Nee-chan is now insane because of Akou Bita, see is SHOWN to be insane by stomping a lad's brains out because she literally saw him just being a clump of weeds.
Togame is an extreme calculating and devious person. That's why, in order to achieve her goal of making sure Shichika moved on emotionally (as proven by the fact she also ordered him to do so), she lied to him that she was still planning to kill him after the swords were collected.
Shichika said it himself, "if that's true, you would have only needed to ask me to kill myself, I would have done it". Even he knows it doesn't make sense.
>>134658167
Additionally, you can't just "mask" psychosis.
>>134658167
Furthermore furthermore, she is not shown at any point to be devious towards Shichika, other than mild tsundereism.
Post magnificent tracks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wzXxTQeq58
>>134639845
Did she get any porn?
Or Shichika's sister for that matter?
>>134641444
>Togame dead
Togame is scum
>Shichika soulless
Shichika moved on from being a sword to being a real person.
>Shogunate still in power
You can't change history it's one of the main themes.
>nee-chan dead
she deserved it
>Penguin dead
that was disgusting, yes.
>bandit girl dead
she couldn't escape fate, no matter how hard she tried.
>>134643413
It's not Japan and the enemy is not the West.
It's China and the mongol hordes.
>>134658362
> making sure Shichika moved on emotionally
By saying she loved him just before she died? Kind of invalidates that.
>>134658445
> She is not shown at any point to be devious towards Shichika
>>134657375
>>134657789
Among other things.
It's basically the story of Jing Ke, though.
>>134658682
>snake eye =lying
That's complete head canon.
>>134630294
But Meisai died.
>>134633237
It's the fruit of her own efforts.
>>134641457
I'm in the Glasgow uni one. Not really we just watch two running series and 1 episode of 4 different anime or 1 and a movie every week. Running series aren't that great because majority vote rules. Case in point OPM over Tatami Galaxy. But the screening co-ordinator has good tastes so the screenings are good overall.
This is objectively the best ED song. No contest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck2WJAyviN0
I'm still mad about episode 4
>>134658797
I never said it showed up when she was lying, but "scheming"
Makes sense, looking back on the first episode, her eye changes when she says its better to fight for love and for Shichika to fall for her.
>>134659319
>I never said it showed up when she was lying, but "scheming"
Still pretty head canon. And now you're also going to have assume that just because she was scheming that she was specifically lying about wanting to kill Shichika.
>its better to fight for love and for Shichika to fall for her.
Back then Shichika's love was really nothing more than a tool to her.
But then as the series progressed we saw how Togame put aside her focus on revenge, and begin to see Shichika as a person not a tool. That's called a character arc, anon.
>>134635494
>>134636979
So the reason for the claw around his face is so Emonzaemon's face doesn't fall off? Or is it just pure design?
>>134659624
Jesus christ man is it really that much of a stretch for you to believe that Togame was that focused on revenge and manipulative even of herself that she would've had the capacity to kill Shichika? Is it really that hard to accept that someone might love someone else but still feel the need to kill them?
> Still pretty head canon
Not really, pretty much every single time they eye shows up its either while she's making a plan or talking lovey dovey shit with Shichika. And as I said before, the eye dissolving away with the white snake as she died did pretty well to show that the eye was a part of her manipulative/devious ways.
>>134659938
>Jesus christ man is it really that much of a stretch for you to believe that Togame was that focused on revenge and manipulative even of herself that she would've had the capacity to kill Shichika?
Yes.
> Is it really that hard to accept that someone might love someone else but still feel the need to kill them?
In this particular instance? Yes.
>Not really
Wrong
>the eye dissolving away with the white snake as she died did pretty well to show that the eye was a part of her manipulative/devious ways.
Head canon.
>>134660143
> Head canon.
What else would it be if not related to her lying and scheming? Why would it be shown dissolving along with the snake ((again, her lies and scheming)) when she died?
I said it before as well, but I think it's highly unlikely the writers put the eye in if it didn't mean anything, and considering how and when it's used throughout the series, the only conclusion I can come to is that it shows up when she's scheming/planning, even if that itself is a pretty vague meaning, it's better than nothing.
>>134660143
>head canon
It's called fucking symbolism retard.
Honestly I don't know why your defending her lying about killing Shichika. There is nothing to prove it besides "she loved him." Is it so hard for you to grasp that she was a complex character? It baffles me because this idea makes the story less interesting and more generic.
>>134641700
yes
>>134659120
true
>>134660363
>What else would it be if not related to her lying and scheming?
It could be entirely random. It's nowhere in the books.
>((again, her lies and scheming))
Where does it say that?
>I think it's highly unlikely the writers put the eye in if it didn't mean anything
Why? Look at Rei.
>only conclusion I can come to is that it shows up when she's scheming/planning
To be fair, that is a valid interpretation. But to say that whenever the eye shows up is a sign she is not being sincere is head canon.
Surely it's far more likely that it shows that she's genuinely trying to seduce Shichika? After all, seduction pretty much is just lying.
And given how emotionally distraught she was during the Shogi episode, it seems pretty clear her feelings were genuine.
>>134660396
>It's called fucking symbolism retard.
That's called interpretation. Or in other words, head canon.
>there is nothing to prove it besides "she loved him."
And the fact she did love him is objectively true.
Furthermore, there is the complete lack of evidence that she was planning to kill him.
>Is it so hard for you to grasp that she was a complex character?
That isn't a complex character, it's an entirely different character to the one we've been presented with throughout the series.
>this idea makes the story less interesting and more generic
No it does not. It's proof that Togame's actually undergone a character arc. If we just take her speech at face value (and ignore EVERYTHING we've seen of her throughout the series up to this point) then it renders her entire character meaningless. It completely invalidates everything we've seen up till her death, and replaces it with nothing. She's literally just not a character if we take her speech at face value, and certainly not the character that has been presented to us.
>>134660396
To my mind, the fact she's lying in her death speech makes her far more complex, it shows she cares for Shichika outside of him merely being a means towards her ends. It means she's grown, matured and LEARNT HER LESSION, to appreciate people as people. The fact she loved Shichika, the fact she was making plans for AFTER she collected the swords to continue the adventure with Shichika shows she was no longer motivated by revenge, the Holy Man episode supports this.
The fact she is then killed because of the assumption that she is motivated purely by revenge makes it all the more tragic. If she were telling the truth, it renders her death meaningless.
>>134660363
And if the snake does represent deviousness, doesn't that imply that what she's saying whilst entwined with the snake (i.e. her death speech) is a lie?
>>134633063
Why would Birdman wear only half of Emon's face?
>>134661693
> It's nowhere in the books.
> "It's not in the original source material, therefore it's completely random and thrown in for no reason"
> Where does it say that
Like >>134660396 said, it's symbolism, snakes are very often shown as cunning/manipulative/lying/evil/sly, and taking into account what Togame says while dying, it suits that meaning and her perfectly.
>>134661972
No, because it was shown to be bound around her like it was restricting her, and then dissolving just before she asks Shichika if it's okay for her to love him and then dying.
> the eye shows up is a sign she is not being sincere
Again, that's not really what I mean, like I said, my interpretation is that it shows up when she's scheming, the implication of that could be good or bad depending on the context, it's bad when she's lying to/manipulating Shichika early on by saying the power of love beats everything/someone who fights for love is trustworthy etc, but good when say, she's hatching a plan to collect one of the swords or to reach a deal with someone.
> it seems pretty clear her feelings were genuine.
I'm not arguing her feelings for Shichika aren't genuine at that point, I know she does really love him, but that doesn't change the fact that she most likely would have been able to kill him once the mission was over, because she felt like she had to because of her father and how she couldn't bring herself to truly change how untrusting she is.
>>134642770
>Y'see that's why I think she was lying about killing him.
Please rewatch the Sage episode. He pretty much outright states that Togame is being driven by her desire for revenge so much that she will destroy herself and everything she loves unless she gives up on it.
That, and this is a Nisio series. People killing for love or despite love is a thing he often brings up and the theme of self-destruction caused by obsessions is a theme he often explores.
>>134640267
>I can't stand Araragi because he's a shitty hypocrite
/a/ loves hypocrites because it reminds them of themselves.
That said, as somebody who hasn't watched the Monogatari series since Nise, would you mind giving an example of how Araragi is a hypocrite?
>>134640833
>She was the bad guy
I see people say this a lot, but I think you guys are misinterpreting Togame's role in the plot. It's not necessarily one of good or evil.
>>134641337
I like to think that the kind of people who frequent anime clubs are not the type of people who use /a/.
Please don't shatter that illusion for me please.
>>134641526
/a/ has a disproportionate amount of Western European posters compared to other boards in my experience. The amount of Brits and Irish I've come across here is insane.
>>134662395
> "It's not in the original source material, therefore it's completely random and thrown in for no reason"
Yes, quite possibly.
>>134662395
>snakes are very often shown as cunning/manipulative/lying/evil/sly, and taking into account what Togame says while dying, it suits that meaning and her perfectly.
In the West, yes. But I think a white snake specifically has some sort of seeping meaning in Japan. I'm not sure what.
And even then, it still seems a toss up whether it shows she's admitting to having been deceitful or whether she's lying about being deceitful.
> and then dissolving just before she asks Shichika if it's okay for her to love him and then dying
Or that could simply be symbolic of Togame dying.
>my interpretation is that it shows up when she's scheming
Truthfully, I'd agree that that's valid, but I still think it's just too assumptive to say that shows she was lying to Shichika.
>that she most likely would have been able to kill him once the mission was over, because she felt like she had to because of her father and how she couldn't bring herself to truly change how untrusting she is.
Again, that just wasn't established satisfactorily for me. In fact, I'd have thought the Holy Man episode showed that she had resolved her issues surrounding her father, and the fact she was in love with Shichika (and the fact she didn't break Pengin's legs) shows she had become far more trusting.
If she did love him (and she did) and was still planning to kill him that should have produced an insane amount of emotional anguish/cognitive dissonance which just was not present.
>states that Togame is being driven by her desire for revenge so much that she will destroy herself and everything she loves unless she gives up on it
Yes. That's why she learnt from it and was, by her death speech, no longer solely driven by revenge.
>>134662909
>People killing for love or despite love is a thing he often brings up
Which makes it all the more unlikely for me that he'd do such a horrible job of it here.
>>134663452
Shit man you really just don't get it at all do you.
>>134663295
>I like to think that the kind of people who frequent anime clubs are not the type of people who use /a/.
I get what you mean, I've heard horror stories about Shippuden and Fairy Tale marathons.
But we've had an alright line up this semester, Tatami Galaxy, Katanagatari, Gangsta Gatchaman Crowds.
>>134641700
Deepest lore!
Wouldn't that basically tell us where the Monogatari series is based then if we go by the historical bases of the Shogunate?
>>134642183
How so?
>>134663576
If by "get it" you mean "go through the mental gymnastics I've had to go through to convince myself that Togame isn't the objective best girl" then yes, I don't "get it".
>>134643309
Good taste.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1274PRWHt4w
>>134663628
There is no best girl in the series, objectively, both Hitei and Togame were still pretty messed up in the end, despite everything that they went through, Togame was a liar and a schemer, despite everything she went through this mindset was so ingrained in her that she couldn't not think of things and people as tools, even if she held genuine feelings for them, and, in her eyes, deserved to die in the middle of the road without getting what she wanted because of how she's treated people and lied to Shichika.
Bit late to the thread, but having read everything that has been said, I'm now a bit confused as to what was Togame's exact reasoning for gathering all 10 swords?
>>134663816
It's a little vague, something like using the rep she would get from that to become advisor to the Shogun and reclaim her (( and by extension her fathers )) original noble rank, also I think it was implied that she wanted to cozy up to the Shogun so she could rule after he died, also fulfilling her fathers rebellion against the Shogun, even if it was in a much more official manner.
>>134663808
Chigau
>>134663906
That's a really fucking weak plan.
But if that is indeed the case, why do people say that Togame was "obsessed with murderous revenge". The only murder committed ordered by Togame was during the acquisition of certain swords - the rest of her plan seemed purely diplomatic. Big sword diplomacy maybe, but diplomacy nonetheless.
>>134663808
>both Hitei and Togame were still pretty messed up in the end
I dunno, Hitei just seems like she doesn't give a shit about her ancestral plan, with the exception of Togame's father's plan ultimately coming to fruition (for some reason).
>>134629774
It would be extremely disloyal.
For him
A lot of loyalty for a hired sword
>>134664031
Togame basically said the exact same thing in her death speech, and she really had no reason to lie to Shichika at that point.
It was pretty obvious from the get go that Shichika couldn't have handled her death well, and it should have been to Togame too, so lying about anything at that point is only messing up the whole "I'm going to tell you the truth before I die, whether you like it or not" + snake/eye ((her lying deceitful ways)) fading away, which fits perfectly with the ending narration and the point of the show, which is basically this >>134657992
>>134664162
The main difference in the end between Togame and Hitei was just that she was able to let go of her desire for revenge/power in the way that Togame couldn't , Hitei was able to move on in her life, as was Shichika.
>>134664318
>she was able to let go of her desire for revenge/power in the way that Togame couldn't
To be honest, the ease with which Hitei gave up her quest for power was a bit jarring for me.
That said, is it ever explicitly said that she was pursuing power or was she moreso just keeping her ancestral plan in motion?
>>134664318
>Togame basically said the exact same thing in her death speech, and she really had no reason to lie to Shichika at that point.
For the third time, she absolutely does. She wants him to move on from her death and not go kill crazy. That's also why she ordered him to move on and not go kill crazy.
Yeah, it was obvious that Shichika would have taken her death badly. THAT'S WHY SHE TRIED TO STOP HIM TAKING IT BADLY, BY LYING TO HIM.
Togame did grow as a character, she saw the fact people are ends and of themselves and she worked through her issues with her father, meaning she no longer lived for revenge.
She died not because she didn't put aside her revenge, but because it was ASSUMED she couldn't and was killed because of it.
That's tragedy, anon.
>>134664506
She was a rival for Togame, and in the end, probably stronger than her instead of an equal. Saw through the worst things that could happen, and gave her right hand man up at the right time rather than keeping him throughout and having him die at the end anyway.
Her goal was still mostly the same in the end (from what I remember), she just accepted everything and didn't lust for anything more. She likes to keep things moving.
>>134664610
>she just accepted everything and didn't lust for anything more
Wasn't her last line for the series something like "we need more funding for the rebellion"?
>>134664506
Hitei's just the type of person who can pass important shit off and make it sound trivial, she did go to great lengths to try and make her big fate change plan work.
>>134664518
THAT'S WHY SHE TRIED TO STOP HIM TAKING IT BADLY, BY LYING TO HIM.
So you're saying she lied to him and said she was definitely going to kill him, but then why did she say she loved him after that, and despite everything, I think she knew Shichika well enough that he would react badly to her death no matter what she said.
>>134664518
>She died not because she didn't put aside her revenge, but because it was ASSUMED she couldn't and was killed because of it.
I agree fully with what you've said, but I just have a query about her quest for revenge: How did any detail of Togame's plan actually involve getting revenge? All it seemed to revolve around was acquiring power.
>>134664610
>and gave her right hand man up at the right time rather than keeping him throughout and having him die at the end anyway.
What was so important about when she gave Emonzaemon? He pretty much died at the end anyway.
And if she likes to keep things moving, why was she so staunching opposed to Togame's plans if she doesn't care about the plans of her ancestors?
Sorry if it sounds like I'm being intentionally think, but I've always had problems understanding Hitei's motivations for....well, anything really.
>>134664693
No, she said to stop by some town or whatever to replenish their "war funds" but I think she was just joking and referring to the funds she and Shichika would need to go around mapping japan.
>>134664724
>she did go to great lengths to try and make her big fate change plan work.
But then she just gave up on it at a critical moment. It just doesn't make any sense to me.
>>134664764
Correct.
>>134664734
> How did any detail of Togame's plan actually involve getting revenge?
Killing Shichika for being the son of the man who killed her father, she would consider that revenge, as well as planning to take over as Shogun in the best case scenario after the current one dies, therefore kind of completing her fathers rebellion against the Shogunate.
>>134657311
>I didn't pay any attention to the show except my waifu
>>134664803
> She gave up on it at a critical moment
She 'gave up' because Emonzaemon died, that was pretty much the very last thing that would make her quit, if she kept trying for power after that, Shichika probably would have killed her.
>>134664724
>but then why did she say she loved him after that?
Think about it; She said she was planning to kill him because that would be in line with her scheming nature and hence Shichika be more likely to believe that she was being honest. The profession of love however seemed to me like something she wanted to admit but it the context of the fact that even though she loved him, she was planning on killing him anyway because her quest for revenge comes first (at this stage of course, that was the lie)
>>134664734
*gave up
>>134658362
>Even he knows it doesn't make sense
Shichika wasn't the brightest person around, you see. The answer is Togame was a very devious person with severed mental illness and truth issues. She literally truth no one, not even Shichika, so she couldn't be sure what Shichika would do if she told him something stupid.
>>134664724
> but then why did she say she loved him
Because she knew it absolutely obvious that she did love him. If she just denied that straight up, Shichika would cotton on in a second, that's why she had to rationalise it away with "y-yeah I loved you but that f-feeling was totally just a pawn to me, yeah!"
>I think she knew Shichika well enough that he would react badly to her death no matter what she said
Possibly, but that does not mean she didn't feel she had to try.
The lie wasn't going to be that convincing, no matter what. Mainly because you were supposed to realise it was a lie.
>>134664734
>How did any detail of Togame's plan actually involve getting revenge? All it seemed to revolve around was acquiring power.
Well, I'd say that's another good argument against the "Togame was purely driven by revenge" line, her ambitions are never actually made clear.
It seems like she was just genuinely trying to curry favour by collecting the swords, with no interest in actually usurping the throne or killing the shogun.
>>134664764
It would also be a rather funny pun if you were actually leading a rebellion.
Since she did kinda assassinate the shogun.
>>134664846
>>134665130
>Killing Shichika for being the son of the man who killed her father
>revenge
While I'm of the opinion that doing so was definitely initially part of her plan, by the time she tied she was no longer pursuing that particular goal and just wanted the power that would come with presenting the swords to the Shogun.
>>134665251
*died
>>134665251
Yeah, I'm down with that.
>>134665039
>>134664922
It's pretty clear throughout the entirety of Togame's death scene that whether or not Shichika believes what she's saying is irrelevant, and Togame likely would have known he would react this way considering how much they'd been through.
>>134665447
I doubt that would stop her trying to dissuade him though. Like, telling somebody that you were planning on killing them (regardless of whether it was true at that point of not) is a pretty desperate step to take to try and prevent somebody going on a mental killing spree.
Are we sure that during her death scene that Togame didn't say that she was planning on killing him initially but then she fell in love with him.The implication being that at the point of her death she had no intention of killing Shichika, hence her plans for their future.
The reason I ask is I've heard that there's a certain amount of variance between the sub groups when it comes to translating that particular scene.
>>134633237
Because Nisio needed a plot twist at the end to make Ichika bad-ass
>>134666948
It's more like because he realized which girl was better and made best girl win.
>>134629774
For me.
>>134663628
But you're undermining Togame being best girl by making her a generic "I don't want the man I love to be sad after I die" instead of a mentally unstable manipulative genius. Your argument is that Togame isn't as complex and unique as the show would have you believe. I would understand your argument of cognitive dissonance if the show was a character study but it's a show about collecting swords not Togame's psychology. I fucking love Togame because of how fucked up she is and you're making her a generic moeblob with no character.
>>134665039
You're grasping at straws. If that was the way the speech was presented you would have a point but she closes with "is it okay if I fall in love with you." Basically asking him to forgive her and let her love him despite what she did or would do.
>>134667962
I think you're trying really hard to see something that just isn't there.
And I'm not arguing it's complex or world breaking or anything, it's just how I think the story was supposed to have been interpreted based off the what actually happened in the show.
The fact of it is, you have no reason to think Togame was leading Shichika on at all apart from her death speech. That's bad writing.
In, for example, Fight Club you could cotton on the narrator was unreliable before it was revealed outright.
You just don't get that here.
>>134668727
> You just don't get that here
Maybe you didn't, but most people did, or were at least able to recognize the signs in retrospect.
>>134668828
>implying the majority is always right
See, a smarter person would have used this as a prompt to demonstrate that, actually, the show DOES actually demonstrate that Togame's a devious character and that I've simply not picked up on that.
But I guess you've figured out you can't do that without it sounding shithouse and just don't want to back down, eh?
>>134669202
Not really, I've just pointed out everything relevant that should prove or at least imply that Togame is a devious character, at least in regard to the end, because it IS pretty obvious.
But you keep insisting it's only one interpretation, while asserting your side, which really isn't any stronger than mine, it completely hinges on your assumption that Togame loved Shichika and created some tedious lie in the hopes that it would make him get over her faster or something like that.
It just makes her death scene way too muddled in semantics if you think about it that way, instead of a more simple "I'm laying my intentions on the table, but for what its worth, I'm glad they didn't come true" which would suit her character arc and one of the series' main messages, about people who failed at their plans, and were consumed by revenge or power to the point where they really couldn't live normal lives anymore.
>>134669525
>I've just pointed out everything relevant that should prove or at least imply that Togame is a devious character
And it was shithouse.
>you keep insisting it's only one interpretation
Because it is. A very weak one at that.
>completely hinges on your assumption that Togame loved Shichika
That is not an assumption, that is a proven fact of the series. Watch the shougi episode.
>It just makes her death scene way too muddled in semantics
She was lying to him to stop him going kill crazy. What's difficult to understand about that?
The fact is your entire interpretation hinges upon the assumption that Togame had somehow managed to trick herself into loving Shichika. That's pure head canon; there is nothing in the show to suggest that. Literally, the only way you could square it was "she hypnotised herself off screen lol" which is clearly retarded.
>>134670316
You keep coming back to Togame loving Shichika but that wasn't her only motivation as a character. The point of the speech was that her motivations were clashing. Which makes her complex. She isn't a wide eyed emotional moe; she's a devious logical genius and that is evident throughout the show. Therefore it's easy to imagine her doing this. You obviously don't understand her character if you think she would let her emotions get in the way of her ambitions.
>>134669202
>I'm smarter than everyone else therefore the majority of peoples interpretation doesn't matter if I don't agree with it
You're a fucking idiot.
>>134670740
>only motivation as a character
I never claimed it was. There are plenty practical reasons not to want Shichika not to go kill crazy.
>She isn't a wide eyed emotional moe
I never said that, but she isn't a sociopath either.
> it's easy to imagine her doing this
That's the problem. Your IMAGINING this, not seeing it.
> if you think she would let her emotions get in the way of her ambitions
You clearly ignored her entire character arc.
>>134670841
Look, I've explained why your interpretation is faulty. Don't try to then claim I'm the only one who feels that way and don't just get annoyed because you can't prove your point.
>>134670316
> It was shithouse
Great response
> managed to trick herself into loving Shichika
I never said she tricked herself into doing anything, I said it several times before that I believe Togame did indeed genuinely love Shichika, but that fact alone wouldn't have stopped her from killing him at the end of the mission.
You can make whatever assumptions you want at this point, but all we have to really go on is what Togame herself said before she died, and in the state she was in, I think it'd be clear to pretty much anyone that she was serious about killing him, and that's why the scene was that much more emotional because her death was the only possible way out of having to do that. Her just lying about planning to kill him doesn't suit her character at all, and again, considering the very VERY obvious symbolism with the snake constricting her + the eye and how it was used throughout the series + what Togame herself says upon dying, there's more evidence pointing to her being completely honest during her dying speech rather than her just making some shit up not to hurt Shichika's feelings.
>>134670965
> You clearly ignored her entire character arc
Her arc ((especially in the episode with the sheath sword)) was meant to bait you into thinking she came to terms with herself, that's why her confession while dying that she was still planning to kill Shichika was such a slap in the face, and showed that you cant just cry away an entire lifetime of manipulation and scheming and revenge.
