Which do you prefer?
Fuck that, should I watch the Claymore anime before picking up the manga?
>>133134760
Strict translation with TL when needed.
Somewhere in between.
Make it so the translation is actually enjoyable to read while also trying to keep the subtle shit. If something can't be translated correctly, have a TL note instead of trying to adapt/use a similar western equivalent.
The raws, because I'm not an EOP. The ideal translation would be stilted and awkward in English, a language that's too far removed from Japanese for consistent translation.
>>133134812
Doesn't matter. The anime is like Berserk where it just ends, while the manga has the full story.
>>133134760
>Strict Translation
Which do you mean: Google-translate level translations or weeaboo "this word has no equivalent in English and thus must remain in Japanese" level?
>腹が減った。
How would you translate this?
>I'm hungryLocalized garbage
>my stomach is emptyconveys meaning in an equivalent phrase, best choice but often not possible
>my stomach/insides has diminished/decreasedwhat the fuck are you doing retard
Somewhere in between
Full blown localization sucks, and full blown strict translation isn't the best option either.
>>133135035
Just go with what the machine says. "Belly has decreased".
>>133134760
Avoid localization as much as possible.
>>133134760
localization. If I want to read Japanese I'd learn it. Strict is for wannabe elitists snobs who failed at learning Japanese.
>>133134825
This.
Woolseyisms>Strict, lifeless translations, though.
>>133135314
>Woolseyisms
There is nothing worse than that shit.
>>133134760
how do you even fill this 2-pg gap
>>133134760
For manga I am okay with either, for anime, strict. I don't get put off by weird sentance structure in subs because I hear the Japanese speech sounding natural. Localized shit often destroys the original meaning, so I greatly prefer a literal translation that looks weird but is understood. Though T/L notes should be used only when extremely necessary
>>133135664
>Woolseyisms
this, I would rather read subs as difficultly worded as shakespeare which retain original meaning, than something a random american translator came up with.
>>133135035
Innards shrinking.
>>133135664
Confirmed for bad taste. Woolsey carried the FF series on his back.
>>133135035
onaka suita = I'm hungry
Hara ga hetta = My stomach is empty
>>133135944
A dub like Ghost Stories' can make for a very hilarious anime, but it still is the destruction of the original dialogue. If I was interested in Ghost Stories, not the dub, I would see the dub as extremely shitty because the original story I was interested in was lost.
Same with many Woolsey games. His translations drastically change the games, people just happened to like his version. The original stories were still withheld from english speakers when Woolsey was hired to deliver it. He failed
>>133135944
His translations were good for the time, but they're shit tier compared to modern localization standards. His translations tended to be both wrong and laughably simplistic.
>>133135035
I require food sustenance.
>>133134760
Strict translation. Something always gets lost when translators try to get cute.
>>133137897
>Something always gets lost
ftfy
>>133134760
Please stop trying to frame it as one extreme or the other, as many people have pointed out not only does a middle ground exist but it is by far the better option. They are not mutually exclusive.
>>133134760
Translation. If it's peppered with TNs for random Japanese with obvious translations, that's bad, but it's still usually better than localization.
>>133134760
Whatever pisses you off the most.
>>133138041
Came in here to say this. Generally happy when translation is exact except for figures of speech that don't translate well.
>>133139093
/thread
>>133135852
>That image
>>133134760
Localization is shit. Commie can fuck off, 4kids can fuck off, CR manga can fuck off.
>>133134760
Localization. I've never seen a case of strict, literal TLs being good.
i prefer it when all my cartoons take place in America, and everyone eats burgers and donuts.
>>133140947
I also love dubs, censorship and terrible redraws.
>>133141062
Does the one on the right actually sell?
>>133135035
"I'm hungry" is the way to go. "I'm starving" can also be ok depending on the context.
>>133135035
How about
>I'm so hungry my stomach is caving in
Best of both worlds.
Raw.
All of you bitching about shit getting lost in localization don't speak japanese any way. What I hate is watching shit with EORs and seeing something like "it would make no sense for us to do that" presented in the subs as "that would be dishonorable."
But none of you faggots caught that bullshit this weekend, did you? None of you noticed a leader's confidence in his well executed plan reduced to "muh honoru." So how about you either learn japanese or take the shit you're given and quit pretending you know shit all of what you're bitching over?
>>133141633
Learning Japanese takes a fucking long time, and if I'm going to learn Japanese and it would be stupid for me to ignore the Kanji. You shouldn't have to learn Japanese to compensate for bad translation groups.
Also the sooner commie dies the better.
>>133141809
It takes a couple of years tops, and you can be reading Jump shit in a couple of months.
With how easy it is to learn Japanese in the information age, it's pretty funny how many people adamantly refuse and then spend 16 hours a day shitposting for a decade.
>>133141864
I never said I'm not learning Japanese but my point was it's a huge investment not everybody has time for and there wasn't a problem with getting decent subs until groups like GG and commie came along with their meme shit. Same problem applies to video games where some companies such as Atlus don't add dual audio or NISA whos translations make commie look redeemable.
It doesn't have to be this way, I'm learning Japanese partly because of their incompetence.
>>133142020
>there wasn't a problem with getting decent subs until groups like GG and commie came along
Is this actually your honest belief?
>>133142101
There were a lot of shit groups in the mid 2000s but most of them had died at that point so obviously I'm not talking about them. GG started it but commie took it to another level of awful shit.
>>133136458
Come on, he got like two weeks for Chrono Trigger. Living on coffein flavored coffee doe that to you.
>>133135035
I require nourishment to maintain my internal biological structure.
>>133135774
With a lot of patience. I'd start out with the white "veins" and then fill the tone in the middle for the wing. the floor and ceiling shouldn't be hard.
>>133141651
>>133142474
This shit bothered me for years.
For this show I'm actually interested in strict translation but I think no amount of TLs is going to help me.
>>133142474
>>133142573
I remember as a kid I was so confused by what sort of fucking donuts they were. I assumed they must have been some sort of American donut you can't get here in Britbong, because at the time I just thought Pokemon was an American cartoon.
>>133142020
>there wasn't a problem with getting decent subs until groups like GG and commie came along
But gg is literally the first group to actually make decent subs
>>133142587
>Kumeta
>strict translation
do you just not care
>>133142779
It made me ask the clerks at every grocery store I went to for black and white triangle/pyramid donuts.
>>133134760
Is Claymore still going, or is it finished?
>>133143056
So basically you are everything wrong with this board? Ok I get it now.
>>133134760
If it's a fan translation, it should be as literal as possible while remaining in proper english.
If it's an official translation, no hold's barred with localization so long as the tone and meaning of the original is loosely preserved.
Fan translations exist to make a work accessible to fans, and should preserve as much of the original as is humanly possible. At the end of the day, it's not their job to attempt to 'improve' upon the original or make it easy to understand. A fan can easily google anything particular cultural idiosyncrasy they do not understand. Any change made beyond the absolute minimum necessary to make it readable in english is essentially changing the work. People come looking for a fan translation because they want to know what the author wrote, not because they want to see how the fan translator interpreted it.
Official translations are creating their own brand out of the product within their own market, and shouldn't consider themselves under the same obligations to preserve the integrity of the original work. Their translation is a commodity and a product whose rights they own and for whom selling to the consumer is the goal. Their target audience isn't limited to existing fans and they shouldn't feel any obligation to them. If an official translation believes they can improve upon the original or make it more enjoyable or easily comprehensible to their target audience, they should make whatever changes they deem beneficial. One would expect a professional to have the expertise to make those decisions adequately, and execute them effectively.
>>133143971
You seem to be fucking braindead, dude.
A fan translation isn't to make a work accessible to fans. It's work done BY a fan. I'd trust someone who enjoyed the work and wants to share it with the world with more leeway in terms of errors and localisation than I would some retard who translates half a dozen shitty JRPGs a month "professionally" with no real regard for the content, and far too much power. What happens when the "pro" decides that the game is too risque for American audiences? It's a judged under different standards than a patch, so they butcher the dialogue.
Honestly, I don't give a fuck either way, I wouldn't be caught dead with translated material because it's always inferior.
>>133143617
Ended last year. Ending was shit don't bother.
>>133143617
It's finished.
>>133143971
>if there's no official translations, then people don't want the same things as when there is
>a product that you have to buy first has a less limited target audience than one that you just have to download
>fans have a different job from professionals
No.
>>133142474
>I just love pizza
>Huh? You get pizza while we're stuck with...
>...whatever it is I'm holding!?
>>133134812
The Anime has an original ending
Read the Manga first
>>133135035
nah senpai localized garbage would be
>Runnin' on empty my man
>>133134760
Depends how repetitive a literal translation is. If by localizing you mean "sensible sentence structure" then yeah sure.
>>133144579
Nah, that would be funny.
>>133144638
No it would funny to you and that's why it's localized garbage.
>>133144169
I've wasted a bit of money on crappy translations (mostly stuff like Atelier) over the years and I have to wonder why would they do something like that to those games? They seem to be completely oblivious to their fan market which doesn't make sense as they're rather niche titles. NISA is the fucking worst and I don't think Atlus USA deserves any praise either.
>>133144720
They know they're the only option. Once they have the licence, that's it, nobody will ever take it away from them. All localisation companies are basically built on hiring cheap translators, getting a few English major interns in to edit the script, and making a ton of money off the Jap's inability to understand English.
>>133144669
Are you saying they can't have funny dialogue in Japanese?
>>133134760
Define "Localization" first.
Also, "Strict Translation" doesn't make any sense.
>>133134760
just came to say
Riful best girl
that is all
>>133144897
A strict translation is a translation that adheres strictly to the tone, diction, syntax and meter of the original.
Localizations are deliberate deviations from the tone, diction, syntax or meter of the original for the purpose of making the translated script more comprehensible to a reader, or in an attempt to better appeal to that reader.
>絶体絶命
>We're stuck between a rock and a hard place
>We're in a dire situation
>Lo and behold! Zettai and Zetsumei shine in the sky! (TL NOTE: The omen of Zettai is that of a collapsing body; the omen of Zetsumei is that of a collapsing destiny)
>>133145062
>A strict translation is a translation that adheres strictly to the tone, diction, syntax and meter of the original.
That would just be the original language. You can't possibly maintain all of those things during the translation to a new language.
>>133145062
>A strict translation is a translation that adheres strictly to the tone, diction, syntax and meter of the original.
You have no idea what translating something entails. I doubt you even speak 2 languages.
>>133145104
Desperate situation
>>133145104
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dg6DpEAscU
>>133145104
I can't speak moon to tell whether "Lo and behold!" is good, but I wouldn't mind a TN if it weren't so wordy. Just "Zettai and Zetsumei are ill omens/signify collapse/something".
>>133145062
>a translation that adheres strictly to the tone, diction, syntax and meter of the original
That doesn't even work all the time.
For instance with Japanese or Chinese to Western languages.
A strict translations merely maintains the content and tone precisely.
Nobody gives a shit it's two words longer or shorter, especially if that would make the translation less accurate.
In essence your conception is impossible and contrary to itself.
>>133145062
Thanks.
My answer then is simple: strict translation.
I want read, say, Dante's Divine Comedy, not Mister Translator's Awesome Comic.
Of course, that's not to say puns or sayings must be translated 1:1, but that whenever is possible it's preferable to adhere to the original wordings
>>133145310
Obviously, there are limits in adherence due the different languages.
But the underling idea is "whenever possible"
>>133145529
Whenever possible is basically never.
1:1 translations are a myth.
>>133134760
Most shows aren't really that impressive to begin with, so you don't lose much by throwing out some subtlety. Do you really need your generic harem SoL, or your shonenshit to perfectly mirror the original japanese?
>>133145570
Meter and syntax are very uncommon(though it depends on the languages involved), but tone and diction are relatively easy(though it depends on the languages involved)
>>133145736
>but tone and diction are relatively easy
Do you have examples for that claim?
>>133145104
"Between a rock and a hard place" is more akin to "between a cross and a sword".
>>133145736
I'm assuming you're doing something stupid like comparing closely related romance languages with fucking Asiatic shit like a moron.
Japanese is pretty much completely infeasible to translate anywhere close to accurately.
>>133145245
It's an idiom that most people use without knowing that it originates from the names of two stars from Chinese nine star ki astrology.
If someone used the English idiom "turn a blind eye", would you translate it literally and put (TL NOTE: This is an idiom referencing when Admiral Horatio Nelson ignored a flag signal order by putting a telescope to his blind eye and saying he did not see the signal)?
>>133134760
As strict as possible, with TL Notes where necessary to explain cultural jokes or wordplay, but I accept localization for really impossible stuff like science fiction terms.
>>133144855
Didn't you know? The Japanese are super serious all the time.
>>133145062
Nice bias
>>133145868
>without knowing that it originates from the names of two stars from Chinese nine star ki astrology.
Where are you getting this shit from?
>>133145868
Hell, 絶体 is often mistaken for 絶対 when someone is asked to write it out. "Absolute annihilation" is pretty close in meaning to "desperate situation" anyway.
In philosophy there's this idea called a proposition, which is basically the pure, language independent concept, idea meaning or thought conveyed by words, phrases and statements.
So like the the proposition conveyed by 'black' when you say "the black night" is different from the proposition conveyed by black in 'the black man," but that first sentence conveys the same proposition as "le nuit noir." It doesn't matter what language you're using to convey a proposition, what matters is the proposition.
The first priority in a translation should be conveying the same proposition as the original by whatever means best accomplish that.
The secondary priority should that, wherever possible, the translator should choose of the possible ways of clearly communicating that proposition the one that best matches the aesthetic aspects of the original.
So for example, when translating poetry, a translator should aim to preserve things like the number of syllables per line, the pattern of stress placed on those syllables, the rhyme scheme, alliteration and the general flow if and only if these things can be preserved while conveying the proposition of the original.
Meaning is primary and aesthetic/linguistic features are desirable but secondary.
Fortunately, I think the vast majority of japanese media for which this concerns is simple enough in language that there's rarely, if ever, anything worth preserving beyond the meaning itself.
>>133145943
desu senpai it actually looks like that half the time.
I'm sure than have some capacity to make jokes or have fun.
But I imagine it's near impossible to translate or convey.
Maybe the random kawaii desu bullshit is all they have, fun wise.
It would explain some things.
>>133135035
You would never translate it to "my stomach is empty" because that would be fucking stupid. You translate it to "I'm hungry", or if the character is really emphasizing their hunger; "I'm starving" or "I'm famished".
When translating you should whenever possible localize just enough to make conversations feel natural in the language you translate to. It's very much possible to localize something without going full RUB-A-DUB-DUB THANKS FOR THE GRUB.
>>133146100
>than
they
>>133146069
Having to translate poetry is active torture.
I like strict translation; I'd rather they put a note explaining the Japanese lingual/cultural significance instead of messing around with the original intent.
>>133145856
It's not THAT hard to translate Japanese in romance languages.
The main problem is with the English language.
Just the fact the English language is extremely limited in showing degrees of closeness when talking to other makes it a very hard language to translate from even most romance languages.
>>133146110
>When translating you should whenever possible localize just enough to make conversations feel natural in the language you translate to.
the problem with this is "what feels natural changes from person to person".
Still, a generally good rule is "people don't want YOUR version and interpretation of this, they want the original rendered in a different language. Don't change anything you can keep, even if it sounds weird as long as it's correct".
>>133146161
Translating poetry while keeping it poetry is objectively futile and meaningless, unless you are lucky enough the original language is REALLY similar to yours.
>>133146110
It's also worth noting that the fact the japanese mentions the stomach at all is simply a grammar quirk and trying to keep grammar equivalent between 2 languages with fundamentally different writing systems is comically absurd. Just because japanese needs to reference the specific body part of the subject when referring to an attitude of that subject doesn't mean it's actually relevant to the meaning of the statement in english. It's similar to how translating from japanese to english often forces you to insert a subject into the sentence because japanese is a language that allows the subject to be omitted or implied under certain circumstances while english requires it almost always. You infer and insert the subject when translating into english because you're translating grammar.
Times when grammatical differences between languages cause meaning to be lost by necessity are called linguistic incompatibilities. It's actually something that people have only really begun to become aware if in the past 100 years or so. It's part of the reason why Petrarch's sonnets tend to sound exceptionally masturbatory when translated into english, and english studies of it have been blissfully unaware of that misapprehension until relatively recently.
>>133146069
>but that first sentence conveys the same proposition as "le nuit noir." It doesn't matter what language you're using to convey a proposition, what matters is the proposition.
That is plain not true.
Even something as simple as colors has different meanings in different languages.
In English, blue is considered a sad color. In Japanese, there is very little distinction between blue and green. Their green traffic lights are *almost* blue too.
Something might go from being a *go* signal to a melancholic atmosphere all without changing the wording a single bit.
Languages are philosophies. Some languages have a bunch of words to differentiate between things that in a different language are one and the same. German has two words for the same, because the same is not necessarily the same. Das gleiche is just something that is alike, while dasselbe is actually the original item you were talking about. That sort of distinction matters to Germans.
>>133146389
>"people don't want YOUR version and interpretation of this, they want the original rendered in a different language.
They're gonna have a hard time getting that when it's always gonna be someone's interpretation.
>>133146434
>German has two words for the same, because the same is not necessarily the same.
Gleiches und Selbes aren't the same
>>133146389
>"people don't want YOUR version and interpretation of this, they want the original rendered in a different language. Don't change anything you can keep, even if it sounds weird as long as it's correct".
Translating MEANS interpreting.
There is a reason why a professional translator is called an interpreter.
>>133134760
Strict. There are some subs I just don't fucking understand because they use outdated slang or American words I don't know the meaning of (like their school years).
I was watching Gundam Wing and they subbed oyasumi as "I'm sacking in". Not only would "goodnight" be totally fine, I've never heard that slang before in my life, it's either old or not used in my country. I could've inferred the meaning without knowing the Japanese but it sounds unnatural as fuck.
>>133146559
Both could be translated to the same, though their meanings are not identical.
>>133146434
English word for blue and the japanese word for 'blue' don't carry the same propositional meaning. You're getting caught up on semantics. The french example was just apt because both languages have a single word for a single colour that both also happen to convey the same proposition within an extremely similar sentence.
The goal with translating by proposition is not to find some magical word that perfectly captures everything possibly meant by the original word and plug it right into the sentence, but to construct a sentence from scratch that ultimately conveys the same proposition as the one conveyed in the original language, regardless of the kind of language of choices of words necessary to make that happen.
That a single word's meaning can be ambiguous or imply a double-entendre is an aesthetic property to the syntax and preserving it comes secondary to ensuring that the proposition itself is clearly conveyed in the new language.
>>133146611
English is too "simple" in my opinion.
You just don't have enough grammatical constructs to express complex thoughts clearly.
>>133146690
>but to construct a sentence from scratch that ultimately conveys the same proposition as the one conveyed in the original language, regardless of the kind of language of choices of words necessary to make that happen.
A lofty goal, considering people are still coming up with new translations to classics within the same language family. It's basically impossible to accomplish.
But sure, that's what you should strive for.
>>133134760
Middle ground, strict often ends up being as sensible as google translations.
>>133146100
Their jokes are usually silly wordplays.
Strict translation. I know enough about Japan to fill in the blanks. I wish they'd even keep the grammar structure similar. Nothing annoys me more than hearing "nee-san" near the end of a sentence, yet they translated it right in the beginning.
>>133146905
Bait
>>133146432
I partly agree with you, but if you read less localized subs/manga for a while, you'd get used to it and understand more about Japanese grammatical structure, and probably learn more words while watching anime.
>>133147022
You should never have your translation consist of grammaticaly incorrect sentences unless the source was also grammaticaly incorrect
>>133146432
>It's part of the reason why Petrarch's sonnets tend to sound exceptionally masturbatory when translated into english,
...even MORE than in Italian?
>>133146463
Of course. That's why a good translator should do their hardest to keep it as impersonal as possible.
>>133146563
Actually, there is difference.
An Interpreter "just" has to translate the "meaning", fuck the nuances(unless they are part of the meaning).
A translator should try to translate the forms and nuances.
>>133146757
That's not true. The problem is how it's limited in conveying nuances.
For example, the Italian
Sei bellissima.
and
Siete bellissima.
would both translate to "You are beautiful", even though there is a BIG difference, as "Siete" is second plural person which denotes a level of distance\reverences\etc
(Honorifics are usually not translated from Japanese to Italian because the difference is normally rendered with the use of different persons(and, sometime, synonyms) )
This applies a great many things in English, it's simply NOT an efficient language for grammatical subtleties.
Not to say it doesn't have its really good point: it's great to express simple things efficiently.
>>133147022
I won't read shit in broken English just to catch a few new weeaboonisms. Language matters to me.
If I had the motivation to learn Japanese I'd do it properly.
>>133146799
>considering people are still coming up with new translations to classics within the same language family
People have been translating and retranslating Beowulf for a thousand years, but it's not because they don't feel they've adequately captured the meaning of it.
Rather we're so intimately familiar with its meaning as an academic community that the goal has been through most of this translation and retranslation to fit or mimic the aesthetic properties of the original as closely as humanly possible. This is why you can go to a bokstore and pick up an english-translated copy of beowulf that's completely in metered verse and preserves all of the alliteration and much of the rhyming scheme of the original.
It took a very long time to get there and 'perfection' in that aspect is impossible, but translating aesthetics is very different from simply translating meaning.
>>133146069
>In philosophy there's this idea called a proposition, which is basically the pure, language independent concept
And in psychology, there's the concept that language actually influences how we think, so some ideas may be impossible to perfectly convey in another language, which completely obliterated the concept of proposition.
>>133147168
But psychology is a joke and a complete pseudoscience so nobody should be taking it seriously anyways.
>>133147112
if the English is broken and the original was in correct Japanese, it's not a strict translation, it's a SHIT translation.
Of course, if it was broken in original then it must stay broken once translated- this applies to "weird", too.
>>133147203
I'm sorry, did you just overrule how minds work on the basis of how they *should* work?
>>133147168
What if someone has a different-language-thinking-understanding of different-language-thinking-understanding?
>philosophy 0
>psychology 0
>>133147100
>You should never have your translation consist of grammaticaly incorrect sentences
It doesn't have to be grammatically incorrect. Any sentence in English you give me that is sufficiently long I can re-write in 8 different ways while maintaining proper grammar. Also, there are levels of grammatical correctness. For instance, "How are you?" "Really hungry". "Really hungry" is not a sentence, yet it is completely natural in English.
>>133147234
You are the guy asking for a google translation, not me.
Translating includes localization.
>>133147101
English shouldn't have dropped "thou"
>>133147264
Without actually speaking that language?
You think in words. That's the point.
>>133147273
Japanese has the habit of just omitting the subject.
Now remain true to that and construct a correct English sentence.
>>133147203
>But psychology is a joke and a complete pseudoscience
Actually, this is a concept in cognitive psychology, which is basically a hard science as it's so closely related to biology. The experiments they've done on the subject are quite conclusive.
>>133147203
lol
>>133147273
It's a sentence enough based on context.
The answer of 'really hungry' implies answering the question.
>how are you
>really hungry
>I am really hungry
The answer to 'are you' is always the same.
>>133144579
Yo! Welcome to Niggastream! You're hired!
>>133147372
>Now remain true to that and construct a correct English sentence.
I'm sorry, you seem to be mistaking me for someone who argued we should construct grammatically incorrect sentences. I never said this.
>>133147285
Yeah.
You know, I think I will try and always translate "you" with "voi"(2nd pl.) for a while and see how it works.
...now I'm thinking Prince of Bel-Air with everybody talking deferential.
>>133147239
No, that's not even close to what just happened. What just happened was that psychology got called out for peddling lies as facts and pretending it knows anything about things it really knows nothing about, and parading itself as a science without actually following scientific method or producing results that are reproducible or verifiable in experimental environments.
Please stop trying to salvage the joke degree you wasted so much time and money on. I know the sunk cost hurts, but you should really try to move on
>>133147500
No, you are the one who argued for no-interpretations, perfectly true to the original translations for the purpose of learning Japanese.
Adding subjects to sentences that don't have them is an interpretation, isn't it?
They never said that it was actually X who did Y. They just said Y. By what right does the translator claim that it was X?
>>133147577
Do you think every japanese person is constantly making blind guesses at who one another is referring to because there's no subject?
>>133147527
did a therapist call you crazy or something
>>133147646
There's this thing called context, yo know.
>>133134760
Localization for shows without a Japanese setting
Strict translation otherwise
>>133147646
Did you or did you not want to have a good basis to learn Japanese from?
>>133147577
Most of the time, it's quite obvious.
Of course, whenever possible it's advisable to avoid using a subject... except that's not possible in English.
It's possible in many other languages, though.
>>133147703
Then you get Robotech instead of Macross...
>>133147700
And if context clearly implies a subject there's no ambiguity and therefore no interpretation
>>133147577
>no-interpretations, perfectly true to the original translations
No, I said "less localized". Like, they may translate it as "want to come with me to the store" when the sentence was really more like "I'm going to the store, want to come with"
There are often times when they could translate things a little more awkwardly while still maintaining grammar and have it be closer to the actual flow of the Japanese.
Mind you, this mind of mine properly works with convoluted grammar, even. Everyone is not capable of following, easily, a sentence with grammar (although proper) that does not flow easily.
>>133147720
You're talking to a different guy, I just thought your analogy was shit.
>>133147527
>No, that's not even close to what just happened. What just happened was that psychology got called out for peddling lies as facts and pretending it knows anything about things it really knows nothing about, and parading itself as a science without actually following scientific method or producing results that are reproducible or verifiable in experimental environments.
Psych major here, and I agree with this statement. However, what I said earlier came out of a field of psychology that uses actual experimentation, so your point is invalid.
We think in different languages, and the language we learn influences our thinking greatly.
>>133147760
It was an example, not an analogy. He said he wanted to have his subs closer to the original so he could learn Japanese with them.
>>133147824
>We think in different languages
This actually comes out of structuralism, which is getting on to being 100 years out of date now. Semiotics is not a science.
>>133146606
>Not only would "goodnight" be totally fine
But if you wanted to be strict, "oyasumi" is "rest".
Oyasumi is the abbreviated form of oyasuminasai, which is the polite imperative form of "rest" (ie: please rest well).
Good night is the abbreviated form of "I wish you a good night".
(Good) night is therefore a localization of oyasumi (nasai) because they are both salutations used either before going to sleep or when parting at night; they do not literally mean the same thing.
>>133147755
>Everyone is not capable of following, easily, a sentence with grammar (although proper) that does not flow easily.
What?
Unless the grammar is REALLY convoluted(like with multiple multiple negations), I've never met anybody with such a problem.
Maybe is a problem with the English language?
It has an extremely simple grammatical structure, maybe it makes harder for native speakers to follow more complex sentences?
>>133147933
>which is getting on to being 100 years out of date now
Naw, I'm talking about stuff done in the last 20 years.
>>133148037
>Unless the grammar is REALLY convoluted(like with multiple multiple negations), I've never met anybody with such a problem.
The sentences I gave as examples were fairly convoluted, and have what I would describe as low readability. Doing things like splitting the subject from the action by an entire sentence will trip people up. It's poor practice in grammar, and slows people down while reading it, which is undesirable for subs unless your target audience has the hardware to rapidly decode fragmented grammar.
In a manga it doesn't even matter since you don't have the original playing in the background.
>>133147947
See the problem with what you're doing is attempting to criticize ascribing english equivalency to japanese words by ascribing english equivalency to japanese words.
Translating Oyasumi as 'rest' is every bit as wrong as translating it as 'good night.' A japanese speaker doesn't query the english use of the word 'rest' before saying 'oyasumi.' They have an intended meaning which they attempt to communicate by saying 'oyasumi' and english simply finds the nearest equivalent through which to understand the meaning conveyed.
Also, Good night isn't an abbreviation. It's simply omitting the pieces of the sentence which are clearly implied by its context, which is a grammatical tool common to virtually every language's conversational tone.If you wanted to be anal, good night means something more along the lines of "I wish that your night be blessed by the graces of our Lord."
"Good" is a corruption of "God" or "with God."
Localization is for niggers.
>>133148355
His point still stands. The guy he responded to doesn't want strict translation, he wants better localization.
>>133147755
>Mind you, this mind of mine properly works with convoluted grammar, even.
that's a fucker of a sentence right there anon, way to prove your point.
>>133148355
>"Good" is a corruption of "God" or "with God."
No it's not. Similar words exist within all germanic languages and have existed from way before christianity made its way to northern europe.
>>133148492
>The guy he responded to (>>133146606) doesn't want strict translation, he wants better localization.
The first fucking word in that post was "strict".
>>133147947
It's almost like there's a middle fucking ground between retarded, literal translations of things that have a natural, widely accepted english equivalent, and gratiutious, slang riddled localization because the translator thinks they can make the script more interesting.
That same subber kept translating arigatou as random niceties when they could've just said thank you. It's not fancy, but it's accurate. It comes across like the translator thinking they know better than the original writer.
>>133148557
in that particular instance it does, idiot.
>>133147755
>Everyone is not capable of following, easily, a sentence with grammar (although proper) that does not flow easily.
I think this is mainly why subtitles especially, prefer to simplify grammar and rearrange to avoid needing to use conjoining conventions whenever possible. The less time it takes the average reader to read and completely understand a line of subtitles the better. Subtitles are time sensitive, not only because they can only be rendered readable for a short amount of time before moving on, but also because every moment spent trying to read or decipher the grammar and sentence flow of the subtitle is a moment spent not focusing on what is actually happening on the rest of the screen. The less time spent staring at the bottom of the screen, the better.
>>133148598
Yes, I can read. The point is, >>133146606
doesn't want strict translations, he wants something that sounds good in english. Strict translations sound more awkward than well localized translations.
>>133148598
You can't seriously think anyone who prefers strict is talking about over the top pedantic shit like that. Do you need everyone to clarify 'strict, but not totally literal'?
>>133148712
Nope, it still isn't.
Good night also has its variation across germanic languages and once again it has existed since before christianity made its way here. Compare with the German 'guten nacht', Swedish 'god natt' or Icelandic 'góða nótt'.
You're just full of shit.
>>133148721
>The less time spent staring at the bottom of the screen, the better.
That is why, although strict is a preference of mine, optimizing for sentence flow may be the better approach.
But when you have, like, 4 groups all subbing the same shit, I will go for the strictest translation. And yes, i will download multiple subs and compare them. If they translate "nee-san" as a fucking proper name or brother...
>>133148601
>It's almost like there's a middle fucking ground
That is my point.
>literal translations
>widely accepted english equivalent
A literal translation means it follows the strict meaning of the word without context.
"Good night" does not have the same strict meaning of "oyasumi", but they have the same context as nighttime/resting time salutations.
It is a localization.
>>133148557
Gods have also existed in germanic cultures long before christianity appeared, but they appropriated much of their existing language into the way they spoke of chistian subjects when it did arrive because it's the only language they had.
"God" as a word does not exist in latin, nor is their any similar word which would have made it to germanic cultures alongside the roman imperialism that spread christianity. Hell, the latin words to refer to the christian deity aren't the same as the ones actually used by its culture of origination. They just appropriated hierarchical and feudal terminology to address the abrahamic deity because the bible in translation made some vague mention of the Tetratgrammaton being a forbidden word.
Languages apply existing words to new concepts, and those new concepts alter the way they're used. News at 11.
>>133148332
>The sentences I gave as examples were fairly convoluted, and have what I would describe as low readability.
It wasn't hard. At all.
But, again, I'm not a native English speaker, which means my hardware(actually software) can decode fragmented grammar.
Hell, to my mind the two sentences are actually DIFFERENT because one implies I'm going to the store regardless
>>133148721
>>133148848
Subtitles are something "Different" as they are a translation for a different medium, with different and stricter limits.
It's a very specific situation while we were talking more generically
>>133148769
No, they aren't.
Or better: they don't have to. You can have not-awkward sentences that also are strictly translated.
Especially because "awkward" is quite subjective, while "strict" implies "correct" that is... well, much less at very least-
>>133148913
Goodnight is essentially a strict translation of oyasumi because they have the exact same meaning and use, you don't have to break words down into their components and express it literally to make it strict.
>>133149055
>But, again, I'm not a native English speaker
Ah, you'd rarely see anyone speak sentences like I wrote unless they were literally formulating what to say as they spoke.
>the two sentences are actually DIFFERENT because one implies I'm going to the store regardless
That they are, so I suppose I could change the one to "Come with me to the store?" though non-native speakers may not pick up on the implied "going with or without you" there.
>>133149566
>Ah, you'd rarely see anyone speak sentences like I wrote unless they were literally formulating what to say as they spoke.
I admit I had to re-read the sentence.
I kept expecting a comma between "I wrote" and "unless" and wondering what I was missing.
I think I took the bad habit of abusing commas, over my years on the net.
>>133149566
>though non-native speakers may not pick up on the implied "going with or without you" there.
Yeah, as a not-native I "read" it as "I'm going anyway".
I suspect it's because it lacks "WANT" as first part of the sentences, which puts emphasis on the query for the subject's will.
My knowledge of all things grammatical in the English language is next to absent, so I fear I will have to stop my ramblings here
>>133134760
Case by case
>>133149055
>while "strict" implies "correct"
What the hell? Not that guy, but that's not the connotation I have for that word at all. Even if you look at it that way, "good night" is changing what "oyasumi" actually means to something more natural for English-readers which is exactly what a localization is, it's not "correct". A strict translation would be literal.
>>133150215
A strict localization would be "oyasumi"->"(good) rest".
A strict localization is necessarily correct.
A correct localization is NOT necessarily strict
"oyasumi"->"(good) night"
>>133150049
>My knowledge of all things grammatical in the English language is next to absent
It is my experience that non-native speakers typically know the rules better than native speakers do. But the majority of native English speakers are anything but perfect, grammatically.
>>133150532
>But the majority of native English speakers are anything but perfect, grammatically.
You mean, they know all the exceptions you don't.
>>133147155
>translating aesthetics
Yeah, please never. If you want the original aesthetic, then read the original. Except for cases where the substitute is equally as good and the original had no meaning to begin with. Pic related, as the original tongue-twister would not have worked in English.
>>133150617
>they know all the exceptions you don't.
No one knows anything I don't. What are you implying?
>>133150663
Don't bimble your tucker over it, dude.
Uh-huh nice thread, will this discussion affect simulcast and the few original translations? No? Pointless, go watch anime and stop shitposting.
>>133150720
>bimble your tucker
This is an English board, anon.
>>133150770
>>133150314
Call me a retard or something but I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
A strict translation translates the words.
A localization translates the meaning.
Changing "oyasumi" to "good night" is a localization.
"Strict" implies that it does not deviate from the rules, it's pretty much literal. It's possible for a strict translation to not sound awkward but it largey depends on how similar the sentence is to an English structure, if you change it too much in order to make it more comprehensible then it's no longer "strict".
>>133150532
>It is my experience that non-native speakers typically know the rules better than native speakers do.
I'm a native speaker and will agree with this somewhat (regarding grammar at least, although I feel that the nuance of certain words is sometimes different to non-native speakers), but English translations are generally targeted towards native speakers and should at least be understandable to them.
>>133150833
He's right though, I personally use these kind of threads to shit on memesubbers but other than that it's pointless and goes nowhere.
>>133144330
It's worth reading for some new characters, and the brief-return of a beloved one, and for Octavia (my monster waifu).
>>133134760
We already had this thread a couple weeks ago. Strict translations like the kind you get from teenagers trying to scanlate manga are shit, and commie "localizations" are equally shit. Good translations balance things out and always preserve the author's voice and intent while also preserving verbiage when it's possible to use those words naturally in English.
Localized because I'm not retarded.
>>133146069
If only there was a sub group that did this, especially the
>The secondary priority should that, wherever possible, the translator should choose of the possible ways of clearly communicating that proposition the one that best matches the aesthetic aspects of the original.
part of your post. Oh wait.
>>133145062
You literally don't know the defintion of localization
in fact you know nothing about translating
>>133150853
>Changing "oyasumi" to "good night" is a localization.
Not him, but you're an idiot. おやすみ means "good night" in Japanese, just as much as it means "day off" or "rest". By your logic, two half siblings saying "We're half siblings on our fathers side" being translated into 腹違い in Japanese would be a localization. It's clear that you don't have a strong grasp on idea exchange between the two languages, so stop pretending you do.
>>133153096
The meaning is good night, not the word itself.
>>133153157
The meaning is good night? It's means that the night is good, like "こんばんは良い版ですね" Because that's what the words "good" and "night" literally mean.
Oh wait, certain combinations of words take on different meanings that their individual parts when you combine them, and you're an idiot who doesn't understand language.
>>133153262
>版
晩
Fucking IME
>>133153262
>版
Heh.
>>133153326
Yeah I saw it.
>>133153262
版 aside, that would be a strict translation of "good night" in Japanese. A strict translation prioritizes the words literally. It's a localization's job to get the meaning across to the reader with the equivalent alternative, that's what "localization" means.
>>133142779
And if you had been told it was rice with a green wrapper that smelled not unlike unwashed vagina?
>>133153096
>By your logic, two half siblings saying "We're half siblings on our fathers side" being translated into 腹違い in Japanese would be a localization.
Yes, it is a localization, and there's nothing wrong with that.
The more literal "we came out of different bellies" would be understood, but hardly anybody would say it like that.
Now...
>種違い
>half siblings on mother's side
>we were seeded from different dudes
>>133153646
No, you're confusing tranliterating (which is bad) with actual translation (conveying ideas)
>>133153716
Translation and strict translation are different. The latter will adhere to the exact words, otherwise it can't be considered strict.
>>133153817
>The latter will adhere to the exact words
Many words between particular languages have no precise partner. Even cognates are often used to refer to different things, have different uses, or have different connotations. There's no such thing as a "strict" translation.
![300px-Quine-fara-port[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/gEIaKOe.png "300px-Quine-fara-port[1].png")
>>133146069
>the pure, language independent concept, idea meaning or thought conveyed by words, phrases and statements.
>>133153646
>that would be a strict translation of "good night" in Japanese.
And "This evening is a good evening" is a strict translation of "good night" by your standard. You're completely ignoring that fixed ideas exist and can be translated between languages.
>>133153699
>Yes, it is a localization
Oh ok, so you're retarded. Thanks for clearing that up.
>>133154015
>Oh ok, so you're retarded. Thanks for clearing that up.
Nice argument, there.
>no matter how much japanese you learn, you will never be able to understand japanese media as well as a native japanese person
>>133153899
I think these are good examples of a strict translation in this very thread like this one >>133153699 but the point I'm trying to get at is that a strict translation doesn't work because nobody talks like that. Localization can definitely be pushed too far but with a language that's as different from English as Japanese is you will have to use it a lot if you want something to be understandable. And if you mean something that's in between literal and "who wants doughnuts" then plain old translation is fine. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that localization isn't as much of an extreme as strict translation, and the 4kids tactic of completely altering a concept and Commie's meme subs should have a different name (if "woolseyism" won't catch on) since it's taking the idea to an extreme that it normally isn't.
>>133154064
You don't understand language on a fundamental level. There's no reason to argue with you.
>>133154015
>And "This evening is a good evening" is a strict translation of "good night" by your standard.
But it is.
>You're completely ignoring that fixed ideas exist and can be translated between languages.
And they can. But if the words don't match up then it's not a strict translation, it's just a normal translation.
>>133154484
>But if the words don't match up then it's not a strict translation
Do you know what the word "translation" actually means? Putting the word "strict" before "translation" doesn't change the basic definition of the word translation.
>>133154484
>But if the words don't match up then it's not a strict translation
Japanese and English don't match up like that. Most languages don't. You can't find a perfect parallel in Japanese for every English word. Languages don't work like that.
>>133154484
"Good night" means "Have a good night", retard.
>>133154648
>Putting the word "strict" before "translation" doesn't change the basic definition of the word translation.
It alters the nuance. Without it, it has a broader meaning, once you add "strict" as an adjective, it specifies the function of the word to something less flexible.
>>133154660
That's my point, strict translation doesn't work because the languages are too different.
>>133154830
Yes, but a strict translation can't add words that aren't there. It's not about translating the meaning, it's about translating the words.
>>133154909
>It alters the nuance.
It doesn't change the definition to "transliteration of words". You're objectively wrong, stop posting.
>>133154909
You have no fucking clue what you are talking about. You are talking about words as if that concept is universally understood and that every language has a the same concepts that they define using words and that therefore you can translate from one language to another using those precisely defined concepts.
You can't though, because different languages choose to define different concepts and you can have a concept that it strictly defined with a word in one language that isn't in another. That's why loan words exist. That's why languages change at all.
Language exists to convey meaning, so when you translate anything, you're main purpose is to get that meaning across as best you can.
>>133154952
The meaning of words can overlap. A translation can function in several different ways, a "strict" one implies focus on transliteration. Otherwise, what's the point of specifying it over "translation"?
>stop posting
Nah.
>>133155154
>The meaning of words can overlap
Except both refer to specific things, and "translation" and "transliteration" are two very different things. You're an idiot for trying to equate them.
>>133154909
>Yes, but a strict translation can't add words that aren't there.
How much crack are you smoking? By your definition, any "strict translation" of a work in Russian, Latin, or even Spanish to English would have horribly broken grammar.
>>133155080
I'm saying that a strict translation is not feasible specifically because it's not about conveying the concept, it's about conveying the words themselves.
>>133155242
Translation is a broader word than transliteration. When you add certain modifiers to a word, it narrows down the meaning. And hold up a sec, a transliteration would just be romaji, wouldn't it? That's not what I'm talking about at all.
Sorry if I'm pissing you guys off, I really don't see what about this is so upsetting. People will say dumb shit all the time, I find it kind of comforting. ドンマイ
>>133155419
I don't think a strict translation can exist and I think many people are confusing it with an accurate or faithful translation. Honestly though, I feel like I've gotten way too pedantic at this point, and I'm not sure why I've taken it so far. Guess I got swept up in the argument.
>>133155847
>When you add certain modifiers to a word, it narrows down the meaning.
Strict translations implies using original verbiage. Strict translation does not mean forgoing grammar rules (subject, object, verb order) of your target language. That's transliteration. Again, you are objectively wrong, and you are an idiot. Stop posting.
>And hold up a sec, a transliteration would just be romaji, wouldn't it?
No, you fucking idiot. Let me break it down for you. スーパーへ行って鶏肉を買った。 is my starting sentence. A strict translation is "I went to the supermarket and bought chicken." A transliteration is "Supermarket towards went to, chicken was bought."
"Strict translation" is not transliteration. Why are you so fucking stupid?
>Guess I got swept up in the argument.
You're arguing concepts you don't actually understand.
>>133135035
I'm wasting away.
herkz and his friends are definitely here
>>133156050
>Full Definition of TRANSLITERATE
>: to represent or spell in the characters of another alphabet
>Examples of TRANSLITERATE
>The Russian letter Я is usually transliterated in English as ya or ia.
>>133156050
Maybe I'm thinking of transcription then. And you seem to be pretty invested in this so I'll just let you have it. Cheers.
>>133156050
>鶏肉
>chicken
>not chicken meat
Your "strict translation" leaves it ambiguous if the chicken you bought was dead or alive.
>>133156376
Just because he's invested in it doesn't make him right. Transliteration is transcribing the kanji in the Roman alphabet, full stop.
