How did manga become such a massive phenomenon in Japan, while in the west, only recently thanks to big budget summer movie Marvelverse have comics really started to enter mainstream?
Also why are anime so often straight adaptions of Manga, where in the west, you very rarely ever get animated adaptions of the comics? (So a Batman TV show will have nothing to do with batman comics for example)
Because western comics are shit. Do the fucking math.
>>122045933
>in the west,
While technically correct, please be more precise. You are talking about the US of A.
European countries like France and Germany have always liked comics.
Also, I'm not aware that the sales of Marvel and DC have improved a lot from the movies.
>>122045933
Manga is cheap, comics are not.
Jump is like what, 300yen?
There is no way you can beat 300yen as far as entertainment value is concerned
They killed interesting comics with censorship in the mid-50s. It took decades before the industry even started to do stuff besides capeshit again
>>122046003
They've improved a little, but not much.
>>122046051
So OP is just plain wrong about everything?
>>122046037
Pretty much. 300 yen for a magazine with a chapter each of a dozen different series, or $3 for a single issue of one title? I know what I'd pick if I was on a budget...
>>122046037
but anon the quality of the paper used on 300yen comics is like toilet paper.
>>122046111
Yet it's what sells.
Jump sells like hotcakes.
>>122046111
Great for reading on the toilet then.
>>122045933
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority
The Comic Code Authority destroyed the potential of comic books in America in the 50s.
We are still suffering from that recoil, as the industry and general public perception was built up on the twisted, corrupt standard installed to survive the code, and stuck to this very day.
Meanwhile, instead of the shitty CCA regulations in the US, Japan got Tezuka Osamu in that same era.
That's where it all diverged, anon.
>>122046111
What's your point mate?
You read it, then throw it away.
Boom, next week you get your toiletpaper back with new stories. That's the best toilet paper I know
>>122045933
>How did manga become such a massive phenomenon in Japan, while in the west, only recently thanks to big budget summer movie Marvelverse have comics really started to enter mainstream?
No idea, but I suspect it was probably because of Gundam and Yamato being animated shows that actually appealed to adults which opened Anime up to a much broader audience in Japan. It probably had less TV competition than in the US so it became a massive phenomenon. You also can't discount how popular Shojo was among females in Japan even as early as the late 60s and early 70s, as in a very, very conservative and gender strict country, Shojo was filled with very feminist views, raunchy taboo sex (Lesbians, lesbians everywhere) and romantic stories.
Again, those are just my thoughts, I can't confirm and someone else can probably expand on them.
>Also why are anime so often straight adaptions of Manga, where in the west, you very rarely ever get animated adaptions of the comics?
This is easy to answer.
Cartoons in the west are aimed at children, Comics are generally aimed at young adults, so shows are changed to make them more child friendly.
Also manga is drawn in a style based on actual TV shows and animation, Osamu Tezuka is the one that pioneered this method by studying film and animation. Manga basically are drawn as "Storyboards" which means you can easily adapt them 1:1 into a TV show, where Comics are drawn as graphic novels, where a picture is only supposed to give the general "feeling" of the a scene, not every precise action. So it is much harder to adapt into a show.
>>122046132
>>122046149
>wait, did I get that right? I need to go back two pages to che- Well, fuck.
>>122046157
I won't deny the influence Yamato had on Gundam, and Gundam had on the 80s robot shows.
But the roots go deeper than that.
Osamu Tezuka revolutionized manga, yes. But I would say it was Mitsuteru Yokoyama that had the largest impact in the anime industry, even more so than Tezuka.
Yokoyama single handedly established multiple major genres of anime. His works are responsible for both Magical Girl shows and Giant Robot shows.
>>122046111
That's why you only pay premium for the tankobons.
>>122046303
"Premium" is just 500~600 yen.
Manga is cheap.
>the west
speak for yourself.
Comics in Italy are pretty huge since forever.
Try and go in an italian house, even of normalfags, and not find a single Tex or Dylan Dog or Diabolik comic.
I dare you.
Western comics can't even come close to competing with the semen demons manga artist craft.
>>122046157
I think another thing is that people who work on manga often worked in the animation industry.
For example Tezuka worked at Toei animation, while also writing manga that he would later go onto adapt into animation.
In the US comic book writers were not working with Disney or Hannah Barbera so there was a complete disconnect from comics and animation.
>>122046336
+ no dfc
>>122046325
Actually the standard shounen/shoujo manga formats are 400yen for 180+ pages.
500-600 yen are standards for the seinen manga.
Anyways, dirt cheap, yes.
>>122046333
I fucing love dylan dog
I'm from Belgium and my comicshops has some translated once in the budgetbin, If I could read italian I would read them in italian thats how much I like them
>>122046043
ye even undead weren't allowed so they made up shit like the living vampire
he isn't dead guys he is a vampire cause .... dunno science maybe lol
>>122045933
>How did manga become such a massive phenomenon in Japan, while in the west
Japan never censored their manga and it is heavily understood that some manga are for adults. They are literally books in Japan.
In the West, due to puritanical censorship regulations aimed at stopping pornography/adult-themed comics like the Tijuana bibles, they have become known as not for adults (even when 2d art and animation with curvy women were being shown to WW1 and WW2 veterans to jack off to at the front), it has only been very lately that this kind of concept has been reversed ever so slightly.
>>122046148
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority
This was a thing? Jesus Christ, how horrifying.
>>122046157
>Shojo was among females in Japan even as early as the late 60s and early 70s, as in a very, very conservative and gender strict country, Shojo was filled with very feminist views, raunchy taboo sex (Lesbians, lesbians everywhere) and romantic stories.
It should also be noted that the big Shojo group was a group of female writers and illustrators called "Year 24" (They were founded in 1949 or the 24th year of the Showa period).
The Year 24 group in 1974 founded a convention for shojo and other female oriented erotic works called Comiket, which noone on /a/ should be unaware of. For those who don't know, Comiket is the biggest comic convention on the planet, but what makes it unique is that it generally focuses on "erotic fan works" and original manga with upcoming and starting artists to try break into the industry.
>>122046148
So are you saying that if the CCA did not exist, we would have comics that would rival, if not surpass manga today, and not just weekly superhero comic #443567533754345?
>>122045933
>How did manga become such a massive phenomenon in Japan
Long commutes and nothing to do pre-smartphone era. Once they gained popularity, it became more feasible to go into that industry which lead to more variety and snowballed the popularity.
Comics have always been small and non-lucrative. It's also nearly impossible for a single person to start up their own comic, acquire a fanbase and get picked up by a publisher, unlike manga. For those reasons, there is no variety in comics aside from cape shit and more recently feminist cape shit.
The west doesn't have train commutes. The west hates reading. Comics will never be popular.
>>122046446
Basically, that's how it would be.
>>122046111
Doesn't matter if you only read it once or twice. And be honest, how often do you re-read single issues of US comics?
>>122046336
>Western comics can't even come close to competing with the semen demons manga artist craft.
Nilo Manara says hi.
>>122046446
You don't see how these regulations crippled and change at creativity?
>>122046503
Not that guy, buy Euro comics' semen demons are miles ahead of those from the USA.
>>122045933
i think it began in the post war years, when people needed to be distracted and manga were a cheap way to achieve this
>>122046446
Likely. Obviously would be stylistically different from Japanese comics so people would still have their preferences.
>>122046437
>Japan never censored their manga
False.
>>122046445
Speaking about women in manga and anime industries, in postwar Japan, the social role of women was undergoing a massive change. The Neo-Confucian idea of a docile and subservient, loyal woman, either to her husband or her father, was directly challenged in multiple manga/anime creations as well as by the female authors of these series.
Arguably the most famous shojo manga of all time was The Rose of Versaille.
Written by Ikeda Ryoko and first published in 1972, it featured a heroine who crossdressed as a man in the Royal Guards of pre-Revolutionary France who fought, was openly admired by other court women, and broached topics like forbidden love, particularly lesbian relationships and the heroine's potential bisexual identity.
This continued the trend of shojo manga constantly pushing the envelope of what the idea of being a girl and woman was, and also continued the trend of shojo manga being incredibly far-leftist in a country that was being built up as a bastion against Communism and socialist thought, and where much of society was heavily conservative.
>>122046446
Good comics already exist beyond superhero trash. The American industry would probably be larger and healthier though, so a larger variety and number of good comics would exist.
>>122046524
>Not that guy, buy Euro comics' semen demons are miles ahead of those from the USA.
IKR
>>122046446
I can't say if American comic would have rivaled Japan's.
That's a fictional history, and Stan Lee/Jack Kirby were no Tezuka Osamu.
But it's certainly a possibility, and at the least, far better off than what we were stuck with. There's a good chance that it would have been competitive with Japan, yes.
>>122046111
Exactly, they're cheap and disposable. That's the best part. If I pay $1.50 for an issue of jump, and I lose it, there's no problem. If I pay $10 for a tank and I lose it, I feel like an idiot.
Americans actively tried to strangle comics as a medium, and it almost worked. The only remnants of old, American comics are capes which only have a niche appeal, even among Americans.
Creating something different now is essentially trying to create a new market. Web-comics, for how shitty they are, are one of the few venues for Americans to create and consume something that isn't capes or another, tired memoir about someone growing up under a tyrannical regime that all the 'savvy' journals rave about for a month or so.
Everyone above this post is wrong.
Marvel makes money off people going to see capeshit movies, not comics and DVDs.
Anime producers don't make money off their shows, they make money off merchandising.
>Manga is cheap
>Before phones there was nothing to do while waiting outside except stare into the distance and think about when you're going to kill yourself in the forest, or read a book
>Before that there was nothing other than wondering if another nuclear bomb was going to fall on your head, you need a distraction from that once in a while
>Accessible for virtually all reading levels
>Japan actually reads
>>122045933
>western comics
>limited to capeshit
The reality is that children buy comics; creepy sex offenders buy shit like marvel; everyone else just turns to the back of the newspaper.
postan some Diabolik
>>122046574
only an idiot would lose things that easily, yeah
Newspaper comics are still popular.
They've actually always been fairly popular.
>>122046539
Japanese censorship is different from Western censorship, or at least, AMERICAN. Japanese censorship is mainly on mosaics or lightsabers and you could generally write any kind of story. American censorship completely fucked up the notion of writing really adult themes for the comic readers' consumption.
>>122045933
Everything in that picture is still aimed at a small market of people. Anime is very niche in Japan.
Manga has more variety and appeal, but it's still one of those things that is mainly enjoyed by young people.
>only recently thanks to big budget summer movie Marvelverse have comics really started to enter mainstream?
It's really sort of always been like that for capeshit though. The US' main entertainment has always been television and movies thanks to them being huge established industries here. There's been tons of capeshit movies and shows over the years for the most popular heroes and that's probably what most people know the heroes from.
I think if you get an adult-targeted comic adaptation it's going to always be a movie here, cartoons have this idea that they are associated with kids in the US and thus they'll never really take off. Also Disney killed 2D here so there's that too.
>>122046503
>starts reading it from right to left
What the fuck am I doing
>>122046589
Did you even bother to read the thread?
No. You only read the OP, and make a kneejerk reaction post.
>>122046662
Look up how they tried to get Barefoot Gen out of schools.
>>122046672lolhappens to me everytime as well
>>122046650
But it's no real loss though. Unless you have really awesome stories in it.
>>122046682
Thats the one about the bombing in japan right?
We had to read it in school (translated to dutch) I kinda liked it its a nice way to teach some history
>>122046647
I love fumetti so much, would love to read agan Dylan Dog, Martin Mystere and Nathan Never.
>>122046672
Oh, that's why it was making no sense.
Fun Fact:
america was first colonized by bigots and mormons who were running FROM an England which was starting to go through Illuminism and cultural changes (see Oscar Wilde, rampant homosexuality in general and first shy inclusion of women lives in novels) and wanted to perpetrate their old and trite religious view of the world.
America was funded upon freedom from England, but also free from cultural enlightment and new moral codes.
>tl;dr enjoy your cut dicks, they were cut so that it could hurt when you fap, since it's a sin
>>122046713
are those 3 from the same serie?
Or do italians just like to name their characters that way.
>>122045933
I would like to start at comics but you can't expect me to dig through decades worth of material. I think somebody out there shares my experience.
>>122046773
Different.
As I said, fumetti was pretty huge in Italy, and it's still big.
Comic's artstyle scares me.
>>122046662
Maybe when comics first came out in the 50s and 60s, but capeshit since the 80s has been all grimdark shit with tons of violence and killing. The only thing I would say it has less of is sexual adult themes, but at the same time it still exists, it just is shown much less otherwise it will be labelled as fanservice or "pornographic", and people tend to devalue something once it gets that label.
>>122046781
I'm new the /a/ I started with the one piece manga.
And to get in to comics just go to a comic shop browse around something will spark intrest buy it or ask for some info about it
>>122046446
>So are you saying that if the CCA did not exist, we would have comics that would rival, if not surpass manga today, and not just weekly superhero comic #443567533754345?
Different Poster:
Probably not.
Problems:
* Limited commute by Train etc. You can't read while you drive.
* Would not prevent censorship of Porn.
* They could still do stupid one-character focused Shit. (Why is that even a thing?)
* Can't put out a lot of Chapters if you have to colorize Stuff.
Don't worry though:
Japan is hard at work to introduce their own quasi-CCA and ruin Manga permanently.
>>122046750
>Oscar Wilde
>1600s
Christ this is the worst pasta I've seen to date.
>>122046548
I'm assuming Rose of Versailles is where that trend in Manga and Anime has come from where you have these pretty boys with long flowing hair and are wearing 17th century aristocratic clothes for some reason and speak in really poncy accents?
>>122046822
I doubt manga will ever die as it is, it existed for far too long and is rooted in their culture.
>>122046647
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW0n7_fEZTs
HE ROBS FROM HE RICH TO GIVE TO THE GIRLS, HES ALSO A MASTER SPORTS CAR DRIVER AND A MASTER LOVER. ASK EVA, SHE CAN'T GET A GOOD NIGHT SLEEP UNLESS SHE IS COVERED IN MONEY!
>>122046750
>created by mormons
>>122046814
My autism dictates me that i need to start a series from the very beginning.
>>122046781
You don't need to read anything super old. Just stick to one-volume graphic volumes that have won some sort of recognition like the Eisner Award for instance and you'll have a good time.
Postan the best cape hero to date:
Italian spiderman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVpJnGCwlMA
(actually an ita-australian production)
>>122046857
Ye I noticed that in when I was in Japan they don't really buy magazines or newspapers to read on the train, they buy cheap mangas or those collection bundles like shonen
>>122046892
It's more engaging.
>>122046858
This was nice thank you
So what's the deal with furry cartoons and comics being so popular in the west and not in the east? Did the early popular cartoons with Bugs Bunny and shit (and their successors) breed whole generations of furries in the west? Did Disney doom us all?
>>122046916
yes
>>122046910
Ye its so cheap they often leave there magazine lfor other people to read when they finish it cause its that cheap.
I think even every hobo over there reads it cause its so easy to get your hands on it some way or another
>>122046916
If Tezuka became known for his furry porn rather than Astroboy they'd be in the same situation as us.
>>122046916
Just a really common streak of anthropomorphic animals starring (including occasionally sexualized ones).
>>122046916
>watch space jam as a kid
>dat lola bunny
>whyboner.jpg
I knew it was wrong back then and I know it is wrong now.
Fuck furries they need to die.
Homos are fine tho.
>>122046948
Also, as if it wasn't cheap enough you can buy whole series on Book-off for 1000~2000 yen, only slighthly yellowed due to time/use.
>>122046548
Shojou is a style I've never really explored. Are there any good Shojou series out there that I should check out?
>>122046982
I know to bad I can't read japanese or I would have bought so much I had to leave my clothes behing.
>>122047013
Kimi ni Todoke is pretty good.
>>122047023
I bought anyway when I was there, even though I couldn't read.
>>122046976
are you a gay?
>>122047081I'm bisexual.
>>122047058
I was doubting to do that
But I didn't
>>122046833
>I'm assuming Rose of Versailles is where that trend in Manga and Anime has come from where you have these pretty boys with long flowing hair and are wearing 17th century aristocratic clothes for some reason and speak in really poncy accents?
It was probably Genre-Defining. But the reality is probably that some Niche-Manga or other work (Doujinshi, other Media, non-published Work) thought of the Idea first that inspired the Rose of Versailles in part.
>>122046366
Tezuka was a certifiable workaholic, though.
![[UTW]_Amagami_SS_-_05_[BD][h264-720p_AC3][944C1E51].mkv_snapshot_22.08_[2015.02.25_06.14.50].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/X1I98ec.jpg "[UTW]_Amagami_SS_-_05_[BD][h264-720p_AC3][944C1E51].mkv_snapshot_22.08_[2015.02.25_06.14.50].jpg")
>>122047090
We'll go with that than.
>>122046869
>My autism dictates me that i need to start a series from the very beginning.
Those Character-Introductions are there for a Reason.
I always try to find the oldest Volume.
(Though preventing Spoilers while Browsing Manga is hard.)
>>122047131
he was talking about western comics
>>122047149
>he was talking about western comics
The same Problem still applies.
>>122047131
>Spoilers
Good thing see them as "previews".
>>122047081
Are you underage?
>>122047131
What the fuck is up with the inter-caps? Are you German or something
>>122047166
not really manga is most of the time
book1 until book 1000
comcis is more
book1 to 50
spinnoffs, remastered ,preludes , other dimensions etc.
>>122047225
>spinnoffs, remastered ,preludes , other dimensions etc.
That shit makes me mad.
>>122047356
Sometimes it makes me mad
Sometimes true pearls come out of it.
It depends
Why would anyone find comics interesting?
>heros in spandex
It's as if manga was toku shit only.
>>122045933
> whats tintin?
>>122047409
Comics are not limited to capeshit anon.
Although the majority are.
>>122047447
shit
tintin is shit
And this is coming from a Belgian
>>122047521
>Tintin
>shit
I'll fucking fight you
>>122046781
The secret is don't read capes. There might be some good stuff in there, but it's not worth the headache.
>>122047546
bring it
I'll even say this
Herge was a bigger shit then his creation
That reminds me, I used to read Archie.
I heard he got shot and killed, anyone here read that certain issue?
Why don't you read Gotham Academy?
Well /a/ this was my first time on /a/ and first thread I participated in, you guys are allright.
I had a sweet time talking to you all.
Cya next time /a/holes
>>122047599
That was the final issue of Life With Archie which was a spin-off focusing on Archie's married life. I didn't read it though, just heard about it.
>>122047705
I do. Maps is a cutie.
>>122046333
>>122046503
>>122046647
>>122046796
>>122047705
Why are comic characters so ugly?
>>122045993
>Because western comics are shit. Do the fucking math.
kek. Sandman > Chinese garbage
>>122047844
Because they look like real people.
>>122047844
>Why are comic characters so ugly?
<-------------
>>122045933
Manga is more widely accepted as a medium of entertainment for all ages. Walt Disney destroyed the cartoon and comic market for older audiences in the US, but Fox, CN, and Comedy Central are trying to bring it back
As for adaptations, Americans are more interested in the profitability of the comic franchise. The adaptation will almost never happen due to the fact that American copyright laws are applied differently to different mediums. You could get sued if you infringe on your own works by your publisher and movie director. Also there is an emphasis on continuing a series until it looses popularity and profits, once it looses those it gets cancelled with no ending.
Watchmen is better than any manga that will ever be created though
>>122048593
>muh self-criticism capeshit
Fuck off.
>>122048089
Gaiman has interesting ideas, but he is a fucking shit writer. 80% of the love for him comes from fat girls and anglophiles
>>122047599
That is a rare genre in comics, all I know are superheros and shitty porn comics but rarely are there anything else.
Maybe I read too much manga
>>122046750
Are you implying that the UK is rampant with homosexuality?
>>122046750
>america was first colonized by bigots and mormons
Mormons appeared in the 1830s, what the hell are you saying.
>murrika, muh cca
>chinks, manhua
>coleeans, manhwa
why haven't other westerners made anything that could get adapted into televised series? hell have the last two i listed gotten them?
>>122048263
>walt disney destroyed adult comics/cartoons
So tired of hearing this stupid myth. Maybe the Disney company post Walt Disney shares some blame, but Walt Disney was NOT interested in making animation for children. If you think something like Fantasia was intended for a young audience, you're hopeless.
>>122051839
You're right I blame Disney for the proliferation of fury fandom.
It's saddening. I thought the early 90s Disney animations were fairly decent when I was younger. Now I can't watch scenes without thinking how furfags were`viewing it entirely differently.
>>122048263
Eventually it did grow into that. But for a long time especially during "early Tezuka" era, manga was very much a kids thing.
Manga was also under the threat of being censored much like the CCA seal for anything with a mature theme. You have to thank Yoshihiro Tatsumi for coining the word Gekiga. Gekiga is essentially manga with mature themes but it only had that label just to be essentially be a rated T+ thing. Allowing it to still be sold.
I believe that the fact that manga was allowed under the label "Gekiga" to continue its growth into much more mature themes unlike comics and the CCA that manga became what it is today.
>>122046148
>forbidding the words "crime", "horror", and "terror" in comic book titles
>banning vampires, werewolves, and zombies
Jesus Christ how horrifying.
>>122046446
Rival maybe but surpass? Not with that $3 for 20~30 pages of content per month.
>>122047013
Try Heart of Thomas. I don't even read BL but I loved it.
>>122048593
Then you haven't read much manga and Watchmen is hardly a masterpiece. Y the Last Man is a better series imo.
>>122053489
Now now. There's no need to rub salt in their wounds. /co/'s got to live with this pain every day.
>>122046796
So, masked man in black latex is Italian equivalent of Japanese black-haired highschooler?
Discussing power levels between comic characters is more fun and more in depth than japanese media characters. I don't know why people have to choose a side. It actually makes both sides look like fucking retards. It's like arguing red vs blue.
>>122046445
So in Jinrui wa Shimashita they made Y and women the ones who resurrected the manga and convention scene and as a nod to it? That's cool.
As much as I love animu & mango, it can't even compare to Don Rosa's Scrooge.
Shit is timeless 11/10, I don't even
>>122054086
>Discussing power levels between comic characters is more fun and more in depth than japanese media characters.
I honestly don't see how with all the super situationals and Uber OP types rampant in the latter. Have you seen how often people keep trying to kill Accelerator around here?
>>122046148
> the CCA prohibited the presentation of "policemen, judges, government officials, and respected institutions ... in such a way as to create disrespect for established authority."
So satire was forbidden in the US for decades? That might explain some things, like how nowadays teen can't handle having their feelings hurt. So much for being freedom land.
>>122054636
It explains why American humor is so awful. It's either so bizarre that it offends nobody or toilet humor so bland that it's not actually disgusting anymore. They don't want to offend anyone, they don't want to self-deprecate, they don't want to be cynical.
There's a reason Brits have remained on top for so long. Satire and cynicism have kept us going.
>>122054811
It's on the same level as Jap humour, though.
also
>british
>humour
u bloody wot?
>>122054811
Probably the biggest reason is because governments and organizations use the argument 'but the children' which is honestly very hard to argue against. Its pretty much the argument to end all arguments because you dont want the next generation to end up fucked up but, surprisingly, this ended up breeding a bunch of try hard children who dont take criticism from no man.
>>122046891
italian spiderman on /a/, no i can die in peace
>>122054632
True but the list of comic characters (even in the sole dc or marve universes) that can defeat him will take up more than 10 minutes to type
>>122054632
Also, is there a whole anime forum thats dedicated to vs. Battles? I know theres one for comics (comicvine) but i want to know of theres any for manga/anime because arguing battles is fun.
>>122055773
>anime forum
Ever since I discovered 4chan, I haven't been on an anime forum.
It's amazing how something becomes obsolete in your mind in the blink of an eye.
>>122052791
>Yoshihiro Tatsumi
>>122056510
>>122052791
shit. I meant to ask what he did exactly.
![mr_brains_pork-_faggots[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/BmMgi7N.jpg "mr_brains_pork-_faggots[1].jpg")
>>122049203
>>122056594
Then you could say as much of Italy.
