Found this recently - http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/review_essays/mescallado80.htm
>"..., that one of comics’ greatest assets is its "junk" stigma and the freedom this allows the medium. But without that sense of junk-culture perspective, without the understanding that this is ephemera that only occassionally aspires to art, the desire to elevate the accomplishments of certain creators—or to exoticize manga and anime simply because they’re Japanese (and as any visit to an anime convention will amply prove, there are many American otaku who are aggressively Japanophilic) —would be too tempting."
Enlighten me /a/.
>"is x art?"
Stop. This is literally the worst question you could ever ask.
If you have to ask then it isn't, at least not for you.
>>120414972
Men are willing to admit that they are sinners, but not that they are sinning. Making anime popular is inviting the devil in.
tl;dr:
What I like=Art
What I don't like=Not Art
And so the cycle begins anew.
>>120414972
Yes, either the artist or the critic make art art.
Basically if anyone calls something art, it is art.Welcome to postmodernism enjoy your death of standards.
Yes it's art.
Stop fellating that word by the way.
>"is x art?"
please die.
>>120414972
Yes, it's art. Shitty art, to be more precise.
>>120422478
>I don't like anime
>>>/v/
>>>/b/
>>>/jp/
>>120422560
I do enjoy watching anime, but judged as an art form it's objectively shit. Literature, music, sculpture, performing arts, poetry, etc. are all better than animu.
>>120420677
>Stop fellating that word by the way.
This.
>>120422765
>but judged as an art form it's objectively shit
>I do enjoy watching anime
Ah, so you're illiterate. That explains it.
>>120414972
>Is 50 shades of gray art?
>Is Ulysses art?
Anime as a medium can be artistic just like any storytelling medium, anime in general isn't very (with the exception of graphical art)?
>>120422885
Isn't very what?
>>120422806
Art is not what you enjoy and it's not by default "good". Art can generate intense disgust and still be considered art.
>is x art
>that image
Whenever you read/see any of this, instantly report the thread.
>>120422765
>implying anything from a dying race isn't art
Ok.
>>120422943
Artistic.
It is what you want it to be.
To me it's fun. That's all I really care about.
>>120422885
>can be artistic
What?
Either it's art or it isn't faggot. There's no middle ground.
>>120422885
>Is 50 shades of gray art?
>Is Ulysses art?
By definition, they are both art. Quality of a creation has nothing to do with it being or not art.
>>120422765
>pure freedom
>combination of different art forms
>objectively shit
objectively speaking, you're a faggot.
>>120422967
Yep, completely illiterate.
>>120423037
>>pure freedom
Keep telling yourself that
>>combination of different art forms
So what? performances, cinema, architecture and a lot more combine different forms of art.
>>120423138
None of those have drawing.
Art is anything that is the creative expression of someone's ideas, thought and feelings. Anime can be art, yes, but there are a lot of anime nowadays that does not express anything significant and is solely made to sell LNs or waifu merchandise. Whether or not you think an anime is, and yes I'm going to say it, art or good art at that is completely subjective.
>>120422765
But that's wrong. Literature is all shit, music is all shit, and poetry is all shit. Anime is objectively better than all of them.See, I can also make blanket generalizing statements with so supporting evidence or reason for why I think that whatsoever
>>120422967
What are the prerequisites for something to be considered art? There are definitely some anime that have generated intense disgust in me, does that mean that particular anime was art then?
>>120423172
Actually they do.
>>120422765
>Anime tells a story through visuals and audio.
>Literature tells a story though words.
Don't judge the medium, judge the story.
There really isn't a lot of artsy Anime, but there is some, and it's generally not shit. Your perception of what anime can aspire to is probably based on shit like "Pantsu Warriors 63" and similar shit - That tells more of the kind of people that consume the content than the content that the medium can produce.
>>120423138
>performances, cinema, architecture and a lot more combine different forms of art.
And those aren't art?
>>120423213
Nope.
>>120423115
Oh, believe me I've read and actually created way more than you. My degree is proof enough of that.
You, on the other hand, seem to be a poorly educated troll.
>>120422765
You seem like someone who is only pretending to be into art.
First of all, you shouldn't mention "literature" and "poetry" as if they're distinct from each other.
"Poetry" is a subset of "literature".
Next, "sculpture" is not an art form and even then those are pedestrian as fuck, if you disregard the technical skill required to make them.Yay postmodernist criticism
"Perfoming arts" is either fucking garbage (muh so artsey postmodern performances) or a subset of either music (opera) or literature (drama)
Music is undeniably the most plebeian form of art, since it exists to please, except for relatively few exceptions.
Anime is a visual art form and superior to live-action film in theory.
Practically all anime produced, bar a few exceptions, is garbage, though.
>>120423196
>What are the prerequisites for something to be considered art?
There are literally none.
The main prerequisite is that a critic says it's art.
And I do mean "critic" in the most literal sense of the word.
>>120422998
A lot of things are art (like animu), but there is a lot of difference in how much artistic merit is in each work. Generic moeshit doesn't have a lot of artistic merit, but stuff like MEMEME, has quite a lot because of the way it challenges the typical way to approach problem.
>>120414972
What sort of nerd wrote this article
>>120423022
Yeah, and that's the root of it. Anime is art since it allow the expression of a story and thereby it is art on equal ground as any other storytelling device.
'muh art' thread #15532
When will faggots stop forcing the art card on anime, video games, whatever?
>>120423362
>MEMEME
You really should have used a better example.
>>120423373
A retard looking for validation for wasting his time watching Chinese cartoons.
>>120423423
>forcing
But there's nothing to force.
They are art, if shitty art.
>>120423234
Who said they weren't? I was only pointing out that combining different forms of art is not something unique or something that necessarily gives greatness to an art creation. You can combine different art forms and end up having a shitty product anyways.
>>120423465
>/a/
>>120423427
>It didn't underline the general paradox of calling a buttshake party "art".
>>120423423
Because we have legit issues that we wanna escape from.
>>120414972
Yes, of course its artDoesn't mean its good art though.
Worst thread on /a/
>>120423423
Never, as long as the majority of the works in each of those categories continue to be garbage rehashes that don't take advantage of the medium they're in.
>>120423373
Some fucking idiot who choose science fiction studies as hit major
>Is anime art?
/a/ becoming /v/
#AnimeGate when?
>>120423480
Art can be shitty. I don't know what your fucking point is but you seem to be confused. Anime is art. The combination of artistic elements resulting in a shitty product can still be art.
You obviously implied that performances, cinema and architecture are art so why isn't anime art?
I agree with most of the people that have posted so far.
For everything you have to take it in a case by case basis to determine if it is art or not. I would suggest art is something that gets you thinking or that leaves you in awe.
for example I think dub-step is just some greasy kids rolling there face on a keyboard and calling it music but other people love it enough for it to be considered its own genre.
I would say the same for anime there is so much shit out there that doesn't deserve to be called art but then there some shows that get you thinking.
Personally I think Mushishi is art. Every episode I take something away from the experience and the whole vibe of the show is just soothing for me.
There's no uncontroversial definition of art, so it's pointless to talk about. It has literally zero impact on anything.
>>120423603
Never because Japan doesn't care.
>>120423562
>That's not entirely situational
I really wish we could filter by image.
Fuck off back to >>>/v/
>>120423311
>"sculpture" is not an art form
>"Perfoming arts"
>fucking garbage
>Music
>it exists to please
>Anime is a visual art form and superior to live-action film in theory
Please tell me you're trolling. This is wrong on so many levels I would need to write a whole book to correct you completely.
>>120423307
And yet you have absolutely no reading comprehension in the slightest. Maybe you should actually learn shit instead of regurgitating the same shit to your teachers that they've "taught" you.
>created more
This means nothing. A fat fucking tard creates more shit than 5 good artists on a daily basis.
>believe me
On what basis, faggot? You've proven you can't even keep up with the conversation.
Enjoying something and calling it shit just means you are LYING you stupid fuck, and clearly it is NOT SHIT to you because YOU ENJOY IT.
The only art that generates intense disgust is bad art, and is incredibly easy to make. And incredibly easy to fool mentally stunted retards to think that it's somehow valuable.
It's fucking embarrassing to have to explain this to somebody who claims they have some kind of degree related to the topic.
>>120414972
>inb4 this post is art.
>>120417861
/thread
Wat
>>120423644
>it exists to please
All art exists to please.
>>120423622
All anime is art, it's just got different levels of artistic merit. Artistic merit is also a slightly subjective thing, and Mushishi gives you something and that is a form of artistic merit.
>>120423685
>but my emotions are art, anon
>>120423729
>All art exists to please.
Yeah no.
>>120423609
>why isn't anime art?
Did I say it wasn't? feel free to quote me if I did, please. I think you may be confusing posters.
>>120423786
That's it's purpose.
It's sure as hell isn't to fucking educate. Or to make you think either.
>>120423627
Art is DEEP and THOUGHT PROVOKING. FUN is not art. That's what those people actually believe.
It's definitely autistic.
>>120423644
>"sculpture" is not an art form
It's definitely not called "sculpture", no matter where you go or who you talk to.
>"I let the audience mutilate me and give them a chance to kill me"
>"I'm not famous anymore"
>not garbage
>Music that doesn't exist to please
Except for noise derivatives (which arguably exist to please) I'm drawing a blank here.
>Anime is a visual art form and superior to live-action film in theory
It is.
You can express a lot more things with drawings that with actual actors and cameras.
>>120423732
That was the gist of what I was getting at
>>120423793
Might as well say something like "not that anon."
>>120423729
>All art exists to please.
This is either bait, or a severe case of ignorance.
>>120423818
What about offensive art then? Say I draw a drawing of your waifu that's really fucking degrading, but I make it thought provoking. Because you don't find my art "pleasing", does that mean that it is not art?
When people ask "is X art" they're not exactly asking if it's art, but something along the lines of:
"m-my chinese cartoons are on the same level as shakespeare and michelangelo aren't they, p-please tell me they are, i need validation to keep on living on :((((("
People who actually like animus don't give a shit about this non-debate
>>120423923
>he's not brainwashed by the same bullshit I am, so he's ignorant
>>120423971
Offensive art is bad art. Do I really need to spell it out for you?
/a/ complains how /v/ is shit and always jumps to bait
But then when you see shit like >>120422765 you wonder what the fuck is going on
stop replying you fucking retards
>>120423818
>It's sure as hell isn't to fucking educate. Or to make you think either.
>>120423879
Sorry, I misunderstood you then.
Judging by the content of this thread. >>120417861 was the only spot on post.
>>120424058
Yeah a lot of losers tend to think it's for education or something.
>>120424022
Yeah, because by your definition anything past the romanticism movement of the mid 1800s is putrid shit.
>>120424100
>>120424133
>anime is putrid shit
See
>>120422560
>>120423873
>You can express a lot more things
First: that's just wrong. You can express different things, not more. There's a lot cinema can do that anime will never be able to match. Anime will never reach the level of detail cinema has to offer when showing a character's emotional reactions and body language, for example.
Second: since when art quality is measured in the amount of things it can express? that has nothing to do with one form of art being "better" than other.
>>120423923
Arguments are quite frequently made that anything intrinsically didactic or educational is not art. Art captures an element of living as an experential condition of the subject, it is fundamentally affective by nature. Art is defined within the aesthetic merit of a work and not its message or agenda or intent.
For example, it is intuitively clear to anyone that a formal textbook is not art (feel free to dispute this if you disagree). If you wrap the content of that textbook in pretty words and connotative metaphor, the content remains unartistic. Art is instead found in those 5-dollar words and turns of phrasing with which the denotative content is conveyed. The means of expression themselves- the method by which the thoughts or ideas are made to reach the audience- define art.
Quite a few people have already said what I'm about to say, and they've more or less been ignored because replying to shitposters and bait is more fun.
Anime is an art form. Not every anime produced achieves the pinnacle of artistic merit. There are some anime that are very artsy. There are some that are not.
>>120424185
Sure and something like Disney's Fantasia could never have been made with actual actors.
Body Language and expression are by default faulty, since you're hiring people to pretend.
>Second: since when art quality is measured in the amount of things it can express? that has nothing to do with one form of art being "better" than other.
Why would it not?
Tell me, what is the purpose of art?
>>120424216
>they've more or less been ignored
Are replies like upvotes to you or something?
IF THEY'VE BEEN "IGNORED" THAT MEANS THAT NOBODY SAW FIT TO REMARK ON WHAT THEY WROTE
Fucking get a clue how an anonymous imageboard works faggot.
>>120424197
>Art is defined within the aesthetic merit of a work and not its message or agenda or intent
That's a very classic opinion, I guess you were born in the wrong generation.
>>120424279
>Tell me, what is the purpose of art?
To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.
>>120424303
I'm replying to you so that people know I read your post
>>120424091
No worries you ended up putting what I was trying to say more elegantly
>your favourite thing isn't Dostoewsky and it should change because reasons
>>120422765
Judging by the amount of shit animu shat out, it's art already.
Now all we need is hipster critics to shut down anything that isn't made by friends, relatives, or fukkbois, and the picture will be complete.
>>120424329
Who are "you"?
I don't give a fuck who you are. Learn how an anonymous imageboard works.
>>120422765
Successful troll is successful.
>>120424313
Actually it's a radical post-structuralist opinion.
Marxism a shit, feminist critical theory a shit. Art is not inherently purposive or symptomatic.
>>120424438
Everything created by a consciousness is inherently purposive.
>>120424022
Kill yourself. You're a bad and offensive person.
>>120424438
>radical post-structuralist
It's like the whole point of having these opinions in to stir shit on the internet
>>120424185
Anime can convey emotion in ways cinema can't because it's not limited to reality. Cinema can only do what real actors can do, but animation can go beyond that. We're arguing about theory here, so you can't fall back on the huge difference in production values and cost of production between what actually gets published.
An art form that offers greater artistic freedom to the creator is better in the sense that it lets them do what they want to do instead of restricting them. The reliance on human actors is very restrictive and outright prevents doing some outlandish character types properly.
>>120424470
Presuming consciousness is not mechanistic.
The audiences perception and author's intent are fundamentally different properties, the latter is not discernible by the former (and presuming so is a fallacy of intent). There is no necessary goal carried by the aesthetic form of a statement, it is not necessary for their to be deliberate intent behind a structure of verse or layout of mise en scene for it to exist as such, and whatever the audience subject discerns from is fundamentally removed from the consciousness of the author.
If you want to be really semantic and say 'everything is purposive by definition', then I would amend the statement to be that whatever purposive nature art may contain is entirely irrelevant to the perception and understanding of it as such.
>>120424611
Actually the point is to stir shit in academia and among committees of haughty 'intellectuals' in universities. Stirring shit on the internet is just an added bonus.
>>120423667
I said anime is shit judging it from an art perspective, objectively (as much as it's possible, that is). That means coming outside of my own subjective taste and personal bias and analyzing it using reasonable arguments and valid comparisons.
I enjoy anime as casual entertainment, that doesn't mean I would exhibit it in a museum or talk about it with my peers as if it were remotely comparable to the pieces I consider masterful.
>The only art that generates intense disgust is bad art, and is incredibly easy to make.
You would be surprised how hard it is to create art that generates disgust but is actually meaningful and perdures in history, more so if you're attempting to break some convention or make some kind of statement. "Merda d'artista" or "fountain" have caused intense disgust at the moment of their creation and now they are fundamental pieces to the most recent part of art's history. Even Beethoven's 9th symphony was met with disgust at the moment of it's creation (the choir was especially outrageous) and now pretty much everyone aknowledges it as art and appreciate to some degree.
>>120424803
>Cinema can only do what real actors can do
Dude, I think you may be stuck in the 30s
the question isn't can anime be art
the question is can anime be high art.
>>120425189
It can be high art. There is not a lot of "high art" anime, but (and this varies a bit by subjective) there is some like IMO I think NGE is among the most artsy stuff I've seen in anime and in general and I've read loads of artsy shit just to be able to discuss it at uni.
>>120425389
That's not whay high art means
>>120424914
Ok, staying with your radical post-structuralist ideas, doesn't that validate anime as an artform. I mean, it's pretty pleasing to watch.
>>120425389
So failing to do a proper ending to your story because you're a depressed fuck is high art now?
Christ.
>>120425431
what does it mean?
stupid thread. Everything is art. This sentence, in which I deliberately arrange elements (words) to communicate something, is art. That doesn't necessarily give it value.
>>120424822
>The audiences perception and author's intent are fundamentally different properties
If so then any author wouldn't be able to communicate ANYTHING at all. And since that's blatantly untrue, then so is your statement.
The feelings engendered within the audience IS the author's intent. Even if there is deviation between different subjects, that doesn't mean he didn't, for all intents and purposes, "intend" them.
Of course, some no-talent retard can go, "oh but it was meant to be ugly" and, sure who knows it could have been because you never know, he could have just not cared about it and anybody liking it and so purposely didn't cultivate the necessary skills. Or some guy who happened to make something that is regarded as a masterpiece by accident and lies that it was all intended. Either way, there is absolutely no way you can tell if they are lying, so authors intent should barely matter at all as far as perception is concerned.
Nietsche himself wrote: "[I]t is certainly best to separate an artist from his work so completely that he cannot be taken as seriously as his work. He is after all merely the presupposition of his work, the womb, the soil, in certain cases the dung and manure, on which and out of which it grows – and consequently, in most cases, something that must be forgotten if the work is to be enjoyed."
PS. Not everything is "purposive", if it was, then the word, and the concept, would be USELESS to us.
>>120425189
It would be argued that anything funded through investment of private capital, produced for a general audience, used to market merchandise or produced with the intent of making money could not be art simply because the commonly accepted (though not clearly defined) perceptions of high art implicitly exclude products or commodity of economic activity.
An arbitrary standard that would narrow your available pool of anime to be considered down to pretty much independent and demonstrative projects produced for the sake of tax benefits or through government funding. Kinda silly, I think
>>120425484
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mnrHf7p0jM
>>120425189
No, in the same way that a comic or television show is not considered high art.
Most anime is targeted either to children or to young adult males of a low-status subculture staying up past midnight. As a medium, anime is inherently low art.
>>120425470
Yes, entirely. I believe it's a completely valid form of art.
>>120425484
Yep. To pull in some other art, we have Fyodor Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, that was a story he wrote when he was fucked up. Arguably his biggest success.
That Gainax ran out of $ during production doesn't reduce the value of the story.
>>120425484
>There is not artistic value to not completing something
>>120425650
>That Gainax ran out of $ during production doesn't reduce the value of the story.
it did however leave a younger me confused and then angry.
>>120425650
>That Gainax ran out of $ during production doesn't reduce the value of the story
Yes it does. Because it COMES OUT WITHIN THE STORY.
>>120425650
>That Gainax ran out of ¥ during production doesn't reduce the value of the story.
fixed that for you
>>120425700
>>120425745
Hey, you both got your "real" ending in the movie and having a separate "scrapped" ending gives it more meaning.
You should be thankful that Anno can't budget for shit, it would have given you a shallower experience.
>>120425926
>Hey, you both got your "real" ending in the movie and having a separate "scrapped" ending gives it more meaning
never watched any of the movies.
>>120425994http://www.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=207195
Sets you up for the evening then
>>120425859
Thank you, anon!
>>120414972
Why is Miyazaki so bitter?
>>120426229
People who are behind the times generally are.
>>120426123
nope
I have long disavowed that series
>>120426269
I'm not bitter
>>120426123
>OZC
>>120426408
Miyazaki?
>>120426417
>http://www.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=207195
It's the first one I found.
>>120426369
It's like you don't wanna come and join in on the fun :(
>>120426560
Not that I disagree with you, but those have nothing to do with anime being art.
>>120425994
Did you not have any access to them when you finished the series?
I'm always very confused why people have such a grudge against the TV ending when the movies are right there.
>>120426902
I refuse to watch them.
>>120426962
but the fun, anon...
>>120414972
Any means of expression through a medium is art. You wouldn't say writing is not art because of shitty fanfiction. 2/10 got me to reply.
>>120424022
>offensive art is bad art
You better not be the same person saying that artistic merit is aesthetic.
>>120427472
For what it's worth, I'm not.
>>120426962
>refuses to watch EoE
u wot?
>>120427525
Okay, in that case, I disagree with you, but not enough to start shitflinging. Have a nice day.
>>120427545
He's butthurt because Anno fiddled his wiener when he was a kid, and he never got over it.
>>120427586
>I disagree with you
Why?
Anime isn't art because saying that anime is art is as retarded as saying that anime is a "style". Anime is the word for products of an animation industry located on a certain island nation.
Animation is art, or if a general statement like that displeases you then SOME animations are art.
Anime is not a style. Anime is not a genre. Anime is not a medium. Anime is a word for a specific industry and "an industry" can't be "art".
>>120428988
Anime is the blanket term for Japanese Animated Material, and further defined by consensus. It's a medium.
>>120428988
> Anime is the word for products of an animation industry
> Anime is a word for a specific industry
Which is it? The car industry isn't a vehicle, but cars are.
>>120429049
>Anime is the blanket term for Japanese Animated Material
Yes you are correct
>It's a medium.
No you are not correct.
"live action" is a medium "watercolor" is a medium. "pen and paper" is a medium. "electronic" is a medium.
The medium anime is in is called "animation". There is nothing special about the production methods of generic anime for it to be classified as its own medium.
>film>animation>paint-on-glass animation/traditional animation/CG animation/stop motion/etc.
That's the hierarchy of animation mediums. Anime can in fact be any of those mentioned methods
>>120429067
I edited in the "products of" afterwards, and forgot to add it in to the other one
If anime's main objective is to sell, can it really be called art?
>>120429566
See:
>>120425515
Discrediting something on the grounds that it's an active part of the economic system is unreasonable, and not really a sound argument.
>>120429553
>I edited in the "products of" afterwards, and forgot to add it in to the other one
Then I say you're wrong. Anime can be or not be art, just like Bollywood movies can be or not be art.
>>120429615
It's not about it being part of the economy and making money, it's about the intention behind it. Manga, for example usually starts as means for an author to tell a story, then it becomes famous and makes money. But anime a lot of times is simply used as a device to boost the source material's sales. There's also the problem of it being an adaptation of a story already told, but that's a whole other debate already.
>>120429735
And similarly you wouldn't say "bollywood is art". It's not bollywood that's "art", it's film that is art. Bollywood isn't a medium.
Saying "anime is art" is saying "Japanese animation is art" which has the implication that animation from other countries isn't necessarily art in your opinion. That's why it's retarded to say "anime is art", and that's why it's also retarded to ponder whether anime is art or not. it's not anime that is or isn't art, it's animation.
>>120430292
and yes this is literally semantics.
Jesus Christ, I can't believe you fucks are actually arguing over this. Not even the close-minded old fart that was Roger Ebert would've claimed that anime isn't art.
>muh art
Fuck off pretentious hipsters. Stop making these stupid troll threads.
yay!
can't get enough of bitter old man-san, like, seriously
>>120430442
I bet he would have. Do you remember the absolute shitstorm on the internet when Roger Ebert said video games weren't art?
>>120430583
He was a fan of Miyazaki's and he certainly considered anime movies like Chihiro to be art. I don't believe he would've stumbled into an obvious contradiction.
>>120430724
Miyazaki's a fan of Miyazaki, at least a little bit, yet here we are
