I've been making video games for around thirteen years, and it's been my primary source of income for ten. Made a bunch of Flash games, and one Steam release so far. My projects are self funded through previous projects. One time a friend told me that he saw some people on /v/ speaking fondly about one of the games I made, which made me feel both warm/fuzzy and highly conflicted (because you guys are a bunch of god damned animals).
Game development works differently than a lot of people expect (HURR, SURPRISE). Let's talk about it, because it's interesting to me and I don't know any fucking people to talk to about this shit in real life.
what's the shittiest part
what's the steam game?
>>322321314
No hourly wage, or salary, or whatever.
We basically only get paid through releases, which means there are long periods of working on stuff for no pay and hoping that it'll eventually make money and become a worthwhile endeavor. When a game releases, it makes the most money it will make (almost always). After the release spike, games generally only make money when they're on temporary discount. Fucking stressful, at times.
>>322321746
I'm not really here to advertise, but if enough people call me a bullshitter I'll probably give in eventually
>>322320971
You think you're special? Shitloads of famous games have come out of /agdg/.
>>322322008
post your steam game so we can laugh at you and invalidate your opinion
>>322320971
Fuck you. There's nothing different about people on 4chan.
Fuck you again. There's nothing interesting about game devs.
Fuck you a third time. No one in real life wants to hear your bullshit and no one here does either.
>>322320971
Notch spent more time here than you have. Each shit faggot
>>322320971
Why do you worry if /v/ likes your game?
Are you one of them normies afraid of Anonymous or something?
>>322320971
How much time did you spend on the steam game? How big is it? How much money did you make? What user review rating the game has?
Rough numbers will do. I just want to get a picture, not to deanon you.
>>322321746
>>322322048
>>322322254
>>322322365
>>322322445
>>322322452
>>322322551
>falling for 1/10 bait
>>322320971
okey i'll bite
do you have any experience regarding making 3d vs 2d games?
what do you believe, of those two, take takes more working hours, costs more and is harder to create?
>>322322048
Not particularly special, but I do think I've been doing this stuff for longer than the average "hey everybody I'm a gamedev now" people, so maybe that's worth something.
>>322322254
Hey look another one
>>322322365
Get mad
>>322322445
Oh shit, notch did something better than me!
>>322322452
Not worried or anything, but curious about the implications.
>>322322551
About a year in development. It's a modestly sized game, particularly if you compare it to any AAA stuff. Grossed somewhere between $100k and $150k so far (again, terrible numbers if you compare to AAA games, but it was way more than we spent developing it). Slightly above an 80% score ("Very Positive," toot toot)
>>322322008
>games generally only make money when they're on temporary discoun
That's PC-Only gamers for you, bud,
Why not try to port that game to PS4. If you're lucky you'll get chosen to be a PSN+ monthly game, which means they pay for around 100K copies give or take.
You won't get paid for everyone who downloads it, but it's probably more than you would possibly make by releasing it alone(no disrespect to your game)
Countless devs and respected game journos(Jeff Gerstmann) have done this at launch and gotten a fuckload out of it(Rocket League etc)
The PS4 operates on X84 now along with hardware chosen by 1st and 3rd party developers. You should think of getting a devkit.In b4 shill. I'm just trying to help , guys
>>322322928
oh look. Another beta white cuck who thinks he's better than everyone else. Go brag about it to your wife's son.
>>322322680
3D games are absolutely harder and definitely take more time.
Stupid, not-really-helpful-beyond-making-a-point example:
2D rotations are stored as one number - the angle offset from a default.
3D rotations can be stored as either three or four numbers - three-component rotations are called Euler angles (X, Y, Z axis), which are generally easier to edit by hand, and four-component rotations are quaternions, which solve some problems that are introduced when using Euler angles. Quaternions are so unintuitive to work with that most developers literally don't know how they work, and rely completely on helper libraries.
>>322322930
This is genuinely good advice, and we're interested in porting our current project to PS4 at some point...but we'll have to see if we can do the right networking or outreach or whatever the fuck to get there first.
>>322322928
How many times in your life as a game developer did you want to say "Fuck it. It's not worth it"? Do you have a fall back strategy if your games suddenly stop selling?
>>322322928
post your game? I'll buy it on steam if its $10 or under.
>>322323421
Hit this guy up
https://twitter.com/giocorsi
He's responsible for 3rd party developer relations at Playstation.
The fucker also got Yakuza back ffs. He can do anything.
>>322323421
this is exactly why I gave up on 3D, I just can't into math so 3D rotations are impossible to me
>>322323421
okey when i asked about 3d vs 2d i didn't mean creating from scratch, but with a game engine, like unity, udk4, cryengine vs a 2d game made in Game Maker.
i imagine the 2d frame animations to look good would take quite a considerable amount of time to draw opposed to 3d animation.
>>322323583
> Fuck it. It's not worth it
I have said this a bunch of times, but I keep convincing myself that these are the moments when the other people trying to do the same shit gave up, and that not-giving-up in these moments is what makes people do stuff for long enough to get good at it.
I assume that if I actually was required to do something else, I'd just find a shitty programming job and keep making games as a hobby.
>>322323726
Okay fine, it's called "Not the Robots" and it's a stealth game where you're required to eat the furniture that you're hiding behind.
I already know that it looks like shit, so don't bother trying to rub that in my face. This is what happens when you can't afford to pay art people. Eat me.
>>322323812
Sweet!
>>322323928
Meh, I'm one of the developers who doesn't know how quaternions work. I don't even know if that diagram I posted is accurate. I just use the helper functions like a scrub. It's worked fine so far.
>>322324062
The trouble with comparing 2D and 3D animation like that is that you're describing two very different styles of animation (frame-by-frame vs tweened skeletons). FBF animation doesn't really have a common analogue in 3D, and you could spend a potentially unlimited amount of time drawing each frame. In this sense, I'm sure there are certain 2D workflows that take more time than certain 3D workflows, but given an even comparison, 3D is, by definition, more complex.
For instance, if you compare skeletal animation in 2D to skeletal animation in 3D, 2D is easier. Before you can even start deforming a 3D mesh with a skeleton, you have to give it proper topology (vertex/polygon layout, which is separate from the shape of the object). Bad topology OR bad bone weights give you bad animation, and that's before you've even made your first keyframe. 2D skeletal animation has similar problems, but there's one fewer dimension to deal with, so everything is simpler.
>>322325358
Okay, OP. I paid good money for this it better not suck.
>>322325358
>given an even comparison, 3D is, by definition, more complex.
2D frame by frame is significantly more difficult and time consuming than 3D keyframe tweening
>>322325358
>The game
Looks pretty good and at that price I'll buy it.with card money
Looks like something that would ruin The Time Crisis series.
>>322325993
You can always refund that dollar, anon.
>>322325993
>90% off
>good money
>>322325358
>90% off
damn...
>>322323130
>wife's son
>not wife's boyfriend.
baka desu senpai
>>322325358
>it's called "Not the Robots"
IIRC TB made a "WTF is..." video on that. How much do you think it helped the sales if at all?
>>322320971
>which made me feel both warm/fuzzy and highly conflicted (because you guys are a bunch of god damned animals).
We really aren't as bad as the rest of the internet would have you believe.
Anyway, how do you or your team come up with ideas for games? Have you ever gotten an idea of yours into a game?
>>322325358
Seems like the top review complains about lack of variety and longetivity. How do you feel about that?
what's your opinion on the "women in gaming"
is there really a rampant sexism in gaming?
>>322320971
OP, naturally some shitheads will be jealous of you living their dream. Ive always wanted to go into game developing aswell but wouldnt feel safe with a random income like that. My best wishes to you
The music is pretty nice, OP. The gameplay is a little simple so far.
>>322320971
>/v/ speaking fondly about a game
>>322326392
At least 30%, but not anything over that.
>>322327151
>at least, but not over
So... exactly 30%?
A decent amount then.
>>322327351
Yes.It was a Total Biscuit cancer joke
Eh I won't refund it. I'll try it some more later but I doubt I'll put too much time into it. I already have a lot of indie "rougelikes" that I never really feel like launching.
-Its okay 1.5/3
>>322325993
Thanks man!
>>322326216
>with card money
Those Steam economies blow my fucking mind
>>322326312
Yeah it's a two year old game and our publisher hates us.
>>322326392
It definitely helped, but I don't really know how much. Our publisher sent him a bunch of "gift baskets" and he covered their games, even if they were clearly shit (look up his video of "Spoiler Alert" for my favorite example - at least he's not getting paid to say it's good). I don't know if this counts as bribery or if it's a grey area, and I dunno if they still do it, but I do know that Youtube is fucking weird.
>>322326415
>how do you or your team come up with ideas for games?
I just pick any one particular detail that I want to see in a game (a situation, a feeling, a type of decision to make, a story beat, etc) and work outward from there.
> Have you ever gotten an idea of yours into a game?
I'm the guy who designs and implements the games, so yes indeed!
>>322326507
I think a lack of variety is fair - the game's quality really depends on whether or not its mechanics are working (by which I mean they're producing exciting/difficult decisions). It's kind of board-gamey in that sense.
The longevity is a weirder one for me, since I don't know how long a game is "supposed" to last. Is it based on price? Genre? I dunno. Seems like it's an opinion thing that differs from person to person. Obviously I'd always like for more people to enjoy the game for longer, but that takes moooore practice on my part.
>>322326630
I don't see much of it, and I think a lot of it was super inflated for the sake of media stuff, but I also don't work in an "industry studio" so I don't really know what the climate is like.
>>322326702
Thanks!
>>322326715
>>322327659
If you find the early gameplay too simplistic or easy, you can unlock all of the enemy/item/gamemode types immediately by punching in the Konami Code while looking at the Erase Progress screen.
>>322327915
>you can unlock all of the enemy/item/gamemode types immediately by punching in the Konami Code
A honest to God cheat code in a modern game? Holy Shit!
>>322328492
Yeah, and it doesn't even cost extra like in fucking Skate
Also that cheat code does different stuff depending on what screen you're looking at when you punch it in
>>322327659
>1.5/3
What the fuck kind of rating system is this?
>>322328685
Because I'm a shill for myself, I should probably also mention that Not the Robots contains a hidden full sequel to "You Find Yourself In A Room," which is the other game I brought up earlier (a Flash text-adventure that berates you for being a shithead). It's in the Challenges screen, either after you beat all the challenges normally or after you put in the unlock-all code
>>322328889
well it just means it scores somewhere in between a 1 and a 2 out of 3
>>322329257
> a 1 and a 2
and a zippity-bippity-boo
>>322329257
I was initially hostile to the concept because it was new, but I've begun to warm up to it and have embraced it. I shall henceforth use this for all things rating related.
>>322329536
Future will be 1 and 2, good and bad,
Ok fine you guys got me. The game I had a part of isHunie Pop
>>322329672
Well no game can ever get a perfect 3/3 because no game will ever be perfect.
>>322329536
SHILL, SHILL, HE'S A SHILL FOR THE OUT-OF-THREE RATINGS BOARD
>>322329712
Little late dude - already told them which game I made
>>322326113
>he thinks creating 3D assets is easier only because 3D animation doesn't require frame by frame skills
>>322330897
3D has more overhead with creating models but you are downright retarded if you think the actual process of animating is more difficult than frame by frame drawing
>>322331082
I thought your comment implied creating all of the assets for 3D was easier so i guess i'm the retarded one this time.
What do you think of consoles? Do you own any? Do you enjoy any of their ip's? Or are you strictly a PC/indie gamer?
>>322331082
A fair comparison to the illustrated frame-by-frame thing would be making a 3D animation where every single frame is a completely unique, made-from-scratch mesh (with unique textures, UV maps, other vertex data, etc). Honestly...I dunno which would take longer in this case.
>>322331694
I like consoles because they have their own set of benefits (fixed hardware is a big one). I have a PS3 and a 360, but I haven't played them in a long time and I haven't gotten any of the newer consoles yet (but I assume I will eventually). I hate people who bash on platforms. Like what the fuck. Why.
>>322332220
In reality people don't really hate the consoles themselves, that would make no sense.
Thy either hate the bad influence consoles have on PC releases (late, unoptimized etc. etc.) ((this can work both ways, strictly speaking, but it usually doesn't)) or people who are makes stupid claims about their consoles.
>>322331468
actually i did mean from character concept to 3d modeling to animation
vs 2d concept to 2d frame animation, combined with some skeletal 2d rigging
(someone else was replying before)
the point is i'm a 2d artist but wonder it would be better to just leave 2d all together and switch to 3d to try my hand at indie vidya.
>>322332359
Yeah, cross-platform stuff definitely gets weird and shitty sometimes. People should blame this on the developers, though, and not the platforms themselves (unless, somehow, the platform owners are nefariously encouraging the games to be shittier on other platforms??)
Warhammer: Space Marine is a SUPER GREAT example of a game with fantastic cross-platform support. That shit ran at 60fps for the whole campaign on both consoles it targeted, and the PC version was fucking dope. It all works because they put in the fucking time and managed their project well.
Also, just generally play that game if you haven't. It's one of the most gleefully fun action games I've ever seen
>>322333708
Yes, I played it two times. Liked it a lot the first time, somewhat less the second one.
>>322333834
Yeah, I think I can understand that game working best the first time you play it (I haven't played it through twice, though). The content progression is so great, though - any time I saw one of those blue upgrade pods I got super giddy (and they keep showing up throughout the entire game, with unique contents every time), and I bet a lot of that charm is lost when you already know the full set of unlocks.
Also I respect a game that has the balls to give you a pistol upgrade mid-game that has infinite ammo and trumps all of your previous limited-ammo big guns. That's a fun fucking moment
>>322334608
What I really liked about it was the feeling of weight behind your character. I was achieved through combination of animations and sound effects of walking. It's a rather short game, so I played though it in one sitting and as such I could enjoy the gradation of content. But the end was rather diappointing, since it was a shitty QTE fight.
Second time I already knew what to expect, so I just couldn't get into it as much.
>>322329672
...so... Kotaku's rating system?
>>322335831
Nah that would be Bad and Not As Bad
>>322335831
>>322335919
I thought it was Bad and Sponsored
From what I hear game development is insanely difficult, pays like shit, and job security is almost non existent.
What motivates people to do it? Are they just that stubborn? How fast do most people burn out?
This thread is great. You're a cool guy, OP.
>>322336196
They want to make others to hear the melody behind their words.
>>322336196
>What motivates people to do it?
Creating something for others to enjoy.
>>322336196
Indie developers do it because their hearts tell them tothe good ones anyway, anyone with pink hair is in it for the money
anyone hired by a AAA publisher went to college for it or is from another country and it's all they know.
>>322335831
The Good, the Bad and the Problematic
>tfw i'm a 2d animator who makes a living on youtube/porn with it
>tfw have this sinking feeling that 2d is becoming less and less viable and i need to start learning how to 3d
>>322325358
Cool, I bought that game a year ago. Not bad, never beat it though, got a bit too hard for me. Nice work, I'm a game dev myself :)
>>322336812
2d will always be a novelty that the niche will pay money for. In fact, if your work is anything above total shit quality you can start charging more as 2d becomes less common. You're in a pretty good place, all things considered.
>>322336196
> Are they just that stubborn?
That definitely feels like it's a significant part of it, at least for me.
These answers also seem good:
>>322336265
>>322336387
>>322336424
It's like any other entertainment medium. If you're shitty enough at communicating with people in real life, then you'll accidentally end up finding another way to do it instead.
If you do that for a while, you learn enough about the medium to want to continue learning about it.
People who don't need the outlet will often give up at the first sign of resistance. Other people make a few games and then burn themselves out by taking on stuff that's too big for them to finish, or by comparing their work to games made by hundreds of people, or by taking bad reviews as a sign that they suck and should quit (rather than viewing them as detailed-but-sometimes-conflicting maps of how to fix their stupid shit)
>>322336812
That sounds uncomfortable, but I agree with this:
>>322336975
hey indie devs
stop making early access pixel graphics roguelikes already
fuck, you're supposed to use your lack of constraints for creativity, not copy pasted cash grabs
>>322337152
It's a fad that just happened to come to be at the same time game making tools became more common and accessible. Don't buy them and they'll go away.
>>322337152
you mean "roguelikes"
>>322336975
I really enjoy the paper mario style/megaman legends of mixing low poly 2d/3d, so i've been doodling around in maya a bit trying to get the basics down.
Unfortunately i have no idea how to code but from what i understand unreal 4s blueprints makes it viable.
>>322337152
B-but my two favourite games this year were both early access pixel graphics roguelikes.Nuke Throne and Necrodancer are both really good.
>>322327659
>I already have a lot of indie "rougelikes" that I never really feel like launching
Are you me?
>ooh this one looks like it does X differently, mite b cool!
>buy it on sale for like $2
>never touch it because at heart it's just another fucking "roguelite"
>>322336218
>>322336947
Heyoo
>>322337152
> Pixel graphics
Yeah fuck this. I think 99% of indie game pixel artists are pixel artists because they don't want to take the time to learn more complex stuff. There are definitely some rare pixel people who are specifically into pixel art for its unique properties, though, and that can be great (SOMETIMES). In most cases, it's a super-transparent cost-cutting measure marketed as "retro-appeal."
> Roguelikes
Guilty, since Not the Robots was a rogue-lite or whatever the fuck the proper term is. Though that was two years ago, so maybe it wasn't too late yet. But maybe I'm just making excuses for my own behavior.
>Early Access
Not the Robots wasn't early access...but our next game will have to be. Don't shoot me - we're doing it because it's the only way for us to pay our art people for the rest of the development without having to sell our souls to some kind of investor. The art budget up to this point is already the most expensive thing I've ever paid for in my entire life, and it's coming very directly out of my pocket. I'm hoping that if we can approach Early Access with the quality-control of a normal release, people will be cool with it (DON'T SELL AWKWARD BROKEN SHIT FOR REAL MONEY, YOU DICKHEADS, EVEN IF YOU STRAP ON A WARNING THAT IT'S NOT DONE YET). We'll have to wait and see, though. Might crash and burn. Maybe we'll have to get normal jobs.
...At least I'm not doing all three of the things at once.
>>322337481
I fucking love the art style in Paper Mario 2.
>>322329536
The 5 star rating system is superior. 1 for trash, 2 for bad, 3 for average, 4 for good and 5 for masterpiece. With 3 stars you can't distinguish between a good game and an eternal masterpiece.
>>322338710
Learned about the superiority of the out-of-five system from these clowns
>>322338561
okey i just checked Not the Robots on steam
>90% off
is this good or bad for your revenue
Why do people say that RTS games are extremely hard to develop? Is it a question of design, that you have to make all the units and mechanics fit together into a coherent piece?
Is working in an AAA company (e.g Sony or Nintendo) better?
>>322327659
>dev for 13 years
>makes UI as shitty as the high school's "i wanna work for call of duty" guy making his first game
sad to know making money with games is still 100% luck instead of actual skill
>>322339146
Bump I want answers
>>322339026
At this point, so far into the release cycle, we pretty much only make money on the game when it's on sale - so yes.
>>322339038
I think a huge factor of it is the amount of the game you need to have implemented in order for it to be functional in a form that even vaguely resembles its actual target gameplay. RTS games are all about deep strategy and complex interplay between a ton of systems - so if you don't have all this shit working already, you can't even check whether or not the game will be fun yet.
>>322339146
I haven't worked at anyone else's studio, so I can't really say. Obviously it's going to vary wildly between companies, but the games industry has a really bad record for treating its employees like absolute shit. Horrible job stability, unrealistic commitment expectations masked as "stuff you have to do to pursue your passions and dreams, man," and so on. Or so I've heard. Can't really say anything more specific than that or I'd just be making shit up.
>>322339487
> dev for 13 years
> 100% luck
Nice try, but you kinda cannibalized your point there
>>322340076
I meant that the two don't add up. After 13 years you think that a grey screen with the same font setting everywhere is good? It doesn't look like you make games for more than 3 months to be honest. The item positioning is okay, but there's 0 contrast between them
I'm not being a cunt, it's hard to give decent constructive criticism on the internet without looking like you're angry. Remember that colors = feelings, if I'm supposed to have fun with your game why is everything grey? It makes me think it's a scary game and makes me feel down as well.
>>322340778
You're retarded mate. Design isn't everything, you don't need to overdesign (or even simply design) something if the core concept is solid.
>>322341158
You don't need in order to make something work, but if you do, your sales will skyrocket. Decent designs play with your subconcious.
Do you also think most restaurants are red "just because"?
>>322341456
>your sales will skyrocket
>just because of a colour change
Simply put, no.
>>322341552
> colours and design dont affect the way people view something
As a consumer when I see anything covered in grey I'm immediately turned off. Not the anon you were just talking to.
>>322340076
Do you think it's a good idea to fully go into this field if you don't have experience or it should be your hobby for a few years at least?
I finished university this summer and almost got a job ( I just need to visit them and sign some papers) at my local factory but I can't bring myself to go here. After being an intern for a half year I realize I hate this sort of work. I really want to have creativity and freedom and you can't have any of it there.
I have a money for ~2 -3 years in a bank and I'm engineer so I have some knowledge about coding. Would be a good idea to try vidya making now or I should went to facility and get job and make simple games as a hobby and go from here?
Sorry, If this post reads like a whiny shit, but I'm really lost.
>>322340778
Oh, I already know that the main menu looks overly plain. I know at least a bit more about UI now (including stuff I learned from making/releasing that game), but even so, I'm still not really a UI designer - I just have to fill in until I can afford to pay for one.
The design gamble with the menu is that since the whole game's art is pretty simplistic (again, no art team), making the main menu the simplest-looking part of it meant that you get some kind of visual step up as soon as you click the play button the first time. The risk is that people might see the menu and immediately go NOPE and close the game without ever playing it, but I decided that people probably weren't super likely to do that if they just finished paying for it.
Also for clarity, the thing takes place after all the humans are dead, so the dreary mood is intentional, even if it's, uh, misguided
>>322341552
This, too. I thought the time was better spent on other aspects of the game rather than perfecting the main menu. Who knows if I was right? Not me!
>>322341692
ABSOLUTELY START AS A HOBBY. Find out if you like it or not. Decide later if you want to try making money at it.
>>322341552
Please don't throw opinions if you have no idea what you're talking about.
>>322341158
You're wrong in a general sense. Design is everything. You might as well be saying ideas are more important than execution.
As for UI design, good interface design is extremely important but good luck getting anyone that isn't Japanese to believe that. Bonus points for people that confuse "good" with "pretty".
>i'm actually pretty good at coding enough to make 2D games
>tfw I suck at drawing and animating, and the friends I have who are good at it won't help me make the game I want to make unless I pay them up front
>>322341912
It's all contextual. If you're going to emphasise design then sure, you can turn it into a drawcard. However if you studied programming over design or something similar, it's not worth busting your gut over when the core is still solid.
>>322320971
What do you think of SteamOS?
>>322342593
It is absolutely worth to, specially in indie development where you certainly have contact with every area. I can't draw for shit, I'll never be an artist, but I can look at every image/asset of my game/app and tell what's decent and what should be redone asap.
You will always focus/be better at something, but it's good to understand the other areas too, as they depend of you and you depend of them.
>>322320971
Do you see any potential in developing virtual reality games?
>>322320971
Which developer do you respect more from
A) artistic
B) technical
Points of view?
>>322342335
>>322342924
You guys talk as if good design is a switch you can simply toggle on or off. No, as a programmer myself I cannot design for shit, and when I release programs myself they aren't going to be well designed, because I am not going to be bothered hiring some schmuck to just pretty up my work. If people appreciate the program they will buy and use it, designed well or no.
>>322343123
Enjoy never making money because you want to play it safe
>>322343175
That's a retarded, and ultimately wrong way of looking at it. Not all people buy purely based on design, and I'm still not playing it "safe". I'm creating algorithms and programs that fit a new niche, expanding on stuff not being attempted before, so it's not playing it safe at all.
>>322343123
>If people appreciate the program they will buy and use it
the design of the program is a huge part of the user decision of liking it or not m8
when he sees your game on the store he's seeing your logo, screenshots and a video, not your godlike programming skills
>>322343374
Your plan is flawed from a business perspective. Saying if people want it they'll get it regardlwss of design is a key indicator that you will never make good money.
Successful products appeal widely in terms of design and style. The content needs to be the niche appeal, the design needs to appeal to everybody so they actually give a shit to check the content.
>>322320971
I think you mistook this website for reddit. We only shitpost here. If you want an actual discussion you are in the wrong place.
>>322342429
>tfw used to be decent at drawing but haven't in the last 5 years because of reasons (and now I can't find my tablet so I can't get back into it like I want regardless)
>tfw really wanna make a videogame but can't do any coding because of reasons (I actually tried to learn in earnest, for years, but I have severe discalculia that makes my brain shut off the instant I need to do anything involving remotely complex mechanics, like pathfinding and physics-let alone even getting started with anything in 3d)
>Tfw just wanna make music for duders and will do so for free but nobody ever wants to take up my offers
;-;
I'm a soon to become game dev but I want to ask
How do I go about actually putting my game out
As in, should I bother with Steam Greenlight?
What's the pros and cons of the different game engines? Can you even make a game on C++?
>>322322008
>No hourly wage, or salary, or whatever.
probably because you said your projects are self funded
>>322342429
So make games that look like shit, but are fun to play. Use the fun to get people's attention. You'll end up practicing the art stuff in the process and you'll get less shitty at it - never good enough to beat somebody who's only studying that, but potentially good enough to get by.
>>322342593
I agree. Obviously, more quality in more areas is better, and will mean that more people enjoy the game, but it's not reasonable to expect MAX-QUALITY in every single aspect of everything if you factor in the process of actually having to finish the shit you start.
>>322342704
I don't have much of an opinion about it at this point. It's interesting that a potentially-big gaming platform is a Linux machine, since that could possibly end up having notable ramifications in other parts of the industry. Valve might be predicting that the current style of (fully proprietary) gaming console is nearing an end, and if they're right then they could be in a position to dominate the market even more thoroughly than they do now. Who knows.
>>322342935
I'm working on a variety pack for VR headsets now. It might be a fad, it might be a lasting thing, but in either case there'll at least be enough people to support developers like us. Compared to the desktop platform as a whole, VR has a much smaller - and more accessible - audience, but it seems like it's still big enough for our teeny-tiny-studio purposes.
>>322342986
I'd rather pick games than developers since I don't know everything that everybody made. Also I'm probably forgetting a bunch of obvious answers but whatever. Here are some.
Artistic excellence: Shadow of the Colossus (visuals and narrative), Earthbound/Mother 3 (narrative, charm), Resident Evil 4 (BEAUTIFUL and risky mechanical design), Spy Party (staggeringly smart gameplay), Super Meat Boy (level design)
Technical excellence: Crysis, Kerbal Space Program, old Halo games, Elite, Dwarf Fortress
Designer here, 5 years professional.
While I often yearn for more independence and less dealing with management, I can't say I envy your self funded position.
Interesting thread overall, do keep going.
>>322320971
im more of web developer (yet beginner i suppose) but i was wondering if its possible to make some not too big game in free time (flash or some web oriented) and be able to get it to earn money to pay off any costs of keeping it alive to learn how this work or even get some beer/pizza out of it. is this possible? hard?
>>322344764
Facebook games aimed at the right audience (women between 25 and 45) still make money if done right
>>322345036
I remember having played the fuck out of Restaurant City. EA just had to ruin the only facebook game that I play.
>>322329401
>>322343891
> because of reasons
> discalculia
Fuck you, stop making excuses and go make some more shit. Didn't you like doing it? Why not do it again? It's not like you have to start all over.
>>322344370
If you want to sell a game you should definitely sell it on Steam. If you want to get on Steam, there are three options:
1. Go through Greenlight
2. Go through a publisher/distributor
3. Wait until Greenlight is phased out and anyone can upload to Steam
I assume that by "the different game engines," you mean "Unity vs. Unreal." Unreal has more powerful rendering tech and you can access the full source code. There are probably various other neat benefits, too, but I haven't used it because I've been a Unity dude so far. Unity games take more work to make them look snazzy and modern, but the tools are very generalized and they don't seem to be designed with any particular type of game in mind. You could make the same game with either engine. I'd mostly recommend UE4 to people with a substantial pro-level team, and I'd recommend Unity to literally anyone who wants to make a game.
If anyone here is versed in Unreal, though, I'd love to hear some insider opinions about it.
You definitely CAN make a game in C or C++...but I don't know if you'd really want to in 2016. Look up "Handmade Hero" for a COMPLETELY COMPREHENSIVE look at what it takes to implement a game from scratch in C.
Spoiler: On day 205 (with roughly an hour of development per day), he worked on "Picking Entities with the Mouse."
>>322344740
It's definitely a powder keg of stress. The ability to work on whatever the fuck I want, though, is pretty great...but then, with that, you get more stress, because if the project turns out to be a bad idea, there's nobody else to blame. When people think of "being your own boss," they don't usually think about the times when you fucking hate your boss.
>>322345669
How good are the chances to get through Greenlight nowadays? Also how long does the process take?
>>322345669
>because of reasonsI used to draw art by commission, which usually ended up being furry porn. If you didn't know, that's an absolutely soul-crushing task if you aren't a furry and want to be seen as a serious artist someday (having furshit on your CV when you want to do matte painting is kind of... yeah no) and it dealt serious damage to my desire to keep drawing for any reason
>discalculia
but I'm serious. I tried coding and I just can't do it sufficiently enough.
>stop making excuses and make more shit
I'm not making excuses. The only thing I've given up on is those two things, I still make music. I'm intending to start releasing music fully this year, possibly even make a Patreon so I can dedicate myself to it fully. I was just complaining that none of the devbros I offer to make music for seem interested;-;
>>322346081
>having furshit on your CV when you want to do matte painting is kind of... yeah no
Can't you just use a pen name?
>>322345895
dunno, I have a friend who's had his game up on Greenlight for about a month or so now (maybe 2?) and he says he's ranked at about #400 out of several thousands in terms of getting greenlit. So it just depends on how much your game cashes in on fads at the time I guess
>>322346136
Obviously, but doing commissions can be a full-time job if you're not one of the artists that can auction a trace for $1000/ea and that leaves you with nothing on your real CV. Plus it's just a bad time for everyone involved because furries are insufferable autists
>>322346338
can't you just pay to get your game on steam right away though?
>>322344764
It used to be comically easy to make money through Flash game sponsorship (think of all the Flash games with the "Armor Games" or "AddictingGames" logos at the start), but that bubble has likely burst. There are probably still reasonable ways to make money with web games (>>322345036 has a good point, though I have absolutely no idea how many facebook games completely flop). I haven't worked on web games in about three years, though, so I'm not gonna be of much real help here.
>>322345895
It gets easier all the time, because Steam is trying to phase Greenlight out, but they need to gradually ramp up the server load so they don't blow everything up. I hear a lot of folks saying they got through in a few weeks, but I don't really know how common that story is overall. We got lucky and didn't have to do Greenlight for our next game because we're working with Valve's VR headset and already had a previous game on the store, and maybe just because I sent the right email or something.
>>322346081
Gotta keep trying! You'll find a collaborator if you keep searching. I beliiieeeeve
>>322346476
Not that I've heard of
>>322344628
Do you have any thoughts on Undertale?
>>322346476
A Greenlight license is like $100 and you can put as many games as you like on Greenlight with it
A direct publishing license is WAY more and has way stricter stipulations regarding how much you can (and need to) sell in order to keep your game published on steam
>>322343123
>as a programmer myself I cannot design for shit
Then you're a shit programmer making shit games. A good game is a well designed game. A good program is a well-designed program. User interfaces are just another language, one used to communicate with the user.
>>322345669
I can see that being a problem, certainly. I couldn't trust myself with no second opinions around to check my ideas against.
>>322346689
I liked it a whole lot, like pretty much everybody else. I appreciated the jabs about how game design has changed ("can't make mazes anymore, need fucking puzzles everywhere now"). The two "moral choice" style moments at the end actually made me stop and think for a bit, which is waaaay more than I ever expect out of those types of scenes. The funniest fight for me was the two beefy armored dudes who admit to each other that they're gay during combat. Generally reminded me of Earthbound, which is always a plus.
>>322347168
The second opinion comes when the anxiety starts talking for you!
Is University level math used in games programming at all?I thought the captcha asked for calculus, but it was actually cactus
>>322320971
>/v/ speaking fondly
Fondly or about fondling?
Because /v/ hates games and is hot and bothered 24/7
>>322322008
Why do you feel the need to lie on the internet?
Only self-published games rely on sales to make the dev money, game devs are payed by the publisher in advance to make the game and payroll is part of that budget.
>>322327915
I feel bad for buying this on it's ridiculous discount. Anyway, good luck with whatever you're doing now
>>322323421
>hurr devs don't get x underlying concept
Yeah, because they're game devs and not software engineers specializing in 3d graphics engines
Your posts are ignorant as fuck
>>322347351
>I thought the captcha asked for calculus, but it was actually cactus
What's the difference?
Oh hey, its that game. I remember I picked it up a while back because it had Linux support, but got distracted by other games. Guess I'll try it out again.
>>322347292
Any advice you could give for someone used to teams of 10+ people looking to make a game alone/in a small team of like 3 people?
>>322347292
Whats your opinion on simple game making programs like rpgmaker and gamemaker?
>>322326715
I'm no designer, but what's the thought process behind making an interface like this? I mean, you've just got things thrown around the screen, with clashing styles and no sense of identity.
This is compounded by how the game behind it is filtered and grainy, like a surveillance camera, but somehow that aspect has only received a passing mention in the UI.
Looking at this picture, I have no idea how this game works. Is it just something you don't consider a priority?
Do you bend over to "gaming journalists" so your game gets a higher score?
I was going to pirate your game, seed it, get friends to do the same then tell everyone here about it just to rustle you but it seems you're way ahead of the curve. Well played good sir
>>322333708
And then they fucked it up by not having dedicated servers, the latency was horrible because it's not COD that has people playing it everywhere and died 1 month after release.
>>322347940
His games are mostly unknown, so obviously not.
>>322348027
so are a lot of indie games like Gone Home, Cibele, Sunset and all the other trash games that get praised by "gaming journalists"
>>322347493
He just said they don't rely on publishers. And I understand why, publishers are meddling assholes. They don't just give you their money for free, they want to make sure their money goes towards making something that will make them more money, which usually means the game must be aimed at the biggest markets with the most casuals
>>322348148
But you know about those though.
>>322347351
It depends on what kind of game programming you're doing, but you definitely don't need super-fancy-math to get going. Basic linear algebra and trig can take you a loooong way. A general understanding of some calculus concepts definitely helps, but I'm not doing integrals to solve problems or anything.
>>322347391
Probably. I assume I just haven't been lectured about the specifics enough to understand it yet.
>>322347437
Yeah I always get those mixed up
>>322347493
Oh, it was kinda dumb to call them our publisher, since they didn't really fill that role - we struck a deal with them that went like this: They give us a sales slot on Steam (since they already had extra app tokens or whatever they're called), and we gave them 10% of the game's profit.
>>322347494
Don't feel bad, discounts are the only time the game makes money anymore!
>>322347662
I'm only talking about quaternions specifically. David Rosen is one of the indie-sole-programmer-heroes who's making an engine from scratch and he never learned quaternions. I've literally never encountered a game dev who was able to explain how quaternion rotations work internally.
>>322347818
Start small. Learn and accept your limitations. Find clever ways to work around them so you can still get the stuff you liked about the bigger team.
>>322347823
Mostly, they're cool in their ability to get people interested in this stuff. On rare occasions, a notable game gets made in one (Hotline Miami is the only real example I can think of right now). I like it when people make games.
>>322347939
That surveillance-view is only while you're inspecting a level before you start playing. Pic is the interface during gameplay.
>>322347940
No, I'm not that smart
>>322348008
Yeah I don't mind piracy at all - go for it. Maybe you'll like it and decide to buy it later. Maybe you'll like it and never pay me shit. I hope you have some fun
>>322348152
Protip to anyone who is faced with this: Show them data to the contrary.
Niche markets are viable, if you make a game that monetizes them well and hard.
A small audience that pays more > a large audience that pays a little.
People can argue gut feelings, artistic visions and opinions.
If someone tries to refute numbers you can prove are right, you take it up with their boss, get them fired and take their job.
>>322348439
The real issue with a small team is losing out on all the professional art and code talent
>>322348439
how do you manage to keep sane when dealing with GUI, animations and other doesnt-really-add-anything-but-takes-retarded-amounts-of-time stuff?
>>322348439
Currently looking to get into 3d modeling, what software do you guys use? Maya keeps fucking up on me and won't install. Blender is also pretty shitty.
I can tell this guy is a real dev because of the "don't give up" mentality and by saying it's not about luck.
However, you'll do yourself a huge favor if you pair up with someone who can make good looking art.
>>322348898
3dsmax is the way to go if you don't want to deal with Blender
>>322346737
I don't make games you retard. Also, design isn't a part of programming I hate to tell you. Most programmers are terrible at design, surprise surprise.
>people outside of the industry trying to talk shit
>>322349062
How well do they look into the student shit? I'd like to get it for free but am not currently a student but was like 2 years ago.
>>322349228
>design isn't a part of programming
I'd hate to be on the same team as you.
>>322349243
No clue, sorry
>>322348012
Ouch. I never actually tried the multiplayer for some reason.
>>322348027
Yep, this is a better answer than mine.
>>322348520
This is good advice. Data trumps not-data.
>>322348697
That's only a problem if your team is both small and also not made of professionals
>>322348889
> How do you keep sane when dealing with...
You don't.
>>322348898
Get the fuck out of here, Blender is fantastic. Its interface isn't consistent with any other software (which is lame), but it's very consistent with itself (which is great). Immensely powerful software.
>>322348906
> pair up with someone who can make good looking art
Yep, I do that whenever I can, and it's what I'm doing with the money I made from the last game.
>>322349243
If you're selling the work you're doing, don't use any fucking pirated software for it. Not worth the risk. Any other time, it's all fair game.
>>322349305
I think a lot of this argument about design is coming from people using the word differently - it seems like some people are using "design" to refer to visual stuff specifically, and other people are using it to refer to more generalized constructive processes
>>322349305
Yeah yeah, you sure are clever for stretching the english language in order to act superior to others.
>>322349305
Having worked for three companies, two of them major global successes, I can confirm that most designers do not program at all and none of them will write a single line of code for the final game.
Programmers also sure as hell won't be designing content, features or economies.
Designers are expected to understand what can and cannot be done, maybe prototype on their own, maybe draw little pictures of stick men to explain ideas.
Programmers write code
Designers design games
Artists make pretty pictures through some wizard bullshit
QA stacks every physics object in the game in a pile and then reports the top one fell off the skybox
Producers ask if we could double the size of the game halfway into development
>>322322365
your post made me audibly kek
>>322348439
I was mostly asking about that math thing because I'm studying math right now and have no idea what I want I to use it for.
I also have to learn programming in the math course, so that might help.
i wish i could work under a good artist for free just so i could git gut myself :(
maybe i should move to poland
>>322349491
The problem with professionals is that they tend to be
1) already employed
or
2) capable of making stuff of their own, and thus busy with their own pet projects
I believe you OP.
btw guys i'm a famous female porn star, but i won't tell you which one. I am tho, i swear it.
>>322348439
>Maybe you'll like it and never pay me shit. I hope you have some fun.
The attitude we all need in our lives.
>>322349769
Oh, oh - if you're already interested in math, you'd likely find your own ways to incorporate the concepts into your designs, just by the nature of picking stuff that you want to work on. This might mean backend tech that's using cool tricks, or it might mean gameplay that's built around dealing with mathematical concepts in some way. Doesn't matter! Both are cool!
>>322349674
I don't have any way to back it up, but I firmly believe every part of this.
>>322349804
You have access to the internet. Go practice!
>>322349813
Yep, pretty much
>>322349926
You missed the part where we were already talking about the game
>>322350061
Glad to be of service
Okay god damn, it's 10AM. I need to clock out.
Had fun in here
9/10
would lose a night's sleep again
how do i motivate myself to slap together prototypes of game concepts I want to fuck around with
fuck how do I even begin
I don't even care about making money or any shit I just want to see if this mechanic works or is even fun.
Learn Unity????
Fuck about with game maker????
I need controller support for it to even pan out since the controls rely on using two analog sticks and L/R triggers
Forgive me if this was asked already
How do you feel about the broad gap in AAA games in regards to marketing budgets vs. development budgets?low reply count over 7 hours? This is a clear indication of a quality thread, thank you based indie for answering our questions and thanks fellow anons for not being shitheads
>>322351184
Unity has the most documentation and support
If you're lazy and willing to spend, the Asset Store lets you cut out MASSIVE chunks of development.
Get the Playmaker plugin if you suck at coding.
>>322351184
(not op)
as far as i know undertale was made in game maker and it has controller support so i guess it works with the engine
>>322350483
Any chance you guys are looking for music?
electronic producer here
>>322351202
Not OP but the other dev guy here
This is a product of the market and times. There are SO many games coming out every single day these days, you need to pay out the ass to keep anyone's attention on you. You are competing with not only every other game, but also with every other entertainment product out there. You need to convince people your $60 game with a 8 hour single player campaign and a vestige of multiplayer is worth more than 60 $1 games that last an hour each, or the 10.000 free games released every single day on the playstore and app store, let alone existing free giants like LoL, world of tanks, etc.
Your AAA game is shit, and the only reason people put up with it, is because you paid $50.000.000 to shove it down everyone's throat for 6 months before release.
>>322351184
Game Maker is actually really good for 2D prototyping
>>322351592
I think he went to sleep, and I don't think this thread will survive until he wakes up again.
>>322350483
If you could convince yourself 13 years ago, what would you make him do differently?
>>322351921
No worries, I just arrived in this thread, very neat to hear his thoughts, I'll be monitoring throughout the day in case he comes back or makes a new thread.
if OP reads this, I'm looking to chat if you're interested.
>>322351730
I didnt read the whole thread but noticed he replied to a couple other devs, but if you have any published work I'd like to see it. I just like seeing what /v/irgins make
>>322351184
Not exactly sure what you mean about "motivating yourself".
If you're looking into game development as a hobby, then start off by making very simple things and see if that inspires you to make bigger, more complex things. A hobby isn't something you should "force", just do what you enjoy doing.
>>322349674
>QA stacks every physics object in the game in a pile and then reports the top one fell off the skybox
I sense you slightly bitter. but just a little bit.
>>322352049
lol that first sentence is a mess. I just woke up, forgive me.
>>322352049
Most of the recent stuff is mobile.
I also worked on a browser MMO thing called Gunshine (later Zombies Online) but that should be offline by now. The people I made it with went on to make Clash of Clans.
>>322352105
Actual QA report I got: "If player idles in level for 6 hours without doing anything, the helicopter damages itself awarding free points"
Other highlights from fellow designers I've seen include "Player can clip through top of level and fall to their death if [box from start of level} is carried [for literally 2 hours] to [highly specific part near the end]" and a personal favorite "If the player clicks on this pixel on the banner, the game rickrolls you. Please remove."
I had to look that last one up. It actually happened.
>>322352468
>favorite "If the player clicks on this pixel on the banner, the game rickrolls you. Please remove."
Seems like an intentional feature some code smuggled in.
Your QA team seems very dedicated.
>>322352758
They are wonderful people.
>>322352468
>went on to make Clash of Clans
Ouch, I won't dig any further there. Wat was the browser MMO like? Was it one of those textbased ones that got so popular?
Hey I've got an Android phone, what silly apps did you work on?
>>322352468
some of the QA shit I've seen posted online is ridiculous. who thinks to do this shit
>>322352468
>If the player clicks on this pixel on the banner, the game rickrolls you. Please remove.
oh man, thats great.
>Player can clip through top of level and fall to their death if [box from start of level} is carried [for literally 2 hours] to [highly specific part near the end]
QA must be no fun at all. Got any more
>>322351429
It was made in game maker, you can see it using cheat engine.
>>322352951
It was cyberpunk diablo
My mobile stuff includesNibblers, Angry Birds Stella, Angry Birds Friends, Angry Birds
>>322355742
You damn diabolic punk!
>>322320971
>I'm a game Dev
I'm batman. Don't ask for proof though
>>322320971
>Nearly 200 replies
>No proof
>>322356646
>Didn't read the thread
Faget
>>322356348
>>322356646
You're a little late with these posts considering he's already left and gone to sleep.
>Claims has made a steam game
>backpedals
>>322352468
>Most of the recent stuff is mobile
>>322356740
>believing he was a real dev
>>322356830
There were multiple developers posting in this thread. The mobile dev is a different one from OP.
>>322356931
Did I say I believed?
>>322325358
Bought your game cause you seem like a swell goiym
