>Reminder that the original Shepard dies at the beginning of ME2, the rest of the franchise features a CLONE as the protagonist
Top jej
Reminder, Marauder shields was the hero we deserved, he tried to stop us, but we wouldn't listen.
>>345399204
You just fucking reminded me I had a marauder shields song back in 2012
I was pretty autistic
But it's not. He's brought back to life, just like how a person is revived in real life. He was just brought back from a state that normal/real medical science wouldn't be able to do.
I've only ever played like 2 hours of Mass Effect 2, never played any of the others, and even I know that.
>>345399443
>Thinking this is how it works.
He died anon, go check out the ship of thesseus paradox if you dont know what I mean
You can't clone Cipher or morality anon, it's the same person.
>>345399443
Miranda says explicitly YOU ARE NOT A CLONE
>>345399204
Jesus christ you just reminded me of Marauder Shields and now I'm giggling like a retard
All fucking memes aside, what the hell Bioware
Why was he there
Why did you just put one lone Marauder Shields right there at the very end dude oh my lord
>>345399849
Exactly, so you're agreeing with me.
Were you trying to quote >>345399719
??
>>345399443
But he's fucking d-e-d son, "revived" is just a fancy way of saying an exact clone was made, the atoms which composed his body originally were lost to space, and in ME there is no such thing as a "soul", when shepard died his "soul" didnt go to another plane of existance, and so it also didnt returned to his body when he revived.
Youre implying that when people die in ME they just enter some "hybernation" state waiting to be revived, no anon, his brain died (and possibly more than half of it was lost in space) there is absolutely no way to bring that back, once they "reboot it" it will be a new shepard
>>345400072
Fortunately we the player of the game don't see reality the way Shepard see it.
>>345399849
It doesnt matter what Miranda says, thats as stupid as an in game character trying to justify a plot hole. Miranda is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER written by a human. Like bioware can cry and pout all they want about how shepard is totally not a clone, but it doesnt changes the fact that the thesseus ship paradox is a real thing and shepard is the perfect example of it
>>345400251
Exactly which is why we know he's a clone while he and everyone else in the game think he's the original shepard
>>345400316
So what you're saying is "fuck everything about the plot, he's dead because of some concept that isn't even relevant to the discussion"?
Reminder that Miranda has a thick fucking ass. I mean actual thick, not those fat weebs you fuckwads like to post.
>>345400506
No im saying that this is fucking bioware which is known for writing extremely silly shit that cant hold its own weight when questioned.
This being one of the examples for that, Shepard died and the shepard you play as in ME2 and ME3 is a clone, you have to accept this as the fact it is, anon.
>>345400316
>Miranda is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER written by a human
so is everyone and everything that happens in mass effect
>>345400547
>>345400547
Literally gave me an Aussie fettish for years. I
>>345400785
Anon, you're on the same tier as MGS "he died on the tanker" faggots.
>>345399049
Nah, they never cloned her.
>Even if your body could be revived your mind would just create a clone of you to inherit it
>>345400038
I was, in fact, agreeing with you.
Spaceship of Theseus then?
There is literally no right answer to if it is Shepard or not, it's an opinion
>>345399443
Miranda says they go to painstaking lengths to insure his personality is not altered and he is the same person. If that's not something you have to do with clone I dont know what is
>>345401070
No because Snake literally doesnt dies in the tanker, his conciousness never abandoned his body.
Shepard's conciousness died, and the very atoms he was composed of were dispersed, the new shepard is a clone, his atoms are new, and his conciousness is new, because there is NO WAY to preserve a conciousness after death without a concept of "soul", which doesnt exists in ME
>>345402306
Miranda can say that they injected him with doritos to make his aim better, doesnt changes the FACT that she's trying to justify shitty writing.
Like have you ever read about Bioshock infinite plotholes? Its the same shit here, they try to explain them in game to wrap things up, but people obviously know that its simply not a valid explanation because it doesn't holds up.
>>345402306
It would also be something you have to do in brain surgery. You know that can alter your personality, right? But you'd still be the same person.
desu what made me mad about the whole "shepard was revived" thing was that by crossing that line, theres really no viable excuse to say that ANY other person in the universe cant be revived, including the cerberus' bad guys.
Especially considering how a large cost of every single medical process is the research part, once the research is complete and the process is known, production costs drop exponentially.
>>345402615
His brain died dude, the tissue deteriorated, you dont just pump him with blood and expect the same ole shep. They litetally tell him he was fucking engineered to be the same way he was. He is a clone, get fucking over it. Maybe go read Frankenstein to realize you are a fucking retard.
>>345399049
When will Bioware learn to animate?
>>345402691
it still took like three weeks of round the clock medical procedures performed by a team of the best doctors cerebus could afford
even at an exponentially reduced cost, it was still a procedure far beyond the budget of all but the most filthy rich
>>345403234
I actually did not know his brain was wrecked. Because in that case, you are right. It's a different individual with the same memories.Is Frankenstein worth reading? I never did.
>>345402316
any too objects that are indistinguishable from each other are in fact the same object
if they recreated shepard's consciousness with 100% accuracy, it's the same shepard
>>345403821
Exactly, and who are the most filthy rich? The powerful people who would merit a revival in case of getting killed
>>345404039
So, atoms are all the same atom? Please respond.
>>345404039
So you mean clones?
He's a clone, you just confirmed it.
Thanks for proving my point
>>345403234
>His brain died dude, the tissue deteriorated,
They make a huge point about his brain being intact because of the helmet though.
Also he doesn't fit the definition of clone, at all. Shepard has their original body repaired. There's also the fact the clone in Citadel points out they had to have knowledge implanted into them they weren't made with it.
The fact that it's stupid doesn't mean it didn't happen. Cerberus states that they brought Shepard back from the dead, they recovered his body and did future science on it until it came back. You see it in the opening video thing, they inject space goo and his blood cells and organs come back to life.
That's what happened. You can't argue that, that's what the story says happened.
>>345399049
reminder that the entire cast of star trek has been murdered by the transporters and clones with implanted memories live out the episodes
>>345404039
So how'd they know what nerves were connected to each other and the relative strength of those connections?
inb4 "muh genetic mememory" this isn't Dune and this isn't Asscreed, and I don't recall ME making mention of genetic memory so unless it's specifically mentioned it's safe to assume it doesn't exist in that universe.
>>345403847
They way the events are chronicled make it really interesting to read and the story itself is classic horror suspense. Its a good introduction to classical writing styles as it is an easier read compared to most.
>>345403234
New to the thread but wasn't his tissue, despite being dead preserved by the frozen planet that he the normandy landed on? The planet was an ice planet, and assuming that enough of his tissue was intact for them to just 'inject' back into life (they show it in the intro of ME2) Wouldn't it be at least feasible to think that his brain cells and structure were intact as well? (Think of cryo-freezing) If that were the case couldn't they just use their science fiction technology (basically magic at this point) to revitalize the dead, yet still intact brain cells as they did with the other cells in his body? (They literally show them inject a serum and watch the cells spring back to life) The arrangement and connection of the brain cells, to put it really simple is what makes you who you are. I wonder if it's possible that if you took dead, yet intact brain cells and were able to "revive" them if the memories and personality would be the same, thus being a true resurrection.
>>345404539
>no access to air
>brains fine though
They also show in the opening scene the brain being repaired and I believe Miranda is referring to his brain stem being intact allowing the nervous system to respond to their rejuvenation techniques.
>>345404539
When do they say that though? Because I remember Jacob explicitly saying that when they brought him he was no different from a gibbed corpse from doom (When they brought you you were nothing but meat and tubes).
That must have been some damn good helmet to keep his brain intact. A ship with a power source thats like 10 times more powerful than any nuclear reactor we have today exploded right next to him, its already ludicrous that there was anything left to salvage.
That just shows how shitty bioware writing is.
>>345404552
What OP is trying to say is that the whole "future science thing" is basically just cloning, they made a clone of shepard because the original died and there is no way to bring people back from the death without a connection between a spiritual and physical plane. We obviously know theres no spiritual plane on ME universe so resurrection is impossible. Only cloning allowed.
>>345405505
But he's not a clone, because clone implies a separate being. Shepard's more like a zombie than a clone.
>>345405120
You should go read about the mind-body problem. Descartes and Plato are great opposing reads regarding it.
As for the ice planet shit I honestly completely forgot about that but they do say they tried hard to not alter his personality so I dunno man.
>>345405120
When did they say that the normandy and shepard fell on an ice planet? Theres no way in hell a corpse could remain intact after making an orbital drop, it would have been burned down to a crisp. He was found floating in space.
Also, thats not how cryo freezing works, if you just throw some shit at a bunch of ice, the ice will eventually penetrate every cell, pretty much stabbing them. Its why we havent nailed cryo freezing yet, because we dont know how to stop the ice particles from stabbing every cell to death.
>>345405657
A clone is a separate being, so this fits the bill.
Parts of shepard's body were obliterated, others simply went missing because of drifting in space and others broke down beyond repair because of exposure to vacuum.
This shepard is composed of almost entirely new bio material and has a new (if identical) consciousness meaning he is a clone
>>345405505
>That must have been some damn good helmet to keep his brain intact. A ship with a power source thats like 10 times more powerful than any nuclear reactor we have today exploded right next to him, its already ludicrous that there was anything left to salvage.
But we actually SAW Shepard die. They didn't die because of the ship exploding, they died because they got knocked free of the Normandy and asphyxiated because their air tank was damaged. The suit protected some of their body on reentry, enough for them to be revived.
>>345399049
Don't talk shit about clones
>>345405795
When I played it I took the lines about personality integrity assurance as Cerberus wanting to make a point that they didn't make a brainwashed lackey but they actually have the real shepherd working for them legit. I feel like it was more of them telling Shep, "We revived you but we didn't change you, what you feel is because of who you are, not because of our tampering"
Shepard was like a rusted out scrapheap found in a barn and then "restored" to showroom condition.
Is he the same person? That depends if you believe in a soul, because the body&brain are almost entirely new
>>345405946
Im not talking about dying, im talking about the fact that his corpse was next to a fucking nuclear bomb x10, do you think there was ANYTHING left of the people who were standing at least 3 km from the hiroshima bomb?
![x91[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/AJg76QO.jpg "x91[1].jpg")
Commander! Commander, you have to wake up! Humanity needs you. It's all a lie, you're trapped in a simulati-
*feed cuts to static*
Shepard stumbles out of a pod in a spacestation located in the Andromeda galaxy
>>345406147
https://youtu.be/xoFrh_e5cWY?t=6m57s
We see the ship explode and THEN we see Shepard flail around, still relatively intact, drifting towards the planet.
>>345405939
There's actually DLC for ME2 where you visit the planet itself and visit the old normandy pieces and actually find your old helmet. It's weird to hear that you hadn't played it. If a planet doesn't have much of an atmosphere (feasible for that planet, not conclusive though) an object wouldn't burn up. Burning up is from the friction of a body passing quickly by particles in the air, causing friction and heat. No atmosphere= no heat.
>>345406139
Ship of Theseus.
One of my favorite things to ask people.
>>345406534
>>345406552
>Shepard fucking falls FROM SPACE into an ICE PLANET with an atmospheric pressure of 0.85 atm and 0.83 surface gravity.
Not even fucking exodia would be able to stay intact after a drop like that, the friction would have desintegrated him instantly. Even if he miracously was not desintegrated, the atmospheric pressure alone would have crushed his body entirely. They wouldnt have recovered a helmet, they would have recovered some random frozen goo
>>345406101
Thats a great fucking point man I had never even considered that. Regardless I believe any sort id tissue restoration on the brain would require some serious adjustments but I do not know shit about those things.
>>345406821
>They wouldnt have recovered a helmet, they would have recovered some random frozen goo
Well you can fucking go down and walk around the planet and PICK UP your helmet, so I don't know what to tell you, friend.
>>345405939
add: In terms of the freezing damage, I'm aware that it happens but we're talking about sci-fi resurrection (or in the case the OP is trying to make, cloning) This implies a higher degree of scientific capability beyond what we have. One argument made has been that his atoms are being 'lost' to space. What I'm spit balling is that perhaps the deep freeze, while under normal circumstances, destroys the cell in an non recoverable way (in a modern sense) it also keeps the cells together in a frozen state, (It's broken but all of the pieces are still there) What I'm suggesting is that because of the freeze, the cellular structure was damaged beyond standard repair, but all of the materials are still in their general locations. Cerberus then works its techno, multi trillion credit magic on the cells and brings them back to life, repairing them as well. In that case it would be the original Shepherd. The problem is that we are trying to wrap our modern heads around science fiction that takes liberties. So the best we have is speculation.
>>345405505
>Because I remember Jacob explicitly saying that when they brought him he was no different from a gibbed corpse from doom (When they brought you you were nothing but meat and tubes).
Yeah and Jacob is the foremost expert of biology in Mass Effect.
There's an audio log where Wilson the head of the Lazarus Project says they got lucky with the brain. I'm not looking through videos of the mission hoping to find somebody who get's all the audio logs either.
>>345407062
I dont think you're understanding this.
Yes, you can pick up your helmet.
Your helmet which dropped from fucking orbit, its still intact.
Thats the definition of shit writing, friend. Like in Heavy rain when the shopkeeper gives the fat guy a box full of fucking evidence from the origami killer, but for some fucking reason he didnt gave it to the cops during or after the whole kidnapping ordeal.
Its called shit writing because it makes no sense, all logic says that the entire corpse should have been obliterated like 10 minutes before hitting the fucking surface, or completely splattered upon hitting.
There was no space magic protecting this corpse.
>>345406821
dude, masseffectfieldslmao
kinect barriers are a hell of a drug
>>345407375
But we're talking about a natural freezing process. The cryofreezing part wasnt done by cerberus, it was done by the laws of physics in the universe, so space magic does not applies
>>345407818
I was using the cryo-freezing as a kind of reference in the original post. In hind sight I should have probably used freezing meat in a freezer or finding ancient frozen remains on Earth as a better example.
>>345407646
Yeah, it IS shit writing. But that's what happened. No matter how stupid the logic is, you can't say it didn't happen because that's how the story played out. So anything about Shepard being a clone or their body being unrecoverable doesn't matter because Bioware used the power of stupid writing to put Shepard under Cerberus control.
You can't argue against it, because it HAPPENED. We all know it SHOULDN'T have, but it did.
>>345407714
His suit was broken though, its the entire reason why he died, his suit had a rupture so he asphyxiated in it.
Even assuming his shields were still intact, the shields only protect you from a handful of shots in game. Falling from orbit is a process that can take anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes, during which your body could reach temps of 1000 degrees (enough to melt anything) surely thats hotter than any laser projectile could hit people for, shields wouldnt stand that shit.
Also at the end of ME3 when shepard and anderson go into the teleporter, theyre extremely fucking injured and it wasnt even an orbital drop
>>345399049
The whole franchise had an opportunity to do some really interesting, even in the second game it felt like the choices you make are desperate band aids that are never going to stop anything.
And then the third one rolled out and you were blowing up reapers left and right in a typical hollywood blockbuster fashion.
At that point I just tried to fuck everything up just because.
I killed Mordin while he was mere feet away from the switch that will fix his life's mistake, I killed Wrex, I turned my back on the Geth and so on...
If I have to play through this I might as well fuck it up as much as I can.
who cares about being a clone
>actually surviving the impact of re-entry onto a planet in only your space suit / general armour
>>345408008
What really gets me is that there is no reason for Shepard to even "die" in such a way since the situation is written in and written away in the intro part of the game.
They could've thought of a million different more logical ways for him to die and be revived and yet they picked the most retarded one.
>>345408405
>We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.
if they had lived up to the standard Soverign set, ie it took a massive fleet to stop ONE reaper, it would have been something special
instead he comes off now as that blowhard who was really into making them seem like hot shit
>>345408416
This thread is starting to turn into people just yelling out opinions without considering that maybe Bio-ware is making up the tech as it goes. Bio-ware, whether you think they are hack writers or not are the final word on ME lore. They haven't explained everything so you can't simply write things off when you don't have all the info. For all we know the suit had kinetic shields and a heat shields that were still active despite the suit breach. It's always possible that a high tech suit (whose capabilities are not fully explained) could have separate systems that work independent of one another. Maybe his body survived the impact because the suit still had enough juice in it to do so. We can't make conclusive leaps in one direction or another because Bio-Ware simply didn't explain it all. Best we can say is "maybe this is how they think reality works"
>>345408716
It's true to space opera tropes though.
Even in the times of Lensman books no matter how hot shit the aliens are soon enough you'll find a weapon that can fuck them up, even if it means flinging planets, suns and galaxies around.
>>345408416
tell that to the covenant
It's kinda sad that the entire plot was resolved through talk no jutsu/UNDERSTANDING ending.
>>345408645
I guess the only reason to let player change his appearance.
Also can you change sex?
What if romance Ashley in first game as male and then turn yourself in female, is there a ingame reaction?
>>345399443
Can normal medicine make two bodies?
>>345409175
>hype to kick some reaper ass in ME3
>the one time you fight one all you do is shoot radio waves at it
>no final boss fight at all
I mean fuck. Saren and the baby reaper weren't challenging in the slightest, but at least it was SOMETHING.
>>345407646
>There was no space magic protecting this corpse.
But there was.
Mass effect field is literally magic.
>>345409894
MARAUDER SHIELDS
I think ME3 was the first bioware game without a final boss. They have a rich history of final bosses
>>345408175
>>>345407714
>Also at the end of ME3 when shepard and anderson go into the teleporter
Never happened
>>345399049
Literally only ME1 was any good though, so who cares? Only losers and lamos like those two other ones.
Every seven years all the cells in your body have been fully replaced. You've died several times before.
>>345400316
Shepard didn't have all his components replaced though. Many parts of him are still the original him. They just hooked up machines to him to make him work. It's no different to someone getting a pacemaker to keep their heart beating right.
>reviving a corpse means that person is a clone
You people are basically saying that everyone dies whenever they go to sleep and are replaced by an exact clone when they wake up.
>>345414893
Being dead and in a billion pieces is a bit different than going to sleep.
>>345414893
Technically true. The whole teleportation paradox applies here too.
When you sleep your consciousness and mind stops and the next day a new consciousness the same as before begins.
Even years after arguably one of the greatest failures in video game storytelling ever, people still give a shit about these games. Amazing.
>>345415153
>When you sleep your consciousness and mind stops
But it doesn't, you incredible moron.
>>345417168
>going unconscious doesn't make consciousness stop
top kek how did you even learn to use a keyboard?
>>345405939
>When did they say that the normandy and shepard fell on an ice planet? Theres no way in hell a corpse could remain intact after making an orbital drop, it would have been burned down to a crisp. He was found floating in space.
You people are arguing with someone who literally has not played the game. I hope you all realize this.
>>345414893
We are talking reconstructing a body and through unknown means reinputting all previous memories, etc back to it in the same way it was before. Might as well be a clone. Doesn't really matter.
>>345417743
No, but your mind doesn't stop, dipshit. You have more brain activity while asleep than awake.
Does it hurt to be this retarded?
>>345417828
>b-but if I change what they said to something else my argument is right
Pathetic.
>>345418123
>>b-but if I change what they said to something else
>>345415153
>When you sleep your consciousness and mind stops
Tali best girl.
